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  #1   Report Post  
NWM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Average price of new gas furnace installation

Well the service guy said the burner had too much rust and showed me
that the burner wasn't burning all the gas. Consequently, he turned
off the gas to the furnace and told me the furnace could blow up if I
tried to light it up. He could replace the burner, but this company
stopped making furnaces 20 years ago, so parts would be difficult to
get and the total cost to replace the burner with labor would amount
to 500-1000.

Well the estimate for a new furnace(80percent) with new digital
thermostat, and the surrounding ductwork and 2 man all day labor
amounts to $4750, 10 percent off for cash. He said the price of steel
had gone up dramatically the last 2 years. Now I will get a couple of
other estimates.

Is this a typical price? Archived messages range from under 2000 to
above 4000. Never saw a price as high as my estimate in the archives
even for a 90 percent model. A 96 percent model will cost over 2000
more.

Anyone have experience with Home Depot's referral service? I normally
check out the Better Business Bureau for companies that are
(preferably)members and don't have any outstanding complaints. Better
yet, members who don't have any complaints at all in the past 36
months. I wonder if Home Depot screens their referrals. I ask, because
maybe Home Depot gives deals to the companies that they refer.
  #2   Report Post  
NewGuy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Paid 4100CA$ for 94.4% Carrier Infinity in Toronto. That is about 3300US$.
As far as I know furnace cost about 2000CA$, other is installation. 2 guys
spend 4 hours putting new PVC pipes, removing old furnaces and installing
new furnace. As you are probably from New York, prices there might be
higher, but I belive estimate you got is too high.

Regards,




"NWM" wrote in message
news
Well the service guy said the burner had too much rust and showed me
that the burner wasn't burning all the gas. Consequently, he turned
off the gas to the furnace and told me the furnace could blow up if I
tried to light it up. He could replace the burner, but this company
stopped making furnaces 20 years ago, so parts would be difficult to
get and the total cost to replace the burner with labor would amount
to 500-1000.

Well the estimate for a new furnace(80percent) with new digital
thermostat, and the surrounding ductwork and 2 man all day labor
amounts to $4750, 10 percent off for cash. He said the price of steel
had gone up dramatically the last 2 years. Now I will get a couple of
other estimates.

Is this a typical price? Archived messages range from under 2000 to
above 4000. Never saw a price as high as my estimate in the archives
even for a 90 percent model. A 96 percent model will cost over 2000
more.

Anyone have experience with Home Depot's referral service? I normally
check out the Better Business Bureau for companies that are
(preferably)members and don't have any outstanding complaints. Better
yet, members who don't have any complaints at all in the past 36
months. I wonder if Home Depot screens their referrals. I ask, because
maybe Home Depot gives deals to the companies that they refer.



  #3   Report Post  
Martik
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"NWM" wrote in message
news
Well the service guy said the burner had too much rust and showed me
that the burner wasn't burning all the gas. Consequently, he turned
off the gas to the furnace and told me the furnace could blow up if I
tried to light it up. He could replace the burner, but this company
stopped making furnaces 20 years ago, so parts would be difficult to
get and the total cost to replace the burner with labor would amount
to 500-1000.

Well the estimate for a new furnace(80percent) with new digital
thermostat, and the surrounding ductwork and 2 man all day labor
amounts to $4750, 10 percent off for cash. He said the price of steel
had gone up dramatically the last 2 years. Now I will get a couple of
other estimates.

Is this a typical price? Archived messages range from under 2000 to
above 4000. Never saw a price as high as my estimate in the archives
even for a 90 percent model. A 96 percent model will cost over 2000
more.


I received a quote of $1900CAD (1600US) to install a Frigidaire G6RA 72k or
96k 80%upflow. No ductwork required, just a plenum transistion of 15in for
the shorter furnace. I priced the furnace at approx $710CAD so the
contractor is making around $900 for a day's work. Here's the link for the
furnace: http://www.frigidaire.net/Literature/973a.pdf

The 92% model was about $350CAD more but the contractor wanted $900 more to
install it. I don't think this is fair since the only additional work is to
run 2 PVC/ABS pipes outside and run a condensate line to the floor drain.



  #4   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
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Default

Get another tech out, did he clean the burner.

The BBB only takes complaints if they mediate the case, you wont find
true info with them. I hired a guy I found out to late that he lost 15
small claims cases in 3 yrs, none were listed in the BBB. The BBB is
honestly a joke. Court records are better and your city lisencing dept.

What size unit, brand, model, Goodman or Lennox, how hard is the
instal, how much duct work, etc.etc , nobody can say.

I had a price of 2700 for a Carrier infinity 93.5% with VS motor,
but easy instal, Again get prices and another tech to ck your unit

  #5   Report Post  
Walter R.
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Six years ago I had an intermittent problem with my gas furnace.

My service guy, recommended by friends, said the heat exchanger had a crack
and that he would have to shut down the furnace for safety reasons (carbon
monoxide). Since the heat exchanger was no longer available, a new furnace
would have to be installed for $ 3000.

I turned the furnace on and used a $ 20 carbon monoxide monitor from HD.
Zilch CO.

Then I called my public utility because they perform free safety checks on
furnaces. The could not find anything wrong with the heat exchanger. They
fixed a lose wire from my thermostat.

Six years later this furnace is still working great.

Don't trust a word a politician or a HVAC "technician" utters. They get a
commission on furnace replacements, not on tightening a screw on a
thermostat.

Walter
The Happy Iconoclast www.rationality.net
-

"NWM" wrote in message
news
Well the service guy said the burner had too much rust and showed me
that the burner wasn't burning all the gas. Consequently, he turned
off the gas to the furnace and told me the furnace could blow up if I
tried to light it up. He could replace the burner, but this company
stopped making furnaces 20 years ago, so parts would be difficult to
get and the total cost to replace the burner with labor would amount
to 500-1000.

Well the estimate for a new furnace(80percent) with new digital
thermostat, and the surrounding ductwork and 2 man all day labor
amounts to $4750, 10 percent off for cash. He said the price of steel
had gone up dramatically the last 2 years. Now I will get a couple of
other estimates.

Is this a typical price? Archived messages range from under 2000 to
above 4000. Never saw a price as high as my estimate in the archives
even for a 90 percent model. A 96 percent model will cost over 2000
more.

Anyone have experience with Home Depot's referral service? I normally
check out the Better Business Bureau for companies that are
(preferably)members and don't have any outstanding complaints. Better
yet, members who don't have any complaints at all in the past 36
months. I wonder if Home Depot screens their referrals. I ask, because
maybe Home Depot gives deals to the companies that they refer.





  #6   Report Post  
HaHaHa
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Well the service guy said the burner had too much rust and showed me
that the burner wasn't burning all the gas.


Get a second opinion, and don't tell the second tech anything about what the
1st tech said or did.


  #7   Report Post  
HeatMan
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Walter R." wrote in message
...
Six years ago I had an intermittent problem with my gas furnace.

My service guy, recommended by friends, said the heat exchanger had a

crack
and that he would have to shut down the furnace for safety reasons (carbon
monoxide). Since the heat exchanger was no longer available, a new furnace
would have to be installed for $ 3000.

I turned the furnace on and used a $ 20 carbon monoxide monitor from HD.
Zilch CO.


Did you happen to read what the alarm rating on that POS carbon detector
was? Like all of them I've seen at HD, it probably won't alarm until it
hits 45 PPM for 30 minutes....

Then I called my public utility because they perform free safety checks on
furnaces. The could not find anything wrong with the heat exchanger. They
fixed a lose wire from my thermostat.


Yeah, and they knew better? I followed a utility guy once that said the
Tstat was bad. It turned out that the power was off to the furnace...

Six years later this furnace is still working great.


And you may be wondering why your kids are always sick....

Don't trust a word a politician or a HVAC "technician" utters. They get a
commission on furnace replacements, not on tightening a screw on a
thermostat.


Not always true.

Before I went into business for myself, I refused to work for companies that
paid a parts commission to the techs. Now, if I see a problem with a
furnace that would be a major repair, I show the homeowner the problem. I
also use a Co detector that is calibrated 2X a year. I'm a pro at what I do
and it's obvious the guy you had out wasn't...


  #8   Report Post  
Tekkie
 
Posts: n/a
Default

NWM posted for all of us....

Well the service guy said the burner had too much rust and showed me
that the burner wasn't burning all the gas. Consequently, he turned
off the gas to the furnace and told me the furnace could blow up if I
tried to light it up. He could replace the burner, but this company
stopped making furnaces 20 years ago, so parts would be difficult to
get and the total cost to replace the burner with labor would amount
to 500-1000.

Well the estimate for a new furnace(80percent) with new digital
thermostat, and the surrounding ductwork and 2 man all day labor
amounts to $4750, 10 percent off for cash. He said the price of steel
had gone up dramatically the last 2 years. Now I will get a couple of
other estimates.

Is this a typical price? Archived messages range from under 2000 to
above 4000. Never saw a price as high as my estimate in the archives
even for a 90 percent model. A 96 percent model will cost over 2000
more.

Anyone have experience with Home Depot's referral service? I normally
check out the Better Business Bureau for companies that are
(preferably)members and don't have any outstanding complaints. Better
yet, members who don't have any complaints at all in the past 36
months. I wonder if Home Depot screens their referrals. I ask, because
maybe Home Depot gives deals to the companies that they refer.

If you researched this on the MANY search engines available you would know
that NO ONE can compare prices over the Internet.

Our crystal balls are all broke because WE AREN'T THERE!

Do the research, then get the quotes. That is what you will pay.
--
Tekkie
  #9   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"NWM" wrote in message
news
Well the service guy said the burner had too much rust and showed me
that the burner wasn't burning all the gas. Consequently, he turned
off the gas to the furnace and told me the furnace could blow up if I
tried to light it up. He could replace the burner, but this company
stopped making furnaces 20 years ago, so parts would be difficult to
get and the total cost to replace the burner with labor would amount
to 500-1000.

Well the estimate for a new furnace(80percent) with new digital
thermostat, and the surrounding ductwork and 2 man all day labor
amounts to $4750, 10 percent off for cash. He said the price of steel
had gone up dramatically the last 2 years. Now I will get a couple of
other estimates.

Is this a typical price? Archived messages range from under 2000 to
above 4000. Never saw a price as high as my estimate in the archives
even for a 90 percent model. A 96 percent model will cost over 2000
more.

Anyone have experience with Home Depot's referral service? I normally
check out the Better Business Bureau for companies that are
(preferably)members and don't have any outstanding complaints. Better
yet, members who don't have any complaints at all in the past 36
months. I wonder if Home Depot screens their referrals. I ask, because
maybe Home Depot gives deals to the companies that they refer.


This is Turtle.

First : You need a service man that will clean all that rust out of there and
see how it burns afterwards. I can clean one in about 45 minutes and put it back
together and this is not a major job. I think the service man wanted to sell a
new furnace and too lazy to clean it. I would call another service compant and
tell them to give it a good cleaning and you might be surprised to see what
happens. Rusted up burners is a common problem and i see them rusted up all the
time. I clean them out and they run fine. The only reason I may say change the
burners or a new furnace would be the burners have big holes rusted through them
and letting the gas not come out of the louvers of the burners. If they are not
rusted through. Clean them out and be happy.

Now to a new furnace and the price. I could not say on price for i've not seen
the job and know what area of the country you live in. Now i will say this by
seeing the prices you got. I would get a second opinion or bid on this job.

Well as i said here , Get a service company to come and be Real about fixing it
and Clean the burners and fire it back up. Now if you want a new furnce get you
one but if you don't mine have a old one that works good. Get a respectiable
service company to come really Clean it.

TURTLE


  #10   Report Post  
HvacTech2
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Hi NWM, hope you are having a nice day

On 18-Nov-04 At About 05:32:25, NWM wrote to All
Subject: Average price of new gas furnace installation

N From: NWM


N The thing is, I had to spend 140 bucks just for this guy to show up
N and look around. He said it would take 4-5 hours to take out the
N burner and replace it at 97 bucks an hour labor.ANother company I had
N considered using said they would also charge just to show up and
N one hour labor minimum.

I cannot see what you have there but saying 4 or 5 hours to change or clean
burners is way to much. you may want to ask friends or neighbors who they use
and are they satisfied with them then call that company and get their
opinion.

-= HvacTech2 =-


... "If you were going to shoot a mime, would you use a silencer?"- s.w.

___ TagDude 0.92á+[DM]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++
spam protection measure, Please remove the 33 to send e-mail


  #11   Report Post  
NWM
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Well as i said here , Get a service company to come and be Real about fixing it
and Clean the burners and fire it back up. Now if you want a new furnce get you
one but if you don't mine have a old one that works good. Get a respectiable
service company to come really Clean it.

TURTLE


The thing is, I had to spend 140 bucks just for this guy to show up
and look around. He said it would take 4-5 hours to take out the
burner and replace it at 97 bucks an hour labor.ANother company I had
considered using said they would also charge just to show up and one
hour labor minimum.

Problem is, I don't have the knowledge to know if it is just rust or
not. I am at their mercy and I can't keep calling numerous companies
because all charge a service charge just to show up I assume.

BTW, this is a 100k btu unit. Don't know if the others who quoted
prices have 100k units, or if that would be the reason for the high
price even on a 80 percent unit.

So no one here in the US used the Home Depot referral?

So just so I don't sound like I am completely clueless( which I am) to
the next service guy, I should say the following?

1)Hey, I noticed the flame is not burning as much as it used to, and I
am worried about an explosion There is tons of rust and this thing has
probably not been cleaned out in 20 years. So can you clean this and
how long and how much?

Or on the phone when making the appointment, tell them:

2)My burner on my gas furnace is rusted and I need it cleaned out. I
wonder if you can clean out all the gunk so that the flames underneath
burn as brightly as they used to.
Anyway, won't any service guy just try to sell me a new
furnace?Especially for one that looks all rusted and from a company
that no longer makes them?

Are there generic burners that can be replaced in an old defunct
model?

Any suggestions? I am assuing I SHOULD not ask for a someone to come
and give me an estimate or they will just try to sell me a new furnace
as with this guy.

Last week, I cancelled a service call and estimate from another
company. I assume I should not recall them since they know I was
asking for an estimate for a new furnace.

Thanks for all the info.

  #13   Report Post  
Gary R. Lloyd
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:32:25 GMT, NWM
wrote:



Well as i said here , Get a service company to come and be Real about fixing it
and Clean the burners and fire it back up. Now if you want a new furnce get you
one but if you don't mine have a old one that works good. Get a respectiable
service company to come really Clean it.

TURTLE


The thing is, I had to spend 140 bucks just for this guy to show up
and look around. He said it would take 4-5 hours to take out the
burner and replace it at 97 bucks an hour labor.ANother company I had
considered using said they would also charge just to show up and one
hour labor minimum.

Problem is, I don't have the knowledge to know if it is just rust or
not. I am at their mercy and I can't keep calling numerous companies
because all charge a service charge just to show up I assume.

BTW, this is a 100k btu unit. Don't know if the others who quoted
prices have 100k units, or if that would be the reason for the high
price even on a 80 percent unit.

So no one here in the US used the Home Depot referral?

So just so I don't sound like I am completely clueless( which I am) to
the next service guy, I should say the following?

1)Hey, I noticed the flame is not burning as much as it used to, and I
am worried about an explosion There is tons of rust and this thing has
probably not been cleaned out in 20 years. So can you clean this and
how long and how much?

Or on the phone when making the appointment, tell them:

2)My burner on my gas furnace is rusted and I need it cleaned out. I
wonder if you can clean out all the gunk so that the flames underneath
burn as brightly as they used to.
Anyway, won't any service guy just try to sell me a new
furnace?Especially for one that looks all rusted and from a company
that no longer makes them?

Are there generic burners that can be replaced in an old defunct
model?

Any suggestions? I am assuing I SHOULD not ask for a someone to come
and give me an estimate or they will just try to sell me a new furnace
as with this guy.

Last week, I cancelled a service call and estimate from another
company. I assume I should not recall them since they know I was
asking for an estimate for a new furnace.

Thanks for all the info.


Ask them if their service people get commissions for selling furnaces.
Commissions to service techs give the contractor plausible
deniability. He didn't tell his service techs to rip off customers. He
just simply gave them an incentive to do so.

Avoid like the plague any company that advertises cut-rate furnace
cleaning specials. These are sales companies disguised as service
companies.

Once you find a company that doesn't lure its techs over to the dark
side with commissions, just tell them you want your furnace cleaned.
Do NOT mention explosions. That was just a scare 'em and sell 'em
sales tactic.

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software
http://www.techmethod.com

  #14   Report Post  
NWM
 
Posts: n/a
Default


First : You need a service man that will clean all that rust out of there and
see how it burns afterwards. I can clean one in about 45 minutes and put it back
together and this is not a major job. I think the service man wanted to sell a
new furnace and too lazy to clean it. I would call another service compant and
tell them to give it a good cleaning and you might be surprised to see what
happens. Rusted up burners is a common problem and i see them rusted up all the
time. I clean them out and they run fine. The only reason I may say change the
burners or a new furnace would be the burners have big holes rusted through them
and letting the gas not come out of the louvers of the burners. If they are not
rusted through. Clean them out and be happy.



The service order invoice says the following

"Reported to job site. Found furnace to be very rusted out. Also found
burners to be rotted. Burners will not fire(well this is completely
inaccurate because they did fire). Gas is building in heat exchangers.
I shut off gas to unit and informed customer not to run unit."

So can you or any tech tell if the burners are rotted or have holes in
them without cleaning them first? Are small holes ok, or just the big
holes the problem?

Thnks
  #15   Report Post  
Gary R. Lloyd
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:52:32 GMT, "Walter R."
wrote:

Don't trust a word a politician or a HVAC "technician" utters. They get a
commission on furnace replacements, not on tightening a screw on a
thermostat.


That's a pretty broad statement. I was a service tech for over 35
years, during which time I never got a commission on anything, and I
tightened a lot of screws.

BTW, I agree about the politician part.

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software
http://www.techmethod.com



  #16   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Call for a furnace cleaning , nothing else . Tell the new tech you are
keeping the unit, and just want it clean.

You said it isnt burning " brightly" do you mean it isnt a bright
yellow flame, or blue flame. Yellow is poor-cold-rich combustion, blue-
white is correct. The gas is in the chamber, right, and gets burned,
eficiently or not the only way you are in damger is if the exchanger or
unit is leaking Co, burnt gas, into the house. You did not say your
heat exchanger was cracked or Co readings were high.

4- 5 hrs to clean a burner sounds like bull. You got conned by a
salesman. So what if you have to get 3 more techs to inspect it. You
will find an honest one. If the Doc says you are dying you get a second
opinion, you need more bids anyway, your price sounds way high

  #17   Report Post  
Jeff Cochran
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Guess you never checked prices locally with other contractors, huh?
Although that would make sense and give you the only valid comparison,
installing a gas furnace in my home would run about three times your
estimate. Hope that helps you sort out your pricing dillema.

Oh, by the way, we have no natual gas, so the estimate would include
running a pipe 3/4 of a mile to my home. I assume that compares with
your situation...

Jeff

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:05:54 GMT, NWM
wrote:

Well the service guy said the burner had too much rust and showed me
that the burner wasn't burning all the gas. Consequently, he turned
off the gas to the furnace and told me the furnace could blow up if I
tried to light it up. He could replace the burner, but this company
stopped making furnaces 20 years ago, so parts would be difficult to
get and the total cost to replace the burner with labor would amount
to 500-1000.

Well the estimate for a new furnace(80percent) with new digital
thermostat, and the surrounding ductwork and 2 man all day labor
amounts to $4750, 10 percent off for cash. He said the price of steel
had gone up dramatically the last 2 years. Now I will get a couple of
other estimates.

Is this a typical price? Archived messages range from under 2000 to
above 4000. Never saw a price as high as my estimate in the archives
even for a 90 percent model. A 96 percent model will cost over 2000
more.

Anyone have experience with Home Depot's referral service? I normally
check out the Better Business Bureau for companies that are
(preferably)members and don't have any outstanding complaints. Better
yet, members who don't have any complaints at all in the past 36
months. I wonder if Home Depot screens their referrals. I ask, because
maybe Home Depot gives deals to the companies that they refer.


  #18   Report Post  
Jim Elbrecht
 
Posts: n/a
Default

NWM wrote:

-snip-
So just so I don't sound like I am completely clueless( which I am) to
the next service guy, I should say the following?

1)Hey, I noticed the flame is not burning as much as it used to, and I
am worried about an explosion There is tons of rust and this thing has
probably not been cleaned out in 20 years. So can you clean this and
how long and how much?


Or you could try the truth. [it usually works for me]

'I have an old burner with problems.. . . . [name the brand & age if
you can--that way, if they have a choice they can send you the old guy
that knows that model instead of the new guy right out of school]

'xxxx company looked at it and they think I need to replace it. I'd
like your opinion. [this leaves them an opening to badmouth their
competition, praise them, or just mumble something.. . . pay
attention. ] I know it at least needs a good cleaning. What do you
charge to clean or at least give it a good looking over? '

-snip-
Anyway, won't any service guy just try to sell me a new
furnace?Especially for one that looks all rusted and from a company
that no longer makes them?


No. I was discussing replacing my 25 year old oil burner a few
years ago. I had looked at some on the showroom of my service
people. When the guy showed up to clean the furnace I asked if he
thought I was due for a new one. "Let's see how efficient this one
is first" he said. He cleaned it, checked the plenum carefully, and
tested it and gave me the efficiency number. [80% or so, if I
recall]--

He did the math on the back of his hand and said I *might* save myself
a service call in the next few years, but it would take a decade to
pay for the new high efficiency furnace in oil saved. He
pronounced my old burner both safe and fairly efficient.


-snip-
Any suggestions? I am assuing I SHOULD not ask for a someone to come
and give me an estimate or they will just try to sell me a new furnace
as with this guy.


Check around your neighborhood to see if anyone has a
serviceman/company that they're happy with. Personally I'd write off
the guy that left you hanging. At worst he was just trying to
rip you off-- but even in the best case he didn't adequately explain
to you what your furnace's problem was.


Last week, I cancelled a service call and estimate from another
company. I assume I should not recall them since they know I was
asking for an estimate for a new furnace.


If that ends up to be the company that your neighbors like, I'd call
them up and explain that you were unsure of what you wanted last week,
but since then you've heard good things about their company & you'd
like their opinion.

Jim
  #19   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"NWM" wrote in message
...

First : You need a service man that will clean all that rust out of there and
see how it burns afterwards. I can clean one in about 45 minutes and put it
back
together and this is not a major job. I think the service man wanted to sell a
new furnace and too lazy to clean it. I would call another service compant and
tell them to give it a good cleaning and you might be surprised to see what
happens. Rusted up burners is a common problem and i see them rusted up all
the
time. I clean them out and they run fine. The only reason I may say change the
burners or a new furnace would be the burners have big holes rusted through
them
and letting the gas not come out of the louvers of the burners. If they are
not
rusted through. Clean them out and be happy.



The service order invoice says the following

"Reported to job site. Found furnace to be very rusted out. Also found
burners to be rotted. Burners will not fire(well this is completely
inaccurate because they did fire). Gas is building in heat exchangers.
I shut off gas to unit and informed customer not to run unit."

So can you or any tech tell if the burners are rotted or have holes in
them without cleaning them first? Are small holes ok, or just the big
holes the problem?

Thnks


This is Turtle.

If there was holes big enough to not be able to clean. The flames would be
coming back out the opening of the burners and burning up the wires outside
where the air intake is.

Also if you have a gas build up , you have stopped up burners and not holes in
the burners.

Fine you a service company that will come and service the burners AND PULL THE
BURNERS OUT WHERE YOU CAN INSPECT THEM YOURSELF. If he don't have 10 minutes to
pull them out for you to inspect them. RUN HIS ASS OFF. You can also tell him
that if you don't get to see the burners yourself, he is not getting paid for
the service call.

Now when you call the service company out there. Tell them before they come out
you want the burners pulled out and you want to inspect them yourself and you
want them cleaned and replaced back in the furnace. Also don't accept any ideal
of a new one and you can tell them so.

If the tech has not got 10 minutes to pull the burners out for you to see them.
RUN HIS ASS OFF. Then Call me and I will come over and KICK HIS ASS. Some how we
have lost the respect there use to be in this business.

Your being scammed here. You got a Furnace salesman out and not a repair person.

TURTLE


  #20   Report Post  
Bob Landry
 
Posts: n/a
Default


$2096 for a Lennox G60 2 stage 80% with humidifier and some new
ductwork. This is in Utah. Replacing a 32 year old Lennox with visible
holes in the heat exchanger. Guess we got our money's worth out of
that one.


On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:05:54 GMT, NWM
wrote:

Well the service guy said the burner had too much rust and showed me
that the burner wasn't burning all the gas. Consequently, he turned
off the gas to the furnace and told me the furnace could blow up if I
tried to light it up. He could replace the burner, but this company
stopped making furnaces 20 years ago, so parts would be difficult to
get and the total cost to replace the burner with labor would amount
to 500-1000.

Well the estimate for a new furnace(80percent) with new digital
thermostat, and the surrounding ductwork and 2 man all day labor
amounts to $4750, 10 percent off for cash. He said the price of steel
had gone up dramatically the last 2 years. Now I will get a couple of
other estimates.

Is this a typical price? Archived messages range from under 2000 to
above 4000. Never saw a price as high as my estimate in the archives
even for a 90 percent model. A 96 percent model will cost over 2000
more.

Anyone have experience with Home Depot's referral service? I normally
check out the Better Business Bureau for companies that are
(preferably)members and don't have any outstanding complaints. Better
yet, members who don't have any complaints at all in the past 36
months. I wonder if Home Depot screens their referrals. I ask, because
maybe Home Depot gives deals to the companies that they refer.




  #21   Report Post  
Philip
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I would suggest that:

1) Check your neighbors to see who they use.

2) When you call tell them that the you want the furnace to be checked
and serviced before the heating season starts. They will probably ask
when was the last time it was serviced. Give a honest answer. If you
have had any problems let them know. As to the rust and holes, let
them find out for themselves and let them give you their professional
opinion. Don't start the process saying that you have heavy rust and
that you need a new furnance. If that is the case, they will let you
know.

NWM wrote in message . ..
First : You need a service man that will clean all that rust out of there and
see how it burns afterwards. I can clean one in about 45 minutes and put it back
together and this is not a major job. I think the service man wanted to sell a
new furnace and too lazy to clean it. I would call another service compant and
tell them to give it a good cleaning and you might be surprised to see what
happens. Rusted up burners is a common problem and i see them rusted up all the
time. I clean them out and they run fine. The only reason I may say change the
burners or a new furnace would be the burners have big holes rusted through them
and letting the gas not come out of the louvers of the burners. If they are not
rusted through. Clean them out and be happy.



The service order invoice says the following

"Reported to job site. Found furnace to be very rusted out. Also found
burners to be rotted. Burners will not fire(well this is completely
inaccurate because they did fire). Gas is building in heat exchangers.
I shut off gas to unit and informed customer not to run unit."

So can you or any tech tell if the burners are rotted or have holes in
them without cleaning them first? Are small holes ok, or just the big
holes the problem?

Thnks

  #22   Report Post  
HeatMan
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
NWM wrote:


-snip-


No. I was discussing replacing my 25 year old oil burner a few
years ago. I had looked at some on the showroom of my service
people. When the guy showed up to clean the furnace I asked if he
thought I was due for a new one. "Let's see how efficient this one
is first" he said. He cleaned it, checked the plenum carefully, and
tested it and gave me the efficiency number. [80% or so, if I
recall]--


80% is a good number, but you are looking at the steady state efficiency,
not the annual efficiency (AFUE).

I've checked 15 year old gas fired hot air furnaces that had a 83 to 86%
efficiency.

There is a difference.


  #23   Report Post  
Martik
 
Posts: n/a
Default



80% is a good number, but you are looking at the steady state efficiency,
not the annual efficiency (AFUE).


So why do all the mfg's show an output btu rating that is 80% of the input?

Should it not be 80% to account for the cycling?


  #24   Report Post  
HeatMan
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Martik" wrote in message
news:b29nd.166954$df2.154094@edtnps89...


80% is a good number, but you are looking at the steady state

efficiency,
not the annual efficiency (AFUE).


So why do all the mfg's show an output btu rating that is 80% of the

input?

Should it not be 80% to account for the cycling?


You really want me to think tonight, don't you? I'm not going to get this
right, but I'll try.

Here on my desk, I have a rating plate off of a GE furnace. While I can't
be sure of the date, I'm sure the furnaces they were attached to were made
in the late 1970's. They show an input of 160K and an output of 132.8K,
80%, right? What about the pilot? Then you have to add the efficiency of
the blower motor and the 110v/24v transformer. (BTW, that direct drive
blower was huge compared to the blower that replaced it) This is what drags
down the efficiency.

Any better?


  #25   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Steady State is the efficiency it runs at when warmed to full
efficiency, many heavy old units may only achieve this for 50 % of their
complete cycle thereby lowering overall AFUE rating. An example ,I have
a 50 yr old steam boiler in an apt building it is was a #1 design then
and today, a Kewanee Scotch Marine, Today when used commercialy running
constantly they reach 82-85%, efficiency , but overall AFUE may be
only 50% because It holds 400 gallons to heat, where a new unit will do
the same job with 50 gallons. New units have more efficient designs
alowing them to reach maximun efficiency sooner, also ' thinner metal"
This is also why short cycling, keeping a minimal swing will reduce
a units efficiency significanty, it takes time to reach full efficiency.
But our new efficient heat exchangers do not last as long, thinner metal
is used to increase rapid heat transfer to reach full potential fast,
and for highest AFUE at the lowest cost to the manufacturer.



  #26   Report Post  
Philip Lewis
 
Posts: n/a
Default

So i've asked a couple times in other threads, trying to find the
rated efficiency of my furnace.
It claims to be rated for 130K BTU output for water.
but then has "AGA" rating of
input =218,000 BTU
output = 172,800 BTU

Does that mean efficiency is:
172800 / 218000 = 79% or
130000/218000 = 59%

Considering the boiler was installed 50 years ago (estimated) I'm
guessing 59%, but I could be wrong.

Please don't make me post to the HVAC group... I hear they're mean.

--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")


  #27   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
Posts: n/a
Default

With what little I know about age and design and a unit I had replaced
your unit was 59% is now much less, maybe 50-55%. Modern units with no
pilot and a auto chimney damper are 82-83% . no pilot and damper raise
efficiency 5-10% Look into a modern condensing unit , they range from
93-99% efficient.

  #28   Report Post  
NWM
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Turtle et al.:

Second service call was much better. He actually took apart
everything, scrubbed and vacuumed everything and only had to replace
one part, the copper wire to the pilot light. Took only an Hour. The
bill was 186 bucks:78 for the service call which included 1/2 hour and
70 bucks for for 1/2 hour of additional labor and 25 for one part.He
wasn't a crook like the other guy who told me it would take 4-5 hours
to take everything apart, and perhaps cost me 1000. I doubted your
claims turtle but you were right on the money

The second guy quoted 3000 for a new 80 percent furnace. He never even
pushed it. He only told me after I asked. I asked him whether he
detected any holes rusted through, and he said no, not that he could
see with the naked eye, but he would have to turn it on and see what
the flames did. He said everything was fine, just old. He even gave me
turorial on how the limit timer worked , and explained the reason it
didn't work before was the burner was all clogged up and wasn't
producing enough heat. Nithing corroded in the lmit timer. All I need
now was a 16x25 filter.

Well what a relief. Found an honest service tech. I will actually
think about him during Thanksgiving.

Happy Holidays
  #29   Report Post  
John Hines
 
Posts: n/a
Default

NWM wrote:

Well what a relief. Found an honest service tech. I will actually
think about him during Thanksgiving.


Keep his number around for the future, and tell your neighbors if they
have problems, that he is the guy to call.
  #30   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Now complain to your city and atty general and call your local
newspaper, they may run a story. Ask for your money back from the first
crook or stop payment on check or credit card



  #31   Report Post  
Martik
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"HeatMan" wrote in message
. ..

"Martik" wrote in message
news:b29nd.166954$df2.154094@edtnps89...


80% is a good number, but you are looking at the steady state

efficiency,
not the annual efficiency (AFUE).


So why do all the mfg's show an output btu rating that is 80% of the

input?

Should it not be 80% to account for the cycling?


You really want me to think tonight, don't you? I'm not going to get this
right, but I'll try.

Here on my desk, I have a rating plate off of a GE furnace. While I can't
be sure of the date, I'm sure the furnaces they were attached to were made
in the late 1970's. They show an input of 160K and an output of 132.8K,
80%, right? What about the pilot? Then you have to add the efficiency of
the blower motor and the 110v/24v transformer. (BTW, that direct drive
blower was huge compared to the blower that replaced it) This is what
drags
down the efficiency.

Any better?


So are you saying that the pilot + increased CFM = 20% Also, the induced
draft motor should be included?


  #32   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Unit design is what makes efficiency not Cfm

  #33   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Philip Lewis" wrote in message
...
So i've asked a couple times in other threads, trying to find the
rated efficiency of my furnace.
It claims to be rated for 130K BTU output for water.
but then has "AGA" rating of
input =218,000 BTU
output = 172,800 BTU

Does that mean efficiency is:
172800 / 218000 = 79% or
130000/218000 = 59%

Considering the boiler was installed 50 years ago (estimated) I'm
guessing 59%, but I could be wrong.

Please don't make me post to the HVAC group... I hear they're mean.


This is Turtle.

if you have a 218,000 btu input and have a 172,800 btu output. You have a 79.266
% Rating of the furnace. Now when you use this figure as to how effecent it is.
Your very lucky to get the full rating out of it as stated here for everything
has to be perfect to get this rating. 20 years ago or more the rating system was
just a estimate at best and what you would hope to get out of it if everything
was perfect and brand new. These older unit when they get some age on them will
at best get a 55% or 60% in the real world.

You don't need to go to alt.hvac for a lot or most all the ones at alt.hvac that
would answer questions are right here answering questions. If you give a
question here and I / we can't answer it. I will copy and paste your question
over there to have a discussion about it. If you don't get a answer to any
normal question here , we will move it over there for a discussion.

TURTLE


  #34   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"NWM" wrote in message
...


Turtle et al.:

Second service call was much better. He actually took apart
everything, scrubbed and vacuumed everything and only had to replace
one part, the copper wire to the pilot light. Took only an Hour. The
bill was 186 bucks:78 for the service call which included 1/2 hour and
70 bucks for for 1/2 hour of additional labor and 25 for one part.He
wasn't a crook like the other guy who told me it would take 4-5 hours
to take everything apart, and perhaps cost me 1000. I doubted your
claims turtle but you were right on the money

The second guy quoted 3000 for a new 80 percent furnace. He never even
pushed it. He only told me after I asked. I asked him whether he
detected any holes rusted through, and he said no, not that he could
see with the naked eye, but he would have to turn it on and see what
the flames did. He said everything was fine, just old. He even gave me
turorial on how the limit timer worked , and explained the reason it
didn't work before was the burner was all clogged up and wasn't
producing enough heat. Nithing corroded in the lmit timer. All I need
now was a 16x25 filter.

Well what a relief. Found an honest service tech. I will actually
think about him during Thanksgiving.

Happy Holidays


This is Turtle.

I just had to mouth off here for it ruffled my feathers to see a scam artist
like this do it to the public. Now i will say you need to have it cleaned just a
little more than every 20 years. I would say about 5 years being the max. time
to go without a good cleaning. Like others have said here. keep his number in
your roller dex to call when you have trouble. Also you know who to call when
you have trouble now on.

Now if You want Give me his address and Phone number and I will come over there
and kick his ass. I can't stand theif's working in this business.

TURTLE


  #35   Report Post  
NWM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:37:39 -0600, "TURTLE"
wrote:


"NWM" wrote in message
.. .


Turtle et al.:

Second service call was much better. He actually took apart
everything, scrubbed and vacuumed everything and only had to replace
one part, the copper wire to the pilot light. Took only an Hour. The
bill was 186 bucks:78 for the service call which included 1/2 hour and
70 bucks for for 1/2 hour of additional labor and 25 for one part.He
wasn't a crook like the other guy who told me it would take 4-5 hours
to take everything apart, and perhaps cost me 1000. I doubted your
claims turtle but you were right on the money

The second guy quoted 3000 for a new 80 percent furnace. He never even
pushed it. He only told me after I asked. I asked him whether he
detected any holes rusted through, and he said no, not that he could
see with the naked eye, but he would have to turn it on and see what
the flames did. He said everything was fine, just old. He even gave me
turorial on how the limit timer worked , and explained the reason it
didn't work before was the burner was all clogged up and wasn't
producing enough heat. Nithing corroded in the lmit timer. All I need
now was a 16x25 filter.

Well what a relief. Found an honest service tech. I will actually
think about him during Thanksgiving.

Happy Holidays


This is Turtle.

I just had to mouth off here for it ruffled my feathers to see a scam artist
like this do it to the public. Now i will say you need to have it cleaned just a
little more than every 20 years. I would say about 5 years being the max. time
to go without a good cleaning. Like others have said here. keep his number in
your roller dex to call when you have trouble. Also you know who to call when
you have trouble now on.

Now if You want Give me his address and Phone number and I will come over there
and kick his ass. I can't stand theif's working in this business.

TURTLE


SOme more to chew on. Crook took off the lid to the filter and blower
and told me "Look, the filter is stuck to the blower and so the blower
needs to be replaced" He didn't even bother to take 2 seconds out of
his life to remove the filter to see it wasn't actually irreversibly
fused and melded to the blower, to form a bliter, as he claimed.
Well, honest guy just took the filter off and told me "This needs to
be checked once a month. If the filter does not look like it did when
you bought it, replace it. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a
16x25." He meant the filter needs to be replaced, not the entire
blower. Very strange. He never mentioned the entire blower needed to
be chucked.

Also, the crook spent 10 seconds trying to take the burner plate
off, but it got stuck so he gave up and told me it would take 4-5
hours and tons of money to clean and replace parts, so might as well
spend a lot more for a new furnace.Lazy low-rent Asshole. Honest guy
took about 5-10 minutes unscrewing and undoing nuts , shutting off the
gas first then unscrewing the pipe with a variety of screwdrivers and
wrenches to get the plate out. He wasn't happy but he did it. In the
beginning, while he was doing this, I was anticipating lots of things
he could rip me off on as he furiously used the various wrenches and
screwdrivers and plain old muscle power. Never did. As the hour went
by, I dismissed my suspicions .Total Pro.


I'll consider the 143 bucks the crook charged me for doing absolutely
nothing in 10 minutes as tuition for learning about crooks and pros.

Happy Holdays


  #36   Report Post  
willshak
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 11/20/2004 3:27 AM US(ET), NWM took fingers to keys, and typed the
following:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:37:39 -0600, "TURTLE"
wrote:



"NWM" wrote in message
. ..


Turtle et al.:

Second service call was much better. He actually took apart
everything, scrubbed and vacuumed everything and only had to replace
one part, the copper wire to the pilot light. Took only an Hour. The
bill was 186 bucks:78 for the service call which included 1/2 hour and
70 bucks for for 1/2 hour of additional labor and 25 for one part.He
wasn't a crook like the other guy who told me it would take 4-5 hours
to take everything apart, and perhaps cost me 1000. I doubted your
claims turtle but you were right on the money

The second guy quoted 3000 for a new 80 percent furnace. He never even
pushed it. He only told me after I asked. I asked him whether he
detected any holes rusted through, and he said no, not that he could
see with the naked eye, but he would have to turn it on and see what
the flames did. He said everything was fine, just old. He even gave me
turorial on how the limit timer worked , and explained the reason it
didn't work before was the burner was all clogged up and wasn't
producing enough heat. Nithing corroded in the lmit timer. All I need
now was a 16x25 filter.

Well what a relief. Found an honest service tech. I will actually
think about him during Thanksgiving.

Happy Holidays


This is Turtle.

I just had to mouth off here for it ruffled my feathers to see a scam artist
like this do it to the public. Now i will say you need to have it cleaned just a
little more than every 20 years. I would say about 5 years being the max. time
to go without a good cleaning. Like others have said here. keep his number in
your roller dex to call when you have trouble. Also you know who to call when
you have trouble now on.

Now if You want Give me his address and Phone number and I will come over there
and kick his ass. I can't stand theif's working in this business.

TURTLE




SOme more to chew on. Crook took off the lid to the filter and blower
and told me "Look, the filter is stuck to the blower and so the blower
needs to be replaced" He didn't even bother to take 2 seconds out of
his life to remove the filter to see it wasn't actually irreversibly
fused and melded to the blower, to form a bliter, as he claimed.
Well, honest guy just took the filter off and told me "This needs to
be checked once a month. If the filter does not look like it did when
you bought it, replace it. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a
16x25." He meant the filter needs to be replaced, not the entire
blower. Very strange. He never mentioned the entire blower needed to
be chucked.

Also, the crook spent 10 seconds trying to take the burner plate
off, but it got stuck so he gave up and told me it would take 4-5
hours and tons of money to clean and replace parts, so might as well
spend a lot more for a new furnace.Lazy low-rent Asshole. Honest guy
took about 5-10 minutes unscrewing and undoing nuts , shutting off the
gas first then unscrewing the pipe with a variety of screwdrivers and
wrenches to get the plate out. He wasn't happy but he did it. In the
beginning, while he was doing this, I was anticipating lots of things
he could rip me off on as he furiously used the various wrenches and
screwdrivers and plain old muscle power. Never did. As the hour went
by, I dismissed my suspicions .Total Pro.


I'll consider the 143 bucks the crook charged me for doing absolutely
nothing in 10 minutes as tuition for learning about crooks and pros.

Happy Holdays


Was the good guy an independent contractor, or was he an employee of
someone else?
If either, I would have given him a nice tip, the amount depending upon
the question I asked.
I tip everyone who works at, or delivers to, my house.
Not only is it a reward for doing a good job, it sometimes helps to move
you up on the list the next time you need them. Besides, people are
friendlier when they know you tip well.

  #37   Report Post  
NWM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Now I find out on another thread I started(Noob question about pilot
light), that I was ripped off. He never checked for CO in the flue,
nor checked the blower motor and blower fan , nor vacuumed the blower
motor area, nor checked the thermostat. Blower runs twice, once
during the burn and once again when only pilot is on. Thus according
to someone on the other thread, he never checked for heat rise .

THe original call was for a tuneup for 110 bucks, but it turned into a
service call because he had to perform labor replacing a thermal
coupler. Bait and switch? Man I am starting to hate everyoine in this
business. I actually thought he did a good job because he actaully got
the furnace running when the first guy didn't do a damned thing. I
htink I made the mistake of telling him that the auto setting on the
limit fan didn't work, thus he didn't bother with anything else. Silly
me, I didn't ask the guy on the phone to list all that the tuneup is
supposed to involve.

How many ****ing service techs do I have to call to get someone who
isn't an crook??????? Third time is a charm I hope.

Is it dangerous or just costly to have the blower fan run while the
burner isn't burning and only the pilot light is on? SOunds like I am
being ****ing poisoned. But what the **** do I know. Nothing.
  #38   Report Post  
Gary R. Lloyd
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:59:03 GMT, NWM
wrote:

Now I find out on another thread I started(Noob question about pilot
light), that I was ripped off. He never checked for CO in the flue,
nor checked the blower motor and blower fan , nor vacuumed the blower
motor area, nor checked the thermostat. Blower runs twice, once
during the burn and once again when only pilot is on. Thus according
to someone on the other thread, he never checked for heat rise .

THe original call was for a tuneup for 110 bucks, but it turned into a
service call because he had to perform labor replacing a thermal
coupler. Bait and switch? Man I am starting to hate everyoine in this
business. I actually thought he did a good job because he actaully got
the furnace running when the first guy didn't do a damned thing. I
htink I made the mistake of telling him that the auto setting on the
limit fan didn't work, thus he didn't bother with anything else. Silly
me, I didn't ask the guy on the phone to list all that the tuneup is
supposed to involve.

How many ****ing service techs do I have to call to get someone who
isn't an crook??????? Third time is a charm I hope.


There is a world of difference between being a crook and not finding
all problems. The first guy was a crook. The second guy was honest,
but perhaps not as thorough as he should have been. I would tend to
cut him a little slack. Give him a call and see what he has to say
about the current problem.

Is it dangerous or just costly to have the blower fan run while the
burner isn't burning and only the pilot light is on? SOunds like I am
being ****ing poisoned. But what the **** do I know. Nothing.


I see nothing in this or the other thread that would indicate you are
being poisoned, or that you are in any way endangered.

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software
http://www.techmethod.com

  #39   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Co is supposed to be in the flue not the house, blower should have been
cleaned and oiled if needed. run on will not hurt anything. Call him
back and dont pay to clean the blower

  #40   Report Post  
NWM
 
Posts: n/a
Default


There is a world of difference between being a crook and not finding
all problems. The first guy was a crook. The second guy was honest,
but perhaps not as thorough as he should have been. I would tend to
cut him a little slack. Give him a call and see what he has to say
about the current problem.

Is it dangerous or just costly to have the blower fan run while the
burner isn't burning and only the pilot light is on? SOunds like I am
being ****ing poisoned. But what the **** do I know. Nothing.


I see nothing in this or the other thread that would indicate you are
being poisoned, or that you are in any way endangered.

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software
http://www.techmethod.com



Sorry, I am getting too emotional :-)

So the blower fan blowing while only the pilot light is on is just
wasting electricity and not blowing anything dangerous into the house?
I am assuing it is still blowing hot air into the ducts and vents? Or
as the other guy siad, could be a faulty limit fan. Sheesh. I hope I
can get this fixed before I have to fly to my parents.

Thanks

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