Hi:

I will be getting a forced air gas furnace this week. Waiting on the
estimates on the different models and AFUE ratings and labor charge
estimates basedon duct work, etc. I was thinking of getting the
Carrier Performance model with 80 percent efficiency, which is a 2
stage blower. I had read in archived messages that the 2 stage variety
will have more problems because of more parts. Sounds like the 2 stage
will be better for my gas bills and better at heating the house.

My current furnace works, but the auto blower won't work, just manual.
It's an old furnace, perhaps 30 years old. And on manual, not a lot of
heat is coming out, although the gas is burning .

Also, should I leave all the vents open? I normally keep only the
vents open in rooms I use. Which is better on the as bills? Read
somewhere else that not keeping all vents open will use more gas,
ironically.

Thanks

2 stage usualy heat more evenly, yes there are more things to break,
but it will not save on utilitys. If you spend alot on heating get a
93%+ efficiency unit not 80%, which you may have now. Closing down all
dampers can be bad for your furnace, overheating it, there is a limit to
what your system can take, ask your instaler.

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:27:23 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

2 stage usualy heat more evenly, yes there are more things to break,
but it will not save on utilitys. If you spend alot on heating get a
93%+ efficiency unit not 80%, which you may have now. Closing down all
dampers can be bad for your furnace, overheating it, there is a limit to
what your system can take, ask your instaler.


I agree. Closing off vents is very bad for a heating system, and even
worse for a cooling system.

Gary R. Lloyd

"When the boot of government is on your neck,
it doesn't matter if it's left or right"

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:13:19 GMT, (Gary R. Lloyd)
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:27:23 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

2 stage usualy heat more evenly, yes there are more things to break,
but it will not save on utilitys. If you spend alot on heating get a
93%+ efficiency unit not 80%, which you may have now. Closing down all
dampers can be bad for your furnace, overheating it, there is a limit to
what your system can take, ask your instaler.


I agree. Closing off vents is very bad for a heating system, and even
worse for a cooling system.

Gary R. Lloyd

"When the boot of government is on your neck,
it doesn't matter if it's left or right"


Oops, sorry about the political sig line. I've been playing in the
political newsgroups (alt.politics.libertarian), and forgot to switch.

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software
http://www.techmethod.com

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:27:23 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

2 stage usualy heat more evenly, yes there are more things to break,
but it will not save on utilitys. If you spend alot on heating get a
93%+ efficiency unit not 80%, which you may have now. Closing down all
dampers can be bad for your furnace, overheating it, there is a limit to
what your system can take, ask your instaler.

I was thinking of getting anything middle of the road, not top of the
line and not the most basic. ANything 90percent and higher would
require more labor not to mention the larger jump up in price, for a
vent and duct that takes air from outside.

"Doe John" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:27:23 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

2 stage usualy heat more evenly, yes there are more things to break,
but it will not save on utilitys. If you spend alot on heating get a
93%+ efficiency unit not 80%, which you may have now. Closing down all
dampers can be bad for your furnace, overheating it, there is a limit to
what your system can take, ask your instaler.

I was thinking of getting anything middle of the road, not top of the
line and not the most basic. ANything 90percent and higher would
require more labor not to mention the larger jump up in price, for a
vent and duct that takes air from outside.

Still worth it. Check your Utility Company--There are all kinds of rebates
and incentives that pay off very well (up to $400) especially if you get the
92% with variable speed blower. Also, where do you think the air (large
volume) for combustion comes from with the 80% furnace? It's air from within
your house--all having been previously heated ($$$) and then thrown up
chimney--it, air, then it has to be replaced with (cold) outside air which
is what gives you the drafts and air leaks and also because it has to be
heated, increases your costs. I think that your house stays more evenly
heated by using the outside air for combustion.
MLD

What do you pay to heat your house, run numbers. A 94.5% furnace is apx
18.1% more efficient than 80%. Your payback may be quick considering
you will have the furnace for 20 yrs and gas is going up. Looking at
initial cost without figuring payback is short sighted.

Still worth it. Check your Utility Company--There are all kinds of rebates
and incentives that pay off very well (up to $400) especially if you get the
92% with variable speed blower. Also, where do you think the air (large
volume) for combustion comes from with the 80% furnace? It's air from within
your house--all having been previously heated ($$$) and then thrown up
chimney--it, air, then it has to be replaced with (cold) outside air which
is what gives you the drafts and air leaks and also because it has to be
heated, increases your costs. I think that your house stays more evenly
heated by using the outside air for combustion.
MLD


Can the ouside vent coming into the house be blocked by snow?

Also, I don't understand why using previously heated air for
combustion is worse than using cold air from outside? Any faqs on
this?

"Doe John" wrote in message
...


Still worth it. Check your Utility Company--There are all kinds of
rebates
and incentives that pay off very well (up to $400) especially if you get
the
92% with variable speed blower. Also, where do you think the air (large
volume) for combustion comes from with the 80% furnace? It's air from
within
your house--all having been previously heated ($$$) and then thrown up
chimney--it, air, then it has to be replaced with (cold) outside air
which
is what gives you the drafts and air leaks and also because it has to be
heated, increases your costs. I think that your house stays more evenly
heated by using the outside air for combustion.
MLD


Can the ouside vent coming into the house be blocked by snow?

Also, I don't understand why using previously heated air for
combustion is worse than using cold air from outside? Any faqs on
this?

Based on my experience---Blockage is not an issue. Don't forget, this is a
4 in. pipe and the vent is blowing out warm air--approx 80-90F ( I think)
and it certainly can blow away/melt snow.
Noting wrong with using previously heated air for combustion except that you
have already paid to heat it to room temperature and then throw it up the
chimney. Then as noted, you have to replace this air and it comes from the
outside and it has to be heated to room temperature. You pay to heat air
that you're going to put up your chimney----wasted $$$$$$. We're talking
about high volumes of air. The only problem that I had was that there was
several horizontal plastic ribs across the outside vent opening. One day I
found all these ribs cracked/broken and small plastic shavings in the
pipe--assumed that an animal or bird figured it was a nice place to set up
a winter home. I just put some chicken wire around the whole outside of the
pipes to keep creatures out. Haven't seen any signs of activity since I did
that.
MLD

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:42:55 GMT, "MLD" wrote:


"Doe John" wrote in message
.. .


Still worth it. Check your Utility Company--There are all kinds of
rebates
and incentives that pay off very well (up to $400) especially if you get
the
92% with variable speed blower. Also, where do you think the air (large
volume) for combustion comes from with the 80% furnace? It's air from
within
your house--all having been previously heated ($$$) and then thrown up
chimney--it, air, then it has to be replaced with (cold) outside air
which
is what gives you the drafts and air leaks and also because it has to be
heated, increases your costs. I think that your house stays more evenly
heated by using the outside air for combustion.
MLD


Can the ouside vent coming into the house be blocked by snow?

Also, I don't understand why using previously heated air for
combustion is worse than using cold air from outside? Any faqs on
this?

Based on my experience---Blockage is not an issue. Don't forget, this is a
4 in. pipe and the vent is blowing out warm air--approx 80-90F ( I think)
and it certainly can blow away/melt snow.
Noting wrong with using previously heated air for combustion except that you
have already paid to heat it to room temperature and then throw it up the
chimney. Then as noted, you have to replace this air and it comes from the
outside and it has to be heated to room temperature. You pay to heat air
that you're going to put up your chimney----wasted $$$$$$. We're talking
about high volumes of air.

I agree, and would add that cold air is dry air. The colder, the
drier. All of that outdoor air infiltrating into your home will tend
to lower the humidity. Then you pay to humidify it as well as heat it.

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software
http://www.techmethod.com

This is a bigger decision than I thought. I am considering just having
the furnace serviced for now. The guy who is mailing me the estimates
said that if I serviced the furnace using his company, he would deduct
the cost of the repair from the estimate of replacing the gas furnace
if I chose to later replace the furnace.

Labor is almost 100 bucks an hour and 30 bucks just to show up at the
door. As I said before, furnace works and burns gas, but the auto
blower setting doesn't work(knob pulled out), only manual( knob pushed
in). Does this sound like more than a 2 hour job?

Thx

Where are you located. If you are in the snow belt, I would recomend a 90%+
furnace.
Greg

"Doe John" wrote in message
...
This is a bigger decision than I thought. I am considering just having
the furnace serviced for now. The guy who is mailing me the estimates
said that if I serviced the furnace using his company, he would deduct
the cost of the repair from the estimate of replacing the gas furnace
if I chose to later replace the furnace.

Labor is almost 100 bucks an hour and 30 bucks just to show up at the
door. As I said before, furnace works and burns gas, but the auto
blower setting doesn't work(knob pulled out), only manual( knob pushed
in). Does this sound like more than a 2 hour job?

Thx

You are just putting off the inevitable and based on your comments, got your
head in the sand.-- "the furnace works and burns gas" not too bright a
comment--what if I said that "my car works and burns gas"---- but, in fact,
I'm getting 5 mpg when I used to get 25 mph. You want a new furnace but
don't want to pay for one. I budget my gas bill and the monthly amount is
set by the gas company based on prior usage. The year of the old furnace it
was increased--for this year they decreased the payment despite the rising
cost of gas. Best recollection, my own calculation of gas usage, based on
Therms used, showed a (conservative) decrease of about 15-20% between the
winters with and without the new furnace.
MLD

I disagree....

I went through the same decision process of what
type of furnace to purchase for my home in Long Island, NY

I had been using a 50+ year old furnance that came with
the house. I have only been the owner of this home for
about 2 years before I had to get rid of the beast.
Really an ineffecient unit and oil was going up in $$$.

Anyway, I went with a 80% 2 stage unit. The 90+
units get vented through PVC out the side of the
house and really need to be kept on top of to
get that high rate. There are so many things
that can go wrong with the furnace as well. I never
like overly complicated equipment. Cost savings?
Sure some in fuel, but over the long haul in repair
costs????

I am using a two stage Rheem unit that keeps the house
comfortable and warm.

Tom

Please note that a two stage furnace NEEDS a good
two stage thermostat. If you do not use it, when the
temp kicks on, it starts into low then after a default time
it will cycle to high. This cycling can be bad for the unit.
(short cycle ????)

With the right thermostat, if there is a 3 degree temp difference
it will ONLY stay on low to heat and maintain. If its more
then 3 degree its automatically goes to high. When it
reaches the 3 degree mark it goes to low and heats the
house gently to the desired temp.


"Greg O" wrote in message ...
Where are you located. If you are in the snow belt, I would recomend a 90%+
furnace.
Greg

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:35:37 GMT, "MLD" wrote:


"Doe John" wrote in message
.. .
This is a bigger decision than I thought. I am considering just having
the furnace serviced for now. The guy who is mailing me the estimates
said that if I serviced the furnace using his company, he would deduct
the cost of the repair from the estimate of replacing the gas furnace
if I chose to later replace the furnace.

Labor is almost 100 bucks an hour and 30 bucks just to show up at the
door. As I said before, furnace works and burns gas, but the auto
blower setting doesn't work(knob pulled out), only manual( knob pushed
in). Does this sound like more than a 2 hour job?

Thx

You are just putting off the inevitable and based on your comments, got your
head in the sand.-- "the furnace works and burns gas" not too bright a
comment--what if I said that "my car works and burns gas"---- but, in fact,
I'm getting 5 mpg when I used to get 25 mph. You want a new furnace but
don't want to pay for one.

You need to seriously improve your reading comprehension skills. I
never said such a thing. Amazing what kind of self-important
attention starved internet newsgroup "geniuses" are floating around.

Hey idiot, tis is obviously a temporary solution and the longer term
one needs more time.

Condiser yourslef plonked, and keep howling at the wind asshole.

Now didn't you get nasty. I guess you're the type that can't be told you're
wrong or contradicted. Your words "As I said before, furnace works and
burns gas". How can you say that you never said such a thing. At first I
just thought you weren't too bright--now I'm guessing that your hat size is
bigger than your IQ.
MLD
"Doe John" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:35:37 GMT, "MLD" wrote:


"Doe John" wrote in message
.. .
This is a bigger decision than I thought. I am considering just having
the furnace serviced for now. The guy who is mailing me the estimates
said that if I serviced the furnace using his company, he would deduct
the cost of the repair from the estimate of replacing the gas furnace
if I chose to later replace the furnace.

Labor is almost 100 bucks an hour and 30 bucks just to show up at the
door. As I said before, furnace works and burns gas, but the auto
blower setting doesn't work(knob pulled out), only manual( knob pushed
in). Does this sound like more than a 2 hour job?

Thx

You are just putting off the inevitable and based on your comments, got
your
head in the sand.-- "the furnace works and burns gas" not too bright a
comment--what if I said that "my car works and burns gas"---- but, in
fact,
I'm getting 5 mpg when I used to get 25 mph. You want a new furnace but
don't want to pay for one.

You need to seriously improve your reading comprehension skills. I
never said such a thing. Amazing what kind of self-important
attention starved internet newsgroup "geniuses" are floating around.

Hey idiot, tis is obviously a temporary solution and the longer term
one needs more time.

Condiser yourslef plonked, and keep howling at the wind asshole.

(Tom K) wrote in message . com...
I disagree....

I went through the same decision process of what
type of furnace to purchase for my home in Long Island, NY

I had been using a 50+ year old furnance that came with
the house. I have only been the owner of this home for
about 2 years before I had to get rid of the beast.
Really an ineffecient unit and oil was going up in $$$.

Anyway, I went with a 80% 2 stage unit. The 90+
units get vented through PVC out the side of the
house and really need to be kept on top of to
get that high rate. There are so many things
that can go wrong with the furnace as well. I never
like overly complicated equipment. Cost savings?
Sure some in fuel, but over the long haul in repair
costs????

I am using a two stage Rheem unit that keeps the house
comfortable and warm.

Tom

Please note that a two stage furnace NEEDS a good
two stage thermostat. If you do not use it, when the
temp kicks on, it starts into low then after a default time
it will cycle to high. This cycling can be bad for the unit.
(short cycle ????)

With the right thermostat, if there is a 3 degree temp difference
it will ONLY stay on low to heat and maintain. If its more
then 3 degree its automatically goes to high. When it
reaches the 3 degree mark it goes to low and heats the
house gently to the desired temp.

Interesting surmises, Tom, but first the OP was talking _gas_ not
_oil_ which is one good way to minimize troubles. There have been
reported problems with 90%+ gas units, relating to salts in the
incoming air, and heat exchanger metallurgy. A reputable installer
should be able to give you good odds on steering clear of problems, as
regards unit, installation, and operation. Reducing fear-factor.

No fossil energy source is going to be dropping much, if any, in
price. Expect the opposite. Never mind that waste is stupid. You
may not see much benefit from 90%+ over 80% units now, but you sure
will increasingly each year. Future home-buyer might well be swayed,
too.

Wood/pellet units get more beautiful by the day, too.

John