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  #1   Report Post  
Jud McCranie
 
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Default Water pump on/off every 3 seconds

We have a deep well with a tank in the garage. If the water is
running, the pump runs for about 1 second then cuts off for about 2
seconds, and repeats. Is this normal?

Recently it seems that if any water is running, the pressure elsewhere
is a lot lower than it used to be.

Is there a problem with the water system, and can we fix it?

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  #2   Report Post  
Rich
 
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It sounds like your tank is water logged. You need an air head at the top of
the tank, this air compresses and evens out the pressure as the on/off
cycles through. One solution is to drain the tank then pump up the tank to
20-30 pounds, then turn the water pump back on and see if this solves it.
Another thing to consider is a holding tank with a bladder then this
shouldn't happen..

Good luck, Rich


"Jud McCranie" wrote in message
...
We have a deep well with a tank in the garage. If the water is
running, the pump runs for about 1 second then cuts off for about 2
seconds, and repeats. Is this normal?

Recently it seems that if any water is running, the pressure elsewhere
is a lot lower than it used to be.

Is there a problem with the water system, and can we fix it?

---
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  #3   Report Post  
Playintennis5274
 
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Another thing to consider is a holding tank with a bladder then this
shouldn't happen..


scratch that. . . if they make bladder tanks that big it would cost him a
fortune. just drain your tank then restart the pump and see what happens. that
should remedy the on & off problem. may also fix the low pressure if not,
there is a pressure switch on the tank w/ a guage, under the cover of the sw,
there are 2 adjusting screws, 1 increases the CUT IN & CUT OUT PRESSURE &
#2 ONLY ADJUSTS CUT OFF . there will be a diagram under the cover w/
instructions.
  #5   Report Post  
indago
 
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041108 2131 - Jud McCranie posted:

On 09 Nov 2004 00:49:00 GMT,
(Playintennis5274) wrote:

Another thing to consider is a holding tank with a bladder then this
shouldn't happen..


scratch that. . . if they make bladder tanks that big it would cost him a
fortune. just drain your tank then restart the pump and see what happens.


OK, it looks like the only way to drain the tank is to open a valve at
the top of the tank which is similar to a tire stem and open a faucet
out at the pump. I've got that going.

(dumb) Question: do I put the valve back in and close it off before I
turn the pump back on, or should I fill the tank with water and then
put the valve back in?


Once the tank is emptied, put all the fittings back in and sealed properly
with some thread compound and then, as already suggested, turn the pump back
on and let the tank refill. The system should put some water into the tank
along with a volume of air. Some say about half air and half water, and
sometimes 2/3 water and 1/3 air. The air should be at the top. Usually you
can tell by the sweat level on the outside of the tank. See that the sweat
is about halfway up the tank when the pump has shut off. If this doesn't
happen, then redrain the tank and use the other suggestion of putting some
air pressure into the tank, 20 to 30 pounds was suggested, and then turn the
pump back on again and fill the tank until the pump shuts off. Then check
the sweat level again. There has to be a volume of air in the top of the
tank for the system to work properly. As already noted, your system has
become waterlogged -- that is, the tank is full of water and no air pocket.



  #6   Report Post  
Jud McCranie
 
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On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 03:02:18 GMT, indago
wrote:
Once the tank is emptied, put all the fittings back in and sealed properly
with some thread compound and then, as already suggested, turn the pump back
on and let the tank refill. ...


Thanks, it is working now. When it was cycling every 2 or 3 seconds,
the pressure gauge was dropping very low very quickly and then going
back up very quickly when the pump kicked on. The needle was bouncing
around like mad. Now it cuts on when it gets down to 42 PSI and cuts
off at about 56 PSI, and it moves gradually and takes several seconds
to do it. I assume that 42/56 PSI settings are OK.

Tanks :-) to everyone who replied. You're the greatest!

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Terry
 
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"Jud McCranie" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 03:02:18 GMT, indago
wrote:
Once the tank is emptied, put all the fittings back in and sealed

properly
with some thread compound and then, as already suggested, turn the pump

back
on and let the tank refill. ...


Thanks, it is working now. When it was cycling every 2 or 3 seconds,
the pressure gauge was dropping very low very quickly and then going
back up very quickly when the pump kicked on. The needle was bouncing
around like mad. Now it cuts on when it gets down to 42 PSI and cuts
off at about 56 PSI, and it moves gradually and takes several seconds
to do it. I assume that 42/56 PSI settings are OK.

Tanks :-) to everyone who replied. You're the greatest!



Moment read the OP, thought of loss of the air cushion in the system. i.e.
System was waterlogged.
Don't know about yours but I remember some pumps (this was mainly on shallow
well systems) that had a "Snifter Valve"; the purpose of which was to sniff
in a little bit of air every time the pump ran to maintain the air reserve
which is absolutely essential.
Never had a system with a bladder inside the tank but understand if that
ruptures it can also be a problem.
Typical settings here for domestic were cut in at 20 lbs. cut out at 40lbs.
The pressure switch that runs the pump usually being adjustable. To find out
how read the instructions or figure it out from the switch which may be
labelled.


  #8   Report Post  
Harry K
 
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Jud McCranie wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 03:02:18 GMT, indago
wrote:
Once the tank is emptied, put all the fittings back in and sealed properly
with some thread compound and then, as already suggested, turn the pump back
on and let the tank refill. ...


Thanks, it is working now. When it was cycling every 2 or 3 seconds,
the pressure gauge was dropping very low very quickly and then going
back up very quickly when the pump kicked on. The needle was bouncing
around like mad. Now it cuts on when it gets down to 42 PSI and cuts
off at about 56 PSI, and it moves gradually and takes several seconds
to do it. I assume that 42/56 PSI settings are OK.

Tanks :-) to everyone who replied. You're the greatest!

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Now that you have had a batch of wrong, not to say bad, information,
here is the correct way.

1. You have a bladder tank as shown by the 'tire valve' on the top.
The bladder has burst thus loosing your air bubble.
2. Proper way to drain and pre-charge the tank.
a. Shut pump off.
b. Open drain valve
c. Open a faucet somewhere in the system to allow air into the
tank.
d. When empty close all open valves.
e. Pump air into the tank until you have about 2 PSI -BELOW- the
cut-in pressure, i.e., if pump starts at 30psi, you want 27-28 psi in
the tank.
f. Restart pump.
g. Go around and open all faucets to release trapped air in the
pipes.

You really should replace the tank - they aren't that expensive.
There will be stagnant water trapped by the blown bladder that could
be mixing with your supply.

Harry K
  #15   Report Post  
Harry K
 
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Jud McCranie wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:40:39 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

That depends. When you open a faucet, does the pressure drop to 42 psi,
causing the pump to kick on? Or is 44 psi as low as it gets?


I should have been clearer. I'm using the inline gauge for the water
pressure and a tire gauge for the air pressure. They may be a little
off.

When the tank was empty (or almost), I closed all of the valves.
There is one between the tank and the house but not between the tank
and the pump. I put my tire pump on it and got it up to 11 PSI. Then
I turned on the pump. Then the air pressure of the air at the top was
44 PSI. The pump cuts on when the water pressure gets down to 42 PSI
and cuts off at 57-58 PSI.

Since then, I've looked at the air pressure as the water is used until
the pump cuts on. The air pressure was 46PSI (was 44 before) and
dropped to 41-42, while the water pressure dropped to 42 PSI and the
pump cut on.

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1. A standard setting on/off is 20psi difference. 20/40 (not
common), 30/50 (very common), 40/60 which you have and is also common.
60 psi is generally regarded as the maximum recommended pressure for
residences as higher pressures causes undue wear and tear on fixturs.

2. I don't understand why you could only get 11 psi in the empty
tank. It will operate on that amount but the pump run time will be
far off of optimum, running for shorter times and starting oftener.
Starting is the hardest on the pump. The pump pre-charge just
adjusts the system for best run time.

3. The guage reading you are getting are within the tolerances of
whatever you are using. Best to use only one guage and adjust
everything with it.

I don't want to fly on false colors here. I learned this as a shade
tree operation when I became the default maintenance man on our
community pump.
Definitely not an expert.

Harry K


  #17   Report Post  
Jud McCranie
 
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On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:40:18 -0500, Jud McCranie
wrote:

With water in the tank, the air pressure is 46 PSI. I suppose it
should be higher, right?


What should the air pressure be? I could try pumping it up some more
now that there is water in the tank.

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  #18   Report Post  
Harry K
 
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Jud McCranie wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:40:18 -0500, Jud McCranie
wrote:

With water in the tank, the air pressure is 46 PSI. I suppose it
should be higher, right?


What should the air pressure be? I could try pumping it up some more
now that there is water in the tank.

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Replying to the previous two posts:

Your pressures with water in the tank are correct. The pressure
switch doesn't care a wit what your pre-charge is, it turns on and off
when the tank reaches the settings. Yes, it is a common
misunderstanding about the pre-charge, i.e., if I have 11 psi empty
and pump shuts off at a 60 psi setting shouldn't I have 71 psi on the
guage? No.

Re the low pressure in the shower: Not tank related I don't think.
Sounds like you have a blockage in pipes or the fixtures. I suspect a
partially clogged shower head. Not unusual for debris to be dislodged
when working on a water system. Usually the debris will clog an
aerator nozzle or shower head if not both.

Pre-charge can only be set with the pump off and the tank empty to get
it right. Then set for 2 psi below cut-in. You are probably right
that you are trying pressurize the entire plumbing system. It might
help if you have a whole house shut off valve in the system, probably
on the tank outlet, shut that before pressurizing. The pipes from the
tank to the pump SHOULD be full of water so no shut off is needed. I
say "should" because wierd conditions do exist.

Harry K
  #19   Report Post  
Michael Strickland
 
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On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:44:47 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

When you install the new tank, put a tire pressure gauge on the air fitting to
measure the precharge pressure. Then let air out, or pump more in, as needed,
to adjust the pressure to about 2 psi below the cut-on pressure setting on
your pump control.


Might I suggest to the OP the purchase of a powered air pump that plugs into
the cigarette lighter in your vehicle. Hand pumping a pressure tank is a
time-consuming and fatiguing process - at least for one the size I have (35
gal). I used a little portable battery powered air pump that I bought to top
off the vehicle tires from time to time, but one that plugs into your vehicle
would work just as well so long as you can get your vehicle close enough.
They are relatively inexpensive - IIRC I've seen them for about $20.

I guess if you know your cut-on pressure, you could take the tank to the gas
station and put air in it there to obtain the correct pressure. Bit of a pain
to disconnect/reconnect and load/unload though. If you're replacing your
tank, you could stop on the way home with the new one and pump it up....

Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
-----------------------------------


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  #20   Report Post  
willshak
 
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Michael Strickland wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:44:47 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:



When you install the new tank, put a tire pressure gauge on the air fitting to
measure the precharge pressure. Then let air out, or pump more in, as needed,
to adjust the pressure to about 2 psi below the cut-on pressure setting on
your pump control.



Might I suggest to the OP the purchase of a powered air pump that plugs into
the cigarette lighter in your vehicle. Hand pumping a pressure tank is a
time-consuming and fatiguing process - at least for one the size I have (35
gal). I used a little portable battery powered air pump that I bought to top
off the vehicle tires from time to time, but one that plugs into your vehicle
would work just as well so long as you can get your vehicle close enough.
They are relatively inexpensive - IIRC I've seen them for about $20.

I guess if you know your cut-on pressure, you could take the tank to the gas
station and put air in it there to obtain the correct pressure. Bit of a pain
to disconnect/reconnect and load/unload though. If you're replacing your
tank, you could stop on the way home with the new one and pump it up....


I believe that most are already factory charged to the correct pressure.
My Well-Trol by Amtrol was precharged to 30 PSI (according to the label).

Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
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  #21   Report Post  
Michael Strickland
 
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On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:27:03 -0500, willshak wrote:

I believe that most are already factory charged to the correct pressure.
My Well-Trol by Amtrol was precharged to 30 PSI (according to the label).


True, they are precharged to a standard pressure, don't recall off the top of
my head what mine was precharged to. 30 psi precharge is good for a pump
cut-on pressure of around 32 psi. Precharge should actually be 27-28 psi for
a 30/50 pressure switch if 30 psi is the actual cut-on pressure.

The reason for suggesting raising the pressure is that the OP is using, IIRC,
42 psi as the cut-on pressure, which means that he needs somewhere around 40
psi precharge. Precharge pressure should be a couple-three psi below cut-on
pressure, so it depends on what your cut-on pressure is exactly what your
precharge pressure needs to be for optimal pump operation.

Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
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  #22   Report Post  
willshak
 
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Michael Strickland wrote:

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:27:03 -0500, willshak wrote:



I believe that most are already factory charged to the correct pressure.
My Well-Trol by Amtrol was precharged to 30 PSI (according to the label).



True, they are precharged to a standard pressure, don't recall off the top of
my head what mine was precharged to. 30 psi precharge is good for a pump
cut-on pressure of around 32 psi. Precharge should actually be 27-28 psi for
a 30/50 pressure switch if 30 psi is the actual cut-on pressure.

The reason for suggesting raising the pressure is that the OP is using, IIRC,
42 psi as the cut-on pressure, which means that he needs somewhere around 40
psi precharge. Precharge pressure should be a couple-three psi below cut-on
pressure, so it depends on what your cut-on pressure is exactly what your
precharge pressure needs to be for optimal pump operation.



I'm not a plumber, so I was just commenting on the factory precharge as
listed on my tank. As a matter of fact, I do not know what the working
pressure is on my tank. It is 20 years old and has never been tested or
serviced, unless that was done by the plumber that installed it 20 years
ago.
I should have it looked at, although it is working fine, as far as I can
tell. For one thing, the pressure guage is broken (needle sitting at 0),
and has been like that for many years. My wife's nephew is a plumber and
has installed our Central A/C, services our boiler, and does our other
plumbing jobs when needed. The last time he was here, I mentioned the
pressure guage being broken and he said he would replace it, but you
know how it is with getting relatives to do jobs for you. :-)
I also just found out the tank name was Well-X-Trol, not Well-Trol (the
X is stylized into the logo).

Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
-----------------------------------


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  #24   Report Post  
Jud McCranie
 
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On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:54:44 GMT, "Michael Strickland"
wrote:

The reason for suggesting raising the pressure is that the OP is using, IIRC,
42 psi as the cut-on pressure, which means that he needs somewhere around 40
psi precharge.


Yes, the pump cuts on at 42 PSI, according to the gauge in the water
line. If I put my tire gauge on the air at the top of the tank, it
shows 46PSI. Should I lower that to 40?

So what I need to know is if the precharge pressure should be measured
with the tank empty or with water in it (assuming that the bladder has
burst). If I pump it up to 40PSI w/o water, the air pressure is going
to be very high after water is pumped in.


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  #25   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
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In article , Jud McCranie wrote:

We're OK for now, but not great. I'll probably have someone come look
at it soon, since we seem to need a new tank. I looked at them at
Home Depot yesterday, and one that looks like the size we have costs
$240.


You frequently see better prices (and higher quality) at plumbing supply
shops, and farm supply stores. If there's a TSC store in your area, it's
probably worth your while to pick up the phone and call them.


  #26   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
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In article , Jud McCranie wrote:
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:54:44 GMT, "Michael Strickland"
wrote:

The reason for suggesting raising the pressure is that the OP is using, IIRC,
42 psi as the cut-on pressure, which means that he needs somewhere around 40
psi precharge.


Yes, the pump cuts on at 42 PSI, according to the gauge in the water
line. If I put my tire gauge on the air at the top of the tank, it
shows 46PSI. Should I lower that to 40?


I wouldn't worry about it. The difference is probably due to inaccuracies in
the gauges.

So what I need to know is if the precharge pressure should be measured
with the tank empty or with water in it (assuming that the bladder has
burst).


Empty. That's what is meant by precharge pressure.

If I pump it up to 40PSI w/o water, the air pressure is going
to be very high after water is pumped in.


No, it won't. The control switch will shut off the pump when the pressure
reaches the set point of 58 psi.
  #27   Report Post  
Chuck
 
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On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:15:41 -0500, Jud McCranie
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:54:44 GMT, "Michael Strickland"
wrote:

The reason for suggesting raising the pressure is that the OP is using, IIRC,
42 psi as the cut-on pressure, which means that he needs somewhere around 40
psi precharge.


Yes, the pump cuts on at 42 PSI, according to the gauge in the water
line. If I put my tire gauge on the air at the top of the tank, it
shows 46PSI. Should I lower that to 40?

So what I need to know is if the precharge pressure should be measured
with the tank empty or with water in it (assuming that the bladder has
burst). If I pump it up to 40PSI w/o water, the air pressure is going
to be very high after water is pumped in.

Without water..
The cut-on doesn't care if its 46PSI of air or 46PSI of water...
That's the whole point of having the air in there, it can compress to
come up with the upper limit.. so you don't short cycle like you were
before.

As for the shower pressure, do you have the water valve to the house
fully open? Sounds like a blockage between tank and house. You'll have
plenty of pressure as long as you use practically no volume.. with a
valve partially open..
  #28   Report Post  
Jud McCranie
 
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On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 00:43:33 GMT, Chuck wrote:

As for the shower pressure, do you have the water valve to the house
fully open?


Yes, it is fully open.

Sounds like a blockage between tank and house. You'll have
plenty of pressure as long as you use practically no volume.. with a
valve partially open..


Pressure and flow are low. But the gauge at the tank shows 42-57 PSI.

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Harry K
 
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Jud McCranie wrote in message . ..
On 10 Nov 2004 06:32:42 -0800, (Harry K)
wrote:

Re the low pressure in the shower: Not tank related I don't think.


Well, since we stated having this problem a few days ago, pressure in
the shower is way too low, and just barely enough. If one thing is
using water and you try to use something else, you get only a tiny
amount of pressure. For instance if a toilet is filling, and you try
to use the sink, only a small amount of water comes out. This problem
just started a few days ago.

Pre-charge can only be set with the pump off and the tank empty to get
it right. Then set for 2 psi below cut-in. You are probably right
that you are trying pressurize the entire plumbing system. It might
help if you have a whole house shut off valve in the system, probably
on the tank outlet, shut that before pressurizing.


I did have that valve closed.

We're OK for now, but not great. I'll probably have someone come look
at it soon, since we seem to need a new tank. I looked at them at
Home Depot yesterday, and one that looks like the size we have costs
$240.


---
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With that much pressure in the tank, you shouldn't have any flow
problems at any outlet even using 2 at once. You have blockage
somewhere after the tank or a valve that is only partly open. It is
possible that the blown bag is allowing full flow into the tank and
then at least partially blocking the outlet for outflow, i.e., acting
like a flapper valve.

Harry K

Harry K
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Michael Strickland
 
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On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:19:34 -0500, willshak wrote:

I'm not a plumber, so I was just commenting on the factory precharge as
listed on my tank. As a matter of fact, I do not know what the working
pressure is on my tank. It is 20 years old and has never been tested or
serviced, unless that was done by the plumber that installed it 20 years
ago.


I'm no plumber either, but have researched quite a bit on wells and their
maintenance so I could do whatever necessary plumbing-wise to get water from
the well to the house - the driller just drilled, installed the pump and
checked it. I built the wellhouse, installed the pressure switch, tank,
filter (to make sure no sand gets to the house) and the line from the
wellhouse to inside the house where the plumber took over (new construction).
As you may can tell, I like to take a hands-on approach G.

Having the proper precharge pressure (and a large enough tank for your
standard usage) just keeps pump starts to a minimum, prolonging life. All
recommendations I've seen say that the precharge pressure should be 2-3 psi
below the pump cut-on pressure. Since pressure switches come with a preset of
30/50 (there's a 20/40 and a high/low adjustable also IIRC), 30 psi precharge
would be close to right. Your plumber, when installing the system, may have
lowered the pressure in the tank a couple of psi or he could have adjusted
the pressure switch to a little higher than 30 cut-on pressure - just a
matter of turning a nut clockwise on the switch I have. Then again, he may
have done nothing but install the equipment - it appears to have served you
well no matter what the situation.

I should have it looked at, although it is working fine, as far as I can
tell. For one thing, the pressure guage is broken (needle sitting at 0),
and has been like that for many years.


Unless you're having one of the problems below, I'd just replace the gauge
and let it be.

Frequent pump cycling - Turn off water where pipe enters house, then check
pressure to see if it stays steady for at least 30 minutes. Turning off water
within the house eliminates pressure drops from leaky toilet valves and
dripping faucets.

Yes pressure drops - Could be a leak in the pipes somewhere or water is
flowing back into well when pump is off. Turn off shutoff near pump and check
pressure again after a minimum of 30 minutes. If it holds steady, there's
probably a leak between the wellhouse and the house (think you'd probably
know if it's inside the house). If the pressure drops, the valve that your
system uses to keep water from flowing back into the well is not working
properly - mine is a deep well submersible pump with foot valve.

No pressure stays steady - probably hole in tank bladder - replace tank

Low pressure - check filter, screens in faucets, holes in faucet aerators and
shower heads. If you have galvanized pipe and the system is old (probably is
if you have galvanized), the pipes may be filled with rust and need
replacing.

Replacing the pressure gauge should be a simple fix if you can operate a
crescent wrench and a pair of pliers. They're available at Home Depot and
Lowes pretty cheap. Just cut off the water and let off the pressure. Then use
the wrench to unscrew the original gauge while holding the pipe it's screwed
onto stationary with the pliers and screw on the new. Turn the water back on
and you're in business. Might want to put some plumbers putty or teflon tape
on the threads of the pipe the gauge screws onto.

If the pipe the gauge screws onto needs replacing also (might be full of
rust), they're available at HD and Lowes too.

Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
-----------------------------------


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  #38   Report Post  
Jud McCranie
 
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Latest: today we drained the tank again and this time I pumped the
pressure up higher with a tire pump that plugs into a cigarette
lighter, and refilled the tank. Also, right now I'm bypassing a
filter, which was clogged up. (I really should have checked that
earlier, but I replaced it not too long ago.) The air pressure in the
tank is 62 PSI.

At the moment the water pressure and flow is fine - just like it
should be. I'm going to see how it holds over the next few days.

The pump is running for about 15 seconds each time. Should it be
longer?

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Playintennis5274
 
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remember some pumps (this was mainly on shallow
well systems) that had a "Snifter Valve"; the purpose of which was to sniff
in a little bit of air every time the pump ran to maintain the air reserve
which is absolutely essential.


Never heard of that, and it sounds not only dumb but pointless, here is why. .
.. if you have a tank (no bladder ) 1/2 full w/ water and trapped (compressed )
air on top and your water outlet is on the bottom of the tank , HOW CAN THE AIR
ESCAPE ? ? SOOOO WHY WOULD THEY NEED TO PUT A SPHINCTER VALVE ON ? ? ?
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I need a little advice on running waterlines in an uninsulated crawlspace ozark Home Repair 12 January 29th 04 06:23 AM
Thankless or Tankless hot water heaters [email protected] Home Repair 6 January 29th 04 04:01 AM
hot water recirculator, instant hot water but not a water heating unit, saves water, gas, time, money HeatMan Home Repair 0 August 24th 03 01:26 PM


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