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#41
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Jud McCranie wrote in message . ..
Latest: today we drained the tank again and this time I pumped the pressure up higher with a tire pump that plugs into a cigarette lighter, and refilled the tank. Also, right now I'm bypassing a filter, which was clogged up. (I really should have checked that earlier, but I replaced it not too long ago.) The air pressure in the tank is 62 PSI. At the moment the water pressure and flow is fine - just like it should be. I'm going to see how it holds over the next few days. The pump is running for about 15 seconds each time. Should it be longer? --- Replace you know what by j to email Damn. I didn't consider a filter in the system. That is a common cause of low flow even when the tank is operating correctly. 15 sec is way too short of a cycle time and is very hard on the pump. You say air pressure in the tank is 62 psi. Is that with the tank empty or full? If it is empty it is way too much and the pump shouldn't even be shutting off unless an overload switch is being activated. Now that you have a air pump, start over. Drain the tank, add air to 2 psi below cut-off and restart your system. You will then have it set correctly. Harry K |
#42
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If you are going to give advice, at least know what you are talking
about. Hey Einstein. . could u pleeease highlight the part where i gave advice ? ? ? pretty sure that i asked a question. . . |
#43
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#44
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In article , Jud McCranie wrote:
Latest: today we drained the tank again and this time I pumped the pressure up higher with a tire pump that plugs into a cigarette lighter, and refilled the tank. Also, right now I'm bypassing a filter, which was clogged up. (I really should have checked that earlier, but I replaced it not too long ago.) The air pressure in the tank is 62 PSI. Too high. Look, this isn't rocket science. Your pump control is set to come on at 42 psi, and shut off at 58. So shut off the power to the pump and drain the tank, completely. Pressurize the tank to 40 psi. Turn the pump back on. That's all. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com) Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response. |
#46
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Jud McCranie wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:00:13 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: Look, this isn't rocket science. Your pump control is set to come on at 42 psi, and shut off at 58. So shut off the power to the pump and drain the tank, completely. Pressurize the tank to 40 psi. Turn the pump back on. It is working OK with that pressure. If I drain the tank and pressurize the tank to 40 PSI and then turn the pump on, the pressure will be even higher. The first time I drained the tank, I didn't pump any air in. The second time I pumped it up to 11 PSI, turned on the pump, and it compressed the air until it was at 46 PSI. The third time I drained it and pumped it up to 20 PSI, then turned on the pump and the air pressure went up to 62 PSI. After using it for more than a day, the air pressure is still at 62 PSI when the pump cuts off. And to check to see if the gauge is wrong, I used a different one and it reads 63.5 PSI. --- Replace you know what by j to email No, the pressure will NOT go higher. The control switch is set to cut off at about 62 psi. It will do that whether you have 1 psi or 40 psi for the precharge. 62 is where it will cut off. It will also start at about 40 psi no matter what your precharge is. The precharge is not what operates the system. The system operates only on the 20 psi differential that the pump adds on top of the pre-charge. The pre-charge is there to for two reasons. 1. Air bubble to compress to make the system work. 2. To control the cycle time of the pump. Anything less than the optimum (2 psi approx below cut-in) makes the pump run more often for less time. That is hard on pumps. Trust us. I don't know about Doug but I have been running these systems since I was 16 and am now 70 still running them. Shut the pump off, drain the tank and pump the proper amount of air in. Harry K |
#47
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#48
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0 PSI 20 PSI (approx) 11 PSI 42 PSI 20 PSI 62 PSI (63.5 according to my other gauge) If I drain the tank, pump up the air to more than 20 PSI, and then turn the pump on, the final air pressure is going to be higher than 62 PSI. I'm willing to take bets on that. It has twice been said that this isn't rocket science, but there is physics involved - Boyle's law. As a gas is compressed onto a smaller volume, its pressure goes up. Yeah, but the pump is supposed to be cutting off at a specific pressure, so boyles law or not, the upper limit should be constant. If it's not, then there's something wrong with your setup. Specifically, if you pre-pressurise the tank to or beyond what the upper cutoff is, the pump should never come on at all. |
#49
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According to Harry K :
Jud McCranie wrote in message . .. On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:04:19 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: It's cheaper to buy a couple of pipe wrenches at Sears, and rent a truck, than to pay somebody else to put the tank in for you. :-) I know it is simple - set it in there and connect one pipe, but I don't think I'm physically able to do it. I see google is being very slow again as yesterday's post hasn't shown yet. Don't be intimidated by the -size- of the tank. They weigh relatively nothing. The box they come in and any packing materials almost weigh as much as the tank. They are awkward to haul and maneuver tho due to the size. Interesting. The reason I say that is that the bladder-style tank we have isn't very big at all. It's about 14" in diameter, about 24" tall, and probably weighs about 15 pounds empty. That handles us without any problems whatsoever. (simultaneously taking a shower, flushing the toilet, running the dishwasher, and clothes washer when the irrigation system is in operation! Okay, yeah, we couldn't take the shower without a pressure balance valve...) A _large_ tank (ie: anything approaching a hot water tank in size) is suggestive of either an old-fashioned bladder-less tank, or cistern requirements (ie: very low flowrate well). -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#50
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According to Harry K :
Right. All it takes is two pipe wrenches and one will do if you're lucky. Just don't do what I did once and forget to empty the tank before you break the connection. Or what I did once. In a hurry to test whether the new water pump was working in a new house, I wired it up, and only did enough plumbing to get it to the tank. Fired it up. Hey, cool, it works! Now _how_ do I empty the tank? I almost got away with partially cracking open a 1/4" NPT plug on the meter manifold and deflecting the spray into a bucket. Until the plug fell out. FWOOMMP! There were a number of very upset (wet) people on the other side of the basement. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#51
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According to Michael Strickland :
Frequent pump cycling - Turn off water where pipe enters house, then check pressure to see if it stays steady for at least 30 minutes. Turning off water within the house eliminates pressure drops from leaky toilet valves and dripping faucets. As a FYI, another "odd" pump cycling cause: the tubing from the line to the pressure switch gets plugged with crud. You'll think the pressure switch or pump was defective, because sometimes the pump fires up, and sometimes it doesn't. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#52
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#53
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On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:07:45 -0500, "
wrote: Yeah, but the pump is supposed to be cutting off at a specific pressure, so boyles law or not, the upper limit should be constant. The pump does cut off consistently at 57-58 PSI of the WATER. The AIR pressure at the top of the tank at that point depends on how much air I put in when the tank was drained. The more initial air, the higher the air pressure. If it's not, then there's something wrong with your setup. The bladder may be broken, but it is holding the air pressure. Specifically, if you pre-pressurise the tank to or beyond what the upper cutoff is, the pump should never come on at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a diaphragm or bladder made out of rubber or something like that in the tank, with air above it and water below it? When the tank is drained, there is no water in the tank and pressurizing the air in the tank via the valve at the top pressurizes the air above the diaphragm, but not below, right? (It doesn't pressurize the whole tank, just the bladder, right?) Then the pressurized air doesn't affect the water going in until it hits the diaphragm, right? --- Replace you know what by j to email |
#54
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#55
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Jud McCranie wrote in message . ..
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:07:45 -0500, " wrote: Yeah, but the pump is supposed to be cutting off at a specific pressure, so boyles law or not, the upper limit should be constant. The pump does cut off consistently at 57-58 PSI of the WATER. The AIR pressure at the top of the tank at that point depends on how much air I put in when the tank was drained. The more initial air, the higher the air pressure. If it's not, then there's something wrong with your setup. The bladder may be broken, but it is holding the air pressure. Specifically, if you pre-pressurise the tank to or beyond what the upper cutoff is, the pump should never come on at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a diaphragm or bladder made out of rubber or something like that in the tank, with air above it and water below it? When the tank is drained, there is no water in the tank and pressurizing the air in the tank via the valve at the top pressurizes the air above the diaphragm, but not below, right? (It doesn't pressurize the whole tank, just the bladder, right?) Then the pressurized air doesn't affect the water going in until it hits the diaphragm, right? --- Replace you know what by j to email O.K. I think I see why you are misunderstanding the system. The pressure in the tank is initially set by the pre-charge. The switch will be set for a specific cut-in/cut-off. The pump starts and will add about 20 psi to whatever pre-charge you put in and then cut off when system pressure reaches the cut-off (62psi). Here is a basic step-by-step. Tank empty 20 psi pump starts and pumps 40 psi until it reaches 60 cuts off. You now have a tank containing water and an air bubble that is now compressed to 60 psi. you draw water. Tank empties down as the air bubble expands System pressure reaches 40 psi. Pump cuts off. At this point the air bubble has decreased only 20 psi System repeats until something fails. Your basic misunderstanding in your post is that the water is compressed. No it is not, water cannot be compressed. The air bubble, whether separated from the water by a bladder or not is what makes the system run and is the only thing having pressure. Yes, it does compress the bladder and thus presses on whatever is in the tank, i.e, the entire tank both above and below the bladder senses the same pressure. When the tank is empty the bladder will probably be resting on the tank bottom with no water at all in the tank. When you clean out the pipe to the pressure switch (should be a 1/8" or 1/4" pipe) then re-pressurize the tank to about 40 psi (I think you said it cuts off at 42psi). Watch the gauge. You will see it happily cranking along between 40 and 60 psi (okay, a bit higher at your settingss). Ignore testing teh pressure via the air fill valve on the top of the tank other than when adding the pre-charge. It will always be the same as the tank guage within the error range of the instruments you are using. Erratic operation could also be caused by a sticking pressure switch. Harry K |
#56
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According to Jud McCranie :
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:07:45 -0500, " wrote: Yeah, but the pump is supposed to be cutting off at a specific pressure, so boyles law or not, the upper limit should be constant. The pump does cut off consistently at 57-58 PSI of the WATER. The AIR pressure at the top of the tank at that point depends on how much air I put in when the tank was drained. The more initial air, the higher the air pressure. Which is a violation of physics. In a closed vessel with liquid and/or gas components, ALL of it will be at _exactly_ the same pressure at any given moment. The presence of the diaphram can essentially be ignored (if the diaphragm is in contact with both components). [There's a couple of teensy imperfections in this "ideal situation", but we're talking less than .25PSI in this case.] If you're reading a different pressure for the air and the water, either your measurements are defective, or the points at which you measure the air and water do not have a free flow of _pressure_ between them. Ie: there's a plug. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a diaphragm or bladder made out of rubber or something like that in the tank, with air above it and water below it? Right. When the tank is drained, there is no water in the tank and pressurizing the air in the tank via the valve at the top pressurizes the air above the diaphragm, but not below, right? Right. (It doesn't pressurize the whole tank, just the bladder, right?) Right. Then the pressurized air doesn't affect the water going in until it hits the diaphragm, right? Right. Once the wqater hits the diaphragm, however, the water and air pressure will be the same (within half a PSI). So, if you're reading 68PSI on the air, and 50-ish PSI on the water when the pump kicks out, something _very_ wierd is going on. I"ll bet on the laws of physics being respected ;-) -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#57
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On 16 Nov 2004 07:03:36 -0800, (Harry K)
wrote: Your basic misunderstanding in your post is that the water is compressed. No it is not, water cannot be compressed. I know that water can't be compressed, I said that as water filled the tank, it compressed the air at the top. When you clean out the pipe to the pressure switch (should be a 1/8" or 1/4" pipe) It is a 3/4" outside diameter pipe going to it, but it has a connector like this: http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...m.0& MID=9876 Thank you for all of your help and for being patient. It is working acceptably well right now, so I'm going to try to wait until the new year to replace the tank. --- Replace you know what by j to email |
#58
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In article , Jud McCranie wrote:
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:00:13 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: Look, this isn't rocket science. Your pump control is set to come on at 42 psi, and shut off at 58. So shut off the power to the pump and drain the tank, completely. Pressurize the tank to 40 psi. Turn the pump back on. It is working OK with that pressure. Maybe so, but it will work better with correct pressure. If I drain the tank and pressurize the tank to 40 PSI and then turn the pump on, the pressure will be even higher. Of course it will. The air is compressed by the water being pumped in. When the pressure reaches 58 psi (the cutoff setting on your control), the pump will shut off. That's how it's supposed to work. The first time I drained the tank, I didn't pump any air in. The second time I pumped it up to 11 PSI, turned on the pump, and it compressed the air until it was at 46 PSI. Indicates abnormal operation. |
#59
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In article , Jud McCranie wrote:
If I drain the tank, pump up the air to more than 20 PSI, and then turn the pump on, the final air pressure is going to be higher than 62 PSI. I'm willing to take bets on that. Fine with me. How much do you want to wager? There's _no_way_ that the pressure is _ever_ going to go higher than the cutoff setting on the well control, unless the control malfunctions. It has twice been said that this isn't rocket science, but there is physics involved - Boyle's law. As a gas is compressed onto a smaller volume, its pressure goes up. And as soon as the pressure reaches the cutoff setting on the well control, the pump shuts off, and the pressure goes no higher. If that does _not_ happen, then you need to replace the control unit, because it's malfunctioning. |
#60
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In article , Jud McCranie wrote:
On 15 Nov 2004 22:47:13 GMT, (Chris Lewis) wrote: If the unit has a small hose supplying the pressure switch, take it off, and ream it (and the fittings) out with a pipe cleaner. There is a 3/4" pipe coming off the main pipe that goes to the pressure switch, and there is a circular pressure gauge coming off that pipe. The pump cuts on and off consistently according to that gauge. I'll have to drain the tank again to clean it out. When you do, precharge the tank to 2 psi below the cut-ON setting on the control. Trust me. That's how it's supposed to work. |
#61
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In article , Jud McCranie wrote:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:07:45 -0500, " wrote: Yeah, but the pump is supposed to be cutting off at a specific pressure, so boyles law or not, the upper limit should be constant. The pump does cut off consistently at 57-58 PSI of the WATER. The AIR pressure at the top of the tank at that point depends on how much air I put in when the tank was drained. The more initial air, the higher the air pressure. You're getting different readings because you're using different gauges. One or both is not accurate. Which one is "right" doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is the reading on the gauge at the well control. If the pump comes on when *that* gauge reads 42 PSI, then you need to precharge the tank with air to a reading of 40 PSI on *that* gauge. Forget about the readings at the top of the tank. They are *not* relevant. If it's not, then there's something wrong with your setup. The bladder may be broken, but it is holding the air pressure. If the bladder is broken, it unquestionably is *not* holding the air pressure, any more than a broken balloon can hold air pressure. A pressure tank does not need a bladder at all in order to function; however, without a bladder, the air will eventually be absorbed by the water, a little at a time, until there's almost no air left -- which is exactly the problem that prompted your original post. The purpose of a bladder is to prevent this absorption. Specifically, if you pre-pressurise the tank to or beyond what the upper cutoff is, the pump should never come on at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a diaphragm or bladder made out of rubber or something like that in the tank, with air above it and water below it? Normally, yes. In your case, though, the bladder has apparently ruptured. When the tank is drained, there is no water in the tank and pressurizing the air in the tank via the valve at the top pressurizes the air above the diaphragm, but not below, right? (It doesn't pressurize the whole tank, just the bladder, right?) Then the pressurized air doesn't affect the water going in until it hits the diaphragm, right? AFAIK, that diaphragm is pretty near the bottom of the tank, so the air space below it is so small as to be irrelevant. |
#62
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#63
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#64
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In article , Jud McCranie wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:56:01 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: The only thing that matters is the reading on the gauge at the well control. If the pump comes on when *that* gauge reads 42 PSI, then you need to precharge the tank with air to a reading of 40 PSI on *that* gauge. IIRC, after I drained the water, that gauge showed 0 PSI after I drained the tank and still showed 0 after I pumped up the tank, which seems to make sense if the diaphragm is not completely broken, but only has a small leak. No, it doesn't. Even in a tank with no diaphragm at all, the gauge should read whatever pressure the tank has been precharged to, provided that: a) the gauge is operating properly b) there is no blockage in the tube leading to the gauge c) all the valves are closed d) there are no leaks in the system. |
#66
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#67
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#68
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In article , Jud McCranie wrote:
On 17 Nov 2004 19:40:44 -0800, (Harry K) wrote: Well yes but only after the pre-charge has been set. At least in my tank and it sounds like in Jud's too the pressure gauge on the well-trol reads 0 even with the correct precharge when the tank is empty. I can only assume that the bag blocks the tank outlet. That's what I think, but isn't the bag supposed to be airtight? (It holds the pressure.) It's *supposed* to be, yes. Yours *isn't*. That's how your tank got waterlogged. |
#70
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According to Jud McCranie :
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:17:00 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: No, it doesn't. Even in a tank with no diaphragm at all, the gauge should read whatever pressure the tank has been precharged to ... I checked it, and the water pressure gauge does go to 0 when I drain the tank - even though the air bladder is still pressurized. I just don't see how that gauge could be affected by the air pressure inside the bladder, because that gauge is outside the bladder. With the bladder/diaphragm between them, there is no contact between the air in the bladder and the gauge in the water line. It is sort of like if you measure the air pressure in one tire, it doesn't affect the pressure in another tire. This is suggestive that the bladder _is_ working properly. When you relieve all the pressure off the water line, the diaphragm "settles" down around the inlet and acts as a pressure dam. But once the water starts to become pressurized and comes in contact with the diaphragm and "lifts it off" the bottom, basic physics says that the water and air pressure will be identical (within a PSI or so). If they're not, your pressure gauges are simply not being consistent. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
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