DIYbanter - Main breaker inside vs. outside the house?

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Jeffrey J. Kosowsky

October 27th 04 01:26 AM

Main breaker inside vs. outside the house?

In upgrading our electrical we have the choice of either keeping the
main breaker inside the house or locating it outside as part of a
combo unit with the meter?
[Note we need a separate main breaker since the main panel is about 20
feet away from where the meter is and the supply enters the house]

Locating the main breaker outside would save a little money since we
avoid the need for a separate breaker box inside.

Are there any disadvantages (or advantages) to having the main breaker
outside?

(note we still will be able to shut off power inside at the main
panel, I assume)

bumtracks

October 27th 04 02:12 AM

put it at the meter
to kill indoor panel you walk outside to the meter area, it might be raining
or dark ?

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
In upgrading our electrical we have the choice of either keeping the
main breaker inside the house or locating it outside as part of a
combo unit with the meter?
[Note we need a separate main breaker since the main panel is about 20
feet away from where the meter is and the supply enters the house]

Locating the main breaker outside would save a little money since we
avoid the need for a separate breaker box inside.

Are there any disadvantages (or advantages) to having the main breaker
outside?

(note we still will be able to shut off power inside at the main
panel, I assume)

John Hines

October 27th 04 03:40 AM

ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:

In upgrading our electrical we have the choice of either keeping the
main breaker inside the house or locating it outside as part of a
combo unit with the meter?
[Note we need a separate main breaker since the main panel is about 20
feet away from where the meter is and the supply enters the house]

The main breaker needs to be within 10' of where the power comes in.

Are there any disadvantages (or advantages) to having the main breaker
outside?

It meets code in your case? Get one that is lockable, if you live in an
area with pranksters.

(note we still will be able to shut off power inside at the main
panel, I assume)

Any panel with more than 4 or 6 circuits, needs its own "main" that
shuts that whole panel down as well as the "house main".

_firstname_@lr_dot_los-gatos_dot_ca.us

October 27th 04 06:30 AM

In article ,
Jeffrey J. Kosowsky wrote:
In upgrading our electrical we have the choice of either keeping the
main breaker inside the house or locating it outside as part of a
combo unit with the meter?
[Note we need a separate main breaker since the main panel is about 20
feet away from where the meter is and the supply enters the house]

Locating the main breaker outside would save a little money since we
avoid the need for a separate breaker box inside.

Are there any disadvantages (or advantages) to having the main breaker
outside?

(note we still will be able to shut off power inside at the main
panel, I assume)

I'm not sure I understand. As someone else already said: You need to
have a main shutoff for the whole house outside (for the fire
department to kill power to a burning house quickly, without going
in), which has to be within 10' of the meter. So the main breaker
(which nearly always is the main shutoff for a residential system)
will go outside, whether you like it or not. So I fail to see how the
main breaker could possible be inside. It is theoretically possible
that your local area has modified the standard electrical code to
allow the main shutoff to be inside, but I find that unlikely.

But you also say that you will be able to shut off power inside (which
I think is an excellent idea, I'd hate to have to go outside anytime a
breaker trips or I want to kill a particular circuit), *** but you say
at the main panel *** (which has to be outside, so how could this
work)?

The only way this makes sense is if you are asking the following
question: Given that the main breaker will be outside, does it make
sense to have two panels: One outside, with just a main breaker to cut
power to the whole house, feeding nothing but one big wire that goes
to a single subpanel inside, with lots of little breakers in it, and
from where power is distributed? I'm all in favor of that, and that's
exactly how our house is wired: Outside is just a meter and a 200A
breaker. and located in the basement in a central location (from where
all wire runs are reasonably short) is a big subpanel with all the
breakers. Cost is a little higher (two panels), but not terribly
much, because the outside panel can be a reasonable small one with
very few breaker slots.

The way I look at this is: You save a lot of money by doing the
electrical installation yourself. We decided to take some of those
savings, and plow them into having a better electrical system, by
upgrading things all over the place: Two separate panels in convenient
locations, use a more expensive but easier to work in large panel (we
have a 40-slot panel for a 1700 sqft house, without use of tandem
breakers), divide the house into more circuits than one would usually
do (to modularize wire runs), use heavier gauge wire, put some runs
into conduit to allow future upgrades without having to fish wires,
and use better outlets and more dimmers. This also left us much room
for expansion, which has really paid off this year when finishing the
basement, and adding a 100A subpanel for the woodshop.

--
The address in the header is invalid for obvious reasons. Please
reconstruct the address from the information below (look for _).
Ralph Becker-Szendy

Eric Ryder

October 27th 04 02:12 PM

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
In upgrading our electrical we have the choice of either keeping the
main breaker inside the house or locating it outside as part of a
combo unit with the meter?
[Note we need a separate main breaker since the main panel is about 20
feet away from where the meter is and the supply enters the house]

Locating the main breaker outside would save a little money since we
avoid the need for a separate breaker box inside.

Are there any disadvantages (or advantages) to having the main breaker
outside?

(note we still will be able to shut off power inside at the main
panel, I assume)

I'm not an electrician, but I've been taught that when the load panel is
remote (=10'?) from the entrance/meter that a disconnect (not a breaker)
has to be installed at the meter by code. The main breaker would be in the
load panel per norm.

As far as fire response personnel go, I believe that they routinely pull the
meter before entering involved structures.

John Hines

October 27th 04 03:12 PM

default

October 27th 04 05:28 PM

I'm not sure I understand. As someone else already said: You need to
have a main shutoff for the whole house outside (for the fire
department to kill power to a burning house quickly, without going
in), which has to be within 10' of the meter. So the main breaker

I suspect that you are misunderstanding the reason why the shutoff
has to be close to the meter. Given that in order to get to my panel,
you have to go into the house and down and under the cellar stairs,
it's not going to be so you can get to it quickly. I suspect, rather,
that it's because you don't want to have a 30-70' of number 2
cable running through the length of your house with no shutoff but
the transformer even after you've "shut off" the power in your house.

It'd kind of suck to shut off the mains, and then hit the feeder cable
with your sawsall while cutting down an interior wall....

HorneTD

October 27th 04 06:27 PM

Eric Ryder wrote:
"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...

In upgrading our electrical we have the choice of either keeping the
main breaker inside the house or locating it outside as part of a
combo unit with the meter?
[Note we need a separate main breaker since the main panel is about 20
feet away from where the meter is and the supply enters the house]

Locating the main breaker outside would save a little money since we
avoid the need for a separate breaker box inside.

Are there any disadvantages (or advantages) to having the main breaker
outside?

(note we still will be able to shut off power inside at the main
panel, I assume)

I'm not an electrician, but I've been taught that when the load panel is
remote (=10'?) from the entrance/meter that a disconnect (not a breaker)
has to be installed at the meter by code. The main breaker would be in the
load panel per norm.

As far as fire response personnel go, I believe that they routinely pull the
meter before entering involved structures.

You were taught wrong. The distance from the point of entry of the
service entry conductors to the interior of the structure to the service
disconnecting means is what is limited rather than the distance from the
meter. An enclosed circuit breaker is a perfectly acceptable Service
Disconnecting Means under the US NEC. If there is a disconnecting means
elswere then the panel will be main lug only (MLO) unless the main
breaker panel is cheaper. Although a few fire departments still pull
meters there is not one public utility that approves of this practice.
Meter jaws are not designed to be separated under load. Arcing and arc
burns can result from doing so. Services larger than four hundred
amperes will not be deenergized by pulling the meter. Meter cans in the
225 to 400 range are usually equipped with shunts that bypass the meter
when the lever is operated to release the jaw tension on the meter.
--
Tom H

PS I am an electrician and a firefighter.

_firstname_@lr_dot_los-gatos_dot_ca.us

October 27th 04 07:48 PM

In article ,
default wrote:
I suspect that you are misunderstanding the reason why the shutoff
has to be close to the meter. Given that in order to get to my panel,
you have to go into the house and down and under the cellar stairs,
it's not going to be so you can get to it quickly. I suspect, rather,
that it's because you don't want to have a 30-70' of number 2
cable running through the length of your house with no shutoff but
the transformer even after you've "shut off" the power in your house.

It'd kind of suck to shut off the mains, and then hit the feeder cable
with your sawsall while cutting down an interior wall....

Actually, I don't think it would "suck". I think it would more
"blow", and the person operating the sawsall would blow first :-)

This makes for an even better reason to have a main breaker on the
outside of the house (not just a shutoff, but a real breaker, which
will automatically open under overload). What if someone is
harmlessly nailing somewhere (maybe nailing something to the floor
right above the big feeder cable), or nailing to the other side of the
joist that the feeder is attached to), and hits the feeder? If you
get lucky, the nail burns a hole into the conductor, and maybe it
electrocutes the person. If you get unlucky, you burn down the house.

When we built our house (which has about 50' of a 200A feeder going
from the main panel outside the house to the subpanel in the center of
the basement), I decided that the feeder was going to go into conduit.
Partially that was for safety reasons (even EMT, which is pretty
thin-wall, gives you reasonable protection and a good visual warning
in the 1.5" size required for a 200A feeder). Partially that was
because buying the required feeder cable in NM-style (we needed
#2/0-3) was impractical to obtain: home centers don't stock it, and
the electrical distributors only sell a whole reel, which is
HORRENDOUSLY expensive. Even as it was, installing the feeder was not
cheap (two-ought cable is expensive, 1.5" conduit and the fittings for
it is expensive, and I had to bring the conduit to a pipe bending
company to have two custom bends made in it, because I couldn't find
any place that would lend or rent me a pipe bender that size).

Don't even ask how much fun it was to pull the four wires (including
ground) through the conduit. Even with a whole bottle of pulling
lubricant in the conduit and cleaning sand/dirt off the wire
meticulously before going into the conduit, we ended up having to use
a 2x4 attached to the end of the wire as a lever to aid in pulling.
It was a miserable afternoon. Should have used larger conduit.

--
The address in the header is invalid for obvious reasons. Please
reconstruct the address from the information below (look for _).
Ralph Becker-Szendy

HorneTD

October 27th 04 11:47 PM

wrote:
In article ,
Jeffrey J. Kosowsky wrote:

In upgrading our electrical we have the choice of either keeping the
main breaker inside the house or locating it outside as part of a
combo unit with the meter?
[Note we need a separate main breaker since the main panel is about 20
feet away from where the meter is and the supply enters the house]

Locating the main breaker outside would save a little money since we
avoid the need for a separate breaker box inside.

Are there any disadvantages (or advantages) to having the main breaker
outside?

(note we still will be able to shut off power inside at the main
panel, I assume)

I'm not sure I understand. As someone else already said: You need to
have a main shutoff for the whole house outside (for the fire
department to kill power to a burning house quickly, without going
in), which has to be within 10' of the meter. So the main breaker
(which nearly always is the main shutoff for a residential system)
will go outside, whether you like it or not. So I fail to see how the
main breaker could possible be inside. It is theoretically possible
that your local area has modified the standard electrical code to
allow the main shutoff to be inside, but I find that unlikely.

But you also say that you will be able to shut off power inside (which
I think is an excellent idea, I'd hate to have to go outside anytime a
breaker trips or I want to kill a particular circuit), *** but you say
at the main panel *** (which has to be outside, so how could this
work)?

The only way this makes sense is if you are asking the following
question: Given that the main breaker will be outside, does it make
sense to have two panels: One outside, with just a main breaker to cut
power to the whole house, feeding nothing but one big wire that goes
to a single subpanel inside, with lots of little breakers in it, and
from where power is distributed? I'm all in favor of that, and that's
exactly how our house is wired: Outside is just a meter and a 200A
breaker. and located in the basement in a central location (from where
all wire runs are reasonably short) is a big subpanel with all the
breakers. Cost is a little higher (two panels), but not terribly
much, because the outside panel can be a reasonable small one with
very few breaker slots.

The way I look at this is: You save a lot of money by doing the
electrical installation yourself. We decided to take some of those
savings, and plow them into having a better electrical system, by
upgrading things all over the place: Two separate panels in convenient
locations, use a more expensive but easier to work in large panel (we
have a 40-slot panel for a 1700 sqft house, without use of tandem
breakers), divide the house into more circuits than one would usually
do (to modularize wire runs), use heavier gauge wire, put some runs
into conduit to allow future upgrades without having to fish wires,
and use better outlets and more dimmers. This also left us much room
for expansion, which has really paid off this year when finishing the
basement, and adding a 100A subpanel for the woodshop.

Only some local building codes require a shut off outside the house.
There is no such requirement in the US NEC. You appear to be confusing
the main panel which is a term of art with the National Electric Code
Service Disconnecting Means which is a national standard regulatory term.

The NEC defines panels in two categories. These are Lighting and
Appliance and Power. A lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard
is one having more than 10 percent of its overcurrent devices protecting
lighting and appliance branch circuits.

A lighting and appliance branch circuit is a branch circuit that has a
connection to the neutral of the panelboard and that has overcurrent
protection of 30 amperes or less in one or more conductors.

A service disconnecting means can take many forms of which a panel
mounted breaker is but one. Some of the others are fused & unfused
disconnects, Fused pull outs, enclosed circuit breakers, and in the case
of the Grounded Current Carrying Conductor a lug or terminal.
--
Tom H

HA HA Budys Here

October 28th 04 12:54 AM

From: HorneTD

Eric Ryder wrote:
"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...

In upgrading our electrical we have the choice of either keeping the
main breaker inside the house or locating it outside as part of a
combo unit with the meter?
[Note we need a separate main breaker since the main panel is about 20
feet away from where the meter is and the supply enters the house]

Locating the main breaker outside would save a little money since we
avoid the need for a separate breaker box inside.

Are there any disadvantages (or advantages) to having the main breaker
outside?

(note we still will be able to shut off power inside at the main
panel, I assume)

I'm not an electrician, but I've been taught that when the load panel is
remote (=10'?) from the entrance/meter that a disconnect (not a breaker)
has to be installed at the meter by code. The main breaker would be in
the
load panel per norm.

As far as fire response personnel go, I believe that they routinely pull
the
meter before entering involved structures.

You were taught wrong. The distance from the point of entry of the
service entry conductors to the interior of the structure to the service
disconnecting means is what is limited rather than the distance from the
meter.

10' of SE conductor.

An enclosed circuit breaker is a perfectly acceptable Service
Disconnecting Means under the US NEC. If there is a disconnecting means
elswere then the panel will be main lug only (MLO) unless the main
breaker panel is cheaper. Although a few fire departments still pull
meters there is not one public utility that approves of this practice.

Mine issues meter keys to the various FD's. (all newer services, and older
services 200a or higher automaticall het meter locks, not just thos silly
money-bag seals) They do approve of not only pulling the meter out, but also
give them insulated covers to close up the live jaws. In addition, they approve
of the FF's taking a nice swift axe hit to the meter itself, (while on the
ground) to prevent the customer from plugging it back in before the homeowner
re-obtains his CofO.

Meter jaws are not designed to be separated under load. Arcing and arc
burns can result from doing so.

Nevermind the potential for arc burns, the meters are pulled right before
they're about to enter an involved residence.

Services larger than four hundred
amperes will not be deenergized by pulling the meter. Meter cans in the
225 to 400 range are usually equipped with shunts that bypass the meter
when the lever is operated to release the jaw tension on the meter.
--
Tom H

PS I am an electrician and a firefighter.

dave	October 28th 04 04:38 AM

If your still not understanding this remember that the "wire" needs to
be protected and even a non fused switch or non breakered switch is
some protection for that 10 foot section before your panel.

Matt Whiting

October 28th 04 11:29 PM

dave wrote:

If your still not understanding this remember that the "wire" needs to
be protected and even a non fused switch or non breakered switch is
some protection for that 10 foot section before your panel.

Uh, how is a switch going to provide circuit overcurrent protection?

Matt

Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department Postmaster

October 29th 04 01:53 AM

HA HA Budys Here wrote:

From: HorneTD

Eric Ryder wrote:

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...

In upgrading our electrical we have the choice of either keeping the
main breaker inside the house or locating it outside as part of a
combo unit with the meter?
[Note we need a separate main breaker since the main panel is about 20
feet away from where the meter is and the supply enters the house]

Locating the main breaker outside would save a little money since we
avoid the need for a separate breaker box inside.

Are there any disadvantages (or advantages) to having the main breaker
outside?

(note we still will be able to shut off power inside at the main
panel, I assume)

I'm not an electrician, but I've been taught that when the load panel is
remote (=10'?) from the entrance/meter that a disconnect (not a breaker)
has to be installed at the meter by code. The main breaker would be in

the

load panel per norm.

As far as fire response personnel go, I believe that they routinely pull

the

meter before entering involved structures.

You were taught wrong. The distance from the point of entry of the
service entry conductors to the interior of the structure to the service
disconnecting means is what is limited rather than the distance from the
meter.

10' of SE conductor.

An enclosed circuit breaker is a perfectly acceptable Service
Disconnecting Means under the US NEC. If there is a disconnecting means
elswere then the panel will be main lug only (MLO) unless the main
breaker panel is cheaper. Although a few fire departments still pull
meters there is not one public utility that approves of this practice.

Mine issues meter keys to the various FD's. (all newer services, and older
services 200a or higher automaticall het meter locks, not just thos silly
money-bag seals) They do approve of not only pulling the meter out, but also
give them insulated covers to close up the live jaws. In addition, they approve
of the FF's taking a nice swift axe hit to the meter itself, (while on the
ground) to prevent the customer from plugging it back in before the homeowner
re-obtains his CofO.

Meter jaws are not designed to be separated under load. Arcing and arc
burns can result from doing so.

Nevermind the potential for arc burns, the meters are pulled right before
they're about to enter an involved residence.

Services larger than four hundred
amperes will not be deenergized by pulling the meter. Meter cans in the
225 to 400 range are usually equipped with shunts that bypass the meter
when the lever is operated to release the jaw tension on the meter.
--
Tom H

PS I am an electrician and a firefighter.

Buddy
What utility serves your area that encourages the FD to pull meters
under load? The Edison Electric Institute has alleged that no investor
owned utility approves of this practice. I'd like to chase down the
exception to find out the reasoning behind their position.
--
Tom H

bumtracks

October 29th 04 03:38 PM

well if its only 10' of wire, it'll act as a fuseable link eventually.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
dave wrote:

If your still not understanding this remember that the "wire" needs to
be protected and even a non fused switch or non breakered switch is
some protection for that 10 foot section before your panel.

Uh, how is a switch going to provide circuit overcurrent protection?

Matt

Matt Whiting

October 29th 04 10:57 PM

bumtracks wrote:

well if its only 10' of wire, it'll act as a fuseable link eventually.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

dave wrote:

If your still not understanding this remember that the "wire" needs to
be protected and even a non fused switch or non breakered switch is
some protection for that 10 foot section before your panel.

Uh, how is a switch going to provide circuit overcurrent protection?

Matt

Not necessarily. The switch may have a higher current capacity than the
10' of wire! :-)

Matt

dave	October 29th 04 11:40 PM

The switch is a form of protection as there is smoke coming from in
the wall !
If someone is there to notice they can turn it off. If not the switch
will burn open before the wiring, most times.......

GabeB

July 4th 17 11:44 PM

Main breaker inside vs. outside the house?

replying to _firstname_, GabeB wrote:
In the Indiana, all homes have them inside. It seems to me that it is a safety
issues in case of electrical storm, or safety of home owners to not allow
others access to your power

--
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