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  #41   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
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Isnt KINCH the guy that says WD 40 is SAFE- Safe to even Drink. And
of course Tankless water heaters are BOGUS RIPP OFFS
KINCH _THE _ GRINCH

  #42   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
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KINCH the dumb **** grinch

  #43   Report Post  
Richard J Kinch
 
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Chris Lewis writes:

You're missing a critical difference between how CO2 and CO affects
the body.


No, you're missing the whole point, that pCO vs pCO2 in most auto
exhaust is so low, that the CO2 has to get to you before the CO will.
CO poisoning from auto exhaust is very difficult any more.

CO2 _primarily_ works by simple displacement of O2, ...


Right, you're going to suffer from lethal CO2 anoxia or respiratory
depression before CO conentrates enough to poison you. For someone
attempting suicide, this is likely to result in a respiratory panic that
overrule the cognitive will.

You're missing a critical difference between how CO2 and CO affects
the body.


Hardly.

Take careful note of the MSDS's and descriptions of CO2 and CO
poisoning.


An MSDS is a hysterical, dumbed-down, crisis-management flash card,
neither a balanced nor a complete source of information.

http://www.loganact.com/tips/royko.htm
  #44   Report Post  
Richard J Kinch
 
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Greg O writes:

So in other words, a few years ago when I was working on a car, in a
closed shop, exhaust hose attached, but unaware of a hole in the
exhaust, I should have known sooner I was poisoning myself?? I
realized that I was feeling faint and headed out the door. I don't
remembering even getting outside, don't remember opening the heavy
shop door. All I remember is a buddy that happened to stop by, finding
me sitting, passed out in a snow bank along side the shop. If I had
not caught myself feeling faint, or the shop door was farther away, I
would not be here today. I noticed nothing untill I felt dizzy.


Who knows, but sounds consistent with slow CO2 anoxia, CO poisoning.

Did you have any CO symptoms? How fast did you recover, and did you get
treatment for CO poisoning (blood levels at an ER)?
  #45   Report Post  
Richard J Kinch
 
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Chris Lewis writes:

Thus, operating a gas generator for a long period of time (hours)
when there's the slightest exhaust leak to living areas is _extremely_
hazardous. Because the CO2 concentration (and smell) may never get
strong enough to do something about.


A possible outcome, but not as you say, rather because the pCO vs pCO2
concentration is enormously high for a 1-cyl genset, compared to automobile
exhaust, which is what I was addressing.

Take careful note of the MSDS's and descriptions of CO2 and CO poisoning.


Silly to base toxicology on MSDSs.

http://www.loganact.com/tips/royko.htm


  #46   Report Post  
Richard J Kinch
 
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Doug Miller writes:

It is a fact that you once stated in this ng that the hydrocarbons in
gasoline are safe to drink.

It is also a fact that you claimed that borax is a deadly poison.

It is likewise a fact that when I posted LD50 figures that showed
otherwise, you claimed I was wrong, but never responded when
challenged to provide the correct figures.

In this thread you have claimed that the levels of CO in automobile
exhaust are not particularly harmful (I admit I'm paraphrasing, but I
think I've captured the gist of it).


Pish to your trolling grunts. I stand by my original posts. There's always
deja.com, as if anyone cared.
  #47   Report Post  
Richard J Kinch
 
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Richard J Kinch writes:

Who knows, but sounds consistent with slow CO2 anoxia, CO poisoning.


Sorry, that should have read, "not CO".
  #48   Report Post  
Greg O
 
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"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Greg O writes:

So in other words, a few years ago when I was working on a car, in a
closed shop, exhaust hose attached, but unaware of a hole in the
exhaust, I should have known sooner I was poisoning myself?? I
realized that I was feeling faint and headed out the door. I don't
remembering even getting outside, don't remember opening the heavy
shop door. All I remember is a buddy that happened to stop by, finding
me sitting, passed out in a snow bank along side the shop. If I had
not caught myself feeling faint, or the shop door was farther away, I
would not be here today. I noticed nothing untill I felt dizzy.


Who knows, but sounds consistent with slow CO2 anoxia, CO poisoning.

Did you have any CO symptoms? How fast did you recover, and did you get
treatment for CO poisoning (blood levels at an ER)?


Never went into the doc, but felt like puking my guts out, never did. I felt
real faint for about an hour. I sat outside in the winter air for an hour
then went home. I was feeling better, but still pretty sick. Went to bed
about two hours after the ordeal, it was around midnight. Still felt like
hell the next day, but better than the night before! Just a wiff of auto
exhuast still makes me sick to this day.
My point to the post is I never felt like I had trouble breathing at any
point. I did not notice a thing untill maybe 10 seconds before I dropped. No
problems breathing, just all of a sudden felt like somebody punched me!
Greg


  #49   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
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In article , Richard J Kinch wrote:

Silly to base toxicology on MSDSs.


Sillier still to base it on the words of someone who thinks gasoline is safe
to drink, and says borax will kill you but automobile exhaust won't.
  #50   Report Post  
Jamie
 
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"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Jamie writes:

I agree with your sentiment. But I think it is irresponsible to
(basically) tell people that it's OK to run your car in the garage
with the door shut because the emissions are virtually zero.


It would be irresponsible to twist my words to that effect.


Well, history is immutable. Either you forgot, or you disagree, that your
statement below gives the impression that I described. You say "only in
hollywood" can a car kill someone quickly (an hour, which is hardly quick),
and the study I posted showed CO at lethal levels in a few minutes in an
enclosed garage despite your contention that they are "near zero". Likewise,
your use of the term "survival instincts" implies that anyone would have
plenty of warning that they were "suffocating" from CO, which contradicts
the fact that over 200 people die in the US every year from CO poisiong.
Apparently they were born without this survival instinct. Or perhaps CO
kills quickly and silently, being odorless and tasteless.

For your reference, here is the exchange. I expect you will reply that my
interpretation of your statements is not correct, but I think that most
readers can judge for themselves whether I twisted your words or not.

Me:
A typical
car can probably idle for 8 hours on a gallon of gas.


Rich:
A car consumes more like 1 gallon/hour idling.


Me:
but it sure
doesn't take that long for someone to kill themself that way!


Rich:
Only in Hollywood. It's not a "big nod" like in the movies.
CO emissions from cars are typically near zero. The CO2 will displace air
and suffocate you. But neither is particularly fast, and survival
instincts are hard to countermand.






  #51   Report Post  
Richard J Kinch
 
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Jamie writes:

You say "only in
hollywood" can a car kill someone quickly (an hour, which is hardly
quick), and the study I posted showed CO at lethal levels in a few
minutes in an enclosed garage despite your contention that they are
"near zero". Likewise, your use of the term "survival instincts"
implies that anyone would have plenty of warning that they were
"suffocating" from CO, which contradicts the fact that over 200 people
die in the US every year from CO poisiong. Apparently they were born
without this survival instinct. Or perhaps CO kills quickly and
silently, being odorless and tasteless.


This is just distortion and misquoting from someone with a chip on the
shoulder, and I have no interest in responding to it.

CO concentration in most automobile exhaust is below the tens or
hundreds of ppm that cause serious symptoms. Auto exhaust is wet CO2
that can kill you, but not from CO poisoning.

Statistics on CO deaths involve "unvented kerosene and gas space
heaters; leaking chimneys and furnaces; back-drafting from furnaces, gas
water heaters, wood stoves, and fireplaces; gas stoves; generators and
other gasoline powered equipment; [and only lastly] automobile exhaust
from attached garages; and tobacco smoke. [!]"
(http://www.epa.gov/iaq/co.html)
  #52   Report Post  
Jamie
 
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Whatever... I included, verbatim, the original exchange so I fail to see how
I could be misquoting. Likewise, if you have no interest in responding to
me, why did you? You have truly mastered the art of self-contradiction on
that one. But really -- I have no chip on my shoulder, just a desire to set
the record straight in the face of potentially dangerous misinformation.

I already posted an actual study, by an actual university using actual
measurment equipment, that measured CO emissions from an automobile in a
typical garage setting, that contradicts your unreferenced and unsupported
statement that auto exhaust doesn't contain enough CO to kill you. I don't
think I need to post it again. On the other hand your reference here to
EPA's web site merely proves that people die from other sources as well as
cars, which I do not dispute. However, we are talking about cars.

If you're just trolling... well, you got me good, but I'm enjoying honing my
google skills to challenge your unbelievable "facts". My last day of work is
Friday, gotta fill the day somehow!! ;-)

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Jamie writes:

You say "only in
hollywood" can a car kill someone quickly (an hour, which is hardly
quick), and the study I posted showed CO at lethal levels in a few
minutes in an enclosed garage despite your contention that they are
"near zero". Likewise, your use of the term "survival instincts"
implies that anyone would have plenty of warning that they were
"suffocating" from CO, which contradicts the fact that over 200 people
die in the US every year from CO poisiong. Apparently they were born
without this survival instinct. Or perhaps CO kills quickly and
silently, being odorless and tasteless.


This is just distortion and misquoting from someone with a chip on the
shoulder, and I have no interest in responding to it.

CO concentration in most automobile exhaust is below the tens or
hundreds of ppm that cause serious symptoms. Auto exhaust is wet CO2
that can kill you, but not from CO poisoning.

Statistics on CO deaths involve "unvented kerosene and gas space
heaters; leaking chimneys and furnaces; back-drafting from furnaces, gas
water heaters, wood stoves, and fireplaces; gas stoves; generators and
other gasoline powered equipment; [and only lastly] automobile exhaust
from attached garages; and tobacco smoke. [!]"
(http://www.epa.gov/iaq/co.html)




  #53   Report Post  
Richard J Kinch
 
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Jamie writes:

Whatever... I included, verbatim, the original exchange so I fail to
see how I could be misquoting.


You, for example, paraphrased me as saying, "it's OK to run your car in the
garage with the door shut".
  #54   Report Post  
Chris Lewis
 
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According to Richard J Kinch :
Chris Lewis writes:

Thus, operating a gas generator for a long period of time (hours)
when there's the slightest exhaust leak to living areas is _extremely_
hazardous. Because the CO2 concentration (and smell) may never get
strong enough to do something about.


A possible outcome, but not as you say, rather because the pCO vs pCO2
concentration is enormously high for a 1-cyl genset, compared to automobile
exhaust, which is what I was addressing.


Yeah, but the toxicity of a given amount of CO is much higher than CO2, and
CO _accumulates_ in the body, whereas CO2 does not. You can live quite handily
in 5% CO2 as long as you want. Whereas, 200ppm of CO (.02% if I have the zeros
right) will _eventually_ kill you.

As for automotive exhaust issues, the statistics seem to refute your position.

check out http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic817.htm for example.

Do some google searching.

Take careful note of the MSDS's and descriptions of CO2 and CO poisoning.


Silly to base toxicology on MSDSs.


If that were the only thing you could base it on, yeah,
but it's not as if the facts in the MSDS for CO2 or CO are in doubt.

There's not exactly a dearth of confirmation in more scientific circles.

http://www.loganact.com/tips/royko.htm


So one silly MSDS kills the whole thing eh?

Watch out for DHMO! http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
  #55   Report Post  
Chris Lewis
 
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According to Richard J Kinch :
Greg O writes:

So in other words, a few years ago when I was working on a car, in a
closed shop, exhaust hose attached, but unaware of a hole in the
exhaust, I should have known sooner I was poisoning myself?? I
realized that I was feeling faint and headed out the door. I don't
remembering even getting outside, don't remember opening the heavy
shop door. All I remember is a buddy that happened to stop by, finding
me sitting, passed out in a snow bank along side the shop. If I had
not caught myself feeling faint, or the shop door was farther away, I
would not be here today. I noticed nothing untill I felt dizzy.


Who knows, but sounds consistent with slow CO2 anoxia,


No shortness of breath. Not slow CO2 anoxia.

CO poisoning.


Much more consistent with CO.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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