I prefer to keep my mouth shut until I know what I'm talking about and
since I'm not familiar with what the codes are or how they are applied
outside of where I'm at (Taxachusetts) I thought I'd seek an answer from
someone who knows how things get done in Florida.

A good friend who lives in an Orlando suburb (Windermere) told me that
he'd invested in a rollaround backup generator for his home,an expensive
one in a ritzy gated development earlier this month. He hired a licensed
electrician do the installation for him.

When he described the setup I winced, but refrained from telling him I
thought he'd just bought a dangerous and probably illegal installation
until I had a chance to confirm my suspicions.

The first thing which struck me as having a strong smell of stupid about
it was that the installer had mounted a four pole 30 amp female socket
on an inside garage wall and made my friend a 30 foot flexible cord with
a MALE plug on BOTH ends to use to connect his new generator to that
receptical. The ramifications of using male plug on the house end of
that cable hould be obvious to a blind man.

From the rest of my friend's description I gathered that there was NO
disconnect switch installed. My friend was given instructions to turn
off the main disconnect to the house, and also turn off all the
individual circuit breakers in his panel, then roll the genny outside
the garage, plug in both ends of that cord, start the genny and finally
flip on the breakers for the circuits in his home he needed to use.

From a purely technical aspect, I'm sure that setup will work just fine
when operated by someone who knows exactly what they are doing, but it's
hardly idiot proof if the person using it suffers a "brain fart" and
forgets to take all the proper steps in the correct sequence.

I've heard things are a bit less restrictive in Florida that they are up
here, but I was shocked, just shocked, to hear his description of what
he's got. (Pun intended.)

Can someone confirm that what he's told me describes an setup which
shouldn't be allowed to exist?

Would I be on safe ground telling him he that for everyone's sake he
should do something about making what he's just had put in safer, toot
sweet?

Thanks guys,

Jeff


--
My name is Jeff Wisnia and I approved this message....

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

(some snippage by me)

The first thing which struck me as having a strong smell of
stupid about it was that the installer had mounted a four pole
30 amp female socket on an inside garage wall and made my friend
a 30 foot flexible cord with a MALE plug on BOTH ends to use to
connect his new generator to that receptical. The ramifications
of using male plug on the house end of that cable should be
obvious to a blind man.

From a purely technical aspect, I'm sure that setup will work
just fine when operated by someone who knows exactly what they
are doing, but it's hardly idiot proof if the person using it
suffers a "brain fart" and forgets to take all the proper steps
in the correct sequence.

The 30' connecting cord your friend now owns is sometimes
called a "Dead Man Cord" or "Death Line" or "Suicide Rope",
at least that's some of the names I've heard.

There's a good reason for that!

But first, the double-male cord has so many nicknames because
this particular setup is done often. I used it when I worked
in the cable industry and we had to power a remote antenna site
from the emergency generator on the truck. Something tells me
that OSHA never knew about it.

Is it legal, to code? ???. Being that the fixed receptacle
in the home is probably wired to code, that's likely where it
ends as far as the NEC is concerned. Is it safe? Exactly as
safe you say it is. Does your friend realize that he must
have a totally clear head when he goes to use the thing?, that
having a few beers in him or a family problem on his mind
could fry his ass? He better.

--
The real Tom Pendergast [ So if you meet me, have some courtesy,
aka I-zheet M'drurz [ have some sympathy, and some taste.
Accept no substitutes! [ Use all your well-learned politesse,
$1 to Mick for the .sig ---[ or I'll lay your soul to waste.

I have not looked up the code in a while in my area but most installations
are requireing transfer panels installed with doubled ganged breakers.

Most use the boxes that wire the devices want to backup to, this is cheaper
and prefered if only have a 120V gen since if tying back to main panel in
any way would only power half of the panel anyway and would need to make
sure all needing backed up is on that leg and not good to have both legs of
a 240V source tied to the same phase.

The most expensive way but good if have a big enough gen is to have the
transfer switch at the mains level.

Even if the local code does not require most electric companies may require
it in most places these days I think.



"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

(some snippage by me)

The first thing which struck me as having a strong smell of
stupid about it was that the installer had mounted a four pole
30 amp female socket on an inside garage wall and made my friend
a 30 foot flexible cord with a MALE plug on BOTH ends to use to
connect his new generator to that receptical. The ramifications
of using male plug on the house end of that cable should be
obvious to a blind man.

From a purely technical aspect, I'm sure that setup will work
just fine when operated by someone who knows exactly what they
are doing, but it's hardly idiot proof if the person using it
suffers a "brain fart" and forgets to take all the proper steps
in the correct sequence.

The 30' connecting cord your friend now owns is sometimes
called a "Dead Man Cord" or "Death Line" or "Suicide Rope",
at least that's some of the names I've heard.

There's a good reason for that!

But first, the double-male cord has so many nicknames because
this particular setup is done often. I used it when I worked
in the cable industry and we had to power a remote antenna site
from the emergency generator on the truck. Something tells me
that OSHA never knew about it.

Is it legal, to code? ???. Being that the fixed receptacle
in the home is probably wired to code, that's likely where it
ends as far as the NEC is concerned. Is it safe? Exactly as
safe you say it is. Does your friend realize that he must
have a totally clear head when he goes to use the thing?, that
having a few beers in him or a family problem on his mind
could fry his ass? He better.

--
The real Tom Pendergast [ So if you meet me, have some courtesy,
aka I-zheet M'drurz [ have some sympathy, and some taste.
Accept no substitutes! [ Use all your well-learned politesse,
$1 to Mick for the .sig ---[ or I'll lay your soul to waste.

It wasn't really an electrician who installed it, was it?

Everything about it is illegal everywhere. It has to be impossible to
connect to the genny without first disconnecting the line, and visa versa.

toller wrote:
It wasn't really an electrician who installed it, was it?

Everything about it is illegal everywhere. It has to be impossible to
connect to the genny without first disconnecting the line, and visa versa.



As far as my friend knows thy're licensed. It's a good sized firm he
used, the same group which wired his home when he built it about ten
years ago.

based on what "I-zheet M'drurz" said above, I'm coming to realize that
the electrician's fixed work is probably perfectly legal, and it would
be my friend's actions, not his, which might be illegal or actionable if
he fried a lineman. I forgot to mention that the electrician installed a
double 30 amp breaker in the feed to/from that receptical he installed
in the garage, to match the 30 amp full load rating of the genny my
friend bought. That should make that outlet perfectly legal.

I suppose if someone got fried by that double male plug cord, and it
could be proved without question that it was the electrician who made it
up and sold it to my friend the electrician might be in difficulty
legally, but proving who made it up would likely be near impossible
several years from now, 'eh?

I guess it's like a hiring a contractor to add on a second story porch
for you, with a code height railing. He can't be held responsible if you
decide to stand a potted plant on the corner of the railing which then
gets blown off and causes brain damage to the electric company's meter
reader who happens to be below at the time, not expecting things to fall
on him.

Jeff

--
My name is Jeff Wisnia and I approved this message....

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

toller wrote:
It wasn't really an electrician who installed it, was it?

Everything about it is illegal everywhere. It has to be impossible to
connect to the genny without first disconnecting the line, and visa versa.

It is illegal, unsafe, and, if the power co. finds it he's likely
to lose his service. Linemen have been killed by this. There is
a thread in alt.engineering.electrical titled "Backfeeding with
a portable generator - REAL safety concerns???" started on
9-6-04 that covers this very topic.

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
The first thing which struck me as having a strong smell of stupid about
it was that the installer had mounted a four pole 30 amp female socket
on an inside garage wall and made my friend a 30 foot flexible cord with
a MALE plug on BOTH ends to use to connect his new generator to that
receptical. The ramifications of using male plug on the house end of
that cable hould be obvious to a blind man.
Jeff


Funny you mention this method.

In the Canadian Army Signals Corps, we used to use a double ended dong to
plug into local civilian AC power to fire up out HF radio teletype vehicles,
as opposes to running the generators.

Worked great; as always the drill was to have a very good ground regardless
of power source

did we know it was inheritantly unsafe.....yes. Did that stop us....no.

was it stupid.......yes.


cheers....Ole

"MC" wrote:

I have not looked up the code in a while in my area but most installations
are requireing transfer panels installed with doubled ganged breakers.

Most use the boxes that wire the devices want to backup to, this is cheaper
and prefered if only have a 120V gen since if tying back to main panel in
any way would only power half of the panel anyway and would need to make
sure all needing backed up is on that leg and not good to have both legs of
a 240V source tied to the same phase.

Even cheap ($500) generators will do 240v. Sometimes, like mine,
requires a special plug to tye the neutral to ground, in addition to the
power cords.

Some installations will separate out the critical circuits, so they are
on backup power, and leave lesser and decorative circuits so they go
off. This would be done where run time or fuel consumption is a problem.

In article B_26d.548305$gE.229849@pd7tw3no, --Ole-- wrote:

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
The first thing which struck me as having a strong smell of stupid about
it was that the installer had mounted a four pole 30 amp female socket
on an inside garage wall and made my friend a 30 foot flexible cord with
a MALE plug on BOTH ends to use to connect his new generator to that
receptical. The ramifications of using male plug on the house end of
that cable hould be obvious to a blind man.
Jeff


Funny you mention this method.

In the Canadian Army Signals Corps, we used to use a double ended dong to
plug into local civilian AC power to fire up out HF radio teletype vehicles,
as opposes to running the generators.

Oh really? Like this?

http://www.meatcannon.com/detail/1/3...ck_18inch.html

based on what "I-zheet M'drurz" said above, I'm coming to realize that
the electrician's fixed work is probably perfectly legal, and it would
be my friend's actions, not his, which might be illegal or actionable if
he fried a lineman. I forgot to mention that the electrician installed a
double 30 amp breaker in the feed to/from that receptical he installed
in the garage, to match the 30 amp full load rating of the genny my
friend bought. That should make that outlet perfectly legal.

Yes, assuming they got it inspected, it was legal. All they did was install
a dryer outlet.
Your friend would be the criminal if he ever used it.

I suppose if someone got fried by that double male plug cord, and it
could be proved without question that it was the electrician who made it
up and sold it to my friend the electrician might be in difficulty
legally, but proving who made it up would likely be near impossible
several years from now, 'eh?

He has a receipt for the project, doesn't he?

I guess it's like a hiring a contractor to add on a second story porch
for you, with a code height railing. He can't be held responsible if you
decide to stand a potted plant on the corner of the railing which then
gets blown off and causes brain damage to the electric company's meter
reader who happens to be below at the time, not expecting things to fall
on him.

Your analogy does not hold up.
The electrician installed it specifically for the generator, and provided
instruction and the suicide cord.
I assume he did not get it inspected, for any inspector is going to ask why
they want the outlet in the garage. Most people in better neighborhoods
don't have any legitimate use for a 30a/240a outlet in their garage.
I am not a lawyer, but I would be willing to bet the electrician would be
held liable for any unfortunate results from the installation. It has to be
fit for the purpose intended, and it isn't.

However, the whole thing couldn't have been very expensive and your friend
can always use the wiring to install a proper hook up.
Just out of curiosity, what gauge wire was used? He did everything else
wrong, why not use undersized wire?

toller wrote:
based on what "I-zheet M'drurz" said above, I'm coming to realize that
the electrician's fixed work is probably perfectly legal, and it would
be my friend's actions, not his, which might be illegal or actionable if
he fried a lineman. I forgot to mention that the electrician installed a
double 30 amp breaker in the feed to/from that receptical he installed
in the garage, to match the 30 amp full load rating of the genny my
friend bought. That should make that outlet perfectly legal.


Yes, assuming they got it inspected, it was legal. All they did was install
a dryer outlet.
Your friend would be the criminal if he ever used it.


I suppose if someone got fried by that double male plug cord, and it
could be proved without question that it was the electrician who made it
up and sold it to my friend the electrician might be in difficulty
legally, but proving who made it up would likely be near impossible
several years from now, 'eh?


He has a receipt for the project, doesn't he?

I suppose, but I wonder if it gets as specific as mentioning that double
male cord...And if it does, describes it in enough detail.

I guess it's like a hiring a contractor to add on a second story porch
for you, with a code height railing. He can't be held responsible if you
decide to stand a potted plant on the corner of the railing which then
gets blown off and causes brain damage to the electric company's meter
reader who happens to be below at the time, not expecting things to fall
on him.


Your analogy does not hold up.
The electrician installed it specifically for the generator, and provided
instruction and the suicide cord.
I assume he did not get it inspected, for any inspector is going to ask why
they want the outlet in the garage. Most people in better neighborhoods
don't have any legitimate use for a 30a/240a outlet in their garage.

Not that I disagree with you, but I happen to have just that sort of
outlet in my garage (And, not to brag, it IS in a "better neighborhood")
'Course it's probably the only one in a hundred or so houses nearby. I
needed 230 volts for my old "buzz box stick welder which I occassionally
use for hobby projects.

Fortuitously, the 50 amp fused disconnect for the air handler's
auxillary heaters of one of our heat pump HVAC systems was in a closet
on the other side of the garage rear wall. You can guess the rest. I
just have to make sure not to let the auxillary heat come on while I'm
sparking away. G

I am not a lawyer, but I would be willing to bet the electrician would be
held liable for any unfortunate results from the installation. It has to be
fit for the purpose intended, and it isn't.

However, the whole thing couldn't have been very expensive and your friend
can always use the wiring to install a proper hook up.
Just out of curiosity, what gauge wire was used? He did everything else
wrong, why not use undersized wire?

That much detail (wire size) I haven't heard yet, but I'd expect it was
adequate to carry the 30 amp genny output. I had another chat with my
friend and he said he'd found his next door neighbor and another guy
down the street had almost identical genny hookups, also without idiot
proof transfer switches.

I'm guessing that the labor costs to properly install a typical transfer
switch system, which requires getting at and cutting into each of the
six to ten branch circuits the user elects to power up with the genny is
what would run the electrician's bill through the roof and kill their
deal on selling the homeowner a generator. In homes of that quality the
breaker panels are often sitting in finished walls, which pretty much
says that cutting into branch circuits will require the services of
another trade or two to close things up again.

I think the installers must just take the easy route of "adding a
breaker and a dryer outlet" as near the service panel as they can get,
and don't spend too much time thinking about the downstream liability.

My friend has no recolection of an inspector showing up to look at the
work, but one may have come and gone without their noticing it. Again,
my ignorance of the way things work in Florida leaves me wondering if
that kind of simple "adding a breaker and an 230 volt outlet" job even
requires a post inspection. Maybe someone here will tell us.

Jeff

--
My name is Jeff Wisnia and I approved this message....

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

No Spam wrote:

toller wrote:
It wasn't really an electrician who installed it, was it?

Everything about it is illegal everywhere. It has to be
impossible to connect to the genny without first disconnecting
the line, and visa versa.

It is illegal, unsafe, and, if the power co. finds it he's
likely to lose his service. Linemen have been killed by this.

You can't just say it's "illegal", the outlet itself (assuming
it's wired to code and with proper workmanship) is perfectly
legal. The homeowner backfeeding a generator into that outlet
is beyond the scope of all of that, it has nothing to do with
the safe, legal outlet on the guy's garage wall.

And as somebody else (original poster, I think) has mentioned,
that type of minor work may well fall outside of the need to
get permits and/or inspection in his jurisdiction, as many munis
permit some electrical/plumbing work to be done by homeowners.


--
The real Tom Pendergast [ So if you meet me, have some courtesy,
aka I-zheet M'drurz [ have some sympathy, and some taste.
Accept no substitutes! [ Use all your well-learned politesse,
$1 to Mick for the .sig ---[ or I'll lay your soul to waste.

I-zheet M'drurz wrote:
No Spam wrote:


toller wrote:

It wasn't really an electrician who installed it, was it?

Everything about it is illegal everywhere. It has to be
impossible to connect to the genny without first disconnecting
the line, and visa versa.

It is illegal, unsafe, and, if the power co. finds it he's
likely to lose his service. Linemen have been killed by this.


You can't just say it's "illegal", the outlet itself (assuming
it's wired to code and with proper workmanship) is perfectly
legal. The homeowner backfeeding a generator into that outlet
is beyond the scope of all of that, it has nothing to do with
the safe, legal outlet on the guy's garage wall.

And as somebody else (original poster, I think) has mentioned,
that type of minor work may well fall outside of the need to
get permits and/or inspection in his jurisdiction, as many munis
permit some electrical/plumbing work to be done by homeowners.



Regardless, according to the OP this whole setup was apparently rigged
only to provide power from a portable generator to the house panel. As
such, the entire set up is not legal and is extremely dangerous. I find
it hard to believe that a licensed electrician would risk his lively
hood by installing something like this. Further, if I was the owner of
this home, and the contractor was the same one that wired it when it was
built, then I'd be greatly concerned about about the quality of the
wiring job hidden behind the walls.

It is probably illegal, it is unsafe, it is dumb. Transfer panels
interlock out the main panel and have 2 watt meters so you do not
overload each of the gens 2 legs. Ask your hillbilly friend how he
knows watts consumed and how he is balancing the gen. Also exterior
boxes are water proof, Mine has a Male socket , so when Im drinkin I
dont fry myself on a hot cord

Generac sells a pre wired 6 circuit 2 watt meter complete kit for 200,
it has exterior box, cable , plugs and sockets, A good deal purchased
separatly it woud be 350

It cost me 120 to have the transfer panel instaled It would have been
cheaper but drilling through he house was hard. Mine was prewired and
labeled wires, Generac.

According to Jeff Wisnia :

The first thing which struck me as having a strong smell of stupid about
it was that the installer had mounted a four pole 30 amp female socket
on an inside garage wall and made my friend a 30 foot flexible cord with
a MALE plug on BOTH ends to use to connect his new generator to that
receptical. The ramifications of using male plug on the house end of
that cable hould be obvious to a blind man.

Etcetera.

I'm going to pull together several of the other comments and make a few
of my own.

First off, connecting a generator this way is absolutely code-illegal
everywhere in North America. In Canada, getting caught doing this could
result in a $6K fine and potentially jail time even without it
"doing something bad".

[The electric utilities act of Ontario takes non-code electrical
wiring very seriously if law enforcement want to press charges.]

Worse if you cause damage. Much worse if you hurt or kill someone.

Technically, the electrician could certainly argue that "I just
installed a dryer outlet, what the homeowner does with it is _his_
responsibility". So, in some sense, the electrician _might_ be able to
evade unpleasant consequences.

Trouble is, he knew what it was for - he told the guy to make a suicide
cord. Likely without telling the homeowner that it's bad or why.
That's at least professional malfeasance. Perhaps criminal negligence.
Depends on what happens. And how hard the authorities want to work
it/make an example.

Which if it comes to court, you'll have the homeowner trying to
shift blame to the electrician. Which the electrician may win,
or he may lose. Most likely, both lose.

Losing _may_ mean more than just losing a license. Here, worst case,
BOTH the electrician and the homeowner end up with fines and jail time,
and the electrician will be out of a career when he gets out of jail.

If the homeowner could prove that the electrician advised him to
do it this way, the electrician will "get it" worse than the homeowner.

If he's _really_ luckly. That's poor odds.

Secondly, consider insurance. This is a serious no-no. If that thing
causes a fire or kills someone, do you think an insurance company will
cover it? Not a chance.

Certainly, during an emergency, you gotta do what you gotta do. But
planning and installing an illegal connection ahead of time is going
to knock that excuse down the toilet if anybody gets hurt.

During the great ice storm, I saw worse things when we gave
the worst hit areas some assistance with inspecting home generator
installations. But those were jury-rigged during a dire emergency,
and we made sure that they were as safe as they could possibly be.
Disconnected the scariest one - but fortunately, he was one of the
few who had just gotten power back.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to toller :
I am not a lawyer, but I would be willing to bet the electrician would be
held liable for any unfortunate results from the installation. It has to be
fit for the purpose intended, and it isn't.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be willing to bet that there'd be many
arguments about this during the court case. How much liability
that ultimately lands on the electrician and how much lands
on the homeowner is a crapshoot, pure and simple.

To paraphrase Clint: Does he feel lucky?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:

Certainly, during an emergency, you gotta do what you gotta do. But
planning and installing an illegal connection ahead of time is going
to knock that excuse down the toilet if anybody gets hurt.

During the great ice storm, I saw worse things when we gave
the worst hit areas some assistance with inspecting home generator
installations. But those were jury-rigged during a dire emergency,
and we made sure that they were as safe as they could possibly be.
Disconnected the scariest one - but fortunately, he was one of the
few who had just gotten power back.

Is it still illegal (notice I didn't ask if it was stupid or dangerous)
if you pull the electric meter before connecting the generator? Then
you are isolated from the utility grid, in fact more isolated than if
you had a transfer switch because those could theoretically fail.

You might have trouble getting the utility to reseal the meter, but I
don't think that would be a problem after a protracted power outage (the
"gotta do what you gotta do" principle)

Bob

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Jeff Wisnia :


The first thing which struck me as having a strong smell of stupid about
it was that the installer had mounted a four pole 30 amp female socket
on an inside garage wall and made my friend a 30 foot flexible cord with
a MALE plug on BOTH ends to use to connect his new generator to that
receptical. The ramifications of using male plug on the house end of
that cable hould be obvious to a blind man.


Etcetera.

I'm going to pull together several of the other comments and make a few
of my own.

First off, connecting a generator this way is absolutely code-illegal
everywhere in North America. In Canada, getting caught doing this could
result in a $6K fine and potentially jail time even without it
"doing something bad".

[The electric utilities act of Ontario takes non-code electrical
wiring very seriously if law enforcement want to press charges.]

Worse if you cause damage. Much worse if you hurt or kill someone.

Technically, the electrician could certainly argue that "I just
installed a dryer outlet, what the homeowner does with it is _his_
responsibility". So, in some sense, the electrician _might_ be able to
evade unpleasant consequences.

Trouble is, he knew what it was for - he told the guy to make a suicide
cord. Likely without telling the homeowner that it's bad or why.
That's at least professional malfeasance. Perhaps criminal negligence.
Depends on what happens. And how hard the authorities want to work
it/make an example.

Which if it comes to court, you'll have the homeowner trying to
shift blame to the electrician. Which the electrician may win,
or he may lose. Most likely, both lose.

Losing _may_ mean more than just losing a license. Here, worst case,
BOTH the electrician and the homeowner end up with fines and jail time,
and the electrician will be out of a career when he gets out of jail.

If the homeowner could prove that the electrician advised him to
do it this way, the electrician will "get it" worse than the homeowner.

If he's _really_ luckly. That's poor odds.

Secondly, consider insurance. This is a serious no-no. If that thing
causes a fire or kills someone, do you think an insurance company will
cover it? Not a chance.

Certainly, during an emergency, you gotta do what you gotta do. But
planning and installing an illegal connection ahead of time is going
to knock that excuse down the toilet if anybody gets hurt.

During the great ice storm, I saw worse things when we gave
the worst hit areas some assistance with inspecting home generator
installations. But those were jury-rigged during a dire emergency,
and we made sure that they were as safe as they could possibly be.
Disconnected the scariest one - but fortunately, he was one of the
few who had just gotten power back.


Thanks, Cris and the others for confirming what I strongly suspected
when I made the OP on this thread.

I'm going to tell my friend all the reasons reasons he should get that
setup changed over to use a transfer switch system of whatever size is
required for him to power up as many circuits he feels necessary to have
during a power outage, within the limits of the 7.5 KW genny he now
owns. That should be big enough to handle his well pump, a few lights,
and the refrigerator.

My friend has relied on me for technical advice for over thirty years
now, as I have on his medical knowledge and skills, which has included
his patching up my body and bones more than once.G

I know he can easily afford to get the job redone right so that his
family can enjoy their well earned retirement with peace of mind.

I was a little suprised that the "owners committee" in the gated
community he chose to build in didn't have rules about such things
already in place. I guess they are just a bunch of well to do
non-techies who know just enough to fret about and bug the property
owners over things like roof shingles looking faded and the necessity
for frequent grooming of their shrubs.G

Thanks again guys,

Jeff

--
My name is Jeff Wisnia and I approved this message....

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

According to zxcvbob :
Chris Lewis wrote:

Certainly, during an emergency, you gotta do what you gotta do. But
planning and installing an illegal connection ahead of time is going
to knock that excuse down the toilet if anybody gets hurt.

During the great ice storm, I saw worse things when we gave
the worst hit areas some assistance with inspecting home generator
installations. But those were jury-rigged during a dire emergency,
and we made sure that they were as safe as they could possibly be.
Disconnected the scariest one - but fortunately, he was one of the
few who had just gotten power back.

Is it still illegal (notice I didn't ask if it was stupid or dangerous)
if you pull the electric meter before connecting the generator? Then
you are isolated from the utility grid, in fact more isolated than if
you had a transfer switch because those could theoretically fail.

You might have trouble getting the utility to reseal the meter, but I
don't think that would be a problem after a protracted power outage (the
"gotta do what you gotta do" principle)

Under "normal conditions", dicking around with your electric meter
would be presumed to be in aid of bypassing the meter. Especially
with the profusion of Grow Ops. I'd presume it's still illegal in
those places where it ever was illegal, or at least a possible invitation
to get the police to tear your house apart.

However, a power company is going to look pretty stupid prosecuting
people for asking for the meter to be reinstalled/resealed after a
power failure took out the whole _state_.

I've seen power companies _themselves_ say "you gotta
do what you gotta do, be damn careful, and we'll reconnect it for
you later no charge" in less dire situations.

[One example being finishing off a panel switchover that just
happened to collide with a power company strike, and they couldn't
supply anybody to move the feed.]

If in doubt, and to be on the safe side, I'd ask the power company.
If you can get through...

Of the generator connections we "inspected", by far the biggest
one was the one we made ourselves. Most of the generator setups
were portable 3-6Kw rigs. We were asked to install one for the
township in the "garage".

Thinking it's a little dinky 10Kw unit to go into a "garage",
the garage turned out to be the "public works installation".
Think: highway service depot. With a 200A service.

I'm having a smoke waiting for the generator, and this
70' tractor trailer pulls up with this enormous "thing" on it.

"Whassat?" I ask stupidly. "Your generator" was the reply.

Oh.... my....

The "thing" was a soil screener with a 200Kw 600V 3 phase generator.

Fortunately, the guy driving it knew how to connect it to a
transformer he had with him to drive 220V single phase ("sorry,
the transformer is only 75Kw". "So what? This whole building
can only take 40Kw!").

As I recall, we disconnected the output of the main disconnect,
taped off all the wire ends, and secured them safely.
Then spliced the 4-ought feeder cable directly into the input
of the 200A mains breaker.

[Spent about two hours doing a 15 minute job just to make
certain we (a) knew what we were doing before we did it,
(b) tested everything every step of the way and (c) made
the result as safe as we possibly could.]

We were surrounded by township workers, police and the military.

Instead of getting shot at, we got quite a round of cheering
when the whole place lit up, and they didn't have to dig road
salt and pump fuel by hand anymore. Not to mention being
warm and being able to get water.

That generator ran for over 3 weeks.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

My friend has no recolection of an inspector showing up to look at the
work, but one may have come and gone without their noticing it. Again,
my ignorance of the way things work in Florida leaves me wondering if
that kind of simple "adding a breaker and an 230 volt outlet" job even
requires a post inspection. Maybe someone here will tell us.

It would be unusual to get an inspection for a new outlet. However, it is
probably a legal requirement. Your friend can find out by calling the town
building department (though right now they probably have more important
things to do). Should your friend chose to go to small claims court over
this, the fact they did it illegally (without an inspection that is) would
help.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Jeff Wisnia :


The first thing which struck me as having a strong smell of stupid
about it was that the installer had mounted a four pole 30 amp female
socket on an inside garage wall and made my friend a 30 foot flexible
cord with a MALE plug on BOTH ends to use to connect his new
generator to that receptical. The ramifications of using male plug on
the house end of that cable hould be obvious to a blind man.



Etcetera.

I'm going to pull together several of the other comments and make a few
of my own.

First off, connecting a generator this way is absolutely code-illegal
everywhere in North America. In Canada, getting caught doing this could
result in a $6K fine and potentially jail time even without it
"doing something bad".

[The electric utilities act of Ontario takes non-code electrical
wiring very seriously if law enforcement want to press charges.]

Worse if you cause damage. Much worse if you hurt or kill someone.

Technically, the electrician could certainly argue that "I just
installed a dryer outlet, what the homeowner does with it is _his_
responsibility". So, in some sense, the electrician _might_ be able to
evade unpleasant consequences.

Trouble is, he knew what it was for - he told the guy to make a suicide
cord. Likely without telling the homeowner that it's bad or why.
That's at least professional malfeasance. Perhaps criminal
negligence. Depends on what happens. And how hard the authorities
want to work
it/make an example.

Which if it comes to court, you'll have the homeowner trying to
shift blame to the electrician. Which the electrician may win,
or he may lose. Most likely, both lose.

Losing _may_ mean more than just losing a license. Here, worst case,
BOTH the electrician and the homeowner end up with fines and jail time,
and the electrician will be out of a career when he gets out of jail.

If the homeowner could prove that the electrician advised him to
do it this way, the electrician will "get it" worse than the homeowner.

If he's _really_ luckly. That's poor odds.

Secondly, consider insurance. This is a serious no-no. If that thing
causes a fire or kills someone, do you think an insurance company will
cover it? Not a chance.

Certainly, during an emergency, you gotta do what you gotta do. But
planning and installing an illegal connection ahead of time is going
to knock that excuse down the toilet if anybody gets hurt.

During the great ice storm, I saw worse things when we gave
the worst hit areas some assistance with inspecting home generator
installations. But those were jury-rigged during a dire emergency,
and we made sure that they were as safe as they could possibly be.
Disconnected the scariest one - but fortunately, he was one of the
few who had just gotten power back.



Thanks, Cris and the others for confirming what I strongly suspected
when I made the OP on this thread.

I'm going to tell my friend all the reasons reasons he should get that
setup changed over to use a transfer switch system of whatever size is
required for him to power up as many circuits he feels necessary to have
during a power outage, within the limits of the 7.5 KW genny he now
owns. That should be big enough to handle his well pump, a few lights,
and the refrigerator.

My friend has relied on me for technical advice for over thirty years
now, as I have on his medical knowledge and skills, which has included
his patching up my body and bones more than once.G

I know he can easily afford to get the job redone right so that his
family can enjoy their well earned retirement with peace of mind.

I was a little suprised that the "owners committee" in the gated
community he chose to build in didn't have rules about such things
already in place. I guess they are just a bunch of well to do
non-techies who know just enough to fret about and bug the property
owners over things like roof shingles looking faded and the necessity
for frequent grooming of their shrubs.G

Thanks again guys,

Jeff

Jeff
Check and tell me what brand of electrical panel your friend has. If it
is SquareD with an M1 or M2 main breaker they make an interlock for it
so that all that would need to be done to make it reasonably safe is to
install the interlock kit and change the dryer outlet to a flanged inlet
of the same configuration as the generators largest 240 volt outlet.
One hour and one hundred dollars will make the whole thing US NEC
compliant and reasonably safe.
--
Tom H