clipped

I noticed after the high winds began, only the news media
(satellite trucks) were visible and you didn't even see
any police cars or fire trucks along Route 1 or A-1-A.
Are the rescue (emergency workers) ordered to stay put?

As I write this at 2:20 am Eastern time, over 800,000
residents in FL are without power, and it's getting worse
by the hour. Will it take weeks to get back to normal,
whatever that is?

Edwin

I had the good fortune to be out of work, a few years ago, and without
city water or electricity. Fortunately, I had a good supply of candles,
blankets and kerosene for lamps. December; outside temp 32. Heating
water is easy - put a pan on shelf in the oven, place votive candle on
shelf below it. Works for a can of Beanie Weenies, too ) If yer only
problem is no electricity, consider yourself fortunate. It is good
training. You can bathe in two cups of room-temp. water, although it
will not be up to normal standards )

At first, Miami-Dade had the toughest standards, after H. Andrew. Then
other areas adopted tougher rules, and the state got tougher. In our
neighborhood, flood zones have far stricter rules for new construction
and for remodels. Ground floor in flood zone has to be concrete, and
not a habitable space. If a structure is repaired or remodeled more
than 50%, it has to be raised up on stilts. The condo next to us is
four stories - all units have ground level entry, and each is four
stories to top level. Bottom level is garage and storage. A bunch of
owners made their ground-level storage space into family rooms.
Insurance company made them remove all the "improvements". Gotta be
into fitness to live on four levels ) City is lazy about enforcing
code, but I guess some ins. companies do it.

Our county doesn't like emergency people out when wind is over 40 mph.,
I think. Bridges are dangerous, and ambulances blow over. One of the
very good reasons for "mandatory" evacuations. The idiots who ignore
them, and then dial 911 when the going gets tough must think it is all
just for fun. Our county is reviewing employment of a bunch of public
health folks who didn't show up for work at shelters, which is part of
the disaster plan to provide for medical needs. My hubby stayed home
during Frances, whilst I went with friend to a motel on high ground. He
was going to protect his property with 12' storm surge, 20' waves and
100 mph wind. If I have a choice, I will not die by drowning or by
being crushed in a building that collapses. I'm waiting for Jeanne to
blow by. Last weekend was great - no hurricanes ) I'm still hoping the
next hurricane blows away all those touch-screen "voting" machines.

Buried lines have a tendency to go underwater in a place where the static water
table is 4 or 5 feet down on a dry day. Notice we don't have a lot of basements
either.
It is a lot faster to repair a poler than it is to wait for the water table to
drop enough to work on a buried line.

"Greg" wrote in message
...
Buried lines have a tendency to go underwater in a place where the static
water
table is 4 or 5 feet down on a dry day. Notice we don't have a lot of
basements
either.
It is a lot faster to repair a poler than it is to wait for the water
table to
drop enough to work on a buried line.


My son lives in Coral Springs where all the cables are buried and he has
never had a power outage, even in hurricane weather. And to boot, Coral
Springs is in a flood zone.

Amy D wrote in
:



JerryL wrote:

"Rich Greenberg" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Amy D wrote:


Are underground utilities common in the FL area? Does that help
reduce the outages when Mother Nature strikes back?

In some areas of GA, all utilities are underground and power outages
are rare in storms. I haven't had an outage of more than a few
minutes since the ice storm in Jan 2000 when I was out a few hours.



Undergroung lines are a rarity in Florida. They'd rather spend 3
billion dollars four times to repair the lines than 12 billion to
bury them and not have anymore problems.


The same mentality in Alabama.

amy

Some of the *buried* water pipes in Winter Park,FL.(Orlando) were broken
when trees were blown over.That could happen to electic lines,too.
Buried electric lines are not problem-free.(but,yes,they are less
vulnerable to these storms.)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

From: (Kurt Ullman)


In article , (Rich
Greenberg) wrote:

Can't say exactly, but usually during thundershorms, the power will go
out, usually for a few seconds, occasionally as long as a minute or 2.
Just long enough for my PC to reboot before I put in a UPS.
The actual grid is redundant (as you can see in reverse in the
discussion of how all the redundancies mainly failed redundantly
during the Blackout a couple years ago). Sorta like having a limb
fall in the middle of a busy road. After a couple of minutes, cars
figure out the detour and traffic begins to run again.
However, if the limb falls over your driveway, then you are stuck
until someone comes along (after the roadways are cleared) and moves
the limb from your driveway.

If the utils are underground, and you lose power because a line
fell somewhere else above ground, then the power is just rerouted
around the problem. Most of the times when underground utils are
lost for extended periods (say more than an hour) it is is because
some idiot with a backhoe took out the line.

--

In a perfect world, yes. But the world isn't perfect.

Not all utility lines are built into a "ring" and many primaries are simply
linear.
"Salary is the only biological variable which peaks
after the age of 25. Somebody once suggested female libido is another
but I completely reject that because female libido and salary are
not independent variables."
Dr. Neil Barnes

Trees are the biggest danger to power lines, underground or above. The problem
is people like trees and quickly forget the weeks they spent in the dark when
they replant. If the power company starts trimming them people lose their
minds.
Buried utilities even make this battle harder because people don't see the
danger of the tree until it falls and drags up all those conduits, pipes or
whatever.

That's when
lightning hit the aboveground transmissions lines,

Underground lines are not immune from lightning. The study done at UCF showed
lines can still be hit if they are 6' down. They do have some cool collections
of fused glass tubes where lightning did blast it's way through the sand we
call dirt here.

From: "dadiOH"


The recent problems have less to do with low voltage lines to homes (what
could be underground) than high voltage transmission lines and sub-stations.
Can't put those underground.

--
dadiOH

No? All of Con-Ed's lines in NYC are underground. And often, 347,500 volt lines
shared the same manholes as 28,000, 12,500, and 277/480 or 120/208 volt lines.

From: Ted
Date: 9/27/2004 12:13 AM


dadiOH wrote:

JerryL wrote:
"Rich Greenberg" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Amy D wrote:


Are underground utilities common in the FL area? Does that help
reduce the outages when Mother Nature strikes back?

In some areas of GA, all utilities are underground and power
outages are rare in storms. I haven't had an outage of more than
a few minutes since the ice storm in Jan 2000 when I was out a few
hours.


Undergroung lines are a rarity in Florida. They'd rather spend 3
billion dollars four times to repair the lines than 12 billion to
bury them and not have anymore problems.

The recent problems have less to do with low voltage lines to homes (what
could be underground) than high voltage transmission lines and
sub-stations.
Can't put those underground.

Yes you can. For example, a Massachusetts electric utility (NSTAR) is
preparing
to build an 345 kilovolt underground transmission line.
http://www.nstaronline.com/construction/summary.asp
Of course local conditions (e.g. high water table) might not be condusive to
underground electric lines.

Water tables schmwater tables.
They put many of these transmission lines right on the ocean/river/lake/sound
floor!

Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article , "JerryL"
wrote:


companies from Alabama, Georgia and the Carolinas. This time, these states
have their hands full restoring power to their own states after Hurricane
Ivan devastated them so our power company will have to go it alone, thus the
big delays.



FWIW, the Indy paper has had some articles on Indiana area
electrical crews heading south to help with the clean up. We were
heading down to Destin a couple of years ago after a near miss and
saw convoys or utillity trucks (some with Detroit Edison on the
side) heading back from their staging area when they weren't
needed). Utilities have their own mutal aid pacts, too.


We just got our power back on about an hour ago, then off, on, off, on,
..........Florida power isn't reliable on a good day. Our area operates
on max limit, lots of surges and flickers. I heard on the news
yesterday.....battery radio.....a piece about the hours power co.
employees have been working. They got to 16 hours on, 8 off, then 24
on, 8 off. Didn't learn the area they were speaking of,but that is
approaching danger levels IMO. The land of retirees voted down tax
measures that would have built roads, schools, bridges, etc., and now
have been playing catchup to try to meet the dense population's needs.
Over saturated, over built. Lots of folks bought into areas that are
really risky environmentally....barrier islands move, but folks want
them to stay in place. Not nature's way )

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the
ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke

(Greg) wrote in
:

That's when
lightning hit the aboveground transmissions lines,

Underground lines are not immune from lightning. The study done at UCF
showed lines can still be hit if they are 6' down. They do have some
cool collections of fused glass tubes where lightning did blast it's
way through the sand we call dirt here.


Called fulgurites,and NOVA did a neat show on lightning and it's effects
on power lines.(also a neat rocketry exibition)

several Florida universities are doing such research.

Central Florida is the lightning capital of the US.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

HA HA Budys Here wrote:
From: "dadiOH"


The recent problems have less to do with low voltage lines to
homes (what could be underground) than high voltage transmission
lines and sub-stations. Can't put those underground.

--
dadiOH

No? All of Con-Ed's lines in NYC are underground.

And how about the rest of the grid?

--
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

This is really a dumb discussion. As folks have pointed out newer neighborhoods
are getting underground service and they are not going to dig up old
neighborhoods to do it. To start with utility maps are bad enough that they
would be digging up something else about once a mile and there are simply so
many things in existing right of ways that they are usually scared to dig even
if they know where things are.
Pretty much all of the underground stuff here is directional bored and that
ain't cheap.

From: "dadiOH"


HA HA Budys Here wrote:
From: "dadiOH"


The recent problems have less to do with low voltage lines to
homes (what could be underground) than high voltage transmission
lines and sub-stations. Can't put those underground.

--
dadiOH

No? All of Con-Ed's lines in NYC are underground.

And how about the rest of the grid?

--
dadiOH

All of them, including the lines from 6 new power plants currently under
construction.

HA HA Budys Here wrote:
From: "dadiOH"


HA HA Budys Here wrote:
From: "dadiOH"


The recent problems have less to do with low voltage lines to
homes (what could be underground) than high voltage transmission
lines and sub-stations. Can't put those underground.

--
dadiOH

No? All of Con-Ed's lines in NYC are underground.

And how about the rest of the grid?

--
dadiOH

All of them, including the lines from 6 new power plants currently
under construction.

Rest of the state too? Whole eastern seaboard?

--
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
HA HA Budys Here wrote:
From: "dadiOH"


HA HA Budys Here wrote:
From: "dadiOH"


The recent problems have less to do with low voltage lines to
homes (what could be underground) than high voltage transmission
lines and sub-stations. Can't put those underground.

--
dadiOH

No? All of Con-Ed's lines in NYC are underground.

And how about the rest of the grid?

--
dadiOH

All of them, including the lines from 6 new power plants currently
under construction.

Rest of the state too? Whole eastern seaboard?

--
dadiOH
____________________________

There has been a big fight going on in Connecticut about 69 miles of 345KV
line to be run through part of the state, primarily to get more power to
Long Island across the Sound. The power company involved has already
committed to burying 44 miles, most of which goes through one of the most
affluent areas of the country. Draw your own conclusion.

From: "dadiOH"


HA HA Budys Here wrote:
From: "dadiOH"


HA HA Budys Here wrote:
From: "dadiOH"


The recent problems have less to do with low voltage lines to
homes (what could be underground) than high voltage transmission
lines and sub-stations. Can't put those underground.

--
dadiOH

No? All of Con-Ed's lines in NYC are underground.

And how about the rest of the grid?

--
dadiOH

All of them, including the lines from 6 new power plants currently
under construction.

Rest of the state too? Whole eastern seaboard?

--
dadiOH

Read again:

"All of Con-Ed's lines ***in NYC*** are underground."

From: "Martin"


"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
HA HA Budys Here wrote:
From: "dadiOH"


HA HA Budys Here wrote:
From: "dadiOH"


The recent problems have less to do with low voltage lines to
homes (what could be underground) than high voltage transmission
lines and sub-stations. Can't put those underground.

--
dadiOH

No? All of Con-Ed's lines in NYC are underground.

And how about the rest of the grid?

--
dadiOH

All of them, including the lines from 6 new power plants currently
under construction.

Rest of the state too? Whole eastern seaboard?

--
dadiOH
____________________________

There has been a big fight going on in Connecticut about 69 miles of 345KV
line to be run through part of the state, primarily to get more power to
Long Island across the Sound. The power company involved has already
committed to burying 44 miles, most of which goes through one of the most
affluent areas of the country. Draw your own conclusion.

Well, one conclusion jumps out - some people think they're above having to look
at miles of unsightly transmission lines.

Across the great plains is one thing, but let's face it, if there's a better
way (asthetically) to run power, telephone and other communication lines, why
shouldn't it be employed?

"All of Con-Ed's lines ***in NYC*** are underground."


And how deep is the water table?

Want some real life experience that is about 3 hours old. They just told my
daughter in West Palm Beach her power will be out for at least another week but
the people in the next buildong over had it's power on the next day after
Jeanne. Hers is underground, the power next door was overhead. It took a guy in
a bucket truck about 15 minutes to fix it.
If you think this is internet bull**** call and ask when the power at
4798 Sea Oats circle
West Palm Beach 33417
Will be back on and then ask why.

From: (Greg)


"All of Con-Ed's lines ***in NYC*** are underground."


And how deep is the water table?

Under Manhattan? Are you kidding? Think "Bathtub wall" they had to build around
the WTC to keep the Hudson out of the basement before construction could begin.

Most of Manhattan South of Houston St, is landfill, and all of Battery Park
City is built at water level on top of the WTC's excavation material.

Thousands of transmission cables are buried underwater. And despite what is
visable on telephome poles, most communications cables are buried as well.

Want some real life experience that is about 3 hours old. They just told my
daughter in West Palm Beach her power will be out for at least another week
but
the people in the next buildong over had it's power on the next day after
Jeanne. Hers is underground, the power next door was overhead. It took a guy
in
a bucket truck about 15 minutes to fix it.
If you think this is internet bull**** call and ask when the power at
4798 Sea Oats circle
West Palm Beach 33417
Will be back on and then ask why.

I know why. Her underground distribution is fed from overhead somewhere else,
and that somewhere else is in shambles. Are you suggesting that had her power
been overhead and exposed, she'd be lit now?

Are you suggesting that had her power
been overhead and exposed, she'd be lit now?


Absolutely. This is an apartment complex fed from the same main feeder off the
street. All the above ground fed units are up, the underground fed units are
down.
They could fix the down lines fast but they didn't have time to screw with the
underground stuff.