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#21
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#22
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In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:21:00 -0400, Wade Garrett
wrote: A couple of years ago, I replaced a pair of little-used (and only during the summer) standard 20 amp Leviton 3-way toggle light switches controlling a Hunter Original ceiling fan because at least one of the switches had failed. By failed, you mean that the fan didn't go on at all?? Not that it woudln't turn off or was intermittent And you didn't hear sparking or see it through the handle. I installed the same then-current model Levitons and everything worked fine for a few years. And don't you know, at least one of them has just now failed! The original switches and the fan were installed during a room addition construction project by a licensed electrician hired by the general contractor whom we've used for years and does very good work. You replaced both when surely only one was broken? What are the chances of this being just a random second switch failure vs. needing to get an electrician out to check it over? |
#23
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writes:
On 6/15/21 3:22 PM, Marilyn Manson wrote: On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 3:03:08 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 14:39:07 -0400, Wade Garrett wrote: On 6/15/21 1:32 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote: Wade Garrett writes: On 6/15/21 11:44 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote: Marilyn Manson writes: On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:54:31 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote: Wade Garrett writes: A couple of years ago, I replaced a pair of little-used (and only during the summer) standard 20 amp Leviton 3-way toggle light switches controlling a Hunter Original ceiling fan because at least one of the switches had failed. I installed the same then-current model Levitons and everything worked fine for a few years. And don't you know, at least one of them has just now failed! The original switches and the fan were installed during a room addition construction project by a licensed electrician hired by the general contractor whom we've used for years and does very good work. What are the chances of this being just a random second switch failure vs. needing to get an electrician out to check it over? The chances are high that you've got a problem that should be looked at. Just for the sake of discussion, what problems can you think of that would break a 3-way switch? Obvious signs of arcing, loose connections, etc. 'nuf said. Two failures on something as ultra-reliable as a Leviton switch? Was the correct switch chosen for the application? Switching motor loads isn't the normal job for a residential light switch. What would be the right switch to use? It's a 20 amp switch on a 20 amp circuit. There are several outlets on that circuit-- but the fan is the only thing the switch controls. Hunter says the fan draws 2 amps. When you say 'failed', what do you mean? Does the switch physically allow the toggle to move, or is it stuck? Does it move, but not close the contacts (failed off) or move but not open the contacts (failed on)? The fan only turns if the A switch and the B switch are both in the DOWN position. The fan does not turn with any if the other possible combinations of UPs and DOWNs. We are assuming it worked OK for a while and quit, you do seem to have one switch that is not switching. Do they both feel the same when you operate them? The other possibility is a bad connection on one of the travelers. Did they use the screws or stabbed Does Leviton even make back-stabbed 3-way switches? I wouldn't expect a 20A spec or commercial grade switch to have back-stabbed holes available. Yes they do. See https://www.leviton.com/en/products/1223-lhw "20 Amp, 120 Volt, Toggle Lighted Handle - Illuminated OFF 3-Way AC Quiet Switch, Industrial Grade, Self Grounding, Back & Side Wired, - White" Back-wired is _very_ different from back-stabbed. The former uses a pressure plate and a screw to connect the conductor, while the latter has a cheap copper clip that "grabs" the wire when inserted. The former is legal for all uses (and far more convenient than side wiring, particularly when using stranded THHN). |
#24
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#25
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In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Jun 2021 13:03:21 -0700 (PDT), Marilyn
Manson wrote: On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 3:41:28 PM UTC-4, wrote: On 6/15/21 3:22 PM, Marilyn Manson wrote: On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 3:03:08 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 14:39:07 -0400, Wade Garrett wrote: On 6/15/21 1:32 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote: Wade Garrett writes: On 6/15/21 11:44 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote: Marilyn Manson writes: On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:54:31 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote: Wade Garrett writes: A couple of years ago, I replaced a pair of little-used (and only during the summer) standard 20 amp Leviton 3-way toggle light switches controlling a Hunter Original ceiling fan because at least one of the switches had failed. I installed the same then-current model Levitons and everything worked fine for a few years. And don't you know, at least one of them has just now failed! The original switches and the fan were installed during a room addition construction project by a licensed electrician hired by the general contractor whom we've used for years and does very good work. What are the chances of this being just a random second switch failure vs. needing to get an electrician out to check it over? The chances are high that you've got a problem that should be looked at. Just for the sake of discussion, what problems can you think of that would break a 3-way switch? Obvious signs of arcing, loose connections, etc. 'nuf said. Two failures on something as ultra-reliable as a Leviton switch? Was the correct switch chosen for the application? Switching motor loads isn't the normal job for a residential light switch. What would be the right switch to use? It's a 20 amp switch on a 20 amp circuit. There are several outlets on that circuit-- but the fan is the only thing the switch controls. Hunter says the fan draws 2 amps. When you say 'failed', what do you mean? Does the switch physically allow the toggle to move, or is it stuck? Does it move, but not close the contacts (failed off) or move but not open the contacts (failed on)? The fan only turns if the A switch and the B switch are both in the DOWN position. The fan does not turn with any if the other possible combinations of UPs and DOWNs. We are assuming it worked OK for a while and quit, you do seem to have one switch that is not switching. Do they both feel the same when you operate them? The other possibility is a bad connection on one of the travelers. Did they use the screws or stabbed Does Leviton even make back-stabbed 3-way switches? I wouldn't expect a 20A spec or commercial grade switch to have back-stabbed holes available. Yes they do. See https://www.leviton.com/en/products/1223-lhw "20 Amp, 120 Volt, Toggle Lighted Handle - Illuminated OFF 3-Way AC Quiet Switch, Industrial Grade, Self Grounding, Back & Side Wired, - White" Back wired is not the same as back-stabbed. Back wired often (usually, these days?) means that the wire is inserted under a plate from the back of the device and the screw is then tightened, securing the wire. Back-stabbed means that there is a hole in the back of the device that contains a sharp metal tab that bends as the wire is inserted and then digs into the wire to hold it in place. They are known to be problematic. The 1223-LHW has the plate, therefore it is not a back-stab device. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...447190#overlay You have proved your point, not back-stabbed. Look how wide that thing is. I haven't seen one that wid for 50 years. The way I look at it, one switch out of a million fails, and the chances of getting two in a row are 1/1,000,000 squared. One in a trillion, divided by 2 since the OP has 4 of them, not just 2. There are probably 500 billion lightswitches in the world. I have 19 in this little house alone. And in addition to residences, there are billions of workplaces. |
#26
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In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Jun 2021 07:57:35 -0700 (PDT), Marilyn
Manson wrote: On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:21:07 AM UTC-4, Wade Garrett wrote: A couple of years ago, I replaced a pair of little-used (and only during the summer) standard 20 amp Leviton 3-way toggle light switches controlling a Hunter Original ceiling fan because at least one of the switches had failed. I installed the same then-current model Levitons and everything worked fine for a few years. And don't you know, at least one of them has just now failed! The original switches and the fan were installed during a room addition construction project by a licensed electrician hired by the general contractor whom we've used for years and does very good work. What are the chances of this being just a random second switch failure vs. needing to get an electrician out to check it over? For the price of a switch vs. an electrician, I'd give at least one more switch a try - Absolutely. $3 vs. $100, plus it's not even easier to call an electrician. You have be there up to half a day waiting for him. It's easier to buy one and put it in when you have 10 spare minutes. and I'm as anal as they come about finding the root cause. I've had problems with various Leviton devices, including exhaust fan humidistat switches and smart dimmer plugs. Granted, those devices are a bit more complicated than a 3-way switch, but if the company quality control issues, it could be product-line wide. I don't think anything electrical has broken in the 38 years I've been here. Except the flood light fixture on the side of the house, 2 or maybe 3 of them, in sequence, and the outside front door fixture, but it's got photocell control and that's the source of the problem for both that failed. No switches have failed. |
#27
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On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 5:41:34 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Jun 2021 13:03:21 -0700 (PDT), Marilyn Manson wrote: On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 3:41:28 PM UTC-4, wrote: On 6/15/21 3:22 PM, Marilyn Manson wrote: On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 3:03:08 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 14:39:07 -0400, Wade Garrett wrote: On 6/15/21 1:32 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote: Wade Garrett writes: On 6/15/21 11:44 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote: Marilyn Manson writes: On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:54:31 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote: Wade Garrett writes: A couple of years ago, I replaced a pair of little-used (and only during the summer) standard 20 amp Leviton 3-way toggle light switches controlling a Hunter Original ceiling fan because at least one of the switches had failed. I installed the same then-current model Levitons and everything worked fine for a few years. And don't you know, at least one of them has just now failed! The original switches and the fan were installed during a room addition construction project by a licensed electrician hired by the general contractor whom we've used for years and does very good work. What are the chances of this being just a random second switch failure vs. needing to get an electrician out to check it over? The chances are high that you've got a problem that should be looked at. Just for the sake of discussion, what problems can you think of that would break a 3-way switch? Obvious signs of arcing, loose connections, etc. 'nuf said. Two failures on something as ultra-reliable as a Leviton switch? Was the correct switch chosen for the application? Switching motor loads isn't the normal job for a residential light switch. What would be the right switch to use? It's a 20 amp switch on a 20 amp circuit. There are several outlets on that circuit-- but the fan is the only thing the switch controls. Hunter says the fan draws 2 amps. When you say 'failed', what do you mean? Does the switch physically allow the toggle to move, or is it stuck? Does it move, but not close the contacts (failed off) or move but not open the contacts (failed on)? The fan only turns if the A switch and the B switch are both in the DOWN position. The fan does not turn with any if the other possible combinations of UPs and DOWNs. We are assuming it worked OK for a while and quit, you do seem to have one switch that is not switching. Do they both feel the same when you operate them? The other possibility is a bad connection on one of the travelers. Did they use the screws or stabbed Does Leviton even make back-stabbed 3-way switches? I wouldn't expect a 20A spec or commercial grade switch to have back-stabbed holes available. Yes they do. See https://www.leviton.com/en/products/1223-lhw "20 Amp, 120 Volt, Toggle Lighted Handle - Illuminated OFF 3-Way AC Quiet Switch, Industrial Grade, Self Grounding, Back & Side Wired, - White" Back wired is not the same as back-stabbed. Back wired often (usually, these days?) means that the wire is inserted under a plate from the back of the device and the screw is then tightened, securing the wire. Back-stabbed means that there is a hole in the back of the device that contains a sharp metal tab that bends as the wire is inserted and then digs into the wire to hold it in place. They are known to be problematic. The 1223-LHW has the plate, therefore it is not a back-stab device. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...447190#overlay You have proved your point, not back-stabbed. Look how wide that thing is. I haven't seen one that wid for 50 years. You are aware that this is a 3-way switch, don't you? The way I look at it, one switch out of a million fails, ....and what makes you look at it that way? Any data to back that up? and the chances of getting two in a row are 1/1,000,000 squared. One in a trillion, divided by 2 since the OP has 4 of them, not just 2. There are probably 500 billion lightswitches in the world. If all your calculations are based on the original unsubstantiated "one out of a million" WAG, then they too are unsubstantiated. I have 19 in this little house alone. And in addition to residences, there are billions of workplaces. You have 19 Leviton 20A 3-way switches? Shouldn't that be either 18 or 20? What's the point of using a single 3-way switch? |
#28
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Marilyn Manson writes:
On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 5:41:34 PM UTC-4, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Jun 2021 13:03:21 -0700 (PDT), Marilyn Manson wrote: The 1223-LHW has the plate, therefore it is not a back-stab device. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...447190#overlay You have proved your point, not back-stabbed. Look how wide that thing is. I haven't seen one that wid for 50 years. You are aware that this is a 3-way switch, don't you? Which is just a SPDT switch. There's no need for it to be significantly wider than an SPST switch, even with the additional terminal (usually on the opposite side). I have 19 in this little house alone. And in addition to residences, there are billions of workplaces. You have 19 Leviton 20A 3-way switches? Shouldn't that be either 18 or 20? What's the point of using a single 3-way switch? To avoid a trip to the hardware store. |
#30
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On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 22:43:22 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote: Marilyn Manson writes: On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 5:41:34 PM UTC-4, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Jun 2021 13:03:21 -0700 (PDT), Marilyn Manson wrote: The 1223-LHW has the plate, therefore it is not a back-stab device. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...447190#overlay You have proved your point, not back-stabbed. Look how wide that thing is. I haven't seen one that wid for 50 years. You are aware that this is a 3-way switch, don't you? Which is just a SPDT switch. There's no need for it to be significantly wider than an SPST switch, even with the additional terminal (usually on the opposite side). The 20a devices are bigger than the 15s tho. |
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