On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 10:47:53 -0700, Bob F wrote:
If you set it too close to the limit the pump can provide, You will
likely end up with the failure again sooner than later. That's why I
suggest the extra turn.

Everything you say I can't ever disagree with.
Luckily it's nowhere near 52psi anymore.

It's 37 the one time I heard it go on today and then shut off 1-1/2 minutes
later. That's far enough away from 52 & yet still in the good range for me.

Your readings are always questionable with tire gauges or any other
gauge. I have several tire gauges, and they vary by several PSI when
checking the same tire.

Yeah. I know. I know. This is a brass dial gauge. I don't want to even test
it with a second gauge for the reason that then I'd always be wondering.

It would really be worth fixing the gauge on the
pump so you can glance at it once in a while as the pump turns off and
see that the shutoff PSI is not inching upwards.

Agree in concept. Fully agree in concept.

In practice the gauge has no leeway in the direction it's pointing as it has
to go in tightly enough and then not too tight - and that position is facing
the wrong way for convenience. Also it's less than a foot off the floor.

It's not easy to see under those conditions.

Plus to clean out the pump at this point probably necessitates taking the
pump apart and the damage I could cause doing that is worse than the lack of
a gauge (the pump side is built with solid steel like a Sherman tank).

At this point, thanks to following your advice, I've lowered the shutoff
point low enough to prove the switch is working (in practice) even though I
don't yet know the turnon pressure yet nor the range.

I marked the bolts (they don't turn) and twisted each nut five full turns
CCW which loosened the pressure on the springs which are pushing the
pressure plate down which the pressure from the pump tries to push up.

Assuming 2psi per turn I lowered the start point by 10 psi (big bolt) and I
lowered whatever range it had (nominally 20psi) by dropping the cutoff point
by 10 psi.

I just realized the math sort of works out.

Assume the original range was 20psi and assume it was set at 40 to 60.
By dropping the range 10psi it would be set at 30 to 50.
By dropping the cutoff point by 10 psi it would be set at 30 to 40.

My one test of 37psi fits within that estimate.
I'll need time and events to figure this out any better.
I don't run the water much except when taking a long shower.
The wife & kids use water more than I do so it depends on their activity.

Overall, thank you and the others for your helpful advice.
Just the fact it's back to automatic is a weight off my shoulders.

That gives me time to decide what I need to do and to purchase.

On 6/7/2021 12:58 PM, dan wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 10:47:53 -0700, Bob F wrote:
If you set it too close to the limit the pump can provide, You will
likely end up with the failure again sooner than later. That's why I
suggest the extra turn.

Everything you say I can't ever disagree with.
Luckily it's nowhere near 52psi anymore.

It's 37 the one time I heard it go on today and then shut off 1-1/2 minutes
later. That's far enough away from 52 & yet still in the good range for me.

Your readings are always questionable with tire gauges or any other
gauge. I have several tire gauges, and they vary by several PSI when
checking the same tire.

Yeah. I know. I know. This is a brass dial gauge. I don't want to even test
it with a second gauge for the reason that then I'd always be wondering.

It would really be worth fixing the gauge on the
pump so you can glance at it once in a while as the pump turns off and
see that the shutoff PSI is not inching upwards.

Agree in concept. Fully agree in concept.

In practice the gauge has no leeway in the direction it's pointing as it has
to go in tightly enough and then not too tight - and that position is facing
the wrong way for convenience. Also it's less than a foot off the floor.

It's not easy to see under those conditions.

Plus to clean out the pump at this point probably necessitates taking the
pump apart and the damage I could cause doing that is worse than the lack of
a gauge (the pump side is built with solid steel like a Sherman tank).

At this point, thanks to following your advice, I've lowered the shutoff
point low enough to prove the switch is working (in practice) even though I
don't yet know the turnon pressure yet nor the range.

I marked the bolts (they don't turn) and twisted each nut five full turns
CCW which loosened the pressure on the springs which are pushing the
pressure plate down which the pressure from the pump tries to push up.

Assuming 2psi per turn I lowered the start point by 10 psi (big bolt) and I
lowered whatever range it had (nominally 20psi) by dropping the cutoff point
by 10 psi.

I just realized the math sort of works out.

Assume the original range was 20psi and assume it was set at 40 to 60.
By dropping the range 10psi it would be set at 30 to 50.
By dropping the cutoff point by 10 psi it would be set at 30 to 40.

My one test of 37psi fits within that estimate.
I'll need time and events to figure this out any better.
I don't run the water much except when taking a long shower.
The wife & kids use water more than I do so it depends on their activity.

Overall, thank you and the others for your helpful advice.
Just the fact it's back to automatic is a weight off my shoulders.

That gives me time to decide what I need to do and to purchase.


I was glad to help.

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 14:30:33 -0200, dan wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 07:01:52 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The obvious first thing to do is adjust the switch to a lower pressure.
Instructions are in the switch cover usually. I believe you loosen the
nut on the bigger spring.

I agree. Completely. And therefore I will do that next!
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=400

BTW, this morning I increased the native pressure of the bladder to 28psi
(when the water level was a dribble so I assume that's as low as it gets)
as it had started at about 22 psi a couple of days ago & needed air.

After pressurizing the bladder to 28psi I let the pressure pump run to see
if it would cut off, and the pressure (at the top of the blue tank) went up
very quickly (within a minute) to 35psi and then within another minute to 50
psi but even after ten minutes of the pump running it never exceeded 52psi
(and the pump never turned off).

So that's one mystery of why the pump doesn't get higher than 52psi as
measured at the top of the blue bladder tank. The other (perhaps related?)
mystery is why the pressure at the gauge on the pump is literally zero (no
air, no water).

I removed the gauge and let the pump run and NOTHING came out. Huh?

Given the pump /can't/ get higher than 52psi, then lowering the pressure
switch shutoff may prove that everything /else/ is working (but the pump).

Therefore I agree the next thing I should try is lower the shutoff pressure.

I don't have instructions on the cover but they are here & you are right.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=65

That video says if the 20# range is set to 30:50, then loosening the big nut
on that large center bolt will _lower_ the 20# range (say to 20:40).

Each full center nut rotation is 2 to 3 psi change of the 20# range.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=85

Loosening the smaller nut lowers the high-end cutoff only (about 2psi/turn).
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=98

What's a good range and high end? I don't know.
The video says to play with the 20# range if you need to lower pressure.
It says to play with the high end cutoff only if you specifically need it.

I will probably drop it lower than I really need to just to debug.
Then bring it up later as close to the 30:50 as I can get it.

When I change the cutout pressure point I have to measure the results.
Is the pressure at the top of the blue bladder tank an accurate pressure?
There are 2 settings. A cut in pressure and a cut out pressure. The
difference is Hysteresis. Having the hysteresis too low means the
pumnp continuously cycles. Lower the cut out pressure to below 52 PSI
- lets say 30. Then set the cut in pressure to about 10 for testing
purposes. When the tank drops below 10 the pump will turn on. Whenit
reaches 30 it will shut off. Having air in the bladder maintains the
30PSI while the water volume in the tank drops. Without air pressure
the water pressure drops immediately when a tap is opened - starting
the pump.
Now - you need the gauge to read. Generally the guage is on a
"damping" orifice to keep the needle from jumping all over the place.
If you are not getting air or water to the gauge the orifice is
plugged. Findit and poke a wire through it so the water or air can get
through to the gauge - and replace the gauge.

If it starts when the pressure frops to 10 and runs untill it hits 30
- and you can see pressure on the gauge, everything is working -
adjust the cut out to the specified upper pressure and see if the
pumnp cam kick that much pressure. If it can't pump up to the required
pressure the pump is worn out and you will need to replace it.

The air pressure at the top of the bell should be equal to the tank
water pressure when the tank is full - if there is enough air in the
bell / bladder.

On 6/7/2021 1:42 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 6/7/2021 12:58 PM, dan wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 10:47:53 -0700, Bob F wrote:
If you set it too close to the limit the pump can provide, You will
likely end up with the failure again sooner than later. That's why I
suggest the extra turn.

Everything you say I can't ever disagree with.
Luckily it's nowhere near 52psi anymore.

It's 37 the one time I heard it go on today and then shut off 1-1/2
minutes
later. That's far enough away from 52 & yet still in the good range
for me.
Your readings are always questionable with tire gauges or any other
gauge. I have several tire gauges, and they vary by several PSI when
checking the same tire.

Yeah. I know. I know. This is a brass dial gauge. I don't want to even
test
it with a second gauge for the reason that then I'd always be wondering.

It would really be worth fixing the gauge on the
pump so you can glance at it once in a while as the pump turns off and
see that the shutoff PSI is not inching upwards.

Agree in concept. Fully agree in concept.

In practice the gauge has no leeway in the direction it's pointing as
it has
to go in tightly enough and then not too tight - and that position is
facing
the wrong way for convenience. Also it's less than a foot off the floor.

It's not easy to see under those conditions.

Plus to clean out the pump at this point probably necessitates taking the
pump apart and the damage I could cause doing that is worse than the
lack of
a gauge (the pump side is built with solid steel like a Sherman tank).

At this point, thanks to following your advice, I've lowered the shutoff
point low enough to prove the switch is working (in practice) even
though I
don't yet know the turnon pressure yet nor the range.

I marked the bolts (they don't turn) and twisted each nut five full turns
CCW which loosened the pressure on the springs which are pushing the
pressure plate down which the pressure from the pump tries to push up.

Assuming 2psi per turn I lowered the start point by 10 psi (big bolt)
and I
lowered whatever range it had (nominally 20psi) by dropping the cutoff
point
by 10 psi.

I just realized the math sort of works out.

Assume the original range was 20psi and assume it was set at 40 to 60.
By dropping the range 10psi it would be set at 30 to 50.
By dropping the cutoff point by 10 psi it would be set at 30 to 40.

My one test of 37psi fits within that estimate.
I'll need time and events to figure this out any better.
I don't run the water much except when taking a long shower.
The wife & kids use water more than I do so it depends on their activity.

Overall, thank you and the others for your helpful advice.
Just the fact it's back to automatic is a weight off my shoulders.

That gives me time to decide what I need to do and to purchase.


I was glad to help.


One other gauge possibility. You can add a gauge anywhere on the water
pipes that an available fitting is installed that the gauge can be
adapted to for testing purposes, or you can get gauges with female hose
fitting that you can just screw onto a hose faucet. The reading my be
low if water is being used on the same line. You could even use a
reducer fitting where the plastic plug was on the pump, although that
may have readings that bounce around a lot when the pump is running.

On 6/7/2021 2:29 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 6/7/2021 1:42 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 6/7/2021 12:58 PM, dan wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 10:47:53 -0700, Bob F wrote:
If you set it too close to the limit the pump can provide, You will
likely end up with the failure again sooner than later. That's why I
suggest the extra turn.

Everything you say I can't ever disagree with.
Luckily it's nowhere near 52psi anymore.

It's 37 the one time I heard it go on today and then shut off 1-1/2
minutes
later. That's far enough away from 52 & yet still in the good range
for me.
Your readings are always questionable with tire gauges or any other
gauge. I have several tire gauges, and they vary by several PSI when
checking the same tire.

Yeah. I know. I know. This is a brass dial gauge. I don't want to
even test
it with a second gauge for the reason that then I'd always be wondering.

It would really be worth fixing the gauge on the
pump so you can glance at it once in a while as the pump turns off and
see that the shutoff PSI is not inching upwards.

Agree in concept. Fully agree in concept.

In practice the gauge has no leeway in the direction it's pointing as
it has
to go in tightly enough and then not too tight - and that position is
facing
the wrong way for convenience. Also it's less than a foot off the floor.

It's not easy to see under those conditions.

Plus to clean out the pump at this point probably necessitates taking
the
pump apart and the damage I could cause doing that is worse than the
lack of
a gauge (the pump side is built with solid steel like a Sherman tank).

At this point, thanks to following your advice, I've lowered the shutoff
point low enough to prove the switch is working (in practice) even
though I
don't yet know the turnon pressure yet nor the range.

I marked the bolts (they don't turn) and twisted each nut five full
turns
CCW which loosened the pressure on the springs which are pushing the
pressure plate down which the pressure from the pump tries to push up.

Assuming 2psi per turn I lowered the start point by 10 psi (big bolt)
and I
lowered whatever range it had (nominally 20psi) by dropping the
cutoff point
by 10 psi.

I just realized the math sort of works out.

Assume the original range was 20psi and assume it was set at 40 to 60.
By dropping the range 10psi it would be set at 30 to 50.
By dropping the cutoff point by 10 psi it would be set at 30 to 40.

My one test of 37psi fits within that estimate.
I'll need time and events to figure this out any better.
I don't run the water much except when taking a long shower.
The wife & kids use water more than I do so it depends on their
activity.

Overall, thank you and the others for your helpful advice.
Just the fact it's back to automatic is a weight off my shoulders.

That gives me time to decide what I need to do and to purchase.


I was glad to help.


One other gauge possibility. You can add a gauge anywhere on the water
pipes that an available fitting is installed that the gauge can be
adapted to for testing purposes, or you can get gauges with female hose
fitting that you can just screw onto a hose faucet. The reading my be
low if water is being used on the same line. You could even use a
reducer fitting where the plastic plug was on the pump, although that
may have readings that bounce around a lot when the pump is running.



Second thought. The one on the top might be better.

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 14:32:24 -0700, Bob F wrote:
You could even use a
reducer fitting where the plastic plug was on the pump, although that
may have readings that bounce around a lot when the pump is running.


Second thought. The one on the top might be better.

That makes the most sense to put a reducer bushing going from the top of the
pump 1 inch taper to a 3/8" straight to fit a new gauge on top of the pump.

Another good idea from you which I appreciate as I instantly agree.

Thanks to the help here the problem has a workaround which was first
suggested by BobF I believe, which was to lower the pressure switch set
points.

With that one change, the water pressure motor & pump has been turning on
and off automatically for 24 hours now, and while the motor must be turning
on and off as water is used I haven't caught it in the act more than once.

I'll try to do things around the yard that are near that motor to try to get
a good handle on timing how often and how long it runs & let people who
helped me know the results as a courtesy to them.

Thank you - your help was instrumental in diagnosing & working around the
problem which appears to be an aging water pump that can no longer reach the
previous high pressure set point which was apparently well over 52 psi.
--
(There is also a non-related minor problem of the pressure switch pump
baffling gunked up which isn't the proximate cause of this problem.)

On 6/8/2021 7:44 AM, dan wrote:
Thanks to the help here the problem has a workaround which was first
suggested by BobF I believe, which was to lower the pressure switch set
points.

With that one change, the water pressure motor & pump has been turning on
and off automatically for 24 hours now, and while the motor must be turning
on and off as water is used I haven't caught it in the act more than once.

I'll try to do things around the yard that are near that motor to try to get
a good handle on timing how often and how long it runs & let people who
helped me know the results as a courtesy to them.

Just turn on a faucet somewhere, and it will cycle on/off as needed. You
don't have to wait for it to happen when you wander by. You could even
have a hose end near the pump and a couple 5 gallon buckets, to measure
how much water comes out of the tank after the pump stops until it
starts again. Fill a bucket, and move the hose to the other, then dump
the first while the 2nd fills. Repeat as needed and keep count. Multiply
by the bucket capacity and you know your usable tank capacity.


Thank you - your help was instrumental in diagnosing & working around the
problem which appears to be an aging water pump that can no longer reach the
previous high pressure set point which was apparently well over 52 psi.


It could be a wearing switch also. You can buy them pretty cheap online
(Not that a cheap one is best) and have it around in case the switch
does decide to fail. It is not a bad investment to be ready for what
could be a very inconvenient failure.

I did have the mechanism at the bottom of the springs on the switch on
my sprinkler system just fall apart once. I replaced it with a spare,
and spent a significant time trying to figure out how to re-assemble the
broken switch. It was quite a puzzle.

And you are indeed welcome. I am glad you got it working.

On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 10:24:23 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Just turn on a faucet somewhere, and it will cycle on/off as needed.
You don't have to wait for it to happen when you wander by. You could even
have a hose end near the pump and a couple 5 gallon buckets, to measure
how much water comes out of the tank after the pump stops until it
starts again. Fill a bucket, and move the hose to the other, then dump
the first while the 2nd fills. Repeat as needed and keep count. Multiply
by the bucket capacity and you know your usable tank capacity.

With water constantly running I determined that the turn on is 27psi.
The turn off is 37 psi in about a minute and a half (a bit less).

It takes about 15 minutes to cycle with water running.
Cycle time can be from hours to never (with no water running anyway).

BTW, your advice was logical and sound from the start in that I really
didn't need to loosen the upper level (side smaller bolt nut) because having
a 20 pound range is likely better than having a 10 pound range.

With 20 pounds there will be fewer cycles but to tell you the truth, the
wife and kids don't even notice the new situation versus the old one.

Thank you - your help was instrumental in diagnosing & working around the
problem which appears to be an aging water pump that can no longer reach the
previous high pressure set point which was apparently well over 52 psi.


It could be a wearing switch also. You can buy them pretty cheap online
(Not that a cheap one is best) and have it around in case the switch
does decide to fail. It is not a bad investment to be ready for what
could be a very inconvenient failure.

The only switch I would consider is an exact replacement so the price is not
meaningful in terms of what it is that I'm buying. They're about 25 bucks
give or take online which isn't a problem in the least.

I was going to replace the switch & gauge but the switch is more work to
replace than to just leave it there :-) so if it's working, I'm inclined to
leave it alone now (other than to increase the range back to 20 psi).

The gauge isn't working, but no gauge will given the passageways of the pump
housing must be clogged and I don't want to break things trying to fix a
gauge, so I'm inclined to leave that too. :-)

I did have the mechanism at the bottom of the springs on the switch on
my sprinkler system just fall apart once. I replaced it with a spare,
and spent a significant time trying to figure out how to re-assemble the
broken switch. It was quite a puzzle.

And you are indeed welcome. I am glad you got it working.

Thank you very much for your advice. Everything you suggested was sensible.

I don't think the switch is the problem because with the pump running
forever the pressure never increased over 52psi which doesn't really have
anything to do with the switch and I'm told by friends that these pumps can
do well over 52psi (and it must have been high at one point given the set
point prior to this problem).

Do you know what these pumps are capable of in terms of high pressure?

On 6/8/2021 4:22 PM, dan wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 10:24:23 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Just turn on a faucet somewhere, and it will cycle on/off as needed.
You don't have to wait for it to happen when you wander by. You could even
have a hose end near the pump and a couple 5 gallon buckets, to measure
how much water comes out of the tank after the pump stops until it
starts again. Fill a bucket, and move the hose to the other, then dump
the first while the 2nd fills. Repeat as needed and keep count. Multiply
by the bucket capacity and you know your usable tank capacity.

With water constantly running I determined that the turn on is 27psi.
The turn off is 37 psi in about a minute and a half (a bit less).

It takes about 15 minutes to cycle with water running.
Cycle time can be from hours to never (with no water running anyway).

BTW, your advice was logical and sound from the start in that I really
didn't need to loosen the upper level (side smaller bolt nut) because having
a 20 pound range is likely better than having a 10 pound range.

With 20 pounds there will be fewer cycles but to tell you the truth, the
wife and kids don't even notice the new situation versus the old one.

Thank you - your help was instrumental in diagnosing & working around the
problem which appears to be an aging water pump that can no longer reach the
previous high pressure set point which was apparently well over 52 psi.


It could be a wearing switch also. You can buy them pretty cheap online
(Not that a cheap one is best) and have it around in case the switch
does decide to fail. It is not a bad investment to be ready for what
could be a very inconvenient failure.

The only switch I would consider is an exact replacement so the price is not
meaningful in terms of what it is that I'm buying. They're about 25 bucks
give or take online which isn't a problem in the least.

Those switches are kind of generic. There are many manufacturers that
make the same basic switches. You may not find "exactly" what your
switch is, but that should not make a difference as long as it is
similar in size.


I was going to replace the switch & gauge but the switch is more work to
replace than to just leave it there :-) so if it's working, I'm inclined to
leave it alone now (other than to increase the range back to 20 psi).

I was suggesting the spare switch, because having it handy could really
speed up a repair if it does go out. Then again, it is an old pump, so
switch might outlast that anyway.


The gauge isn't working, but no gauge will given the passageways of the pump
housing must be clogged and I don't want to break things trying to fix a
gauge, so I'm inclined to leave that too. :-)

I did have the mechanism at the bottom of the springs on the switch on
my sprinkler system just fall apart once. I replaced it with a spare,
and spent a significant time trying to figure out how to re-assemble the
broken switch. It was quite a puzzle.

And you are indeed welcome. I am glad you got it working.

Thank you very much for your advice. Everything you suggested was sensible.

I don't think the switch is the problem because with the pump running
forever the pressure never increased over 52psi which doesn't really have
anything to do with the switch and I'm told by friends that these pumps can
do well over 52psi (and it must have been high at one point given the set
point prior to this problem).

Do you know what these pumps are capable of in terms of high pressure?


If you search using the model number, you may find the specs online, but
it is an old pump so maybe not. I think 50 or 60 is the usual shutoff
they use. You have some pressure coming in to the pump, which can be
added to what the pump can do. I suspect that your pump is showing it's
age. The impeller is probably worn and so less efficient.

Or, maybe the pressure coming into the pump has gone down. It does not
look like your pump has a jet installed, so that pump itself might have
limited pressure increase compared to the standard shallow well pump.
That might not be the case - anything could be hidden inside that case.

If I had that system, I would have gauges on both the input and output
of the pump. It would give you significant info about developing
problems because you could quickly see if things are changing.

You said earlier that you have one pump and tanks feeding this pump as a
booster. Is there another pressure tank following it? I've been assuming
there is, but may be wrong, or, I misunderstood the system ahead of it.

On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 18:38:13 -0700, Bob F wrote:
You said earlier that you have one pump and tanks feeding this pump as a
booster. Is there another pressure tank following it? I've been assuming
there is, but may be wrong, or, I misunderstood the system ahead of it.

Water comes in from the tank to the pump to the one and only blue bladder.
Then it goes to the house.

I don't know what it's called so if I call it a "pressure pump" or a
"booster pump" it means the same thing to me.

But those words may have different meaning to you.
There is only one of each item.

On 6/8/2021 8:56 PM, dan wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 18:38:13 -0700, Bob F wrote:
You said earlier that you have one pump and tanks feeding this pump as a
booster. Is there another pressure tank following it? I've been assuming
there is, but may be wrong, or, I misunderstood the system ahead of it.

Water comes in from the tank to the pump to the one and only blue bladder.
Then it goes to the house.

I don't know what it's called so if I call it a "pressure pump" or a
"booster pump" it means the same thing to me.

But those words may have different meaning to you.
There is only one of each item.


In your situation, since you have pressure coming in to the pump,
booster pump would be appropriate.

So is "the tank" a storage tank higher than your house? IIRC, you did
say it has pressure coming in from it to the pump we have been discussing.

On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 21:51:29 -0700, Bob F wrote:
In your situation, since you have pressure coming in to the pump,
booster pump would be appropriate.

So is "the tank" a storage tank higher than your house? IIRC, you did
say it has pressure coming in from it to the pump we have been discussing.

The storage tank is about fifteen feet tall and on the same concrete
platform as the pressure pump which is about fifteen feet above the house on
a hill.

That fifteen feet isn't enough to make the water run all that much inside
the house with the pump off (just a dribble).

Too bad as it would be nice to dispense altogether with the pressure pump.

On 6/5/21 9:02 AM, dan wrote:
Lately the water pressure pump keeps turning on frequently.
Like every half hour.

And it stays on for a long time.
I thought there was a leak somewhere of water.

So last night I turned off that booster pump at the circuit breaker.
I expected no water pressure in the morning.

And yet this morning there was plenty of water pressure.
What else could cause the water pump to be constantly cycling on?


If you have galvanized pipe or fittings in this system, be sure to check they haven't corroded shut.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...g eBasicHover