Does propane change with age? The web says No, but....

I have a can/bottle of propane that is at least 10 years old.

I'm using it as one of several ways to find the vacuum leak in my car.

I used it 2 years ago and got nowhere, but I'm being more diligent this
time. I have an old valve to which I've added some windshield washer
tubing, so that I can reach anywhere (although the curve that won't go
away from the tubing makes it hard to get to some places).

But I'm used to propane having a strong, distinctive, maybe pungent
smell, even just a whiff of it, and this stuff, Berzomatic brand. 14oz.
fwiw in a tubular blue can (shaped like a salami), has barely any smell.
In fact I wasn't even sure the valve was opening. Only because frost
was forming on the valve (that screws to the bottle) was I sure
something was coming out.

Also, when I didn't find a leak, I removed a small hose from the air
cleaner box and I attached the hose from the propane bottle. Barely any
change in the sound of the engine. Wouldn't have noticed it if I were
not listening for it. Should I have attached it somewhere else? Or
is propane just not a good test substance? I also have MAPP gas if
you think that would work better.

This is somewhat complicated because these Toyota engines idle at
2000rpm to start and slow to 750 after 3 or 4 minutes.

So I'm rushing to test while the engine is cold and it's all the time
lowering engine speed and changing the sound it makes anyhow.



40 years ago, I had a car that stalled if you didn't give it extra gas
until it warmed up some. AFAIK, that car was considered in need of
repair. But now it seems, with a microprocessor that can start with a
fast idle (better or faster than the fast idle cam) and lower it later,
Toyota just covers up this problem by providing 2000 rpm idling, instead
designing the engine to not have the problem. Am I too cynical? Do
other makes of cars do the same thing?

micky wrote

Does propane change with age?

Not enough to matter.

The web says No, but....

I have a can/bottle of propane that is at least 10 years old.

I'm using it as one of several ways to find the vacuum leak in my car.

I used it 2 years ago and got nowhere, but I'm being more diligent
this time. I have an old valve to which I've added some windshield
washer tubing, so that I can reach anywhere (although the curve that
won't go away from the tubing makes it hard to get to some places).

But I'm used to propane having a strong, distinctive,
maybe pungent smell, even just a whiff of it,

That's an additive that's added so you notice a gas leak.

and this stuff, Berzomatic brand. 14oz. fwiw in a tubular
blue can (shaped like a salami), has barely any smell.
In fact I wasn't even sure the valve was opening. Only
because frost was forming on the valve (that screws
to the bottle) was I sure something was coming out.

It wouldn't be surprising if some of the smell additives
do age, but that doesn't matter for your use.

Also, when I didn't find a leak, I removed a small hose from the air
cleaner box and I attached the hose from the propane bottle. Barely
any change in the sound of the engine. Wouldn't have noticed it if I
were not listening for it. Should I have attached it somewhere else?
Or is propane just not a good test substance? I also have MAPP
gas if you think that would work better.

This is somewhat complicated because these Toyota engines
idle at 2000rpm to start and slow to 750 after 3 or 4 minutes.

So I'm rushing to test while the engine is cold and it's all the time
lowering engine speed and changing the sound it makes anyhow.

40 years ago, I had a car that stalled if you didn't give it extra gas
until it warmed up some. AFAIK, that car was considered in need
of repair. But now it seems, with a microprocessor that can start
with a fast idle (better or faster than the fast idle cam) and lower
it later, Toyota just covers up this problem by providing 2000 rpm
idling, instead designing the engine to not have the problem.
Am I too cynical?

Yep.

Do other makes of cars do the same thing?

Yep, coz plenty do better with a faster idle till they warm up.

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 03:49:07 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll****

--
Richard about trolling senile Rodent:
"Rod Speed, a bare faced pig and ignorant ****."
MID:

On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 13:38:14 -0400, micky
wrote:

Does propane change with age? The web says No, but....

I have a can/bottle of propane that is at least 10 years old.

I'm using it as one of several ways to find the vacuum leak in my car.

I used it 2 years ago and got nowhere, but I'm being more diligent this
time. I have an old valve to which I've added some windshield washer
tubing, so that I can reach anywhere (although the curve that won't go
away from the tubing makes it hard to get to some places).

But I'm used to propane having a strong, distinctive, maybe pungent
smell, even just a whiff of it, and this stuff, Berzomatic brand. 14oz.
fwiw in a tubular blue can (shaped like a salami), has barely any smell.
In fact I wasn't even sure the valve was opening. Only because frost
was forming on the valve (that screws to the bottle) was I sure
something was coming out.

Also, when I didn't find a leak, I removed a small hose from the air
cleaner box and I attached the hose from the propane bottle. Barely any
change in the sound of the engine. Wouldn't have noticed it if I were
not listening for it. Should I have attached it somewhere else? Or
is propane just not a good test substance? I also have MAPP gas if
you think that would work better.

This is somewhat complicated because these Toyota engines idle at
2000rpm to start and slow to 750 after 3 or 4 minutes.

So I'm rushing to test while the engine is cold and it's all the time
lowering engine speed and changing the sound it makes anyhow.



40 years ago, I had a car that stalled if you didn't give it extra gas
until it warmed up some. AFAIK, that car was considered in need of
repair. But now it seems, with a microprocessor that can start with a
fast idle (better or faster than the fast idle cam) and lower it later,
Toyota just covers up this problem by providing 2000 rpm idling, instead
designing the engine to not have the problem. Am I too cynical? Do
other makes of cars do the same thing?

Toyota and all other manufacturers of EFI engines enrich the mixture
when cold. Even with a richer mixture the engine speed needs to be
increased on a cold engine. The IAC sensor end ECT sensor tell the
computer it is cold - with the ECT having priority. (Intake Air Temp
and Engine Coolant Temp sensors) Speed is controlled by the IAC valve
(Intake Air Control) that bypasses the throttle plate.

Inearly Bosch style injection systems they had a CSI (Cold start
injector) controlled by a thermo time switch that just shot an extra
stream of fuel into the manifold for a certain length of time
depending on engine coolant (and sometimes air) temperature.

On 04/09/2021 11:38 AM, micky wrote:
But I'm used to propane having a strong, distinctive, maybe pungent
smell, even just a whiff of it, and this stuff, Berzomatic brand. 14oz.
fwiw in a tubular blue can (shaped like a salami), has barely any smell.

Have you been tested for covid lately?

On 4/9/21 8:59 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 04/09/2021 11:38 AM, micky wrote:
But I'm used to propane having a strong, distinctive, maybe pungent
smell, even just a whiff of it, and this stuff, Berzomatic brand. 14oz.
fwiw in a tubular blue can (shaped like a salami), has barely any smell.

Have you been tested for covid lately?

BernzOmatic propane should have the same "rotten egg" smell as
residential natural gas. Both have Mercaptan added to give it the odor.

See the MSDS data sheet here
https://worthingtonindustries.com/ge...MSDS-Sheet.pdf

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 21:28:54 -0400, wrote:

On 4/9/21 8:59 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 04/09/2021 11:38 AM, micky wrote:
But I'm used to propane having a strong, distinctive, maybe pungent
smell, even just a whiff of it, and this stuff, Berzomatic brand. 14oz.
fwiw in a tubular blue can (shaped like a salami), has barely any smell.

Have you been tested for covid lately?

BernzOmatic propane should have the same "rotten egg" smell as
residential natural gas. Both have Mercaptan added to give it the odor.

See the MSDS data sheet here
https://worthingtonindustries.com/ge...MSDS-Sheet.pdf
Maybe he has Covid - first sign is loss of smell - - - -
Then againwe don't know what he's using - if he has an old torchwith
the teeny tiny orfice half plugged he may not be getting enough flow
to get much smell. - which wouid explain why he doesn't get much if
any result when he feeds the gas.

On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:38:35 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
Does propane change with age? The web says No, but....

I have a can/bottle of propane that is at least 10 years old.

I'm using it as one of several ways to find the vacuum leak in my car.

I used it 2 years ago and got nowhere, but I'm being more diligent this
time. I have an old valve to which I've added some windshield washer
tubing, so that I can reach anywhere (although the curve that won't go
away from the tubing makes it hard to get to some places).

But I'm used to propane having a strong, distinctive, maybe pungent
smell, even just a whiff of it, and this stuff, Berzomatic brand. 14oz.
fwiw in a tubular blue can (shaped like a salami), has barely any smell.
In fact I wasn't even sure the valve was opening. Only because frost
was forming on the valve (that screws to the bottle) was I sure
something was coming out.

I don't recall Bernzomatic fuel having a strong smell. I've used cylinders
that were a decade or more old and they worked for the torch.




Also, when I didn't find a leak, I removed a small hose from the air
cleaner box and I attached the hose from the propane bottle. Barely any
change in the sound of the engine. Wouldn't have noticed it if I were
not listening for it. Should I have attached it somewhere else? Or
is propane just not a good test substance? I also have MAPP gas if
you think that would work better.

This is somewhat complicated because these Toyota engines idle at
2000rpm to start and slow to 750 after 3 or 4 minutes.

So I'm rushing to test while the engine is cold and it's all the time
lowering engine speed and changing the sound it makes anyhow.


Just shows you that what sounds simple on the internet, isn't so simple.
Why not just warm it up first?






40 years ago, I had a car that stalled if you didn't give it extra gas
until it warmed up some. AFAIK, that car was considered in need of
repair. But now it seems, with a microprocessor that can start with a
fast idle (better or faster than the fast idle cam) and lower it later,
Toyota just covers up this problem by providing 2000 rpm idling, instead
designing the engine to not have the problem. Am I too cynical? Do
other makes of cars do the same thing?

IDK, but 2000 for warmed up idle doesn't sound right for any car.
Around 800 is more typical, for obvious reasons. Yours may be idling
faster because of whatever is wrong with it and the computer trying
to keep it running.

On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 11:22:21 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 21:28:54 -0400, wrote:

On 4/9/21 8:59 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 04/09/2021 11:38 AM, micky wrote:
But I'm used to propane having a strong, distinctive, maybe pungent
smell, even just a whiff of it, and this stuff, Berzomatic brand. 14oz.
fwiw in a tubular blue can (shaped like a salami), has barely any smell.

Have you been tested for covid lately?

BernzOmatic propane should have the same "rotten egg" smell as
residential natural gas. Both have Mercaptan added to give it the odor.

See the MSDS data sheet here
https://worthingtonindustries.com/ge...MSDS-Sheet.pdf
Maybe he has Covid - first sign is loss of smell - - - -
Then againwe don't know what he's using - if he has an old torchwith
the teeny tiny orfice half plugged he may not be getting enough flow
to get much smell. - which wouid explain why he doesn't get much if
any result when he feeds the gas.

I suggested he use a garden sprayer filled with gasoline and spray it everywhere,
but for some reason he hasn't done that.