Are my business assumptions correct?
 

Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being
honest?

Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the
profit they would have made on the parts?

If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked
by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be
tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip
almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the
paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

On 4/2/2021 2:25 PM, micky wrote:
Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being
honest?

Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the
profit they would have made on the parts?

If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked
by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be
tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip
almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the
paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.



Depends on the shop. Is it one you've used before and know the owner?
If so, good chance you can just tell him you wanted to put them in
yourself and could not and need his help. An honest shop will charge
you a fair rate for labor.

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

micky wrote:

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

What makes you think the oxygen sensors have anything to do with your
problem? If you're getting errors saying that sensors are out of range,
it might well be because they are accurately measuring an exhaust that
is out of range. Especially if you're seeing more than one.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

If you take O2 sensors to a shop and tell them to replace them, they will
replace them. Depending on how they are feeling that day and if they like
you, you may get a PIA charge for bringing in your own parts and being a
pain in the ass.

This means that if your problem is not bad sensors that you have just
wasted a lot of money, both in the parts you bought unnecessarily and in
the labour you paid them to do unnecessary work.

Replacing the sensors could be trivial or it could be a major pain in
the neck depending on how rusty things are and how well-kept things are.
If the last person that changed the sensors used anti-seize, it will
greatly reduce the work needed.

But before I'd go swapping parts at random, I'd make sure that I knew
what was actually wrong. A shop that is truly honest is likely to
tell you they won't do any work without spending time on a proper diagnosis
first.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

On Friday, April 2, 2021 at 1:26:04 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being
honest?

Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the
profit they would have made on the parts?

If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked
by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be
tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip
almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the
paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.

A good shop will tell you if the diagnosis is correct

Whether putting in a used part will invalidate the warranty

Whether they have used parts laying around they could put in instead
So if you brought parts in tgey woukd not be that upset so long as they can still get a fair rate for analysis and labor

Labor is charged at a flat rate prescribed by a manual
In part this protects you from having to pay mire in case they drag the time out. But also many good mechanics work piece rate and the more jobs they complete under the prescribed book rate, the better their pay and of course the more the shop makes

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

On Fri, 02 Apr 2021 14:25:42 -0400, micky
wrote:

Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being
honest?

Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the
profit they would have made on the parts?

If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked
by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be
tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip
almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the
paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.
Many shops have a "no outside parts" policy because if the parts get
damaged they are responsible and if they are no good they can't proove
they didn't damage them and can't warranty them.
Other shops will install customer supplied parts,but absolutely no
warranty.
A very few shops actually prefer you supply the parts because then
they have no responsibility and don't need to spend time chasing parts
- but if your parts are wrong or defective or you midded a required
part like a bolt or gasket you pay shop time while waiting for the
part.
WhenI was in the business my policy was officially "no outside parts"
but exceptions were made for oddball stuff.
We also charged extra on every job where we were "finishing up" a DIY
job that went bad - and it was STRAIGHT TIME. No flat rate. If you
twisted off a bolt or rounded off a nut and it took 2 hours toget it
out, you paid the full 2 hours. If my mechanic rounded it off or broke
it off due to not taking proper precautions sometimes we were able to
adjust the price. If it broke off because it was all rusted to heck
and there was NO CHANCE of getting it off without breaking, you paid
full price.

The sigh above the service desk said something like:

Regular labour: $40.00 per hour
Labour if you watch: $50.00 per hour
Labour if you broke it trying to fix it yourself: $60.00 an hour
Labour if itcomes in in a box:$100.00 an hour

And no, we really were NOT joking!!!!

In the one garage I worked at for a while we wasted more time on jobs
where the customer supplied parts - either used, discount, or
whatever, that were either no good, didn't fit properly, or the wrong
parts, than we could ever recoup on the customer charge. Just not
worth the aggravation, generally speaking.

If you have a 1949 Hispano Suiso or a 1957 studebaker or a 1967 Isetta
and you need work done and have a sourse for the parts that is a
different story completely - and you pay the labour accordingly.
(Just jiking about the Hispano - but I do stilloccaisionally work on
MG TDs and Isettas and old Fiats - and Honda Mini Trails and other
assorted offities where I'm just too happy tohave the owner supply the
parts - even if I occaisionally have to spend time helping them
determine what parts to get and where)

I've been known to trade a couple weeks of "babysitting" a classic for
a couple hours of repair work - taking the car to cruise nights and
sunday afternoon drives for most of the summer while repairing various
sundry electrical and mechanical issues.

As for the O2 sensors - make sure they are the ACTUAL problem and
don't go bitching to the mechanic after he replaces them if the engine
light still comes on - - -

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

On Fri, 02 Apr 2021 14:25:42 -0400, micky posted for all of us to digest...


Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being
honest?

Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the
profit they would have made on the parts?

If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked
by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be
tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip
almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the
paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.

Depends on the shop. They make a small profit on parts. I am just giving the
other side of the story... What happens if the parts you supply are incorrect,
broken, poor quality, out of specs, what happens then? Are you sure the sensors
are bad? Just asking. Maybe a bad cat or broken wires, misinterpretation of
data. Use OEM or OEM supplier sensors or you may have another set of problems.

They can be in REAL inaccessible places and tough to remove. It depends.

Just like a lawyer would say: It depends. ;)

--
Tekkie

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

"micky" wrote in message
...
Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

It varys with the shop.

Is there a difference if the shop's owner
has a reputation for being honest?

Not honest so much as operates that way.

Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job
and skip the profit they would have made on the parts?

Some do, some don't.

If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be
irked by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even,
I would be tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake.

If they had any sense they wouldn't because that would
stuff their reputation if it went bad because they did that.
But the worst of them don't care about stuff like that.

Or to skip almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards,
or putting the paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.

That varys even when they supply the parts.

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

micky wrote

Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes,
and I need to install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors.

Its very unlikely that more than one has failed.

I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being
honest?

Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the
profit they would have made on the parts?

If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked
by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be
tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip
almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the
paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

Rod Speed wrote:
micky wrote

Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes,
and I need to install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors.

Its very unlikely that more than one has failed.

It's very unlikely any of them have failed. I cannot even count the number
of times I have seen cars blowing black smoke out the tailpipe which have
just got new oxygen sensors because the computer was throwing a code saying
the sensor was out of range in the rich direction.

The morons don't bother to figure out why it threw the code, they just swap
out parts at random. They love swapping parts out.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Lonely Obnoxious Cantankerous Auto-contradicting Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
 

On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 08:22:11 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Is this true?

It varys with the shop.

So much wisdom again in one little senile head, eh, senile Rodent?

More senile "wisdom" from the senile Australian bull**** artist:
"Some things are much harder to do than others."
MID:

LMAO

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
his particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

On 4/2/2021 5:14 PM, Tekkie� wrote:

On Fri, 02 Apr 2021 14:25:42 -0400, micky posted for all of us to digest...


Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being
honest?

Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the
profit they would have made on the parts?

If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked
by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be
tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip
almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the
paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.

Depends on the shop. They make a small profit on parts. I am just giving the
other side of the story... What happens if the parts you supply are incorrect,
broken, poor quality, out of specs, what happens then? Are you sure the sensors
are bad? Just asking. Maybe a bad cat or broken wires, misinterpretation of
data. Use OEM or OEM supplier sensors or you may have another set of problems.

They can be in REAL inaccessible places and tough to remove. It depends.

Just like a lawyer would say: It depends. ;)


The shop I use for stuff I don't do myself doesn't care. But then I buy
my tires and have other work done there.

--
ÄLSKAR - Fänga Dagen

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

micky wrote:
Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being
honest?

Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the
profit they would have made on the parts?

If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked
by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be
tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip
almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the
paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.


Well you can **** money away by changing the sensors but it's not going
to clear those codes. You have a different problem.

As to what the shop does, it depends on the shop. In mine if a customer
brings their own parts, they are installed with no testing or warranty
given because those are the parts YOU want installed. It is also noted
on the paperwork that "Customer supplied parts installed per their
direction" That way if the parts are wrong or don't fix the issue it's
not my problem.
No difference in the labor rate.

Now a good shop would bring in the car, do an actual diagnostic on it,
then repair the real issue, which in this case could be nothing more
than a broken vacuum fitting or bad intake boot that is letting excess
air in past the MAF. Or a skewed MAF that is reading a low GPS number
and the PCM thinks it's getting less air than it really is. Fuel trims
and O2 live data would show that and changing the sensors will do nothing.
Also you may wish to know that the only sensors involved with those
codes are the two upstream sensors, the downstream units are for testing
the cat efficiency and as back-ups to the upstreams if they fail.

--
Steve W.

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:
micky wrote

Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes,
and I need to install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors.
Its very unlikely that more than one has failed.

It's very unlikely any of them have failed. I cannot even count the number
of times I have seen cars blowing black smoke out the tailpipe which have
just got new oxygen sensors because the computer was throwing a code saying
the sensor was out of range in the rich direction.

The morons don't bother to figure out why it threw the code, they just swap
out parts at random. They love swapping parts out.
--scott


Yep, I love the ones who bring in a vehicle and say "Here I want XX
changed, I know they are the problem" Instead of actually doing a diag
and finding the real issue.
They always seem to complain though when it doesn't repair the problem...

--
Steve W.

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

On 3/4/21 5:19 pm, Steve W. wrote:
micky wrote:
Are my business assumptions correct?
I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors.Â*Â* I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.
For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.
Is this true?
Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being
honest?
Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the
profit they would have made on the parts?
If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked
by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be
tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake.Â* Or to skip
almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the
paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.


Well you can **** money away by changing the sensors but it's not going
to clear those codes. You have a different problem.

As to what the shop does, it depends on the shop. In mine if a customer
brings their own parts, they are installed with no testing or warranty
given because those are the parts YOU want installed. It is also noted
on the paperwork that "Customer supplied parts installed per their
direction" That way if the parts are wrong or don't fix the issue it's
not my problem.
No difference in the labor rate.

Now a good shop would bring in the car, do an actual diagnostic on it,
then repair the real issue, which in this case could be nothing more
than a broken vacuum fitting or bad intake boot that is letting excess
air in past the MAF. Or a skewed MAF that is reading a low GPS number
and the PCM thinks it's getting less air than it really is. Fuel trims
and O2 live data would show that and changing the sensors will do nothing.
Also you may wish to know that the only sensors involved with those
codes are the two upstream sensors, the downstream units are for testing
the cat efficiency and as back-ups to the upstreams if they fail.

It always amazes me how people think that a *code reader* is the be all
and end all of engine diagnostics. They seem to think an understanding
of what's going on under the hood is no longer necessary. Unfortunately
the diagnostician needs a very good understanding of system operation
else they will be continually replacing bits which are showing
*symptoms* of the real fault. This current case is the perfect example
of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

In article , Steve W. wrote:
Yep, I love the ones who bring in a vehicle and say "Here I want XX
changed, I know they are the problem" Instead of actually doing a diag
and finding the real issue.
They always seem to complain though when it doesn't repair the problem...

"But I saw on the Internet that replacing the front bumper will fix the
rough idle problem!"
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 19:02:02 +1100, Xeno posted for all of us to digest...


On 3/4/21 5:19 pm, Steve W. wrote:
micky wrote:
Are my business assumptions correct?
I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors.** I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.
For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.
Is this true?
Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being
honest?
Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the
profit they would have made on the parts?
If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked
by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be
tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake.* Or to skip
almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the
paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.


Well you can **** money away by changing the sensors but it's not going
to clear those codes. You have a different problem.

As to what the shop does, it depends on the shop. In mine if a customer
brings their own parts, they are installed with no testing or warranty
given because those are the parts YOU want installed. It is also noted
on the paperwork that "Customer supplied parts installed per their
direction" That way if the parts are wrong or don't fix the issue it's
not my problem.
No difference in the labor rate.

Now a good shop would bring in the car, do an actual diagnostic on it,
then repair the real issue, which in this case could be nothing more
than a broken vacuum fitting or bad intake boot that is letting excess
air in past the MAF. Or a skewed MAF that is reading a low GPS number
and the PCM thinks it's getting less air than it really is. Fuel trims
and O2 live data would show that and changing the sensors will do nothing.
Also you may wish to know that the only sensors involved with those
codes are the two upstream sensors, the downstream units are for testing
the cat efficiency and as back-ups to the upstreams if they fail.

It always amazes me how people think that a *code reader* is the be all
and end all of engine diagnostics. They seem to think an understanding
of what's going on under the hood is no longer necessary. Unfortunately
the diagnostician needs a very good understanding of system operation
else they will be continually replacing bits which are showing
*symptoms* of the real fault. This current case is the perfect example
of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

Parts cannon $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

--
Tekkie

Are my business assumptions correct?
 

On 3 Apr 2021 14:49:40 -0000, Scott Dorsey posted for all of us to digest...


In article , Steve W. wrote:
Yep, I love the ones who bring in a vehicle and say "Here I want XX
changed, I know they are the problem" Instead of actually doing a diag
and finding the real issue.
They always seem to complain though when it doesn't repair the problem...

"But I saw on the Internet that replacing the front bumper will fix the
rough idle problem!"
--scott

Really? I thought it was the rear bumper because that's where the exhaust comes
out...

--
Tekkie