On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 12:26:39 AM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 20:59:13 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 2/26/2021 8:28 PM, Fred wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/26/2021 4:42 PM, Fred wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/26/2021 1:12 PM, Fred wrote:


Yes, I know many states do not regulate automotive technicians
with a mandatory licensing system - but they SHOULD.

That's completely mad. Anyone with real mechanical skills doesn't
need 4 years of study to do a decent job on modern cars.

And I know quite a few "mechanics" with university degrees
who went "back to school" to get a trade after their university
degrees didn't get them a "job"

And I know quite a few mechanics that never need to go back to
school to turn a pile of rusting metal into a fully restored
vintage car.

I know people like that too. Some could not change the radio on a
new car though, an a lot of the other electronics.

That stuff is normally left to car radio specialists.

Some won't touch them.

The specialists do.


Oh, as in someone with training? You made my point. You no longer go
to Smokey's CB shop up the road.


Evidently you have not seen the complexity of these units and
everything they control.

Yes I have, and got an unlock code for one in one of the
used Mercs that a mate of mine buys off ebay, fixes and
sells for twice what he paid for them, by fixing their fault.

It isn't just a radio any more. Navigation, cameras, sat reception,
connected services, modems, and more.

Yep, and thats part of the reason its specialists that do most of the
work.

Exactly, people with some training.




Where would you start looking for an error on the Automatic emergency
braking system?

Use youtube etc.

You still need some familiarity with electronics and how to find and fix
the problems. Few people will just look at a youtube video and figure
it out.

ANd there is so much total bull**** on YouTube too. ANybody can be an
"expert" There is a saying that sorting the goof information on the
internet from the bad is like sorting fly**** from pepper.


or the Lane Keep assist. How about lining up the cameras after a
windshield change?

You dont need 4 years of back to school for that
that wouldnt have taught you that anyway,

I didn't say 4 years, but some training is needed.



Some of the windshield companies will send you to the dealer for
calibration after they change the glass. Do you know how to do it?

Dont need to, get the dealer to do it.

If the glass company does not have the instruments you do. Some now
have them, not all do. As the systems become more commonplace they are
investing in the equipment. Genesis dealers get about $125 for it.

And it still makes no sense for the state to require 4 years
of formal training before you can work as a mechanic.


I never said 4 years. But a competent shop today has assorted training
for their certified mechanics.

I guess you don't mind these guys working on your car.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...tories..50030/

https://www.svtperformance.com/threa...tories.884065/

https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f7/j...tories-209317/
I could add quite a few more from experience - having been a licensed
automotive mechanic for almost 50 years. (just let my license lapse at
age 66)

Overall youtube videos are an excellent source of repair information in my
experience. They have saved me countless hours. Need to replace a window
regulator, for example? You can find videos showing where all the door fasteners
are and how it comes apart. Those are way better than even a Bentley manual
or the dealer service manual for something like that. I've seen videos where
you can change CV boots with half the work that you would have if you followed
the manual method.

But there are some examples of misinformation. I was looking at how to replace
the non-replaceable battery in a BMW key fob for example. There were very good
videos that were very helpful, I got it done. But I came across one video where
the guy said that they don't use rechargeable batteries, you can just replace it
with a non-rechargeable 3V coin cell battery. To prove it, he showed the ignition
switch area with the cover removed. He showed that there was coil of wire there
and he claimed that it was impossible that could charge the key fob battery,
that it was the antenna for the receiver. Wrong. That wire coil generates a
varying magnetic field that is coupled to a corresponding small wire coil in
the key fob and that's how they charge the key. A good example where some
science education, some basic knowledge is needed. Besides that it should
be obvious that it would be really bad to put a non-replaceable, non-rechargeable
battery in a key fob.

On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 3:45:03 AM UTC-5, Fred wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:17:00 +1100, "Fred" wrote:



"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/26/2021 9:20 PM, Fred wrote:



Oh, as in someone with training?

Nope, those who choose to specialise in that area.

How did they learn?

By doing it, just like any decent mechanic does.

Came to them in a dream?

Nope.

You made my point. You no longer go to Smokey's CB shop up the road.

Wrong, that is precisely who do specialise in that stuff.

Yep, they learned in a dream on night.

Nope, by doing it.

Yes I have, and got an unlock code for one in one of the
used Mercs that a mate of mine buys off ebay, fixes and
sells for twice what he paid for them, by fixing their fault.


Yes, one person.

Plenty more than one person that even I know.

It isn't just a radio any more. Navigation, cameras, sat reception,
connected services, modems, and more.

Yep, and that's part of the reason its specialists that do most of
the
work.

Exactly, people with some training.

Still wrong, they don't have formal training. they just specialise in
it.

Where did they learn it?

By doing it.

Bull****. My mechanic mate hasn't had any.

OK, a sample of 1 Very scientific.

None of the others I know have either.

If the glass company does not have the instruments you do. Some now
have them, not all do. As the systems become more commonplace they
are
investing in the equipment. Genesis dealers get about $125 for it.

But those operations don't go back to school to learn how to do it.

They use the documentation that comes with it.

WTF do you think that is? A form of training.

Bull**** it is, just like it isnt with any appliance
or the car you buy.

And it still makes no sense for the state to require 4 years
of formal training before you can work as a mechanic.

I never said 4 years. But a competent shop today has assorted
training
for their certified mechanics.

And the best mechanics don't need that.

Try running a dealership without it

I know one that has done just that.

I guess you don't mind these guys working on your car.

In fact I do all the work on my car myself.

Another sample of 1

Plenty of others do that too.

And we wonder why "STEALERSHIPS" have such a bad reputation -
particularly in the unregulated redneck states and why everyone
in the USA seams to be continually bitching about "mechanics" -
because they very seldom actually are dealing with a properly
trained, educated, cerified and regulated "professional" mechanic.
Its no news that plenty of mechanics don't have
a ****ing clue with more difficult faults, even the
ones with 4 years of professional education.

Even you must have noticed in your time in Africa that
there are plenty of very decent mechanics that do fine
without any formal education in mechanics at all.

But our vehicles aren't your 1965 pickup that you use to feed the kangaroos, stupid.

On 2/27/2021 10:54 AM, wrote:

I know people like that too.Â* Some could not change the radio on a
new car though, an a lot of the other electronics.

That stuff is normally left to car radio specialists.

Some won't touch them.

The specialists do.


Oh, as in someone with training? You made my point. You no longer go
to Smokey's CB shop up the road.

I am not sure what trick is necessary to install a car entertainment
system. Virtually any car made in this century is pre wired for it and
DIN mount systems just snap in. You will need the right adapter
harness to connect a 3d party system to the OEM harness but this
pretty easy stuff.
The "radio" (nav, mp3 player, cd/dvd or whatever) is a FRU. (Field
Replaceable Unit)
I doubt anyone actually fixes them these days, at least not as a
business. You don't see a TV repair shop in every strip mall these
days either.


So you'd not look at some of the new car systems have you.

You'd be right if I was still driving my '83 Old Cutlass.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

Makes no sense to require formal qualifications.

I'lL call you on your BS
The OBDII tells you what reading is out of spec. That is ALL it tells
you. It takes an educated professional to know what can cause that
reading to be wrong and how to test and PROVE what the problem is
instead of throwing half a dozeh expensive components at the car, then
cross their fingers and hope they didn't STILL miss the real problem.
That's why the "pinpoint tests" in the factory manual for a given
error code can cover 7 pages in the factory manual - and why the print
version of a typical factory manual con be over 6 inches thick. (and
cost several hundred dollars - and why they are virtually all now in
electronic format indexed 7 ways to sunday) Many won't fit on a CD any
more - and some require double layer DVDs.
Servicing variable valve timing and gasoline direct injection, not to
mention computer controlled transmissions and turbocharged engines and
anti-lock brakes, and active colission avoidance, and traction control
- and canbus controlled door locking systems - and even tail-lights
with computers in them -
Good luck sucker of you don't have a well trained mechanic working on
it. Just the electrical wiring will blow the mind of most "mr fixits"
- whenthe doors lockand unlock by themselves driving down the road -
or the alarm goes off in the middle of the night - or the windows go
up or down by themselves (or don't when you want them to) or the car
won't start or the doors won't unlock (or lock) from the FOB - or the
airbag light comes on - and particularly when the problems are
intermittent - - -. There are no "adjustments" any more - sure. They
require less scheduled maintenance - for sure - but those are the
SIMPLE jobs that the uneducated guy with grease under his fingers and
a $50 tool kit could do.




Engines are getting more complicated all the time. I just bought a John
Deere x590 lawn tractor. The engine on it is fuel injected. All kinds
of electrical wiring to make it work. That is just for about a 25 hp 2
cylinder engine. While it would not take a 2 or 4 year college type
course on that, I would think that some few days of training from the
factory would be needed to work on it.

You'd be wrong. Plenty of decent mechanics do what is necessary
with fuel injected cars now without any training at all.

Yes, plenty like you do the shotgun approach when say
the engine is running rough, changing everything that is
easy to change to see if that fixes it, first the plugs, then the
leads etc but that's not how the best mechanics do things.

Anyone with any real diagnostic skills considers what
can produce the symptoms seen and sees if the OBD2
has anything to say about what has failed. You don't
need training for that, just be a competent diagnostician.

As to cars I am sure most anyone could do the simple
jobs like brakes and plug and light bulb changes,

And that's all that needs fixing with most modern
cars before you replace it for other reasons.

but once anything gets into the electrical system it will
take a lot of training and skill to solve the problem.

That's bull**** on the training. It isnt hard to check the plugs
to see if one of them looks bad and to try moving them around
if they look fine. And to try new plugs, that doesn't cost much.

Same if one of the electric windows stops working or the battery
goes flat much more quickly than it had done when it was new.

I bought a 1972 Dodge Demon. It had some kind of electrical
system for the engine that was relative new. That car about once
every week would not start. The engine would turn over, but
would not fire off at all. Could do it to the battery would almost
run down and finally it would start except about once a month
it had to be towed in as it would not start. As it was a manual
transmisssion funny thing was that after the battery would almost
run down, it could be started by puahing it off very easy.

Sure there will always be some curly faults, but a decent mechanic
doesn't need training to fix them, just decent diagnostic skills.

I had it back a number of times and finally at about 18,000 miles traded
it in for another car. I had made a mistake of paying cash for that car.
Had I not , I would have let it go back after the 2 nd month I had it.

Yes, you are one of those that need training. Decent mechanics don't.

In article ,
says...
hat is a big part of the problem. Bumping up the minimum wage does
not lift all boats. It just compresses the wage scale. If the raise
from being a starting fryer cleaner, floor mopper to shift manager is
only 73 cents it makes it hard to motivate your employees to get
better and your turnover rate is horrendous. That "$32,000 a year
manager" is probably exempt and works way more than 40 hours a week
for a straight salary, not hourly, making his "$16 an hour" actually
less than the floor mopper makes.



Lots of times the managers will actually be making less per hour than
some of the workers as they have to fill in when someone is out.
Reminds me of my dad. He worked for a mobile home builder. He was one
of the first few hired. After about 2 years they wanted to make him a
forman at a salary but he did not really want that job as it was a
working forman type of job. He did take it and for the first 3 months
it was fine. Then the company started working over time After about 3
months of that he looked at his pay and hours and was making a lot less
than the ones under him. Told the company to let him go back to his old
job or he was leaving. So they let him go back to his old job.

In article ,
says...

I had it back a number of times and finally at about 18,000 miles traded
it in for another car. I had made a mistake of paying cash for that car.
Had I not , I would have let it go back after the 2 nd month I had it.

Yes, you are one of those that need training. Decent mechanics don't.




I had that car looked at by the Dodge dealer mechanics in two different
towns. So that must mean neither dealer had a decent mecchanic.

On 2/27/2021 11:15 AM, Fred wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message


but once anything gets into the electrical system it will
take a lot of training and skill to solve the problem.

That's bull**** on the training. It isnt hard to check the plugs
to see if one of them looks bad and to try moving them around
if they look fine. And to try new plugs, that doesn't cost much.

Same if one of the electric windows stops working or the battery
goes flat much more quickly than it had done when it was new.

What about the ECM? Does you guy have what is needed to check it out
and change parameters? What about the many microprocessors? How do you
track them down?

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

I had it back a number of times and finally at about 18,000 miles
traded
it in for another car. I had made a mistake of paying cash for that
car.
Had I not , I would have let it go back after the 2 nd month I had it.

Yes, you are one of those that need training. Decent mechanics don't.

I had that car looked at by the Dodge dealer mechanics in two different
towns. So that must mean neither dealer had a decent mecchanic.

Yes it does. And clearly the training they had didn't help them with that
curly fault.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/27/2021 11:15 AM, Fred wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message


but once anything gets into the electrical system it will
take a lot of training and skill to solve the problem.

That's bull**** on the training. It isnt hard to check the plugs
to see if one of them looks bad and to try moving them around
if they look fine. And to try new plugs, that doesn't cost much.

Same if one of the electric windows stops working or the battery
goes flat much more quickly than it had done when it was new.

What about the ECM? Does you guy have what is needed to check it out and
change parameters?

Not only that, to reprogram it for better performance too.
Trivially buyable on the net.

What about the many microprocessors? How do you track them down?

You dont normally need to, they dont usually
fail and if say you diagnose that whats in the
'radio' or the screen has failed, you just replace it.

On 2/27/2021 11:24 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...
hat is a big part of the problem. Bumping up the minimum wage does
not lift all boats. It just compresses the wage scale. If the raise
from being a starting fryer cleaner, floor mopper to shift manager is
only 73 cents it makes it hard to motivate your employees to get
better and your turnover rate is horrendous. That "$32,000 a year
manager" is probably exempt and works way more than 40 hours a week
for a straight salary, not hourly, making his "$16 an hour" actually
less than the floor mopper makes.



Lots of times the managers will actually be making less per hour than
some of the workers as they have to fill in when someone is out.
Reminds me of my dad. He worked for a mobile home builder. He was one
of the first few hired. After about 2 years they wanted to make him a
forman at a salary but he did not really want that job as it was a
working forman type of job. He did take it and for the first 3 months
it was fine. Then the company started working over time After about 3
months of that he looked at his pay and hours and was making a lot less
than the ones under him. Told the company to let him go back to his old
job or he was leaving. So they let him go back to his old job.


One of our sons wanted to work in restaurant management and went into a
training program and that is what he discovered and went into another
field. Working as a database manager a couple of years ago he quit his
job for the same job at lower pay where in reality he made more per hour
as it was only a 40 hour week.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 04:02:23 +1100, Fred, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

04:02??? LOL So you've been up and trolling since 01:48 (in the other
group), i.e. for OVER TWO HOURS already, you disgusting senile sociopathic
swine! IOW, will be another LONG LONG NIGHT of your idiotic trolling for
you, yet again!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:51:59 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 9:45:06 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:51 AM, wrote:
On Friday, February 26, 2021 at 9:43:15 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:27 AM, wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:01 AM, micky wrote:
OT Why $7.50 is enough

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1807595.html


"Republican Senator John Thune has rejected an effort from congressional
Democrats to raise the federal minimum wage from $7.25 an hour to $15,
pointing to his $6 or less hourly wages that he earned working at a
restaurant as a €œkid€�."


Thune graduated from Jones County High School in Murdo, South Dakota in
1979, when a $6 hourly wage €“ adjusted to modern inflation rates €“ would
amount to roughly $23 in 2021 dollars.

But he thinks, or he wants you to think, that if he got by on $6 or
less, people 41 years later should get by on 7.50.

If you don't want minimum wage, don't have minimum skills.

Are you aware that there are people who, no matter how hard they try,
will never have more than minimum skills? The retarded bagger at the
grocery store, for example.

Next you'll be bitching that those minimal-skills people are getting
food stamps because they can't afford to live on minimum wage.

Try not to trip as you step across their dead bodies in the streets.

Cindy Hamilton

Here's the thing Cindy: Every barrel has a top, a middle and a bottom.

I know that.

My guess is your rose-colored glasses prevent you from seeing that
bottom and accepting that every barrel has one.

Nope, I can accept that. But I'd rather see the bottom of the barrel
paid enough for their labor to live on, rather than sucking at the
public teat. Apparently you like to see your tax dollars pay for
Welfare.

Cindy Hamilton

As Clare pointed out, a high minimum wage just makes a shorter barrel.
The top wage will be slow to move as the bottom wage starts catching
up to it. Unless the market can tolerate higher prices the total cost
of labor has to be pretty static. If prices rise, it eats into that
gain you got from the wage hike.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:35:41 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

As to cars I am sure most anyone could do the simple jobs like brakes
and plug and light bulb changes, but once anything gets into the
electrical system it will take a lot of training and skill to solve the
problem. I bought a 1972 Dodge Demon. It had some kind of electrical
system for the engine that was relative new. That car about once every
week would not start. The engine would turn over, but would not fire
off at all. Could do it to the battery would almost run down and
finally it would start except about once a month it had to be towed in
as it would not start. As it was a manual transmisssion funny thing was
that after the battery would almost run down, it could be started by
puahing it off very easy.
I had it back a number of times and finally at about 18,000 miles traded
it in for another car. I had made a mistake of paying cash for that
car. Had I not , I would have let it go back after the 2 nd month I had
it.

What does let it go back mean? I have an idea, but it can't be right.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 07:49:51 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

I remember taking a Pontiac that had an AC problem to a place that
specializes in auto AC. They had the car for two days, told me they figured
out it was a bad switch in the panel. When I drove away, the AC worked,
but the check engine light was on. I didn't know what to do, figured they
probably caused it, but would deny it, etc. I already had the service manual
for the car, so I decided to check it out myself. Back then you could short
two pins on the diagnostic connector and it would flash a code sequence on
the instrument panel. The code indicated a problem with the coolant temp
sensor. Seems unrelated, right? So I trace it down, there is no ground coming
from the main engine computer to the sensor. That was very bad news.
But fortunately the module was easy to open up, which I did. Didn't take long
to fine a blown out circuit trace on the PC board. I bridged it with some solder,
put it back together, problem solved.

So, how did this happen? Obviously some incompetent hack trying to diagnose
the AC was jumpering 12V here and there and blew it out. I was very fortunate
to be able to diagnose and fix it. Imagine if I took it back, was the typical customer.
You think they were going to admit what they did and pay for a $700 computer?
The dope that did it may not even realize he did it, but you'd think he must have
seen some spark when he tried to connect this to that.

Many years ago I bought a used Toyota that was almost $5000 less expensive
than all of the similar vehicles in the area at the time. I didn't realize
until later that the automatic climate control didn't work. Everything
worked manually, but the auto part just blew full cold. The Toyota dealer
said it was a bad computer and would cost $3800 plus labor. Googling, I
found someone with the same problem and the responder asked what the
diagnostic code said. Hmm, a diagnostic code? Checking the factory service
manual, I saw that holding 3 buttons on the nav unit while turning on the
ignition would initiate a self-test. My codes were 11 and 21, with 11 being
'no daylight detected from the daylight sensor", which was normal because
it was dark, and 21, which said "no response detected from the cabin air
temp sensor", with a picture showing where that sensor is and how to remove
and replace it. Reaching up under the dash, it was immediately obvious that
the sensor was unplugged. I plugged it in, which cleared code 21, and it
worked for the next 15 years when I finally sold it.

Sometimes you get lucky, like I did, but I agree with y'all who are saying
that proper training is necessary these days. Without training, it's easy
to get into a mode where various parts get replaced, hoping each time that
the issue will be resolved.

In article ,
lid says...
I had it back a number of times and finally at about 18,000 miles traded
it in for another car. I had made a mistake of paying cash for that
car. Had I not , I would have let it go back after the 2 nd month I had
it.

What does let it go back mean? I have an idea, but it can't be right.




To me it means drive it to the dealer , remove my license tag and tell
them to take that piece of junk and do with it what they want, I will
not be comming back after it. That is if I had financed it on time from
them and had not made much of a down payment.

On 2/27/2021 12:02 PM, Fred wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/27/2021 11:15 AM, Fred wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message


but once anything gets into the electrical system it will
take a lot of training and skill to solve the problem.

That's bull**** on the training. It isnt hard to check the plugs
to see if one of them looks bad and to try moving them around
if they look fine. And to try new plugs, that doesn't cost much.

Same if one of the electric windows stops working or the battery
goes flat much more quickly than it had done when it was new.

What about the ECM?Â* Does you guy have what is needed to check it out
and change parameters?

Not only that, to reprogram it for better performance too.
Trivially buyable on the net.

What about the many microprocessors?Â* How do you track them down?

You dont normally need to, they dont usually
fail and if say you diagnose that whats in the
'radio' or the screen has failed, you just replace it.

ECM problems are not "fixed" with a tune chip. Fact is, microprocessors
do fail. Just replace the radio? A head unit for my car lists at $3000.
The more you go on how simple it is the more you show how little you
know of new cars.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:14:35 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 2/27/2021 10:54 AM, wrote:

I know people like that too.Â* Some could not change the radio on a
new car though, an a lot of the other electronics.

That stuff is normally left to car radio specialists.

Some won't touch them.

The specialists do.


Oh, as in someone with training? You made my point. You no longer go
to Smokey's CB shop up the road.

I am not sure what trick is necessary to install a car entertainment
system. Virtually any car made in this century is pre wired for it and
DIN mount systems just snap in. You will need the right adapter
harness to connect a 3d party system to the OEM harness but this
pretty easy stuff.
The "radio" (nav, mp3 player, cd/dvd or whatever) is a FRU. (Field
Replaceable Unit)
I doubt anyone actually fixes them these days, at least not as a
business. You don't see a TV repair shop in every strip mall these
days either.


So you'd not look at some of the new car systems have you.

You'd be right if I was still driving my '83 Old Cutlass.

Maybe computers don't scare me but I think new cars are a lot easier
to work on than my 69 Corvette.
They throw a code that gets you in the ball park, at least what the
computer saw that was wrong. Then that MAP Clare was talking about
will let you isolate farther. They typically only require modest
skills with VOM. You can usually find that page or two from the shop
manual on the net or someone will upload it. (I buy the books for my
cars and outboards)
Sure you can fall out of the MAP but that is not as often as you would
think. At that point you are probably not any worse off than the guy
at the Stealer anyway. You are looking for broken wires, bad
connections or something interfering with that sensor's reading.

I really haven't had any problem navigating codes on my cars but I
have much more experience with new outboards. They have the same basic
hardware, OBDII interface and maintenance philosophy.

Of course a brake job is still a brake job and not that much different
than my old Woodstock era Corvette.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:24:41 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
hat is a big part of the problem. Bumping up the minimum wage does
not lift all boats. It just compresses the wage scale. If the raise
from being a starting fryer cleaner, floor mopper to shift manager is
only 73 cents it makes it hard to motivate your employees to get
better and your turnover rate is horrendous. That "$32,000 a year
manager" is probably exempt and works way more than 40 hours a week
for a straight salary, not hourly, making his "$16 an hour" actually
less than the floor mopper makes.



Lots of times the managers will actually be making less per hour than
some of the workers as they have to fill in when someone is out.
Reminds me of my dad. He worked for a mobile home builder. He was one
of the first few hired. After about 2 years they wanted to make him a
forman at a salary but he did not really want that job as it was a
working forman type of job. He did take it and for the first 3 months
it was fine. Then the company started working over time After about 3
months of that he looked at his pay and hours and was making a lot less
than the ones under him. Told the company to let him go back to his old
job or he was leaving. So they let him go back to his old job.

Lots of hardware guys at IBM made more than their boss if they worked
a lot of overtime. That is the nature of the beast. At my wife's club
the head server was offered a management position many times. She
always declined. She was willing to do the managing but she wouldn't
take the pay cut to go exempt. I was in a similar position in my job.
I had the management responsibility in Ft Myers but not the title. It
was a good thing. The manager got laid off long before I left.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:42:07 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 2/27/2021 11:15 AM, Fred wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message


but once anything gets into the electrical system it will
take a lot of training and skill to solve the problem.

That's bull**** on the training. It isnt hard to check the plugs
to see if one of them looks bad and to try moving them around
if they look fine. And to try new plugs, that doesn't cost much.

Same if one of the electric windows stops working or the battery
goes flat much more quickly than it had done when it was new.

What about the ECM? Does you guy have what is needed to check it out
and change parameters? What about the many microprocessors? How do you
track them down?


The ECM should flag errors on any attached microprocessors and they
are pretty good at finding bugs in themselves. It is usually the
bottom call in the MAP. The reality is they don't fail often enough to
be a huge concern and when they do it is going to be a dead soldier,
an input line receivers that failed or have a bad output driver. A
meter or maybe a scope should show you that. Most shops don't use
scopes, not that kind anyway.
People, particularly shade tree mechanics and old timers just have
brain freeze when they think about computers.
The ECM makes it easier, not harder.
The states trust them enough to have abandoned tail pipe inspections,
trusting the ECM will tell them if a car is not running right and
polluting. That usually also results in performance issues.
I wouldn't open the hood for an engine problem that isn't leaking
something until I scanned for codes. Same with my outboards.

On 2/27/2021 12:54 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:51:59 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 9:45:06 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:51 AM, wrote:
On Friday, February 26, 2021 at 9:43:15 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:27 AM, wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:01 AM, micky wrote:
OT Why $7.50 is enough

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1807595.html


"Republican Senator John Thune has rejected an effort from congressional
Democrats to raise the federal minimum wage from $7.25 an hour to $15,
pointing to his $6 or less hourly wages that he earned working at a
restaurant as a €œkid€�."


Thune graduated from Jones County High School in Murdo, South Dakota in
1979, when a $6 hourly wage €“ adjusted to modern inflation rates €“ would
amount to roughly $23 in 2021 dollars.

But he thinks, or he wants you to think, that if he got by on $6 or
less, people 41 years later should get by on 7.50.

If you don't want minimum wage, don't have minimum skills.

Are you aware that there are people who, no matter how hard they try,
will never have more than minimum skills? The retarded bagger at the
grocery store, for example.

Next you'll be bitching that those minimal-skills people are getting
food stamps because they can't afford to live on minimum wage.

Try not to trip as you step across their dead bodies in the streets.

Cindy Hamilton

Here's the thing Cindy: Every barrel has a top, a middle and a bottom.

I know that.

My guess is your rose-colored glasses prevent you from seeing that
bottom and accepting that every barrel has one.

Nope, I can accept that. But I'd rather see the bottom of the barrel
paid enough for their labor to live on, rather than sucking at the
public teat. Apparently you like to see your tax dollars pay for
Welfare.

Cindy Hamilton

As Clare pointed out, a high minimum wage just makes a shorter barrel.
The top wage will be slow to move as the bottom wage starts catching
up to it. Unless the market can tolerate higher prices the total cost
of labor has to be pretty static. If prices rise, it eats into that
gain you got from the wage hike.


But you have to maintain some balance. If you look at CEO wage gains
they are far ahead of any other segment in the workplace. Sure, they
deserve a good wage but should the underlings have to rely on government
subsidies to feed themselves?

I don't think the law should put a maximum wage, but it is like ethics
is gone in some places when top end is getting 7 figures and bottom end
is getting Federal minimum.

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:51:59 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 9:45:06 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:51 AM, wrote:
On Friday, February 26, 2021 at 9:43:15 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:27 AM, wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:01 AM, micky wrote:
OT Why $7.50 is enough

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1807595.html


"Republican Senator John Thune has rejected an effort from
congressional
Democrats to raise the federal minimum wage from $7.25 an hour to
$15,
pointing to his $6 or less hourly wages that he earned working at a
restaurant as a €œkid€�."


Thune graduated from Jones County High School in Murdo, South
Dakota in
1979, when a $6 hourly wage €“ adjusted to modern inflation rates €“
would
amount to roughly $23 in 2021 dollars.

But he thinks, or he wants you to think, that if he got by on $6 or
less, people 41 years later should get by on 7.50.

If you don't want minimum wage, don't have minimum skills.

Are you aware that there are people who, no matter how hard they try,
will never have more than minimum skills? The retarded bagger at the
grocery store, for example.

Next you'll be bitching that those minimal-skills people are getting
food stamps because they can't afford to live on minimum wage.

Try not to trip as you step across their dead bodies in the streets.

Cindy Hamilton

Here's the thing Cindy: Every barrel has a top, a middle and a bottom.

I know that.

My guess is your rose-colored glasses prevent you from seeing that
bottom and accepting that every barrel has one.

Nope, I can accept that. But I'd rather see the bottom of the barrel
paid enough for their labor to live on, rather than sucking at the
public teat. Apparently you like to see your tax dollars pay for
Welfare.

As Clare pointed out, a high minimum wage just makes a shorter barrel.

Yes.

The top wage will be slow to move as the
bottom wage starts catching up to it.

Yes.

Unless the market can tolerate higher prices the
total cost of labor has to be pretty static.

Thats bull**** when the bulk of the
employees are getting a higher wage.

If prices rise, it eats into that gain
you got from the wage hike.

Duh. And yet Canada works fine with the higher minimum wage.

"Jim Joyce" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 07:49:51 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

I remember taking a Pontiac that had an AC problem to a place that
specializes in auto AC. They had the car for two days, told me they
figured
out it was a bad switch in the panel. When I drove away, the AC worked,
but the check engine light was on. I didn't know what to do, figured
they
probably caused it, but would deny it, etc. I already had the service
manual
for the car, so I decided to check it out myself. Back then you could
short
two pins on the diagnostic connector and it would flash a code sequence on
the instrument panel. The code indicated a problem with the coolant temp
sensor. Seems unrelated, right? So I trace it down, there is no ground
coming
from the main engine computer to the sensor. That was very bad news.
But fortunately the module was easy to open up, which I did. Didn't take
long
to fine a blown out circuit trace on the PC board. I bridged it with some
solder,
put it back together, problem solved.

So, how did this happen? Obviously some incompetent hack trying to
diagnose
the AC was jumpering 12V here and there and blew it out. I was very
fortunate
to be able to diagnose and fix it. Imagine if I took it back, was the
typical customer.
You think they were going to admit what they did and pay for a $700
computer?
The dope that did it may not even realize he did it, but you'd think he
must have
seen some spark when he tried to connect this to that.

Many years ago I bought a used Toyota that was almost $5000 less expensive
than all of the similar vehicles in the area at the time. I didn't realize
until later that the automatic climate control didn't work. Everything
worked manually, but the auto part just blew full cold. The Toyota dealer
said it was a bad computer and would cost $3800 plus labor. Googling, I
found someone with the same problem and the responder asked what the
diagnostic code said. Hmm, a diagnostic code? Checking the factory service
manual, I saw that holding 3 buttons on the nav unit while turning on the
ignition would initiate a self-test. My codes were 11 and 21, with 11
being
'no daylight detected from the daylight sensor", which was normal because
it was dark, and 21, which said "no response detected from the cabin air
temp sensor", with a picture showing where that sensor is and how to
remove
and replace it. Reaching up under the dash, it was immediately obvious
that
the sensor was unplugged. I plugged it in, which cleared code 21, and it
worked for the next 15 years when I finally sold it.

Sometimes you get lucky, like I did, but I agree with y'all who are saying
that proper training is necessary these days. Without training, it's easy
to get into a mode where various parts get replaced, hoping each time that
the issue will be resolved.

You clearly didn't need any training to fix that fault and
clearly the training the dealer's useless mechanics had
didn't help them to work out what the problem was or
even work out how to get the diagnostic code either.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
news
On 2/27/2021 12:02 PM, Fred wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/27/2021 11:15 AM, Fred wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message


but once anything gets into the electrical system it will
take a lot of training and skill to solve the problem.

That's bull**** on the training. It isnt hard to check the plugs
to see if one of them looks bad and to try moving them around
if they look fine. And to try new plugs, that doesn't cost much.

Same if one of the electric windows stops working or the battery
goes flat much more quickly than it had done when it was new.

What about the ECM? Does you guy have what is needed to check it out
and change parameters?

Not only that, to reprogram it for better performance too.
Trivially buyable on the net.

What about the many microprocessors? How do you track them down?

You dont normally need to, they dont usually
fail and if say you diagnose that whats in the
'radio' or the screen has failed, you just replace it.

ECM problems are not "fixed" with a tune chip.

It wasnt clear that that is what you were still asking about.

And we arent talking about a tune chip.

Fact is, microprocessors do fail.

Fact os even the dealer doesnt replace a failed microprocessor
in the ECM. The whole thing is refurbished by a specialist in the
rare situation where one of the microprocessors has failed.

Just replace the radio? A head unit for my car lists at $3000.

No one internally repair the radio anymore unless
its a simple cabling fault or something like that.

The more you go on how simple it is the more you show how little you know
of new cars.

How odd that I am in fact assisting that mate of mine
with reprogramming the ECM in those Mercs and with
getting the right radio unlock code as well.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 07:27:58 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

07:27??? LOL So you HAVE been up and trolling ALL NIGHT LONG, yet AGAIN, you
sick subnormal senile swine!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 07:32:02 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Keema Nam addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You are now exposed as a liar, as well as an ignorant troll."
"MID: .com"

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 08:10:20 -0800 (PST), trader_4 posted for all of us to
digest...


On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 3:45:03 AM UTC-5, Fred wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:17:00 +1100, "Fred" wrote:



"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/26/2021 9:20 PM, Fred wrote:



Oh, as in someone with training?

Nope, those who choose to specialise in that area.

How did they learn?

By doing it, just like any decent mechanic does.

Came to them in a dream?

Nope.

You made my point. You no longer go to Smokey's CB shop up the road.

Wrong, that is precisely who do specialise in that stuff.

Yep, they learned in a dream on night.

Nope, by doing it.

Yes I have, and got an unlock code for one in one of the
used Mercs that a mate of mine buys off ebay, fixes and
sells for twice what he paid for them, by fixing their fault.


Yes, one person.

Plenty more than one person that even I know.

It isn't just a radio any more. Navigation, cameras, sat reception,
connected services, modems, and more.

Yep, and that's part of the reason its specialists that do most of
the
work.

Exactly, people with some training.

Still wrong, they don't have formal training. they just specialise in
it.

Where did they learn it?

By doing it.

Bull****. My mechanic mate hasn't had any.

OK, a sample of 1 Very scientific.

None of the others I know have either.

If the glass company does not have the instruments you do. Some now
have them, not all do. As the systems become more commonplace they
are
investing in the equipment. Genesis dealers get about $125 for it.

But those operations don't go back to school to learn how to do it.

They use the documentation that comes with it.

WTF do you think that is? A form of training.

Bull**** it is, just like it isnt with any appliance
or the car you buy.

And it still makes no sense for the state to require 4 years
of formal training before you can work as a mechanic.

I never said 4 years. But a competent shop today has assorted
training
for their certified mechanics.

And the best mechanics don't need that.

Try running a dealership without it

I know one that has done just that.

I guess you don't mind these guys working on your car.

In fact I do all the work on my car myself.

Another sample of 1

Plenty of others do that too.

And we wonder why "STEALERSHIPS" have such a bad reputation -
particularly in the unregulated redneck states and why everyone
in the USA seams to be continually bitching about "mechanics" -
because they very seldom actually are dealing with a properly
trained, educated, cerified and regulated "professional" mechanic.
Its no news that plenty of mechanics don't have
a ****ing clue with more difficult faults, even the
ones with 4 years of professional education.

Even you must have noticed in your time in Africa that
there are plenty of very decent mechanics that do fine
without any formal education in mechanics at all.

But our vehicles aren't your 1965 pickup that you use to feed the kangaroos, stupid.

Who is this Fred? I must have him blocked as I'm not seeing any of his posts...

--
Tekkie

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 00:29:25 -0500, Clare Snyder posted for all of us to
digest...


On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 13:20:52 +1100, "Fred" wrote:

No use arguing with a fool - it's like mud-wrestling with a pig.
He (Fred) is abviously willfully ignorant - We are all born ignorant,
but it's a full-time job to remain ignorant all your life.

Thanks, that answered my question of who Fred was. I have him in the Bozo bin.

--
Tekkie

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
news
On 2/27/2021 12:02 PM, Fred wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/27/2021 11:15 AM, Fred wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message


but once anything gets into the electrical system it will
take a lot of training and skill to solve the problem.

That's bull**** on the training. It isnt hard to check the plugs
to see if one of them looks bad and to try moving them around
if they look fine. And to try new plugs, that doesn't cost much.

Same if one of the electric windows stops working or the battery
goes flat much more quickly than it had done when it was new.

What about the ECM? Does you guy have what is needed to check it out
and change parameters?

Not only that, to reprogram it for better performance too.
Trivially buyable on the net.

What about the many microprocessors? How do you track them down?

You dont normally need to, they dont usually
fail and if say you diagnose that whats in the
'radio' or the screen has failed, you just replace it.

Just replace the radio? A head unit for my car lists at $3000.

Vastly cheaper for one out of a car that isnt economic
to repair after a crash or when someone decided that
they prefer something different to the original in their car.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:54:15 -0500, posted for all of us to
digest...


On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 20:59:13 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 2/26/2021 8:28 PM, Fred wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/26/2021 4:42 PM, Fred wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/26/2021 1:12 PM, Fred wrote:


Yes, I know many states do not regulate automotive technicians
with a mandatory licensing system - but they SHOULD.

That's completely mad. Anyone with real mechanical skills doesn't
need 4 years of study to do a decent job on modern cars.

And I know quite a few "mechanics" with university degrees
who went "back to school" to get a trade after their university
degrees didn't get them a "job"

And I know quite a few mechanics that never need to go back to
school to turn a pile of rusting metal into a fully restored
vintage car.

I know people like that too.* Some could not change the radio on a
new car though, an a lot of the other electronics.

That stuff is normally left to car radio specialists.

Some won't touch them.

The specialists do.


Oh, as in someone with training? You made my point. You no longer go
to Smokey's CB shop up the road.

I am not sure what trick is necessary to install a car entertainment
system. Virtually any car made in this century is pre wired for it and
DIN mount systems just snap in. You will need the right adapter
harness to connect a 3d party system to the OEM harness but this
pretty easy stuff.
The "radio" (nav, mp3 player, cd/dvd or whatever) is a FRU. (Field
Replaceable Unit)
I doubt anyone actually fixes them these days, at least not as a
business. You don't see a TV repair shop in every strip mall these
days either.

The trouble comes in when the owners want something installed; like a backup
camera that wasn't original to the vehicle. The vehicles have networks that if
something is hung on then the network crashes. The saving grace in this the
'installers' do such a crappy job it only crashes it intermittently.

Sure there are adapters available but what if this 'installer' just grabs a
backup light wire to power it because he doesn't have the correct adapter? Add
a few Scotchlock connectors, wires joined by twisting and covering in tape,
intermittent grounds. A recipe for disaster. In many cases there is no room for
adapters and the dash modules are part of the main brain.

I worked with a guy who claimed he was a mechanic - VW bugs. He got a remote
start installed on his Hyundai by a guy he knew. I went out in the parking lot
going to a site and saw him laid out under the car muttering to himself. The
next day I come in the parking lot I see glittering on the asphalt. I went over
and looked at a pile of crimped and cut terminals. Pieces of wire and hunks of
tape. And smiled. The owner had problems about a month later with electrical
system problems. I don't think he found the guy because he wasn't the most
pleasant guy to begin with and didn't talk about it with anyone. IIRC he
crashed it and bought a new one with OEM remote start.

--
Tekkie

On 2/27/2021 4:46 PM, Fred wrote:


Just replace the radio?Â* A head unit for my car lists at $3000.

Vastly cheaper for one out of a car that isnt economic
to repair after a crash or when someone decided that
they prefer something different to the original in their car.



Of course used is cheaper. something different? Not so easy. The 2017
model has improvements over the 2016 and people have not been able to
get all the electronics involved to work. The 2018 is different too,
now has ACP and AA integrated. Not wireless though.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/27/2021 4:46 PM, Fred wrote:


Just replace the radio? A head unit for my car lists at $3000.

Vastly cheaper for one out of a car that isnt economic
to repair after a crash or when someone decided that
they prefer something different to the original in their car.

Of course used is cheaper.

So your original was stupid.

something different? Not so easy.

Easy enough if you know what you are doing and you
dont need training for that, just know what you are doing.

The 2017 model has improvements over the 2016 and people have not been
able to get all the electronics involved to work.

Only the ones that dont know what they are doing.

The 2018 is different too, now has ACP and AA integrated. Not wireless
though.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:04:35 +1100, Fred, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

10:04 already??? And you are STILL up and trolling? After you've been
trolling since 01:48 (your first post), ALL NIGHT LONG, yet AGAIN, you
subnormal trolling senile swine?

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:03:10 +1100, "Fred" wrote:



"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 08:42:12 +1100, "Fred" wrote:



I'lL call you on your BS

We'll see...

The OBDII tells you what reading is
out of spec. That is ALL it tells you.

Bull**** with plenty of cars.

No - ODB2 is a standard - all cars tell you exactly the same thing
from the standardized error codes.

You are BS ing the wrong guy. I am not only a trained mechanic but I
TRAINED mechanics

It takes an educated professional to know what can cause that
reading to be wrong and how to test and PROVE what the problem is

More bull****. Plenty of the best mechanics can do that,
they don't need to be educated to do that and never have.



instead of throwing half a dozeh expensive components at the car, then
cross their fingers and hope they didn't STILL miss the real problem.

The best mechanics don't operate like that.
The best mechanics have had training

That's why the "pinpoint tests" in the factory manual for a given
error code can cover 7 pages in the factory manual - and why the
print version of a typical factory manual con be over 6 inches thick.

And the best mechanics are free to use that.

(and cost several hundred dollars

Not anymore now that they are often trivially downloadable.

- and why they are virtually all now in electronic
format indexed 7 ways to sunday) Many won't fit on
a CD any more - and some require double layer DVDs.

And the best mechanics don't need them for most faults.

Servicing variable valve timing and gasoline direct injection,
not to mention computer controlled transmissions and
turbocharged engines and anti-lock brakes, and active
colission avoidance, and traction control - and canbus
controlled door locking systems - and even tail-lights
with computers in them -

Good luck sucker of you don't have
a well trained mechanic working on it.

Mate of mine that fixes Mercs has no formal training
and always works out what the problem is. That's
why so many get him to do the curly stuff.

Just the electrical wiring will blow the mind of most "mr fixits"
- whenthe doors lockand unlock by themselves driving down
the road - or the alarm goes off in the middle of the night -
or the windows go up or down by themselves (or don't when
you want them to) or the car won't start or the doors won't
unlock (or lock) from the FOB - or the airbag light comes on
- and particularly when the problems are intermittent - - -.

Those faults arent common at all.

They aren't? Drive a Chevy.

There are no "adjustments" any more - sure. They require
less scheduled maintenance - for sure - but those are the
SIMPLE jobs that the uneducated guy with grease under
his fingers and a $50 tool kit could do.

So those individuals are fine in the service stations
that still do more than just pump gas. No need for
the state to require 4 years of formal education
before they are allowed to do that stuff.

Also, Today's cars , on the whole - have a LOT more miles on them.

That's very arguable with the cars most of us drive.

A car with 10000 miles on it is just nicely broken
in and you are not going to scrap it just because
there is one small problem that you can't fix

But plenty still get a new car every couple of years.

The AVERAGE age of the American fleet is over 12 years.
Back in the sixties a 10 year old car was he exception and many were
junk at 6. Today most cars will go 200,000 miles, and quite a few go
300,000

(but you would be surprised how many cars end up scrapped for
what would have amounted to a "simple" problem 15 years ago )
because you don't have a properly trained mechanic to fix it.

Yep, that's why that mate of mine buys those turbo Mercs off
ebay, fixes the problem, and flogs them for twice what he paid
for the original and the parts. With no formal training at all.

ANd just for the safety and liability reasons untrained
people should NOT be screwing around with safety
related stuff - even "simple" stuff like brakes

Bull****. Any decent mechanic can replace brake pads etc.

We've all seen the posts from guys (possibly even guys like you)
asking what to do next to fix whatever small problem on their car
after replacing half a dozen or more parts - at a cost of several
hundred dollars - that an educated mechanic could have told
you in 10 seconds, without seeing the car, were NOT going to
be the problem just from how you describe the problem - - - - .

Just as true of any decent uneducated mechanic and
anyone that can do some research using google too.

Its no news that most don't have decent diagnostic skills
but that's an entirely separate matter to whether 4 years
of formal education is needed by the best mechanics.

Many times it's "my mechanic has replaced all
these parts and it still has the problem" or "I've
haf 4 mechanics look at it and they don't have a clue"

Its no news that many mechanics don't have
a clue with all but the most basic routine stuff.

Right - they are noit properlyt trained -
and they LITERALLY don't have a clue.

Plenty were properly trained and still don't have
any real diagnostic skills, because most don't.

I'm outa here.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:44:47 +1100, "Fred" wrote:


And we wonder why "STEALERSHIPS" have such a bad reputation -
particularly in the unregulated redneck states and why everyone
in the USA seams to be continually bitching about "mechanics" -
because they very seldom actually are dealing with a properly
trained, educated, cerified and regulated "professional" mechanic.

Its no news that plenty of mechanics don't have
a ****ing clue with more difficult faults, even the
ones with 4 years of professional education.

Even you must have noticed in your time in Africa that
there are plenty of very decent mechanics that do fine
without any formal education in mechanics at all.


NOT. That's why I was there teaching them
Even your "ASE Certified" designation
is a bit of a sorry JOKE, by and large.

So its silly to require that before you can work on cars.

ASE Certified isn't an apprenticeship or even a real training
standard

ANd as for guys with no training working on their
own cars - BOY, could I tell you some stories!!!!!

Its no news that most don't have any real capacity to
even work out why their lawn mower isnt working!!!!!

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:35:41 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Makes no sense to require formal qualifications.

I'lL call you on your BS
The OBDII tells you what reading is out of spec. That is ALL it tells
you. It takes an educated professional to know what can cause that
reading to be wrong and how to test and PROVE what the problem is
instead of throwing half a dozeh expensive components at the car, then
cross their fingers and hope they didn't STILL miss the real problem.
That's why the "pinpoint tests" in the factory manual for a given
error code can cover 7 pages in the factory manual - and why the print
version of a typical factory manual con be over 6 inches thick. (and
cost several hundred dollars - and why they are virtually all now in
electronic format indexed 7 ways to sunday) Many won't fit on a CD any
more - and some require double layer DVDs.
Servicing variable valve timing and gasoline direct injection, not to
mention computer controlled transmissions and turbocharged engines and
anti-lock brakes, and active colission avoidance, and traction control
- and canbus controlled door locking systems - and even tail-lights
with computers in them -
Good luck sucker of you don't have a well trained mechanic working on
it. Just the electrical wiring will blow the mind of most "mr fixits"
- whenthe doors lockand unlock by themselves driving down the road -
or the alarm goes off in the middle of the night - or the windows go
up or down by themselves (or don't when you want them to) or the car
won't start or the doors won't unlock (or lock) from the FOB - or the
airbag light comes on - and particularly when the problems are
intermittent - - -. There are no "adjustments" any more - sure. They
require less scheduled maintenance - for sure - but those are the
SIMPLE jobs that the uneducated guy with grease under his fingers and
a $50 tool kit could do.




Engines are getting more complicated all the time. I just bought a John
Deere x590 lawn tractor. The engine on it is fuel injected. All kinds
of electrical wiring to make it work. That is just for about a 25 hp 2
cylinder engine. While it would not take a 2 or 4 year college type
course on that, I would think that some few days of training from the
factory would be needed to work on it.

As to cars I am sure most anyone could do the simple jobs like brakes
and plug and light bulb changes, but once anything gets into the
electrical system it will take a lot of training and skill to solve the
problem. I bought a 1972 Dodge Demon. It had some kind of electrical
system for the engine that was relative new. That car about once every
week would not start. The engine would turn over, but would not fire
off at all. Could do it to the battery would almost run down and
finally it would start except about once a month it had to be towed in
as it would not start. As it was a manual transmisssion funny thing was
that after the battery would almost run down, it could be started by
puahing it off very easy.
I had it back a number of times and finally at about 18,000 miles traded
it in for another car. I had made a mistake of paying cash for that
car. Had I not , I would have let it go back after the 2 nd month I had
it.
I can diagnose that one from here. It had a double ballast resistor
on the firewall and one of the resistors was intermittent. It provided
power to the coil when you cranked the engine. If it fired when you
released the key it started. If it didn't, it didn't. It ran on the
other half of the resistor. COMMON problem back then (that, as you
know, flummoxed a LOT of "mechanics" who did not understand the
system.Back then it was a $5 part. I always had 2 mounted on the
firewall so an on-the-road fix took about 20 seconds.
A couple years later the system was re-designed to not need that
resistor

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 03:15:28 +1100, "Fred" wrote:



"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

Makes no sense to require formal qualifications.

I'lL call you on your BS
The OBDII tells you what reading is out of spec. That is ALL it tells
you. It takes an educated professional to know what can cause that
reading to be wrong and how to test and PROVE what the problem is
instead of throwing half a dozeh expensive components at the car, then
cross their fingers and hope they didn't STILL miss the real problem.
That's why the "pinpoint tests" in the factory manual for a given
error code can cover 7 pages in the factory manual - and why the print
version of a typical factory manual con be over 6 inches thick. (and
cost several hundred dollars - and why they are virtually all now in
electronic format indexed 7 ways to sunday) Many won't fit on a CD any
more - and some require double layer DVDs.
Servicing variable valve timing and gasoline direct injection, not to
mention computer controlled transmissions and turbocharged engines and
anti-lock brakes, and active colission avoidance, and traction control
- and canbus controlled door locking systems - and even tail-lights
with computers in them -
Good luck sucker of you don't have a well trained mechanic working on
it. Just the electrical wiring will blow the mind of most "mr fixits"
- whenthe doors lockand unlock by themselves driving down the road -
or the alarm goes off in the middle of the night - or the windows go
up or down by themselves (or don't when you want them to) or the car
won't start or the doors won't unlock (or lock) from the FOB - or the
airbag light comes on - and particularly when the problems are
intermittent - - -. There are no "adjustments" any more - sure. They
require less scheduled maintenance - for sure - but those are the
SIMPLE jobs that the uneducated guy with grease under his fingers and
a $50 tool kit could do.


What an ignorant ass


Engines are getting more complicated all the time. I just bought a John
Deere x590 lawn tractor. The engine on it is fuel injected. All kinds
of electrical wiring to make it work. That is just for about a 25 hp 2
cylinder engine. While it would not take a 2 or 4 year college type
course on that, I would think that some few days of training from the
factory would be needed to work on it.

You'd be wrong. Plenty of decent mechanics do what is necessary
with fuel injected cars now without any training at all.

Yes, plenty like you do the shotgun approach when say
the engine is running rough, changing everything that is
easy to change to see if that fixes it, first the plugs, then the
leads etc but that's not how the best mechanics do things.

Anyone with any real diagnostic skills considers what
can produce the symptoms seen and sees if the OBD2
has anything to say about what has failed. You don't
need training for that, just be a competent diagnostician.

As to cars I am sure most anyone could do the simple
jobs like brakes and plug and light bulb changes,

And that's all that needs fixing with most modern
cars before you replace it for other reasons.

but once anything gets into the electrical system it will
take a lot of training and skill to solve the problem.

That's bull**** on the training. It isnt hard to check the plugs
to see if one of them looks bad and to try moving them around
if they look fine. And to try new plugs, that doesn't cost much.

Same if one of the electric windows stops working or the battery
goes flat much more quickly than it had done when it was new.

I bought a 1972 Dodge Demon. It had some kind of electrical
system for the engine that was relative new. That car about once
every week would not start. The engine would turn over, but
would not fire off at all. Could do it to the battery would almost
run down and finally it would start except about once a month
it had to be towed in as it would not start. As it was a manual
transmisssion funny thing was that after the battery would almost
run down, it could be started by puahing it off very easy.

Sure there will always be some curly faults, but a decent mechanic
doesn't need training to fix them, just decent diagnostic skills.

I had it back a number of times and finally at about 18,000 miles traded
it in for another car. I had made a mistake of paying cash for that car.
Had I not , I would have let it go back after the 2 nd month I had it.

Yes, you are one of those that need training. Decent mechanics don't.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:32:28 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I had it back a number of times and finally at about 18,000 miles traded
it in for another car. I had made a mistake of paying cash for that car.
Had I not , I would have let it go back after the 2 nd month I had it.

Yes, you are one of those that need training. Decent mechanics don't.




I had that car looked at by the Dodge dealer mechanics in two different
towns. So that must mean neither dealer had a decent mecchanic.
I'd bet money on it. What state are you in?

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 03:57:43 +1100, "Fred" wrote:



"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

I had it back a number of times and finally at about 18,000 miles
traded
it in for another car. I had made a mistake of paying cash for that
car.
Had I not , I would have let it go back after the 2 nd month I had it.

Yes, you are one of those that need training. Decent mechanics don't.

I had that car looked at by the Dodge dealer mechanics in two different
towns. So that must mean neither dealer had a decent mecchanic.

Yes it does. And clearly the training they had didn't help them with that
curly fault.

Wasn't "curly" at all.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:13:14 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:35:41 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

As to cars I am sure most anyone could do the simple jobs like brakes
and plug and light bulb changes, but once anything gets into the
electrical system it will take a lot of training and skill to solve the
problem. I bought a 1972 Dodge Demon. It had some kind of electrical
system for the engine that was relative new. That car about once every
week would not start. The engine would turn over, but would not fire
off at all. Could do it to the battery would almost run down and
finally it would start except about once a month it had to be towed in
as it would not start. As it was a manual transmisssion funny thing was
that after the battery would almost run down, it could be started by
puahing it off very easy.
I had it back a number of times and finally at about 18,000 miles traded
it in for another car. I had made a mistake of paying cash for that
car. Had I not , I would have let it go back after the 2 nd month I had
it.

What does let it go back mean? I have an idea, but it can't be right.
He means stop making payments and send it back

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:19:29 -0500, Heywood wrote:

On 2/27/2021 12:54 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:51:59 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 9:45:06 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:51 AM, wrote:
On Friday, February 26, 2021 at 9:43:15 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:27 AM, wrote:
On 2/26/21 9:01 AM, micky wrote:
OT Why $7.50 is enough

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1807595.html


"Republican Senator John Thune has rejected an effort from congressional
Democrats to raise the federal minimum wage from $7.25 an hour to $15,
pointing to his $6 or less hourly wages that he earned working at a
restaurant as a “kid”."


Thune graduated from Jones County High School in Murdo, South Dakota in
1979, when a $6 hourly wage – adjusted to modern inflation rates – would
amount to roughly $23 in 2021 dollars.

But he thinks, or he wants you to think, that if he got by on $6 or
less, people 41 years later should get by on 7.50.

If you don't want minimum wage, don't have minimum skills.

Are you aware that there are people who, no matter how hard they try,
will never have more than minimum skills? The retarded bagger at the
grocery store, for example.

Next you'll be bitching that those minimal-skills people are getting
food stamps because they can't afford to live on minimum wage.

Try not to trip as you step across their dead bodies in the streets.

Cindy Hamilton

Here's the thing Cindy: Every barrel has a top, a middle and a bottom.

I know that.

My guess is your rose-colored glasses prevent you from seeing that
bottom and accepting that every barrel has one.

Nope, I can accept that. But I'd rather see the bottom of the barrel
paid enough for their labor to live on, rather than sucking at the
public teat. Apparently you like to see your tax dollars pay for
Welfare.

Cindy Hamilton

As Clare pointed out, a high minimum wage just makes a shorter barrel.
The top wage will be slow to move as the bottom wage starts catching
up to it. Unless the market can tolerate higher prices the total cost
of labor has to be pretty static. If prices rise, it eats into that
gain you got from the wage hike.


But you have to maintain some balance. If you look at CEO wage gains
they are far ahead of any other segment in the workplace. Sure, they
deserve a good wage but should the underlings have to rely on government
subsidies to feed themselves?

I don't think the law should put a maximum wage, but it is like ethics
is gone in some places when top end is getting 7 figures and bottom end
is getting Federal minimum.
That's where a fair and equitable tax comes in.