On 2/19/2021 5:40 AM, wrote:
On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 12:09:16 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

I borrowed $40K for college and my wife borrowed $35K. For both of us, the
loans have been paid off long ago, but the experience leads me to believe
that, depending on specific requirements and restrictions, higher education
should be free*, just as formal K-12 education is free*.

I disagree, although the solution I propose might be just as expensive.

From what I can see, most high schools push nearly all their students
to what we used to call the college-prep track, and have gutted the
"industrial arts" programs. Bring back the idea that high schools prepare
their students for what they'll actually face when they leave. Some
students will go to a four-year university. Most students will require
some additional education, including two-year programs, vocational
training, and apprenticeships (I can hear everybody laughing).

Additionally, make that additional education more affordable. Public
universities need to keep their undergraduate tuition in check. For
advanced degrees in practical subjects--especially medicine and
dentistry--a system of subsidy in return for post-graduation work in
areas where their skills are most needed.

But people tend not to value things that they get for free. Make those
kids pay _something_ for their higher education, but not so they leave
school with crushing debt.

Cindy Hamilton

My brother had some National Merit scholarships. The one he chose paid
100% of everything and his study was mechanical engineering. It was
sponsored by the Department of the Navy. His only obligation was he had
to work for them for 2 years at competitive wages. He stayed on for 30
years.

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 11:56:30 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 15:33:19 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:
On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 5:04:20 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
CNN had two people on to talk about the proposed rebate on college
loans. Because I only listen, I don't know who they were. Sometimes
one is from each party but this time, they might both have been
Democrats.

Anyone, one of them was wanting a $50,000 rebate instead of 10 like Joe
wants (and he said no to 50). And she said roughly, a real leader
would do something about college tuition.

What a jackass. Doesn't she pay attention? In the campaign and again
last night Joe said that junior college** should be free and state
schools should be free to those with parents earning under 75K or 100K,
something like that. What more does she want

50K-10K obviously. Feel free to speak out against AOC, Bernie, etc
at any time.

and Biden has been saying
it for months. I'm going to try to find out who she was. It's too soon
for there to be anything on the web.

So what? He's the president, but many others in your party, who
he keeps caving in to, want more freebies, using borrowed money.
He just killed 10K+ high paying jobs on the XL pipeline so more
What I'm hearing is that about 1000 temporary jobs were killed by Biden's
executive order, so the 10K+ that you're talking about were probably future
hires.

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2021/01/22/keystone-pipeline-jobs-lost-joe-biden-executive-order-cancel-fact-check/6673822002/
https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/verify/verify-yes-thousands-jobs-lost-after-biden-axes-keystone-xl-pipeline-but-not-as-many-as-these-posts-claim/77-8955155e-457d-4fc2-bbd9-35ea8df83ee3

It's also interesting that only about 1.2 miles of pipeline have been
completed, so Biden caught the problem before it was too late. The pipeline
was a very bad idea and I'm happy to see it canceled.
stupid things to appease people like you doesn't seem unexpected.
Feel free to condemn killing those jobs in the midst of a recession
and Covid at any time.
I would change condemn to support.

So you have no problems with the US govt going back on it's approval and screwing
investors? How would you like it if they took your investment without compensation?
I hope that gets challenged and overturned in the courts. As to the job and huge
economic loss, here is what the Sec of State wrote in 2015:

"Construction spending on the proposed Project was found to support a combined total of approximately 42,100 jobs throughout the United States for the up to two-year construction period. Of these jobs, approximately 16,100 would be direct jobs supported at firms that are awarded contracts for goods and services, including construction, by Keystone. The other approximately 26,000 jobs would result from indirect and induced spending. [€¦] About 12,000 jobs, or 29 percent of the total 42,100 jobs, would be supported in Montana, South Dakota, Nebraska, and Kansas.

Of the 42,100 supported jobs described above, approximately 3,900 (or 1,950 per year if construction took two years) would comprise a direct, temporary, construction workforce in the proposed Project area. Employment supported by construction of the proposed project would translate to approximately 2.05 billion in employee earnings. Of this, approximately 20 percent ($405 million in earnings) would be allocated to workers in the proposed Project area. The remaining 80 percent, or $1.6 billion, would occur in other locations around the country."

That Sec of State was John Kerry. And the freaking oil is going to be used,
it's being shipped across the US in railroad tankers, far more dangerous and spewing
far more CO2 and other pollutants than an efficient pipeline. You Democrats have
already boosted the price of gasoline by 25%, it's up 50 cents a gallon thanks to
stupidity like this. And this is why I don't have respect for most environmentalists.
They are just as extreme, just as nutty as Qanon or the Proud Boys. They just screwed
American workers, American taxpayers, Canada and all the investors in the midst
of an economy already in disaster. The Democrats think govt should create jobs,
that's the answer team Biden gave them. The poor *******s he put out of jobs in
the middle of Covid in North Dakota are supposed to get a job making solar gear.
That's what Kerry told them, no worries the feds are going to make that happen.
Solyndra? 123 Batteries? Fiskar Auto? The govt lost trillions on their last try
at that, $500 bil on Solyndra alone. Gee, start a business, borrow all you want,
the govt will guarantee it, who could have thought there would be problems with
that? But they are just like the USSR, failure after failure, but still have the govt
try to run the economy. Of all those new energy projects from a decade ago,
I don't think even one is still in business. But an economically viable project,
privately financed, already under constructions, billions invested, let's kill that
too and make even more economic losses for the country.

" wrote in message
...
On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 12:09:16 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

I borrowed $40K for college and my wife borrowed $35K. For both of us,
the
loans have been paid off long ago, but the experience leads me to believe
that, depending on specific requirements and restrictions, higher
education
should be free*, just as formal K-12 education is free*.

I disagree, although the solution I propose might be just as expensive.

From what I can see, most high schools push nearly all their students
to what we used to call the college-prep track, and have gutted the
"industrial arts" programs. Bring back the idea that high schools prepare
their students for what they'll actually face when they leave. Some
students will go to a four-year university. Most students will require
some additional education, including two-year programs, vocational
training, and apprenticeships (I can hear everybody laughing).

Additionally, make that additional education more affordable. Public
universities need to keep their undergraduate tuition in check. For
advanced degrees in practical subjects--especially medicine and
dentistry--a system of subsidy in return for post-graduation work in
areas where their skills are most needed.

But people tend not to value things that they get for free.
Make those kids pay _something_ for their higher education,
but not so they leave school with crushing debt.

Why does that make sense for higher education but not school education ?

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/19/2021 12:09 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:


I borrowed $40K for college and my wife borrowed $35K. For both of us,
the
loans have been paid off long ago, but the experience leads me to believe
that, depending on specific requirements and restrictions, higher
education
should be free*, just as formal K-12 education is free*.

*Yes, I know that nothing is free, so I don't need a reminder but I also
know that a better educated workforce translates to a much better
population overall.

The requirements and restrictions mentioned above could be things like
specific education programs supported rather than blanket tuition
avoidance, specific colleges allowed to participate rather than any old
group calling itself a 'university', and requirements on students to
maintain attendance and grade requirements.

Yes, "free" would be good with some controls. There are a lot of
professional students with degrees in decoupage and a masters in basket
weaving. There has to be some accountability.

The other problem with free higher education is that
some choose to be professional students, never leave,
do course after course after course at taxpayer expense.

Another problem is with trade trading. If that is free,
some will use it for their hobby, like welding etc. It
doesnt really make any sense for the taxpayer to be
paying for that either, they should pay for it themselves.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 2/19/2021 5:40 AM, wrote:
On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 12:09:16 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

I borrowed $40K for college and my wife borrowed $35K. For both of us,
the
loans have been paid off long ago, but the experience leads me to
believe
that, depending on specific requirements and restrictions, higher
education
should be free*, just as formal K-12 education is free*.

I disagree, although the solution I propose might be just as expensive.

From what I can see, most high schools push nearly all their students
to what we used to call the college-prep track, and have gutted the
"industrial arts" programs. Bring back the idea that high schools
prepare
their students for what they'll actually face when they leave. Some
students will go to a four-year university. Most students will require
some additional education, including two-year programs, vocational
training, and apprenticeships (I can hear everybody laughing).

Additionally, make that additional education more affordable. Public
universities need to keep their undergraduate tuition in check. For
advanced degrees in practical subjects--especially medicine and
dentistry--a system of subsidy in return for post-graduation work in
areas where their skills are most needed.

But people tend not to value things that they get for free. Make those
kids pay _something_ for their higher education, but not so they leave
school with crushing debt.

My brother had some National Merit scholarships. The one he chose paid
100% of everything and his study was mechanical engineering. It was
sponsored by the Department of the Navy. His only obligation was he had
to work for them for 2 years at competitive wages. He stayed on for 30
years.

We had something similar before ours went completely free for a while.
Most teachers got their degrees free and had to work for the education
dept for a specified number of years.

Now we have a system where you dont have to pay for your higher
education when being educated but have to start paying back the
debt once you start earning enough after graduating. Even if you
drop out of the higher education.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 04:14:27 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


The other problem with free higher education is

Another problem is with trade trading.

The real problem here is always off topic, bull****ting, senile idiots and
sociopaths like you, you subnormal senile pest!

--
Sqwertz to Rodent Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:52:51 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 11:50:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 09:56:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I doubt that anybody getting a degree in 4th Century Greek sculpture
could hack it at trade or technical school. Those disciplines require
aptitude.

Now, don't get me started on how useless most young people are because
they've spent their whole lives twiddling cell phone buttons or going to
"maker academy" where nothing has to be kludged together.



Yes, today the young people do not seem to be able to do simple repair
things around the house.
That is only because they never had a chance to be taught. "Shop"
disappeared from middle and high school in the 70s (probably because
educators didn't know which end of a hammer you hold) and we are
seeing the fallout now. Latinos are kicking our ass in the trades.

Funny, do they teach shop in Mexico and Honduras schools? Do Latinos
here go to different schools that do teach shop? The whole claims is wrong,
at least here in NJ. The schools district here has vocational schools that
teach trades like auto repair, HVAC, electrical, and yes, carpentry. That's
way more than just shop from 50 years ago. If FL hasn't kept up, maybe
that's because your state is too cheap, doesn't care and prefers low taxes.


They learn trades the old fashioned way, Their dad, uncle, brother
teaches them.
You are talking about a dedicated VoTec, not a regular school.
We have VoTecs but they are not pushed by the school system.


If
you don't speak a little Spanish you can't be a job super or a
contractor these days. I was helped being an inspector because I took
a Spanish class and I made the extra effort to expand that "do you
have a telephone" stuff into the terms used in construction.

That's true, but I suspect it has a lot more to do with Americans having
become lazy and unwilling to do hard manual labor. And even those that
will, most have half the productivity of immigrants. I have a friend who
builds golf courses and that has been his experience. You don't need
shop to know how to use a shovel.

Generally speaking based on our experience in construction, Mexicans
were masons and concrete, Guatemalans were manual labor (shovel guys),
Tile guys tended to be South American, Brazil or Colombia.
Cubans were electricians.
That started changing in the last 15 or 20 years and now you see a lot
of Mexican electricians. They really go fast, turning a plodding along
"union" job into an assembly line operation.
I suppose it is just a matter of time before they take over plumbing
and HVAC.
Right now those guys still seem to be old rednecks. There isn't much
acceptance of Latinos, either on the job or in the supply house.
The supply house is a real choke point because they get real picky
about who they will sell to and if you have to go to Home Depot or
other retail places, it is hard to be competitive with your price.
HVAC is the worst. Just go over to the HVAC newsgroup and ask a home
owner question. They will flame you out.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 03:58:12 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



" wrote in message
...
On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 12:09:16 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

I borrowed $40K for college and my wife borrowed $35K. For both of us,
the
loans have been paid off long ago, but the experience leads me to believe
that, depending on specific requirements and restrictions, higher
education
should be free*, just as formal K-12 education is free*.

I disagree, although the solution I propose might be just as expensive.

From what I can see, most high schools push nearly all their students
to what we used to call the college-prep track, and have gutted the
"industrial arts" programs. Bring back the idea that high schools prepare
their students for what they'll actually face when they leave. Some
students will go to a four-year university. Most students will require
some additional education, including two-year programs, vocational
training, and apprenticeships (I can hear everybody laughing).

Additionally, make that additional education more affordable. Public
universities need to keep their undergraduate tuition in check. For
advanced degrees in practical subjects--especially medicine and
dentistry--a system of subsidy in return for post-graduation work in
areas where their skills are most needed.

But people tend not to value things that they get for free.
Make those kids pay _something_ for their higher education,
but not so they leave school with crushing debt.

Why does that make sense for higher education but not school education ?

The people who need it the most put the least value on K-12 education
too.
Just look at the dropout and academic achievement numbers in our inner
cities.

On 2/19/2021 3:26 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 03:58:12 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



" wrote in message
...
On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 12:09:16 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

I borrowed $40K for college and my wife borrowed $35K. For both of us,
the
loans have been paid off long ago, but the experience leads me to believe
that, depending on specific requirements and restrictions, higher
education
should be free*, just as formal K-12 education is free*.

I disagree, although the solution I propose might be just as expensive.

From what I can see, most high schools push nearly all their students
to what we used to call the college-prep track, and have gutted the
"industrial arts" programs. Bring back the idea that high schools prepare
their students for what they'll actually face when they leave. Some
students will go to a four-year university. Most students will require
some additional education, including two-year programs, vocational
training, and apprenticeships (I can hear everybody laughing).

Additionally, make that additional education more affordable. Public
universities need to keep their undergraduate tuition in check. For
advanced degrees in practical subjects--especially medicine and
dentistry--a system of subsidy in return for post-graduation work in
areas where their skills are most needed.

But people tend not to value things that they get for free.
Make those kids pay _something_ for their higher education,
but not so they leave school with crushing debt.

Why does that make sense for higher education but not school education ?

The people who need it the most put the least value on K-12 education
too.
Just look at the dropout and academic achievement numbers in our inner
cities.



Then look at the effects of growing up in poverty on future success in life.

wrote in message
news
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 03:58:12 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



" wrote in message
...
On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 12:09:16 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

I borrowed $40K for college and my wife borrowed $35K. For both of us,
the
loans have been paid off long ago, but the experience leads me to
believe
that, depending on specific requirements and restrictions, higher
education
should be free*, just as formal K-12 education is free*.

I disagree, although the solution I propose might be just as expensive.

From what I can see, most high schools push nearly all their students
to what we used to call the college-prep track, and have gutted the
"industrial arts" programs. Bring back the idea that high schools
prepare
their students for what they'll actually face when they leave. Some
students will go to a four-year university. Most students will require
some additional education, including two-year programs, vocational
training, and apprenticeships (I can hear everybody laughing).

Additionally, make that additional education more affordable. Public
universities need to keep their undergraduate tuition in check. For
advanced degrees in practical subjects--especially medicine and
dentistry--a system of subsidy in return for post-graduation work in
areas where their skills are most needed.

But people tend not to value things that they get for free.
Make those kids pay _something_ for their higher education,
but not so they leave school with crushing debt.

Why does that make sense for higher education but not school education ?

The people who need it the most put the least value on K-12 education
too.

But we don't in fact see those whose parents pay for their school education
value it more than those in the same social class who get it for free.

Just look at the dropout and academic achievement
numbers in our inner cities.

That's not because they get it for free.

When we had free post school education for all, we
didn't see a higher dropout rate. There was a lower
academic achievement rate but that was because
anyone was admitted and many of them never saw
it as anything more than a way to avoid working.

And we still do that with out unemployed, make them do
free post school training or they don't get the dole anymore
and still see an atrocious rate of academic achievement and
a high dropout rate.

On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 08:19:24 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 23:27:03 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:34:04 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 06:58:19 -0500, Joe Bribem
wrote:

On 2/17/21 6:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He just killed 10K+ high paying jobs on the XL pipeline so more
stupid things to appease people like you doesn't seem unexpected.


Liquid energy still needs to be moved so someone will benefit. Who owns the trains?

Warren Buffett.


Not an expert on finance either, it seems.

If you find something where he might be an expert, please raise a flag. I
haven't found anything yet but there must be something, somewhere.


While Warren Buffett owns large stake in Union Pacific (I'm also a part owner myself),
there is also BNSF, NSC (part owner here) and a handful of smaller players.

All of which are publicly owned.

I know Berkshire Hathaway (Warren Buffett) owns BNSF and that seems to
have eluded Lurndal.
BNSF also hauls the bulk of the Canadian shale oil which is ALL I
alluded to.
Does B/H have share holders?
Sure but so does Amazon and we have no problem saying Bezos owns it.
What is good for Amazon is good for Bezos.

As for knowing a lot of things about a lot of things, I read a lot.

Reading isn't always about quantity. Quality is at least as important, if
not more so. Maybe the second half of that should get some additional
attention.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 19 Feb 2021 06:08:58 -0500, micky
wrote:



Missing from all of those schools is some kind of metal working class. You
get a little of that in an auto shop class, but not enough to make it
somewhat equivalent to what they teach in wood shop. I still use what I
learned in the mechanical drawing classes some 40 years ago. Before I build
a woodworking project, my weekend hobby, I draw the front, side, and top
views that I learned in mechanical drawing. I sometimes draw the 3D
perspective angle, but it's not usually needed.

We had woodshop and something about drafting in the 7th grade, I suppose
for a whole year. I remember that the drafting tables were built at the
prison in Pendleton Indiana.

My mother wanted a shoe rack that didn't have round dowels to hold the
shoes. She used it for 38 years. I have it now.

We had metal shop and a little printing in the 8th grade. I was going
to make a centerpunch or nailset but didn't finish. I still have that
and it's useful. For printing, each kid was supposed to bring in a
recipe, print it on 3x5 cards, and each of us got a set of them. Those
I don't have and I don't think my mother saved them either.

I looked on the JHS website but it didn't say anything about specific
classes.

I took autoshop as a senior, instead of 4th year Latin. Definitely a
full-year course, so the others probably were too.

This was, btw, the richest school district in Indiana, the north
sububurbs of Indianapolis. "Richest" is not saying a lot, in terms of
richness, but there were very few people who were poor, and the rate of
going to college was 60, 70, 80%.

Other than Catholic schools, I'm 90% sure there was only one private
girls school and one private boys school in town, and they were small.
Just about everyone except many Catholics went to public school. I
don't know what percent of Catholics did... I'd see three or 4 with
ashes on their forehead on Ash Wednesday. Maybe some took the whole
day off?

The webpage now says they serve breakfast every day, but I don't think
60 years ago there would have been anyone eating breakfast at school.
Even now, I don't know how that would work since the area is big, the
school bus got us there only a few minutes before class (but enough that
a shuttle bus could take high school students to the HS, 10 or 15
minutes away. Myabe that's when they eat breakfast)

I never noticed anyone drive their kid to school or pick him up, unless
maybe someone had a dentist's appointment. In high school a lot of
kids had cars. A friend had his wheels stolen while in the HS parking
lot, but only heard of that once. He didn't have a fancy car.

On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 06:17:17 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 11:56:30 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 15:33:19 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:
On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 5:04:20 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
CNN had two people on to talk about the proposed rebate on college
loans. Because I only listen, I don't know who they were. Sometimes
one is from each party but this time, they might both have been
Democrats.

Anyone, one of them was wanting a $50,000 rebate instead of 10 like Joe
wants (and he said no to 50). And she said roughly, a real leader
would do something about college tuition.

What a jackass. Doesn't she pay attention? In the campaign and again
last night Joe said that junior college** should be free and state
schools should be free to those with parents earning under 75K or 100K,
something like that. What more does she want

50K-10K obviously. Feel free to speak out against AOC, Bernie, etc
at any time.

and Biden has been saying
it for months. I'm going to try to find out who she was. It's too soon
for there to be anything on the web.

So what? He's the president, but many others in your party, who
he keeps caving in to, want more freebies, using borrowed money.
He just killed 10K+ high paying jobs on the XL pipeline so more
What I'm hearing is that about 1000 temporary jobs were killed by Biden's
executive order, so the 10K+ that you're talking about were probably future
hires.

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2021/01/22/keystone-pipeline-jobs-lost-joe-biden-executive-order-cancel-fact-check/6673822002/
https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/verify/verify-yes-thousands-jobs-lost-after-biden-axes-keystone-xl-pipeline-but-not-as-many-as-these-posts-claim/77-8955155e-457d-4fc2-bbd9-35ea8df83ee3

It's also interesting that only about 1.2 miles of pipeline have been
completed, so Biden caught the problem before it was too late. The pipeline
was a very bad idea and I'm happy to see it canceled.
stupid things to appease people like you doesn't seem unexpected.
Feel free to condemn killing those jobs in the midst of a recession
and Covid at any time.
I would change condemn to support.

So you have no problems with the US govt going back on it's approval and screwing
investors?

To me, the right answer is that the pipeline never should have received a
green light in the first place. Fortunately, the error was caught and
reversed very early on, before there was much of an impact. Even so, any
time a project gets shut down early there will be some people who are
affected. I don't know who the private investors are that you're talking
about, but I assume they were fully aware of how controversial the project
was and thus how risky their investments might be. People like that don't
usually invest money they can't afford to lose.

Besides, what are you proposing, exactly? That a project, once started,
must be continued no matter what? Surely, there must be some way to cut
bait when that's warranted.

How would you like it if they took your investment without compensation?

Not sure what you're talking about. If they were speculative investments,
then too bad. OTOH, if there was some kind of contract that guaranteed a
specific return, then they should explore their legal options.

I hope that gets challenged and overturned in the courts. As to the job and huge
economic loss, here is what the Sec of State wrote in 2015:

You're quoting 2015 while I quoted 2021.


"Construction spending on the proposed Project was found to support a combined total of approximately 42,100 jobs throughout the United States for the up to two-year construction period. Of these jobs, approximately 16,100 would be direct jobs supported at firms that are awarded contracts for goods and services, including construction, by Keystone. The other approximately 26,000 jobs would result from indirect and induced spending. […] About 12,000 jobs, or 29 percent of the total 42,100 jobs, would be supported in Montana, South Dakota, Nebraska, and Kansas.

Of the 42,100 supported jobs described above, approximately 3,900 (or 1,950 per year if construction took two years) would comprise a direct, temporary, construction workforce in the proposed Project area. Employment supported by construction of the proposed project would translate to approximately 2.05 billion in employee earnings. Of this, approximately 20 percent ($405 million in earnings) would be allocated to workers in the proposed Project area. The remaining 80 percent, or $1.6 billion, would occur in other locations around the country."

That Sec of State was John Kerry. And the freaking oil is going to be used,
it's being shipped across the US in railroad tankers, far more dangerous and spewing
far more CO2 and other pollutants than an efficient pipeline. You Democrats have
already boosted the price of gasoline by 25%, it's up 50 cents a gallon thanks to
stupidity like this. And this is why I don't have respect for most environmentalists.
They are just as extreme, just as nutty as Qanon or the Proud Boys. They just screwed
American workers, American taxpayers, Canada and all the investors in the midst
of an economy already in disaster. The Democrats think govt should create jobs,
that's the answer team Biden gave them. The poor *******s he put out of jobs in
the middle of Covid in North Dakota are supposed to get a job making solar gear.
That's what Kerry told them, no worries the feds are going to make that happen.
Solyndra? 123 Batteries? Fiskar Auto? The govt lost trillions on their last try
at that, $500 bil on Solyndra alone. Gee, start a business, borrow all you want,
the govt will guarantee it, who could have thought there would be problems with
that? But they are just like the USSR, failure after failure, but still have the govt
try to run the economy. Of all those new energy projects from a decade ago,
I don't think even one is still in business. But an economically viable project,
privately financed, already under constructions, billions invested, let's kill that
too and make even more economic losses for the country.

On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 16:27:17 -0800, Bob F wrote:

On 2/19/2021 3:26 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 03:58:12 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



" wrote in message
...
On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 12:09:16 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

I borrowed $40K for college and my wife borrowed $35K. For both of us,
the
loans have been paid off long ago, but the experience leads me to believe
that, depending on specific requirements and restrictions, higher
education
should be free*, just as formal K-12 education is free*.

I disagree, although the solution I propose might be just as expensive.

From what I can see, most high schools push nearly all their students
to what we used to call the college-prep track, and have gutted the
"industrial arts" programs. Bring back the idea that high schools prepare
their students for what they'll actually face when they leave. Some
students will go to a four-year university. Most students will require
some additional education, including two-year programs, vocational
training, and apprenticeships (I can hear everybody laughing).

Additionally, make that additional education more affordable. Public
universities need to keep their undergraduate tuition in check. For
advanced degrees in practical subjects--especially medicine and
dentistry--a system of subsidy in return for post-graduation work in
areas where their skills are most needed.

But people tend not to value things that they get for free.
Make those kids pay _something_ for their higher education,
but not so they leave school with crushing debt.

Why does that make sense for higher education but not school education ?

The people who need it the most put the least value on K-12 education
too.
Just look at the dropout and academic achievement numbers in our inner
cities.



Then look at the effects of growing up in poverty on future success in life.

If they blow off that $20,000 a year we throw at their K-12 education
every year they are never getting out of poverty.
Planning on your career in the NBA is only going to work for one in a
couple million of them.
Prison or dying in the street is a far more likely outcome.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 12:09:37 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
news
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 03:58:12 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



" wrote in message
...
On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 12:09:16 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

I borrowed $40K for college and my wife borrowed $35K. For both of us,
the
loans have been paid off long ago, but the experience leads me to
believe
that, depending on specific requirements and restrictions, higher
education
should be free*, just as formal K-12 education is free*.

I disagree, although the solution I propose might be just as expensive.

From what I can see, most high schools push nearly all their students
to what we used to call the college-prep track, and have gutted the
"industrial arts" programs. Bring back the idea that high schools
prepare
their students for what they'll actually face when they leave. Some
students will go to a four-year university. Most students will require
some additional education, including two-year programs, vocational
training, and apprenticeships (I can hear everybody laughing).

Additionally, make that additional education more affordable. Public
universities need to keep their undergraduate tuition in check. For
advanced degrees in practical subjects--especially medicine and
dentistry--a system of subsidy in return for post-graduation work in
areas where their skills are most needed.

But people tend not to value things that they get for free.
Make those kids pay _something_ for their higher education,
but not so they leave school with crushing debt.

Why does that make sense for higher education but not school education ?

The people who need it the most put the least value on K-12 education
too.

But we don't in fact see those whose parents pay for their school education
value it more than those in the same social class who get it for free.

Everyone that is not on welfare pays for that education, either in
direct property taxes or buried in their rent.

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 18 Feb 2021 22:56:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:



So what? He's the president, but many others in your party, who
he keeps caving in to, want more freebies, using borrowed money.
He just killed 10K+ high paying jobs on the XL pipeline so more

I just love the implicit argument that it's good to do bad things if it
creates jobs.

The question should be, Is it a good idea or not?

I had a friend in college who thought the Viet Nam war was a good thing
because it was good for the economy. I wasn't capable of judging the
war, but I know that's not a good reason.

What I'm hearing is that about 1000 temporary jobs were killed by Biden's
executive order, so the 10K+ that you're talking about were probably future
hires.

On 2/20/21 1:16 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
To me, the right answer is that the pipeline never should have received a
green light in the first place. Fortunately, the error was caught and
reversed very early on, before there was much of an impact.


We are all energy hogs.

If we're not going to build pipelines, we need more nuclear plants...now!

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 6:23:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:52:51 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 11:50:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 09:56:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I doubt that anybody getting a degree in 4th Century Greek sculpture
could hack it at trade or technical school. Those disciplines require
aptitude.

Now, don't get me started on how useless most young people are because
they've spent their whole lives twiddling cell phone buttons or going to
"maker academy" where nothing has to be kludged together.



Yes, today the young people do not seem to be able to do simple repair
things around the house.
That is only because they never had a chance to be taught. "Shop"
disappeared from middle and high school in the 70s (probably because
educators didn't know which end of a hammer you hold) and we are
seeing the fallout now. Latinos are kicking our ass in the trades.

Funny, do they teach shop in Mexico and Honduras schools? Do Latinos
here go to different schools that do teach shop? The whole claims is wrong,
at least here in NJ. The schools district here has vocational schools that
teach trades like auto repair, HVAC, electrical, and yes, carpentry. That's
way more than just shop from 50 years ago. If FL hasn't kept up, maybe
that's because your state is too cheap, doesn't care and prefers low taxes.

They learn trades the old fashioned way, Their dad, uncle, brother
teaches them.
You are talking about a dedicated VoTec, not a regular school.
We have VoTecs but they are not pushed by the school system.

It's not a dedictaed VoTec, it's part of our HS system. The issue was preparing
public school students for trade type jobs. You claimed that HS had
eliminated shop, so students can't learn skill like using a hammer.
I simply pointed out that it's actually gone the opposite way, that HS
students here have courses of study that teach HVAC, auto repair,
electrical trades, etc. School systems shouldn't be pushing anything.
They should and do help students assess their aptitudes, their abilities
and help guide them to career possibilities where they can succeed.






If
you don't speak a little Spanish you can't be a job super or a
contractor these days. I was helped being an inspector because I took
a Spanish class and I made the extra effort to expand that "do you
have a telephone" stuff into the terms used in construction.

That's true, but I suspect it has a lot more to do with Americans having
become lazy and unwilling to do hard manual labor. And even those that
will, most have half the productivity of immigrants. I have a friend who
builds golf courses and that has been his experience. You don't need
shop to know how to use a shovel.

Generally speaking based on our experience in construction, Mexicans
were masons and concrete, Guatemalans were manual labor (shovel guys),
Tile guys tended to be South American, Brazil or Colombia.
Cubans were electricians.
That started changing in the last 15 or 20 years and now you see a lot
of Mexican electricians. They really go fast, turning a plodding along
"union" job into an assembly line operation.
I suppose it is just a matter of time before they take over plumbing
and HVAC.
Right now those guys still seem to be old rednecks. There isn't much
acceptance of Latinos, either on the job or in the supply house.
The supply house is a real choke point because they get real picky
about who they will sell to and if you have to go to Home Depot or
other retail places, it is hard to be competitive with your price.
HVAC is the worst. Just go over to the HVAC newsgroup and ask a home
owner question. They will flame you out.

Since I do most of my own repairs, I haven't had a lot of experience with
all of that. But I think your observation about the HVAC guys is probably
right. I had not really thought about it, but from what I recall seeing in
the neighborhood, I don't see what you see with landscapers or roofers.
Same with electricians here.

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 7:27:21 PM UTC-5, Bob F wrote:
On 2/19/2021 3:26 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 03:58:12 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



" wrote in message
...
On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 12:09:16 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

I borrowed $40K for college and my wife borrowed $35K. For both of us,
the
loans have been paid off long ago, but the experience leads me to believe
that, depending on specific requirements and restrictions, higher
education
should be free*, just as formal K-12 education is free*.

I disagree, although the solution I propose might be just as expensive.

From what I can see, most high schools push nearly all their students
to what we used to call the college-prep track, and have gutted the
"industrial arts" programs. Bring back the idea that high schools prepare
their students for what they'll actually face when they leave. Some
students will go to a four-year university. Most students will require
some additional education, including two-year programs, vocational
training, and apprenticeships (I can hear everybody laughing).

Additionally, make that additional education more affordable. Public
universities need to keep their undergraduate tuition in check. For
advanced degrees in practical subjects--especially medicine and
dentistry--a system of subsidy in return for post-graduation work in
areas where their skills are most needed.

But people tend not to value things that they get for free.
Make those kids pay _something_ for their higher education,
but not so they leave school with crushing debt.

Why does that make sense for higher education but not school education ?

The people who need it the most put the least value on K-12 education
too.
Just look at the dropout and academic achievement numbers in our inner
cities.


Then look at the effects of growing up in poverty on future success in life.

Funny how a whole generation grew up during the Great Depression and
became successful. And that included blacks and other minorities.
Then for 50 years we poured trillions into welfare programs that paid people
to have more kids and to not have a father around. Imagine if that money
had been left with the taxpayers, how many jobs it would have created,
the improved economy that would have benefited everyone. But Democrats
never learn, idiots like Ying Yang want to just give everyone $12K a year.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:00:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 6:23:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:52:51 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 11:50:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 09:56:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I doubt that anybody getting a degree in 4th Century Greek sculpture
could hack it at trade or technical school. Those disciplines require
aptitude.

Now, don't get me started on how useless most young people are because
they've spent their whole lives twiddling cell phone buttons or going to
"maker academy" where nothing has to be kludged together.



Yes, today the young people do not seem to be able to do simple repair
things around the house.
That is only because they never had a chance to be taught. "Shop"
disappeared from middle and high school in the 70s (probably because
educators didn't know which end of a hammer you hold) and we are
seeing the fallout now. Latinos are kicking our ass in the trades.

Funny, do they teach shop in Mexico and Honduras schools? Do Latinos
here go to different schools that do teach shop? The whole claims is wrong,
at least here in NJ. The schools district here has vocational schools that
teach trades like auto repair, HVAC, electrical, and yes, carpentry. That's
way more than just shop from 50 years ago. If FL hasn't kept up, maybe
that's because your state is too cheap, doesn't care and prefers low taxes.

They learn trades the old fashioned way, Their dad, uncle, brother
teaches them.
You are talking about a dedicated VoTec, not a regular school.
We have VoTecs but they are not pushed by the school system.

It's not a dedictaed VoTec, it's part of our HS system. The issue was preparing
public school students for trade type jobs. You claimed that HS had
eliminated shop, so students can't learn skill like using a hammer.
I simply pointed out that it's actually gone the opposite way, that HS
students here have courses of study that teach HVAC, auto repair,
electrical trades, etc. School systems shouldn't be pushing anything.
They should and do help students assess their aptitudes, their abilities
and help guide them to career possibilities where they can succeed.

That is unusual if it is true.



If
you don't speak a little Spanish you can't be a job super or a
contractor these days. I was helped being an inspector because I took
a Spanish class and I made the extra effort to expand that "do you
have a telephone" stuff into the terms used in construction.

That's true, but I suspect it has a lot more to do with Americans having
become lazy and unwilling to do hard manual labor. And even those that
will, most have half the productivity of immigrants. I have a friend who
builds golf courses and that has been his experience. You don't need
shop to know how to use a shovel.

Generally speaking based on our experience in construction, Mexicans
were masons and concrete, Guatemalans were manual labor (shovel guys),
Tile guys tended to be South American, Brazil or Colombia.
Cubans were electricians.
That started changing in the last 15 or 20 years and now you see a lot
of Mexican electricians. They really go fast, turning a plodding along
"union" job into an assembly line operation.
I suppose it is just a matter of time before they take over plumbing
and HVAC.
Right now those guys still seem to be old rednecks. There isn't much
acceptance of Latinos, either on the job or in the supply house.
The supply house is a real choke point because they get real picky
about who they will sell to and if you have to go to Home Depot or
other retail places, it is hard to be competitive with your price.
HVAC is the worst. Just go over to the HVAC newsgroup and ask a home
owner question. They will flame you out.

Since I do most of my own repairs, I haven't had a lot of experience with
all of that. But I think your observation about the HVAC guys is probably
right. I had not really thought about it, but from what I recall seeing in
the neighborhood, I don't see what you see with landscapers or roofers.
Same with electricians here.

I suspect the old union guys that dominate your trades are racist.
You don't have much of that in a right to work state. People can do
anything they are capable of without kissing the ring of the local
union boss.

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 5:12:54 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 18 Feb 2021 22:56:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:



So what? He's the president, but many others in your party, who
he keeps caving in to, want more freebies, using borrowed money.
He just killed 10K+ high paying jobs on the XL pipeline so more
I just love the implicit argument that it's good to do bad things if it
creates jobs.

There is no "bad thing". It's oil for Christ's sake. It's oil that's already
being produced, already being transported across America by rail.
Moving it by pipeline is safer, releases far less CO2 and other pollutants.
It's coming from Canada, our ally. When Trump screwed Canada and
it's people with his trade war BS, woaaah, that was horrific according
to you. But your guy just screwed them, did something even worse,
and here you are defending it. After all, he's a Democrat, so it's OK.





The question should be, Is it a good idea or not?

That's fine BEFORE you give approval and construction is under way.
Now it just showed that the US is like Cuba, where the govt can just
decide to take your investment.



I had a friend in college who thought the Viet Nam war was a good thing
because it was good for the economy. I wasn't capable of judging the
war, but I know that's not a good reason.

Pathetic. It's an oil pipeline, not a war. And this is a good example of how
unreasonable, uncaring and stupid Democrats are too. It would have been
very easy for Biden to leave this alone. To decide not to kill thousands of
good, high paying jobs in the middle of a terrible economy. To decide that
it's wrong to screw investors, to screw Canada. To move toward the middle
with some cooperation, demonstrating that he is reasonable, not a radical.
Showing Republicans and the country that maybe he can bring us together.
Instead he sided with the crazy extremists.

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 9:35:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:00:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 6:23:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:52:51 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 11:50:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 09:56:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I doubt that anybody getting a degree in 4th Century Greek sculpture
could hack it at trade or technical school. Those disciplines require
aptitude.

Now, don't get me started on how useless most young people are because
they've spent their whole lives twiddling cell phone buttons or going to
"maker academy" where nothing has to be kludged together.



Yes, today the young people do not seem to be able to do simple repair
things around the house.
That is only because they never had a chance to be taught. "Shop"
disappeared from middle and high school in the 70s (probably because
educators didn't know which end of a hammer you hold) and we are
seeing the fallout now. Latinos are kicking our ass in the trades.

Funny, do they teach shop in Mexico and Honduras schools? Do Latinos
here go to different schools that do teach shop? The whole claims is wrong,
at least here in NJ. The schools district here has vocational schools that
teach trades like auto repair, HVAC, electrical, and yes, carpentry. That's
way more than just shop from 50 years ago. If FL hasn't kept up, maybe
that's because your state is too cheap, doesn't care and prefers low taxes.

They learn trades the old fashioned way, Their dad, uncle, brother
teaches them.
You are talking about a dedicated VoTec, not a regular school.
We have VoTecs but they are not pushed by the school system.

It's not a dedictaed VoTec, it's part of our HS system. The issue was preparing
public school students for trade type jobs. You claimed that HS had
eliminated shop, so students can't learn skill like using a hammer.
I simply pointed out that it's actually gone the opposite way, that HS
students here have courses of study that teach HVAC, auto repair,
electrical trades, etc. School systems shouldn't be pushing anything.
They should and do help students assess their aptitudes, their abilities
and help guide them to career possibilities where they can succeed.

That is unusual if it is true.



If
you don't speak a little Spanish you can't be a job super or a
contractor these days. I was helped being an inspector because I took
a Spanish class and I made the extra effort to expand that "do you
have a telephone" stuff into the terms used in construction.

That's true, but I suspect it has a lot more to do with Americans having
become lazy and unwilling to do hard manual labor. And even those that
will, most have half the productivity of immigrants. I have a friend who
builds golf courses and that has been his experience. You don't need
shop to know how to use a shovel.

Generally speaking based on our experience in construction, Mexicans
were masons and concrete, Guatemalans were manual labor (shovel guys),
Tile guys tended to be South American, Brazil or Colombia.
Cubans were electricians.
That started changing in the last 15 or 20 years and now you see a lot
of Mexican electricians. They really go fast, turning a plodding along
"union" job into an assembly line operation.
I suppose it is just a matter of time before they take over plumbing
and HVAC.
Right now those guys still seem to be old rednecks. There isn't much
acceptance of Latinos, either on the job or in the supply house.
The supply house is a real choke point because they get real picky
about who they will sell to and if you have to go to Home Depot or
other retail places, it is hard to be competitive with your price.
HVAC is the worst. Just go over to the HVAC newsgroup and ask a home
owner question. They will flame you out.

Since I do most of my own repairs, I haven't had a lot of experience with
all of that. But I think your observation about the HVAC guys is probably
right. I had not really thought about it, but from what I recall seeing in
the neighborhood, I don't see what you see with landscapers or roofers.
Same with electricians here.
I suspect the old union guys that dominate your trades are racist.
You don't have much of that in a right to work state. People can do
anything they are capable of without kissing the ring of the local
union boss.

You're really something. I pretty much agreed with your observation,
but suddenly NJ has racist unions? And there is no requirement to
be a member of a union here to be an HVAC guy, plumber, etc. Most
of the HVAC plumbers/electricians are small, family owned businesses.
And I strongly suspect that in 2021 if any union was excluding people
because of race, they would be in big trouble and under investigation.

wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote
Jim Joyce wrote

I borrowed $40K for college and my wife borrowed $35K.
For both of us, the loans have been paid off long ago, but
the experience leads me to believe that, depending on
specific requirements and restrictions, higher education
should be free*, just as formal K-12 education is free*.

I disagree, although the solution I propose might be just as
expensive.

From what I can see, most high schools push nearly all their students
to what we used to call the college-prep track, and have gutted the
"industrial arts" programs. Bring back the idea that high schools
prepare
their students for what they'll actually face when they leave. Some
students will go to a four-year university. Most students will
require
some additional education, including two-year programs, vocational
training, and apprenticeships (I can hear everybody laughing).

Additionally, make that additional education more affordable. Public
universities need to keep their undergraduate tuition in check. For
advanced degrees in practical subjects--especially medicine and
dentistry--a system of subsidy in return for post-graduation work in
areas where their skills are most needed.

But people tend not to value things that they get for free.
Make those kids pay _something_ for their higher education,
but not so they leave school with crushing debt.

Why does that make sense for higher education but not school education ?

The people who need it the most put the least value on K-12 education
too.

But we don't in fact see those whose parents pay for their school
education
value it more than those in the same social class who get it for free.

Everyone that is not on welfare pays for that education,
either in direct property taxes or buried in their rent.

Not those that get free accommodation from the work etc
or those whose parents etc pay the property taxes.

And its irrelevant to what we are discussing anyway,
whether paying for something directly has an effect
on whether they value that education.

On 2/20/2021 6:35 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:00:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 6:23:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:52:51 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 11:50:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 09:56:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I doubt that anybody getting a degree in 4th Century Greek sculpture
could hack it at trade or technical school. Those disciplines require
aptitude.

Now, don't get me started on how useless most young people are because
they've spent their whole lives twiddling cell phone buttons or going to
"maker academy" where nothing has to be kludged together.



Yes, today the young people do not seem to be able to do simple repair
things around the house.
That is only because they never had a chance to be taught. "Shop"
disappeared from middle and high school in the 70s (probably because
educators didn't know which end of a hammer you hold) and we are
seeing the fallout now. Latinos are kicking our ass in the trades.

Funny, do they teach shop in Mexico and Honduras schools? Do Latinos
here go to different schools that do teach shop? The whole claims is wrong,
at least here in NJ. The schools district here has vocational schools that
teach trades like auto repair, HVAC, electrical, and yes, carpentry. That's
way more than just shop from 50 years ago. If FL hasn't kept up, maybe
that's because your state is too cheap, doesn't care and prefers low taxes.

They learn trades the old fashioned way, Their dad, uncle, brother
teaches them.
You are talking about a dedicated VoTec, not a regular school.
We have VoTecs but they are not pushed by the school system.

It's not a dedictaed VoTec, it's part of our HS system. The issue was preparing
public school students for trade type jobs. You claimed that HS had
eliminated shop, so students can't learn skill like using a hammer.
I simply pointed out that it's actually gone the opposite way, that HS
students here have courses of study that teach HVAC, auto repair,
electrical trades, etc. School systems shouldn't be pushing anything.
They should and do help students assess their aptitudes, their abilities
and help guide them to career possibilities where they can succeed.

That is unusual if it is true.



If
you don't speak a little Spanish you can't be a job super or a
contractor these days. I was helped being an inspector because I took
a Spanish class and I made the extra effort to expand that "do you
have a telephone" stuff into the terms used in construction.

That's true, but I suspect it has a lot more to do with Americans having
become lazy and unwilling to do hard manual labor. And even those that
will, most have half the productivity of immigrants. I have a friend who
builds golf courses and that has been his experience. You don't need
shop to know how to use a shovel.

Generally speaking based on our experience in construction, Mexicans
were masons and concrete, Guatemalans were manual labor (shovel guys),
Tile guys tended to be South American, Brazil or Colombia.
Cubans were electricians.
That started changing in the last 15 or 20 years and now you see a lot
of Mexican electricians. They really go fast, turning a plodding along
"union" job into an assembly line operation.
I suppose it is just a matter of time before they take over plumbing
and HVAC.
Right now those guys still seem to be old rednecks. There isn't much
acceptance of Latinos, either on the job or in the supply house.
The supply house is a real choke point because they get real picky
about who they will sell to and if you have to go to Home Depot or
other retail places, it is hard to be competitive with your price.
HVAC is the worst. Just go over to the HVAC newsgroup and ask a home
owner question. They will flame you out.

Since I do most of my own repairs, I haven't had a lot of experience with
all of that. But I think your observation about the HVAC guys is probably
right. I had not really thought about it, but from what I recall seeing in
the neighborhood, I don't see what you see with landscapers or roofers.
Same with electricians here.

I suspect the old union guys that dominate your trades are racist.
You don't have much of that in a right to work state. People can do
anything they are capable of without kissing the ring of the local
union boss.


And for half the money.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:59:59 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 9:35:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:00:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 6:23:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:52:51 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 11:50:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 09:56:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I doubt that anybody getting a degree in 4th Century Greek sculpture
could hack it at trade or technical school. Those disciplines require
aptitude.

Now, don't get me started on how useless most young people are because
they've spent their whole lives twiddling cell phone buttons or going to
"maker academy" where nothing has to be kludged together.



Yes, today the young people do not seem to be able to do simple repair
things around the house.
That is only because they never had a chance to be taught. "Shop"
disappeared from middle and high school in the 70s (probably because
educators didn't know which end of a hammer you hold) and we are
seeing the fallout now. Latinos are kicking our ass in the trades.

Funny, do they teach shop in Mexico and Honduras schools? Do Latinos
here go to different schools that do teach shop? The whole claims is wrong,
at least here in NJ. The schools district here has vocational schools that
teach trades like auto repair, HVAC, electrical, and yes, carpentry. That's
way more than just shop from 50 years ago. If FL hasn't kept up, maybe
that's because your state is too cheap, doesn't care and prefers low taxes.

They learn trades the old fashioned way, Their dad, uncle, brother
teaches them.
You are talking about a dedicated VoTec, not a regular school.
We have VoTecs but they are not pushed by the school system.

It's not a dedictaed VoTec, it's part of our HS system. The issue was preparing
public school students for trade type jobs. You claimed that HS had
eliminated shop, so students can't learn skill like using a hammer.
I simply pointed out that it's actually gone the opposite way, that HS
students here have courses of study that teach HVAC, auto repair,
electrical trades, etc. School systems shouldn't be pushing anything.
They should and do help students assess their aptitudes, their abilities
and help guide them to career possibilities where they can succeed.

That is unusual if it is true.



If
you don't speak a little Spanish you can't be a job super or a
contractor these days. I was helped being an inspector because I took
a Spanish class and I made the extra effort to expand that "do you
have a telephone" stuff into the terms used in construction.

That's true, but I suspect it has a lot more to do with Americans having
become lazy and unwilling to do hard manual labor. And even those that
will, most have half the productivity of immigrants. I have a friend who
builds golf courses and that has been his experience. You don't need
shop to know how to use a shovel.

Generally speaking based on our experience in construction, Mexicans
were masons and concrete, Guatemalans were manual labor (shovel guys),
Tile guys tended to be South American, Brazil or Colombia.
Cubans were electricians.
That started changing in the last 15 or 20 years and now you see a lot
of Mexican electricians. They really go fast, turning a plodding along
"union" job into an assembly line operation.
I suppose it is just a matter of time before they take over plumbing
and HVAC.
Right now those guys still seem to be old rednecks. There isn't much
acceptance of Latinos, either on the job or in the supply house.
The supply house is a real choke point because they get real picky
about who they will sell to and if you have to go to Home Depot or
other retail places, it is hard to be competitive with your price.
HVAC is the worst. Just go over to the HVAC newsgroup and ask a home
owner question. They will flame you out.

Since I do most of my own repairs, I haven't had a lot of experience with
all of that. But I think your observation about the HVAC guys is probably
right. I had not really thought about it, but from what I recall seeing in
the neighborhood, I don't see what you see with landscapers or roofers.
Same with electricians here.
I suspect the old union guys that dominate your trades are racist.
You don't have much of that in a right to work state. People can do
anything they are capable of without kissing the ring of the local
union boss.

You're really something. I pretty much agreed with your observation,
but suddenly NJ has racist unions? And there is no requirement to
be a member of a union here to be an HVAC guy, plumber, etc. Most
of the HVAC plumbers/electricians are small, family owned businesses.
And I strongly suspect that in 2021 if any union was excluding people
because of race, they would be in big trouble and under investigation.


You are the one who pointed to the paucity of Latinos in skilled
trades up there. I just threw out an idea.
There are plenty of ways to virtually exclude a group without doing it
overtly. Perhaps Joyce or Bob will expand on that.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:47:57 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 5:12:54 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 18 Feb 2021 22:56:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:



So what? He's the president, but many others in your party, who
he keeps caving in to, want more freebies, using borrowed money.
He just killed 10K+ high paying jobs on the XL pipeline so more
I just love the implicit argument that it's good to do bad things if it
creates jobs.

There is no "bad thing". It's oil for Christ's sake. It's oil that's already
being produced, already being transported across America by rail.
Moving it by pipeline is safer, releases far less CO2 and other pollutants.
It's coming from Canada, our ally. When Trump screwed Canada and
it's people with his trade war BS, woaaah, that was horrific according
to you. But your guy just screwed them, did something even worse,
and here you are defending it. After all, he's a Democrat, so it's OK.





The question should be, Is it a good idea or not?

That's fine BEFORE you give approval and construction is under way.
Now it just showed that the US is like Cuba, where the govt can just
decide to take your investment.



I had a friend in college who thought the Viet Nam war was a good thing
because it was good for the economy. I wasn't capable of judging the
war, but I know that's not a good reason.

Pathetic. It's an oil pipeline, not a war. And this is a good example of how
unreasonable, uncaring and stupid Democrats are too. It would have been
very easy for Biden to leave this alone. To decide not to kill thousands of
good, high paying jobs in the middle of a terrible economy. To decide that
it's wrong to screw investors, to screw Canada. To move toward the middle
with some cooperation, demonstrating that he is reasonable, not a radical.
Showing Republicans and the country that maybe he can bring us together.
Instead he sided with the crazy extremists.

From what I've read and heard, those "thousands of high paying jobs" were
actually about 1000 temporary jobs, none of them coming with high pay.

I wonder if you feel the same way about the wall on the southern border.
That, too, should be completely shut down and jobs will be affected.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 09:08:33 -0800, Bob F wrote:

On 2/20/2021 6:35 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:00:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 6:23:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:52:51 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 11:50:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 09:56:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I doubt that anybody getting a degree in 4th Century Greek sculpture
could hack it at trade or technical school. Those disciplines require
aptitude.

Now, don't get me started on how useless most young people are because
they've spent their whole lives twiddling cell phone buttons or going to
"maker academy" where nothing has to be kludged together.



Yes, today the young people do not seem to be able to do simple repair
things around the house.
That is only because they never had a chance to be taught. "Shop"
disappeared from middle and high school in the 70s (probably because
educators didn't know which end of a hammer you hold) and we are
seeing the fallout now. Latinos are kicking our ass in the trades.

Funny, do they teach shop in Mexico and Honduras schools? Do Latinos
here go to different schools that do teach shop? The whole claims is wrong,
at least here in NJ. The schools district here has vocational schools that
teach trades like auto repair, HVAC, electrical, and yes, carpentry. That's
way more than just shop from 50 years ago. If FL hasn't kept up, maybe
that's because your state is too cheap, doesn't care and prefers low taxes.

They learn trades the old fashioned way, Their dad, uncle, brother
teaches them.
You are talking about a dedicated VoTec, not a regular school.
We have VoTecs but they are not pushed by the school system.

It's not a dedictaed VoTec, it's part of our HS system. The issue was preparing
public school students for trade type jobs. You claimed that HS had
eliminated shop, so students can't learn skill like using a hammer.
I simply pointed out that it's actually gone the opposite way, that HS
students here have courses of study that teach HVAC, auto repair,
electrical trades, etc. School systems shouldn't be pushing anything.
They should and do help students assess their aptitudes, their abilities
and help guide them to career possibilities where they can succeed.

That is unusual if it is true.



If
you don't speak a little Spanish you can't be a job super or a
contractor these days. I was helped being an inspector because I took
a Spanish class and I made the extra effort to expand that "do you
have a telephone" stuff into the terms used in construction.

That's true, but I suspect it has a lot more to do with Americans having
become lazy and unwilling to do hard manual labor. And even those that
will, most have half the productivity of immigrants. I have a friend who
builds golf courses and that has been his experience. You don't need
shop to know how to use a shovel.

Generally speaking based on our experience in construction, Mexicans
were masons and concrete, Guatemalans were manual labor (shovel guys),
Tile guys tended to be South American, Brazil or Colombia.
Cubans were electricians.
That started changing in the last 15 or 20 years and now you see a lot
of Mexican electricians. They really go fast, turning a plodding along
"union" job into an assembly line operation.
I suppose it is just a matter of time before they take over plumbing
and HVAC.
Right now those guys still seem to be old rednecks. There isn't much
acceptance of Latinos, either on the job or in the supply house.
The supply house is a real choke point because they get real picky
about who they will sell to and if you have to go to Home Depot or
other retail places, it is hard to be competitive with your price.
HVAC is the worst. Just go over to the HVAC newsgroup and ask a home
owner question. They will flame you out.

Since I do most of my own repairs, I haven't had a lot of experience with
all of that. But I think your observation about the HVAC guys is probably
right. I had not really thought about it, but from what I recall seeing in
the neighborhood, I don't see what you see with landscapers or roofers.
Same with electricians here.

I suspect the old union guys that dominate your trades are racist.
You don't have much of that in a right to work state. People can do
anything they are capable of without kissing the ring of the local
union boss.


And for half the money.

It also costs a lot less to live here. That sort of works out. Housing
is a big chunk of that.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 11:48:51 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:47:57 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 5:12:54 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 18 Feb 2021 22:56:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:



So what? He's the president, but many others in your party, who
he keeps caving in to, want more freebies, using borrowed money.
He just killed 10K+ high paying jobs on the XL pipeline so more
I just love the implicit argument that it's good to do bad things if it
creates jobs.

There is no "bad thing". It's oil for Christ's sake. It's oil that's already
being produced, already being transported across America by rail.
Moving it by pipeline is safer, releases far less CO2 and other pollutants.
It's coming from Canada, our ally. When Trump screwed Canada and
it's people with his trade war BS, woaaah, that was horrific according
to you. But your guy just screwed them, did something even worse,
and here you are defending it. After all, he's a Democrat, so it's OK.





The question should be, Is it a good idea or not?

That's fine BEFORE you give approval and construction is under way.
Now it just showed that the US is like Cuba, where the govt can just
decide to take your investment.



I had a friend in college who thought the Viet Nam war was a good thing
because it was good for the economy. I wasn't capable of judging the
war, but I know that's not a good reason.

Pathetic. It's an oil pipeline, not a war. And this is a good example of how
unreasonable, uncaring and stupid Democrats are too. It would have been
very easy for Biden to leave this alone. To decide not to kill thousands of
good, high paying jobs in the middle of a terrible economy. To decide that
it's wrong to screw investors, to screw Canada. To move toward the middle
with some cooperation, demonstrating that he is reasonable, not a radical.
Showing Republicans and the country that maybe he can bring us together.
Instead he sided with the crazy extremists.

From what I've read and heard, those "thousands of high paying jobs" were
actually about 1000 temporary jobs, none of them coming with high pay.

I wonder if you feel the same way about the wall on the southern border.
That, too, should be completely shut down and jobs will be affected.

OK, let's just look at it from the environmental aspect

KEYSTONE PIPELINE vs TRAIN vs SHIP TO MOVE OIL
These numbers were Fact-Checked with Google:
1 Train has 100 cars, 2 engines and weighs 27,240,000 LBS.
1 Train carries 3,000,000 gallons of oil.
1 train uses 55.5 gallons of diesel per mile.
It takes 119,000 gallons of diesel to go 2150 miles from Hardidsy, AB
to
Freeport, TX.
Keystone pipeline was to deliver 34,860,000 gallons of oil per day.
It would take 12 trains and 1,428,000 gallons of diesel to deliver
that amount.
PER DAY!
521,220,000 gallons of diesel per year.
The oil will still go to market with or without the pipeline. By
stopping the
pipeline billions of gallons of diesel will be wasted and pollute
needlessly.
Stop the Tar Sands all together? Then we must ship the oil from the
overseas
sandbox.
1 large oil tanker can haul 120,000,000 gallons of oil
1 boat takes 15 days to cross the Atlantic.
1 boat uses 63,000 gallons of fuel PER DAY, that is about 1 million
gallons of
the most polluting type fuel in the world PER TRIP.*(See below)
Or take 3.5 days of Keystone Pipeline to move the same amount of oil
with a
fraction of the pollution.
*In international waters ship emissions remains one of the least
regulated parts
of our global transportation system. The fuel used in ships is waste
oil,
basically what is left over after the crude oil refining process. It
is the same
as asphalt and is so thick that when cold it can be walked upon . It's
the
cheapest and most polluting fuel available and the world's 90,000
ships chew
through an astonishing 7.29 million barrels of it each day, or more
than 84% of
all exported oil production from Saudi Arabia.


I'm sure you stopped reading by now.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 20 Feb 2021 11:48:51 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:47:57 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 5:12:54 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 18 Feb 2021 22:56:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:



So what? He's the president, but many others in your party, who
he keeps caving in to, want more freebies, using borrowed money.
He just killed 10K+ high paying jobs on the XL pipeline so more
I just love the implicit argument that it's good to do bad things if it
creates jobs.

There is no "bad thing". It's oil for Christ's sake. It's oil that's already
being produced, already being transported across America by rail.
Moving it by pipeline is safer, releases far less CO2 and other pollutants.
It's coming from Canada, our ally. When Trump screwed Canada and
it's people with his trade war BS, woaaah, that was horrific according
to you. But your guy just screwed them, did something even worse,
and here you are defending it. After all, he's a Democrat, so it's OK.





The question should be, Is it a good idea or not?

That's fine BEFORE you give approval and construction is under way.
Now it just showed that the US is like Cuba, where the govt can just
decide to take your investment.



I had a friend in college who thought the Viet Nam war was a good thing
because it was good for the economy. I wasn't capable of judging the
war, but I know that's not a good reason.

Pathetic. It's an oil pipeline, not a war.

Duh. If a fool will support a whole war based on jobs, then how much
easier is it to support an arguably mistaken pipeline because of jobs.

You really will grasp an any straw you can find.

And this is a good example of how
unreasonable, uncaring and stupid Democrats are too. It would have been

You're going to blame Democrats for what I said.

And worse yet, nothing you said takes issue with what I said. The whole
rest of your post is about jobs, and not a word about whether the
pipeline is a good idea or not.

very easy for Biden to leave this alone. To decide not to kill thousands of
good, high paying jobs in the middle of a terrible economy. To decide that
it's wrong to screw investors, to screw Canada. To move toward the middle

They are all big boys. The investors knew there was risk when they
started and they and Canada could tell from the lawsuits that it wasn't
for sure.

with some cooperation, demonstrating that he is reasonable, not a radical.

Biden is not a radical. You ought to know that by now.

Showing Republicans and the country that maybe he can bring us together.
Instead he sided with the crazy extremists.

From what I've read and heard, those "thousands of high paying jobs" were
actually about 1000 temporary jobs, none of them coming with high pay.

I wonder if you feel the same way about the wall on the southern border.
That, too, should be completely shut down and jobs will be affected.

They should keep building the Mexico wall for sure, because of the jobs
it creates, and if the Mexico wall is not wanted, they should find some
place, say in Kansas, to build a big wall. You don't want to separate
east Kansas from west Kansas so you could have openings wherever there
was a road or sidewalk or stream or path, but the important thing is to
hire people for jobs.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:08:01 -0800 (PST), trader_4 posted for all of us to
digest...

Funny how a whole generation grew up during the Great Depression and
became successful. And that included blacks and other minorities.
Then for 50 years we poured trillions into welfare programs that paid people
to have more kids and to not have a father around. Imagine if that money
had been left with the taxpayers, how many jobs it would have created,
the improved economy that would have benefited everyone. But Democrats
never learn, idiots like Ying Yang want to just give everyone $12K a year.


Redistribution of wealth. If someone gets $12K a year where does it come from
(assuming the gov't press' aren't involved) the taxpayers. The taxpayers have
less money so they spend less, inflation starts, growth stops. So if you are
making $48K a year your income just got cut by 1/4. Look at the Carter years,
do you want to repeat them? I don't.

--
Tekkie

On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:50:48 -0600, Jim Joyce posted for all of us to digest...


Reading isn't always about quantity. Quality is at least as important, if
not more so. Maybe the second half of that should get some additional
attention.


You always divert your point to another direction.

--
Tekkie

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 15:05:16 -0500, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 20 Feb 2021 11:48:51 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:47:57 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 5:12:54 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 18 Feb 2021 22:56:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:



So what? He's the president, but many others in your party, who
he keeps caving in to, want more freebies, using borrowed money.
He just killed 10K+ high paying jobs on the XL pipeline so more
I just love the implicit argument that it's good to do bad things if it
creates jobs.

There is no "bad thing". It's oil for Christ's sake. It's oil that's already
being produced, already being transported across America by rail.
Moving it by pipeline is safer, releases far less CO2 and other pollutants.
It's coming from Canada, our ally. When Trump screwed Canada and
it's people with his trade war BS, woaaah, that was horrific according
to you. But your guy just screwed them, did something even worse,
and here you are defending it. After all, he's a Democrat, so it's OK.





The question should be, Is it a good idea or not?

That's fine BEFORE you give approval and construction is under way.
Now it just showed that the US is like Cuba, where the govt can just
decide to take your investment.



I had a friend in college who thought the Viet Nam war was a good thing
because it was good for the economy. I wasn't capable of judging the
war, but I know that's not a good reason.

Pathetic. It's an oil pipeline, not a war.

Duh. If a fool will support a whole war based on jobs, then how much
easier is it to support an arguably mistaken pipeline because of jobs.

You really will grasp an any straw you can find.

And this is a good example of how
unreasonable, uncaring and stupid Democrats are too. It would have been

You're going to blame Democrats for what I said.

And worse yet, nothing you said takes issue with what I said. The whole
rest of your post is about jobs, and not a word about whether the
pipeline is a good idea or not.

very easy for Biden to leave this alone. To decide not to kill thousands of
good, high paying jobs in the middle of a terrible economy. To decide that
it's wrong to screw investors, to screw Canada. To move toward the middle

They are all big boys. The investors knew there was risk when they
started and they and Canada could tell from the lawsuits that it wasn't
for sure.

with some cooperation, demonstrating that he is reasonable, not a radical.

Biden is not a radical. You ought to know that by now.

Showing Republicans and the country that maybe he can bring us together.
Instead he sided with the crazy extremists.

From what I've read and heard, those "thousands of high paying jobs" were
actually about 1000 temporary jobs, none of them coming with high pay.

I wonder if you feel the same way about the wall on the southern border.
That, too, should be completely shut down and jobs will be affected.

They should keep building the Mexico wall for sure, because of the jobs
it creates, and if the Mexico wall is not wanted, they should find some
place, say in Kansas, to build a big wall. You don't want to separate
east Kansas from west Kansas so you could have openings wherever there
was a road or sidewalk or stream or path, but the important thing is to
hire people for jobs.

Trump said he wanted to build a wall on the southern border of Colorado.
That might be a lot easier than trying to build it along the Mexican
border. Hey, maybe every state should have a wall along each of its
borders. That would keep the construction jobs going for a while.

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 7:02:29 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

Trump said he wanted to build a wall on the southern border of Colorado.
That might be a lot easier than trying to build it along the Mexican
border. Hey, maybe every state should have a wall along each of its
borders. That would keep the construction jobs going for a while.

Good idea. I'd be a breeze in Michigan. Two relatively short walls
and we can keep out both the Ohioans and Wisconsinites.

Cindy Hamilton

On Sun, 21 Feb 2021 02:40:41 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 7:02:29 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

Trump said he wanted to build a wall on the southern border of Colorado.
That might be a lot easier than trying to build it along the Mexican
border. Hey, maybe every state should have a wall along each of its
borders. That would keep the construction jobs going for a while.

Good idea. I'd be a breeze in Michigan. Two relatively short walls
and we can keep out both the Ohioans and Wisconsinites.

Cindy Hamilton

You still have Indiana and don't forget the boat people. There are
several thousand miles of coastline. The main part of the state is
surrounded on 3 sides by water bisecting you from the U.P.
Maybe you would be more defensible if you let Wisconsin have the U.P.

On 2/21/2021 9:07 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2021 02:40:41 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 7:02:29 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

Trump said he wanted to build a wall on the southern border of Colorado.
That might be a lot easier than trying to build it along the Mexican
border. Hey, maybe every state should have a wall along each of its
borders. That would keep the construction jobs going for a while.

Good idea. I'd be a breeze in Michigan. Two relatively short walls
and we can keep out both the Ohioans and Wisconsinites.

Cindy Hamilton

You still have Indiana and don't forget the boat people. There are
several thousand miles of coastline. The main part of the state is
surrounded on 3 sides by water bisecting you from the U.P.
Maybe you would be more defensible if you let Wisconsin have the U.P.



A couple of fast gun boats should take care of that. Snowmobile patrols
once it freezes. Would keep the Canadians out too.

On Sunday, February 21, 2021 at 9:07:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2021 02:40:41 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 7:02:29 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

Trump said he wanted to build a wall on the southern border of Colorado.
That might be a lot easier than trying to build it along the Mexican
border. Hey, maybe every state should have a wall along each of its
borders. That would keep the construction jobs going for a while.

Good idea. I'd be a breeze in Michigan. Two relatively short walls
and we can keep out both the Ohioans and Wisconsinites.

Cindy Hamilton
You still have Indiana and don't forget the boat people. There are
several thousand miles of coastline. The main part of the state is
surrounded on 3 sides by water bisecting you from the U.P.
Maybe you would be more defensible if you let Wisconsin have the U.P.


I'd be happy to reverse the outcome of the Toledo War, now that the mines
of the U.P. are no longer an economic powerhouse.

Cindy Hamilton

On 02/21/2021 03:40 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 7:02:29 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

Trump said he wanted to build a wall on the southern border of Colorado.
That might be a lot easier than trying to build it along the Mexican
border. Hey, maybe every state should have a wall along each of its
borders. That would keep the construction jobs going for a while.

Good idea. I'd be a breeze in Michigan. Two relatively short walls
and we can keep out both the Ohioans and Wisconsinites.

I doubt Indiana will invade. When I was working there the dialog went

Q. Why isn't Indiana flooded.
A. Michigan sucks more.


We have natural walls. A few machine gun emplacements on the passes
would keep the trash out. There are some good choke points on the road
that follows the Clark Fork if blowing the bridges doesn't do the trick..

On 02/21/2021 08:21 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, February 21, 2021 at 9:07:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2021 02:40:41 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 7:02:29 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

Trump said he wanted to build a wall on the southern border of Colorado.
That might be a lot easier than trying to build it along the Mexican
border. Hey, maybe every state should have a wall along each of its
borders. That would keep the construction jobs going for a while.

Good idea. I'd be a breeze in Michigan. Two relatively short walls
and we can keep out both the Ohioans and Wisconsinites.

Cindy Hamilton
You still have Indiana and don't forget the boat people. There are
several thousand miles of coastline. The main part of the state is
surrounded on 3 sides by water bisecting you from the U.P.
Maybe you would be more defensible if you let Wisconsin have the U.P.


I'd be happy to reverse the outcome of the Toledo War, now that the mines
of the U.P. are no longer an economic powerhouse.

You would miss Iron Mountain...

On Sunday, February 21, 2021 at 12:47:49 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 02/21/2021 08:21 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, February 21, 2021 at 9:07:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2021 02:40:41 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 7:02:29 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:

Trump said he wanted to build a wall on the southern border of Colorado.
That might be a lot easier than trying to build it along the Mexican
border. Hey, maybe every state should have a wall along each of its
borders. That would keep the construction jobs going for a while.

Good idea. I'd be a breeze in Michigan. Two relatively short walls
and we can keep out both the Ohioans and Wisconsinites.

Cindy Hamilton
You still have Indiana and don't forget the boat people. There are
several thousand miles of coastline. The main part of the state is
surrounded on 3 sides by water bisecting you from the U.P.
Maybe you would be more defensible if you let Wisconsin have the U.P.


I'd be happy to reverse the outcome of the Toledo War, now that the mines
of the U.P. are no longer an economic powerhouse.
You would miss Iron Mountain...

Would I? I see it has a bocce ball tournament. Pity I don't play.

Cindy Hamilton

On Sun, 21 Feb 2021 10:43:16 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

FLUSH sick senile gossip