Jut got an email from my power company, Florida Power and Light,
announcing my bill will be going down. This is part of their story:

Over the last decade, weve retired coal-powered plants and modernized
many of our older oil-burning power plants with new natural gas-fired
plants. And, were not stopping there!

Weve built the Okeechobee Clean Energy Center to help meet the energy
needs of Floridas growing population and expanding economy. This new
energy center is one of the cleanest, most efficient facilities of its
kind in the world.

Plans are also underway to modernize the existing Lauderdale Plant
located in Broward County with a new state-of-the-art natural gas power
plant. When completed, this new facility, the FPL Dania Beach Clean
Energy Center, will run on clean, U.S.-produced natural gas and generate
enough energy to power approximately 250,000 homes.

Using domestic natural gas instead of foreign oil to generate power is
saving FPL customers billions of dollars on fuel. In fact, since 2001
customers have saved nearly $10 billion on fuel through FPLs efficient
natural gas power plants. By bringing online additional efficient,
cleaner power plants in the next few years, customers will continue to
save money on fuel costs

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 12:39:54 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Jut got an email from my power company, Florida Power and Light,
announcing my bill will be going down. This is part of their story:

Over the last decade, weve retired coal-powered plants and modernized
many of our older oil-burning power plants with new natural gas-fired
plants. And, were not stopping there!

Weve built the Okeechobee Clean Energy Center to help meet the energy
needs of Floridas growing population and expanding economy. This new
energy center is one of the cleanest, most efficient facilities of its
kind in the world.

Plans are also underway to modernize the existing Lauderdale Plant
located in Broward County with a new state-of-the-art natural gas power
plant. When completed, this new facility, the FPL Dania Beach Clean
Energy Center, will run on clean, U.S.-produced natural gas and generate
enough energy to power approximately 250,000 homes.

Using domestic natural gas instead of foreign oil to generate power is
saving FPL customers billions of dollars on fuel. In fact, since 2001
customers have saved nearly $10 billion on fuel through FPLs efficient
natural gas power plants. By bringing online additional efficient,
cleaner power plants in the next few years, customers will continue to
save money on fuel costs


I have been pretty happy with FPL and I can't complain about my bills.
The Ft Myers plant went off bunker oil over 2 decades ago. The only
bad news is they have to artificially heat the discharge water for the
manatees because the gas plant is so efficient the water isn't warm
enough for them in the winter.
I guess the manatee lovers are hoping for more global warming to
expand their range.

On 1/20/2020 12:55 PM, wrote:



I have been pretty happy with FPL and I can't complain about my bills.
The Ft Myers plant went off bunker oil over 2 decades ago. The only
bad news is they have to artificially heat the discharge water for the
manatees because the gas plant is so efficient the water isn't warm
enough for them in the winter.
I guess the manatee lovers are hoping for more global warming to
expand their range.


I'm very happy with them. When I lived in CT the rates were effectively
..21 kWhr. Here for the year I used more electricity but paid $900 less.

On 1/20/2020 1:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/20/2020 12:55 PM, wrote:



I have been pretty happy with FPL and I can't complain about my bills.
The Ft Myers plant went off bunker oil over 2 decades ago. The only
bad news is they have to artificially heat the discharge water for the
manatees because the gas plant is so efficient the water isn't warm
enough for them in the winter.
I guess the manatee lovers are hoping for more global warming to
expand their range.


I'm very happy with them.Â* When I lived in CT the rates were effectively
.21 kWhr.Â* Here for the year I used more electricity but paid $900 less.

You guys are lucky. Ours keeps going up. DE got flim flammed by Bloom
Engineering to have them build and use fuel cells using natural gas fuel
and of course cost of power went up and jobs did not materialize. Using
natural gas as a turbine fuel is cheaper and more efficient. State also
got flim flammed into pumping money into offshore windmills that never
got built.

On 1/20/2020 2:00 PM, Frank wrote:
On 1/20/2020 1:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/20/2020 12:55 PM, wrote:



I have been pretty happy with FPL and I can't complain about my bills.
The Ft Myers plant went off bunker oil over 2 decades ago. The only
bad news is they have to artificially heat the discharge water for the
manatees because the gas plant is so efficient the water isn't warm
enough for them in the winter.
I guess the manatee lovers are hoping for more global warming to
expand their range.


I'm very happy with them.Â* When I lived in CT the rates were
effectively .21 kWhr.Â* Here for the year I used more electricity but
paid $900 less.

You guys are lucky.Â* Ours keeps going up.Â* DE got flim flammed by Bloom
Engineering to have them build and use fuel cells using natural gas fuel
and of course cost of power went up and jobs did not materialize.Â* Using
natural gas as a turbine fuel is cheaper and more efficient.Â* State also
got flim flammed into pumping money into offshore windmills that never
got built.

In CT and MA they allowed you to choose your electric supplier (for
generation) and competition would save you a lot of money. Sounds good,
freedom of choice!

First year I saved about $60, second year $30, by fourth year is was
more expensive and if you were not careful, very expensive. Middlemen
made a bunch of money though.

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 14:49:09 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/20/2020 2:00 PM, Frank wrote:
On 1/20/2020 1:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/20/2020 12:55 PM, wrote:



I have been pretty happy with FPL and I can't complain about my bills.
The Ft Myers plant went off bunker oil over 2 decades ago. The only
bad news is they have to artificially heat the discharge water for the
manatees because the gas plant is so efficient the water isn't warm
enough for them in the winter.
I guess the manatee lovers are hoping for more global warming to
expand their range.


I'm very happy with them.* When I lived in CT the rates were
effectively .21 kWhr.* Here for the year I used more electricity but
paid $900 less.

You guys are lucky.* Ours keeps going up.* DE got flim flammed by Bloom
Engineering to have them build and use fuel cells using natural gas fuel
and of course cost of power went up and jobs did not materialize.* Using
natural gas as a turbine fuel is cheaper and more efficient.* State also
got flim flammed into pumping money into offshore windmills that never
got built.

In CT and MA they allowed you to choose your electric supplier (for
generation) and competition would save you a lot of money. Sounds good,
freedom of choice!

First year I saved about $60, second year $30, by fourth year is was
more expensive and if you were not careful, very expensive. Middlemen
made a bunch of money though.
Same with deregulation up here in Ontario. Sure, you can BUY your
rlectricity and natural gas from anyone you choose - and have it
delivered on OPG lines through, in my case, Waterloo North Hydro
distribution system for elrctricity and Embridge (formerly union gas)
for gas. Always on a "fixed price" contract which for at least the
last 20 years has NEVER been cheaper over the long term than spot
price through the primary supplier.

Someone's making a tidy profit.
Kitchener utilities was hedging their bets, buying contracts on gas -
and Kitchener residents payed significantly more than Waterloo, where
we bought directly from Union Gas (now Embridge)

Same with deregulation up here in Ontario. Sure, you can BUY your
rlectricity and natural gas from anyone you choose - and have it
delivered on OPG lines through, in my case, Waterloo North Hydro
distribution system for elrctricity and Embridge (formerly union gas)
for gas. Always on a "fixed price" contract which for at least the
last 20 years has NEVER been cheaper over the long term than spot
price through the primary supplier.
Someone's making a tidy profit.
Kitchener utilities was hedging their bets, buying contracts on gas -
and Kitchener residents payed significantly more than Waterloo, where
we bought directly from Union Gas (now Embridge)


Clare - I'll happily buy you a Schmidtsville breakfast -
if that's what it takes to set you straight on this ! :-)
I can't speak for gas - but for electricity - it isn't the
energy price - it's the delivery price - that is the problem ..
... OPG does not retail or deliver electricity -
HydroOne delivers electricity... wholesale and retail ..
... and they are no longer included in the SunShine List -
... duh .
Ontario - Quebec - Manitoba - public power systems -
... Provencial Public Utilities - along with TVA .
we were historically the very best in North America .
... now look at us.
I think Manitoba and Quebec are OK ...
John T.

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:23:12 -0500, wrote:



Same with deregulation up here in Ontario. Sure, you can BUY your
rlectricity and natural gas from anyone you choose - and have it
delivered on OPG lines through, in my case, Waterloo North Hydro
distribution system for elrctricity and Embridge (formerly union gas)
for gas. Always on a "fixed price" contract which for at least the
last 20 years has NEVER been cheaper over the long term than spot
price through the primary supplier.
Someone's making a tidy profit.
Kitchener utilities was hedging their bets, buying contracts on gas -
and Kitchener residents payed significantly more than Waterloo, where
we bought directly from Union Gas (now Embridge)


Clare - I'll happily buy you a Schmidtsville breakfast -
if that's what it takes to set you straight on this ! :-)
I can't speak for gas - but for electricity - it isn't the
energy price - it's the delivery price - that is the problem ..
.. OPG does not retail or deliver electricity -
HydroOne delivers electricity... wholesale and retail ..
.. and they are no longer included in the SunShine List -
... duh .
Ontario - Quebec - Manitoba - public power systems -
.. Provencial Public Utilities - along with TVA .
we were historically the very best in North America .
... now look at us.
I think Manitoba and Quebec are OK ...
John T.
You will agree that "deregulation" was a terrible boondoggle?
Yes, I mixed up OPG and Hydro One. Back when it was Ontario Hydro it
was top-heavy, but when they split it to OPG and Hydro One there were
TWO top-heavy overpriced bureaucracies instead of one.

The delivery price is the same regardless who you buy the power from
- or through - but it IS a significant portion of the total bill.

Might take you up on the schmidtsville breakfast for a jawfest
sometime though - - - dutch.

On 01/20/2020 10:55 AM, wrote:
I have been pretty happy with FPL and I can't complain about my bills.
The Ft Myers plant went off bunker oil over 2 decades ago. The only
bad news is they have to artificially heat the discharge water for the
manatees because the gas plant is so efficient the water isn't warm
enough for them in the winter.

The Seabrook nuke was controversial and one of the point of discussion
was the discharge of cooling water a mile offshore. PSNH said the
lobsters would love it. Maybe they were on to something.

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:04:57 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:23:12 -0500, wrote:



Same with deregulation up here in Ontario. Sure, you can BUY your
rlectricity and natural gas from anyone you choose - and have it
delivered on OPG lines through, in my case, Waterloo North Hydro
distribution system for elrctricity and Embridge (formerly union gas)
for gas. Always on a "fixed price" contract which for at least the
last 20 years has NEVER been cheaper over the long term than spot
price through the primary supplier.
Someone's making a tidy profit.
Kitchener utilities was hedging their bets, buying contracts on gas -
and Kitchener residents payed significantly more than Waterloo, where
we bought directly from Union Gas (now Embridge)


Clare - I'll happily buy you a Schmidtsville breakfast -
if that's what it takes to set you straight on this ! :-)
I can't speak for gas - but for electricity - it isn't the
energy price - it's the delivery price - that is the problem ..
.. OPG does not retail or deliver electricity -
HydroOne delivers electricity... wholesale and retail ..
.. and they are no longer included in the SunShine List -
... duh .
Ontario - Quebec - Manitoba - public power systems -
.. Provencial Public Utilities - along with TVA .
we were historically the very best in North America .
... now look at us.
I think Manitoba and Quebec are OK ...
John T.
You will agree that "deregulation" was a terrible boondoggle?
Yes, I mixed up OPG and Hydro One. Back when it was Ontario Hydro it
was top-heavy, but when they split it to OPG and Hydro One there were
TWO top-heavy overpriced bureaucracies instead of one.

The delivery price is the same regardless who you buy the power from
- or through - but it IS a significant portion of the total bill.

Might take you up on the schmidtsville breakfast for a jawfest
sometime though - - - dutch.


If you call Ontario Hydro top heavy -

- Maurice Strong in the 1980's was called to task
for his salary - he voluntarily reduced it to $ 1.
... from $ 400,000, .. that's for the whole Province.
... after "privatisation" and sell-offs -
the several ensuing companies jacked-up salaries ~ many fold.
and $ 400. k became a mid-management
pay scale - for the several split-companies -
.... with no over sight or SunShine List.
Check out Ontario power & delivery rates
compared to Quebec & Manitoba ..
A few years ago - my daughter, in Quebec,
installed an electric furnace !
.. not too many sold in Ontario lately.
John T.

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 19:51:42 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

On 01/20/2020 10:55 AM, wrote:
I have been pretty happy with FPL and I can't complain about my bills.
The Ft Myers plant went off bunker oil over 2 decades ago. The only
bad news is they have to artificially heat the discharge water for the
manatees because the gas plant is so efficient the water isn't warm
enough for them in the winter.

The Seabrook nuke was controversial and one of the point of discussion
was the discharge of cooling water a mile offshore. PSNH said the
lobsters would love it. Maybe they were on to something.

The endangered species act has gone off the rails down here in South
Florida. The manatees are thriving but they have outgrown their
habitat, same with the "Florida Panther", basically the same Cougars
they have in Texas and the Mountain Lions you have out there. In fact
they brought a bunch of Texas Cougars here to pump up the DNA pool but
that just demonstrated there isn't any such thing as a Florida
Panther. It is just a few Georgia Cougars that got cut off when we
developed central Florida. Now we have hundreds and nowhere near
enough wild country to support the population so they are moving into
urban areas where they get hit by cars.
"Oh no, we are killing endangered species". They aren't endangered and
the population is thriving, within the limits of the available
environment.
I would say the same thing about the Manatee. The population we have
needs to be near the power plant all winter or they will die of cold
stress. (water temps 68-69 degrees).
The problem is the power plant here is on the Okeechobee water way,
the main east west route across Florida and prime time for boat
traffic is the winter, when the manatee are there. Guess what?
Manatees are getting hit.
It is like putting a salt lick in the median of I-75 and wondering why
the deer are getting hit by cars.
They are also starving because there are so many they have eaten every
blade of grass in the river within swimming distance until the cold
water gets them. Populations are at record high levels and they still
say boats are the real danger. The real danger is they have more
manatee than the environment can support.

On 01/20/2020 08:18 PM, wrote:
I would say the same thing about the Manatee. The population we have
needs to be near the power plant all winter or they will die of cold
stress. (water temps 68-69 degrees).

What did they do before the power plants? Head south for the winter?

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 23:17:57 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

On 01/20/2020 08:18 PM, wrote:
I would say the same thing about the Manatee. The population we have
needs to be near the power plant all winter or they will die of cold
stress. (water temps 68-69 degrees).

What did they do before the power plants? Head south for the winter?

They went south or they died and created the fossils that prove they
died here. We don't really have a clue how many we are really talking
about tho. It is enough to get people to say they are "native". I am
sure we have a historically high number of them now. There is also
lots of evidence that there were quite a number that were brought here
in the 20th century to eat water hyacinth

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 12:39:58 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Jut got an email from my power company, Florida Power and Light,
announcing my bill will be going down. This is part of their story:

Over the last decade, weve retired coal-powered plants and modernized
many of our older oil-burning power plants with new natural gas-fired
plants. And, were not stopping there!

Weve built the Okeechobee Clean Energy Center to help meet the energy
needs of Floridas growing population and expanding economy. This new
energy center is one of the cleanest, most efficient facilities of its
kind in the world.

Plans are also underway to modernize the existing Lauderdale Plant
located in Broward County with a new state-of-the-art natural gas power
plant. When completed, this new facility, the FPL Dania Beach Clean
Energy Center, will run on clean, U.S.-produced natural gas and generate
enough energy to power approximately 250,000 homes.

Using domestic natural gas instead of foreign oil to generate power is
saving FPL customers billions of dollars on fuel. In fact, since 2001
customers have saved nearly $10 billion on fuel through FPLs efficient
natural gas power plants. By bringing online additional efficient,
cleaner power plants in the next few years, customers will continue to
save money on fuel costs

No, no, no. That is all wrong. They should be burning more coal. Clean,
beautiful coal. Dear Leader says so, he knows best, he's a very stable
genius.

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 06:48:49 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 12:39:58 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Jut got an email from my power company, Florida Power and Light,
announcing my bill will be going down. This is part of their story:

Over the last decade, weve retired coal-powered plants and modernized
many of our older oil-burning power plants with new natural gas-fired
plants. And, were not stopping there!

Weve built the Okeechobee Clean Energy Center to help meet the energy
needs of Floridas growing population and expanding economy. This new
energy center is one of the cleanest, most efficient facilities of its
kind in the world.

Plans are also underway to modernize the existing Lauderdale Plant
located in Broward County with a new state-of-the-art natural gas power
plant. When completed, this new facility, the FPL Dania Beach Clean
Energy Center, will run on clean, U.S.-produced natural gas and generate
enough energy to power approximately 250,000 homes.

Using domestic natural gas instead of foreign oil to generate power is
saving FPL customers billions of dollars on fuel. In fact, since 2001
customers have saved nearly $10 billion on fuel through FPLs efficient
natural gas power plants. By bringing online additional efficient,
cleaner power plants in the next few years, customers will continue to
save money on fuel costs

No, no, no. That is all wrong. They should be burning more coal. Clean,
beautiful coal. Dear Leader says so, he knows best, he's a very stable
genius.


Have you ever heard me agree with him on coal? That old knee of yours
is still jerking.

He is just channeling that idiot Jimmy Carter who bragged about coal
saving us all the time after he and Nixon screwed up our middle east
policy to the point that we were sitting in gas lines and people were
worried that the couldn't heat their homes.

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 22:00:03 -0500, wrote:

A few years ago - my daughter, in Quebec,
installed an electric furnace !
.. not too many sold in Ontario lately.
John T.
Jihn, there are several reasons for this discrepancy besides the
lower cost of Hydro in Quebec.
First of all,Natural Gas is not available to the majority of quebec
residents outside major centers, and outside the eastern townships.
Natural gas is the lowest cost heating option throughout virtually all
of Canada where it is available.
Second - While natural gas is 30% cheaper than electricity in Quebec,
it is HALF the price of heating oil - the old standby - making
electricity roughly 20% less than oil (I didn't do the calculation -
so that's why Isaid roughly -)

From Embridge Quebec:
The following is an example of the cost comparison calculation for a
year’s use of oil and natural gas, taking into consideration the fuel
efficiency of your 15 or more year-old furnace and a new natural gas
furnace one:

Calculation of the annual cost of heating with oil:
2,000 litres of oil consumed x $0.91** = $1,820 (your annual oil bill)

Comparing the cost of heating with oil and with natural gas, taking
into consideration the furnace’s fuel efficiency:
2,000 l of oil x 70% efficiency = 1,400 l used for heating
1,400 l x 1.03 m3 = 1,442 m3 of natural gas required to heat for a
year
1,442 m3 x $0.520/m3*** = $750 (estimated annual cost of heating with
natural gas)

Annual saving from using natural gas as your energy source: $1,070


Third - The third option is Propane.About 85 per cent of the propane
used in Quebec is shipped by rail from Sarnia, Ont. - making it more
expensive than in Ontario - and then it needs to be trucked from
Montreal or whatever rail head it is offloaded at. In many areas of
quebec that trucking expense is far from trivial, and during hard
winters the trucks have difficulty getting to many areas when needed.
The price of propane fluctuates severely with supply in any given
region.

Even in Ontario, propane prices have been very volatile over the last
number of years, affected by rail strikes, bad weather, and other
issues.

1 l of oil = 10.8 kWh of electricity = 1.03 m3 of natural gas = 1.53 l
of propane gas.

If propane, oil and natural gas cost the same - 1 liter of Propane or
oil to 1 cubic meter of natural gas, propane would still cost 50% more
because of it's lower heat value.

All this makes electric heat more attractive to many users in Quebec
compared to Ontario. Of course, with quebec electricity costs running
at about HALF of Ontario prices - just over half of Vancouver or
Miami -and one quarter of New York - it doesn't hurt either!!!!!!
Plug 7 cents a Kw H into the therm equasion vs 14 cents - - - -

On 1/21/20 9:48 AM, trader_4 wrote:


No, no, no. That is all wrong. They should be burning more coal. Clean,
beautiful coal. Dear Leader says so, he knows best, he's a very stable
genius.


But the leftards want to ban fracking.
I guess we'll need to fire up the coal plants on those cold nights when America's solar panels are sleeping.

On 1/21/2020 1:17 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/20/2020 08:18 PM, wrote:
I would say the same thing about the Manatee. The population we have
needs to be near the power plant all winter or they will die of cold
stress. (water temps 68-69 degrees).

What did they do before the power plants? Head south for the winter?

They still do that now.

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:36:35 -0500, Frank "frank wrote:

On 1/21/2020 1:17 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/20/2020 08:18 PM, wrote:
I would say the same thing about the Manatee. The population we have
needs to be near the power plant all winter or they will die of cold
stress. (water temps 68-69 degrees).

What did they do before the power plants? Head south for the winter?

They still do that now.

Not really, they just head up to the power plant.
Manatee are 15-20 generations away from remembering about migration
south, if they ever knew in the first place. It is clear now that they
are not leaving the bays and moving up to the power plants until the
last minute and that is far too late to actually get far enough south
to find warm water.
Most of the natural springs in south Florida that used to give them
some relief have dried up from overuse of water by the millions of new
residents.