writes:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 16:20:50 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

I didn't see your idea posted. Did I happen to miss it?

Mine was "bury it". I bet out in the boonies like that he has a
machine or knows someone who does. Use the bucket to compress it as
much as you can and bury it. Environmentally, you are "sequestering
carbon". That is supposed to be a good thing.
[snip]
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Without the exposure to the sun and elements, it will decompose very
slowly and the release of toxins will be far below the ability of the
earth to assimilate them. I opened up a wall with rigid foam
insulation planks recently that has been here for a half a century and
it looks and feels brand new.

Ah, but the topic was burying the foam randomly where it
is exposed to water, microbes and chemicals in the soil;
not using it as a building material
(which is a form of sequestration for the life of the building).

OTOH I pick up foam in the river that
hasn't been in the weather more than a year that is badly decomposed.

On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 00:49:17 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:04:13 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 11:51:35 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/15/2020 11:14 AM, Larry wrote:
On 1/15/20 10:02 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Break it up to fit a small bag.ÀšÃ‚Â* I'd stop for a taco.ÀšÃ‚Â* Most every fast
food has a trash can outside for your remnants of lunch, toss it in on
the way out of the parking lot.ÀšÃ‚Â*ÀšÃ‚Â* Same with the vac at the car wash or
the gas station.

Technically it may be illegal but not as blatant as filling a dumpster.


Great tip from a democrat on how to make someone else pay for trash
disposal.
I didn't see your idea posted. Did I happen to miss it?

Mine was "bury it". I bet out in the boonies like that he has a
machine or knows someone who does. Use the bucket to compress it as
much as you can and bury it. Environmentally, you are "sequestering
carbon". That is supposed to be a good thing.

Sure. Bury it. The styrene monomers and other chemicals leech
into the groundwater and your kids drink it. Good idea.

That stuff is pretty stable ... for 10,000 years if you believe the
hype. That is why it is used so much for food containers and coffee
cups.

Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.

Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups! Hot coffee is
releasing toxins that will kill us all! Ban those cheap
coolers for food. Won't someone please think of the children?

It certainly wouldn't bother me. Some restaurants hereabouts already
have switched to coated cardboard for both takeout coffee and leftovers,
even soup to go in cardboard.

The most styrofoam I see is when we buy some sort of electronic thing.

We easily could cut way back on styrofoam use, and keep it for occasions
when it really is the only thing for the job.

Cindy Hamilton

On 1/16/2020 2:00 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 00:49:17 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:04:13 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 11:51:35 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/15/2020 11:14 AM, Larry wrote:
On 1/15/20 10:02 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Break it up to fit a small bag.ÀšÃ‚Â* I'd stop for a taco.ÀšÃ‚Â* Most every fast
food has a trash can outside for your remnants of lunch, toss it in on
the way out of the parking lot.ÀšÃ‚Â*ÀšÃ‚Â* Same with the vac at the car wash or
the gas station.

Technically it may be illegal but not as blatant as filling a dumpster.


Great tip from a democrat on how to make someone else pay for trash
disposal.
I didn't see your idea posted. Did I happen to miss it?

Mine was "bury it". I bet out in the boonies like that he has a
machine or knows someone who does. Use the bucket to compress it as
much as you can and bury it. Environmentally, you are "sequestering
carbon". That is supposed to be a good thing.

Sure. Bury it. The styrene monomers and other chemicals leech
into the groundwater and your kids drink it. Good idea.

That stuff is pretty stable ... for 10,000 years if you believe the
hype. That is why it is used so much for food containers and coffee
cups.

Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.

Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups! Hot coffee is
releasing toxins that will kill us all! Ban those cheap
coolers for food. Won't someone please think of the children?

It certainly wouldn't bother me. Some restaurants hereabouts already
have switched to coated cardboard for both takeout coffee and leftovers,
even soup to go in cardboard.

The most styrofoam I see is when we buy some sort of electronic thing.

We easily could cut way back on styrofoam use, and keep it for occasions
when it really is the only thing for the job.

Cindy Hamilton


Agreed we should limit use. However coated paper still has some plastic
and the paper making process is very environmentally unfriendly. Paper
gets recycled back into maybe cardboard but coating may reject recycling.

I think that the reason most recycling facilities do not accept
polystyrene is the numerous forms it comes in. There are people at the
dump that have to cherry pick the stuff that comes in.

On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?




[*] In most states, landfills are required to collect and treat any leachate.

On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 2:36:10 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

For reasons similar to the fact that you're ok drinking wine from
lead crystal but you shouldn't store it in lead crystal. Exposure
over time.

Cindy Hamilton

On 1/16/2020 2:36 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Because it has been on the GRAS list for years and has not caused any
problems. I've been in that industry for 45 years and never heard of
anyone exposed to the material having any side effects from it.

We also accepted non food material for recycling. It was nearly free,
just some cost to grind it. The only problem with recycling is the cost
of getting to to the user. It is cheap and bulky. A couple of local
appliance dealers would bring it every couple of weeks. That made sense
but to take an 8 ounce piece to our plant and burn a gallon of gas to do
it does not.

For decades it has been ground to be used by some farmers as a soil
aerator. That started in Europe. You sometimes find it mixed in
potting soil.

On 1/16/2020 3:10 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 2:36:10 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

For reasons similar to the fact that you're ok drinking wine from
lead crystal but you shouldn't store it in lead crystal. Exposure
over time.

Cindy Hamilton


Easy enough to find FDA approval for polystyrene contacting food:

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scrip...fm?fr=177.1640

Polystyrene is a poor choice as a food container, e.g. a wine bottle
because of poor oxygen permeability:

http://www.alphap.com/bottle-basics/...ison-chart.php

I just had to toss a 10 year old bottle of wine with a synthetic cork.
It was turning to vinegar. Never seen this with a natural cork although
they do breathe.

On 1/16/2020 3:25 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/16/2020 2:36 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal
wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent.Â* The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely.Â*Â* It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Because it has been on the GRAS list for years and has not caused any
problems.Â* I've been in that industry for 45 years and never heard of
anyone exposed to the material having any side effects from it.

We also accepted non food material for recycling.Â* It was nearly free,
just some cost to grind it.Â* The only problem with recycling is the cost
of getting to to the user.Â* It is cheap and bulky.Â* A couple of local
appliance dealers would bring it every couple of weeks.Â* That made sense
but to take an 8 ounce piece to our plant and burn a gallon of gas to do
it does not.

For decades it has been ground to be used by some farmers as a soil
aerator.Â* That started in Europe.Â* You sometimes find it mixed in
potting soil.

I don't see it on the GRAS list:

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...#se21.3.182_11

but pointed elsewhere where it is approved for food contact.

It is possible there are grades unacceptable for food contact because
they contain an ingredient, e.g. a dye, not approved for food contact.

trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Well, I don't. I haven't even seen a styrofoam cup for years
now. a few minutes != 500 years, so I don't know why you even
ask. See also BPA.

Ed Pawlowski writes:
On 1/16/2020 2:36 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Because it has been on the GRAS list for years and has not caused any
problems. I've been in that industry for 45 years and never heard of
anyone exposed to the material having any side effects from it.

We also accepted non food material for recycling. It was nearly free,
just some cost to grind it. The only problem with recycling is the cost
of getting to to the user. It is cheap and bulky. A couple of local
appliance dealers would bring it every couple of weeks. That made sense
but to take an 8 ounce piece to our plant and burn a gallon of gas to do
it does not.

For decades it has been ground to be used by some farmers as a soil
aerator. That started in Europe. You sometimes find it mixed in
potting soil.

Are you sure you're not confusing it with Vermiculite?

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 11:00:24 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 00:49:17 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:04:13 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 11:51:35 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/15/2020 11:14 AM, Larry wrote:
On 1/15/20 10:02 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Break it up to fit a small bag.ÀšÃ‚Â* I'd stop for a taco.ÀšÃ‚Â* Most every fast
food has a trash can outside for your remnants of lunch, toss it in on
the way out of the parking lot.ÀšÃ‚Â*ÀšÃ‚Â* Same with the vac at the car wash or
the gas station.

Technically it may be illegal but not as blatant as filling a dumpster.


Great tip from a democrat on how to make someone else pay for trash
disposal.
I didn't see your idea posted. Did I happen to miss it?

Mine was "bury it". I bet out in the boonies like that he has a
machine or knows someone who does. Use the bucket to compress it as
much as you can and bury it. Environmentally, you are "sequestering
carbon". That is supposed to be a good thing.

Sure. Bury it. The styrene monomers and other chemicals leech
into the groundwater and your kids drink it. Good idea.

That stuff is pretty stable ... for 10,000 years if you believe the
hype. That is why it is used so much for food containers and coffee
cups.

Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.

Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups! Hot coffee is
releasing toxins that will kill us all! Ban those cheap
coolers for food. Won't someone please think of the children?

It certainly wouldn't bother me. Some restaurants hereabouts already
have switched to coated cardboard for both takeout coffee and leftovers,
even soup to go in cardboard.

The most styrofoam I see is when we buy some sort of electronic thing.

We easily could cut way back on styrofoam use, and keep it for occasions
when it really is the only thing for the job.

Cindy Hamilton

I bet Scott will tell you about the stuff leaching out of the plastic
coating in the paper cup too.
They are also not particularly recyclable. My waste hauler doesn't
want them in the blue bin. They are trash.

On 2020-01-16 2:29 p.m., wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 11:00:24 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 00:49:17 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:04:13 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 11:51:35 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/15/2020 11:14 AM, Larry wrote:
On 1/15/20 10:02 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Break it up to fit a small bag.ÀšÃ‚Â* I'd stop for a taco.ÀšÃ‚Â* Most every fast
food has a trash can outside for your remnants of lunch, toss it in on
the way out of the parking lot.ÀšÃ‚Â*ÀšÃ‚Â* Same with the vac at the car wash or
the gas station.

Technically it may be illegal but not as blatant as filling a dumpster.


Great tip from a democrat on how to make someone else pay for trash
disposal.
I didn't see your idea posted. Did I happen to miss it?

Mine was "bury it". I bet out in the boonies like that he has a
machine or knows someone who does. Use the bucket to compress it as
much as you can and bury it. Environmentally, you are "sequestering
carbon". That is supposed to be a good thing.

Sure. Bury it. The styrene monomers and other chemicals leech
into the groundwater and your kids drink it. Good idea.

That stuff is pretty stable ... for 10,000 years if you believe the
hype. That is why it is used so much for food containers and coffee
cups.

Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.

Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups! Hot coffee is
releasing toxins that will kill us all! Ban those cheap
coolers for food. Won't someone please think of the children?

It certainly wouldn't bother me. Some restaurants hereabouts already
have switched to coated cardboard for both takeout coffee and leftovers,
even soup to go in cardboard.

The most styrofoam I see is when we buy some sort of electronic thing.

We easily could cut way back on styrofoam use, and keep it for occasions
when it really is the only thing for the job.

Cindy Hamilton

I bet Scott will tell you about the stuff leaching out of the plastic
coating in the paper cup too.
They are also not particularly recyclable. My waste hauler doesn't
want them in the blue bin. They are trash.

give it to the guys that have dog houses

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 21:25:16 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski writes:
On 1/16/2020 2:36 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Because it has been on the GRAS list for years and has not caused any
problems. I've been in that industry for 45 years and never heard of
anyone exposed to the material having any side effects from it.

We also accepted non food material for recycling. It was nearly free,
just some cost to grind it. The only problem with recycling is the cost
of getting to to the user. It is cheap and bulky. A couple of local
appliance dealers would bring it every couple of weeks. That made sense
but to take an 8 ounce piece to our plant and burn a gallon of gas to do
it does not.

For decades it has been ground to be used by some farmers as a soil
aerator. That started in Europe. You sometimes find it mixed in
potting soil.

Are you sure you're not confusing it with Vermiculite?

No I have seen lots of potting soil with balls of styrofoam in it. It
looks just like what you get when you crumble up a cheap cooler

On 1/16/2020 4:25 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Ed Pawlowski writes:
On 1/16/2020 2:36 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Because it has been on the GRAS list for years and has not caused any
problems. I've been in that industry for 45 years and never heard of
anyone exposed to the material having any side effects from it.

We also accepted non food material for recycling. It was nearly free,
just some cost to grind it. The only problem with recycling is the cost
of getting to to the user. It is cheap and bulky. A couple of local
appliance dealers would bring it every couple of weeks. That made sense
but to take an 8 ounce piece to our plant and burn a gallon of gas to do
it does not.

For decades it has been ground to be used by some farmers as a soil
aerator. That started in Europe. You sometimes find it mixed in
potting soil.

Are you sure you're not confusing it with Vermiculite?

If I meant vermiculite I would have said vermiculite. I sold truck
loads of the ground EPS material to nurseries and farmers.

On 01/16/2020 03:01 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 21:25:16 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski writes:
On 1/16/2020 2:36 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Because it has been on the GRAS list for years and has not caused any
problems. I've been in that industry for 45 years and never heard of
anyone exposed to the material having any side effects from it.

We also accepted non food material for recycling. It was nearly free,
just some cost to grind it. The only problem with recycling is the cost
of getting to to the user. It is cheap and bulky. A couple of local
appliance dealers would bring it every couple of weeks. That made sense
but to take an 8 ounce piece to our plant and burn a gallon of gas to do
it does not.

For decades it has been ground to be used by some farmers as a soil
aerator. That started in Europe. You sometimes find it mixed in
potting soil.

Are you sure you're not confusing it with Vermiculite?

No I have seen lots of potting soil with balls of styrofoam in it. It
looks just like what you get when you crumble up a cheap cooler


The cheap potting soils may have EPS. The better brands have perlite
which looks a lot like ground EPS and is easily told from vermiculite.

I don't know if vermiculite is back in favor. A lot came from the mine
in Libby, MT and contained asbestos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby,...rmiculite_mine

Did wonders for real estate values..

On 01/16/2020 02:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Well, I don't. I haven't even seen a styrofoam cup for years
now. a few minutes != 500 years, so I don't know why you even
ask. See also BPA.


https://www.amazon.com/Dart-20J16-Fo.../dp/B004NG8AAY

Somebody uses them... There are other problems. I worked for Sweetheart
Plastics in the '80s. They made a line of EPS disposable plates as well
as clamshell containers for McDonald's. They literally bought CFC's by
the railway tanker for the blowing agent.

I was long gone by the time the industry moved to HFC's. They were
better for ozone depletion but still had a high GWP. (global warming
potential). Now they're looking at hydrofluroolefins which have a very
short life in the atmosphere. They are more expensive of course.

Shipping was a problem that I don't believe was ever solved. Rather than
essentially moving air around the country, some way to create the foam
product at the point of use would be ideal.

On 01/16/2020 02:29 PM, wrote:
I bet Scott will tell you about the stuff leaching out of the plastic
coating in the paper cup too.
They are also not particularly recyclable. My waste hauler doesn't
want them in the blue bin. They are trash.

Sadly, they are very recyclable but there is no infrastructure to handle
it. When I worked for Sweetheart the rejects were immediately ground and
recycled.

That had an interesting side effect. One of the large contracts was for
McDonalds clamshells. McDonalds had very strict color specifications
that called for a sort of beige. Dyes were added to the blend, but the
amount of regrind also affected the color and was taken into
consideration. On good days when the lines were running smoothly and
there wasn't a lot of material being recycled, the color would be out of
spec.

Side note: dealing with Mickey Dee was a real pos. If the price of
crystal styrene dropped a penny a pound they wanted a discount. If it
went up, they didn't want to hear about it.

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:37:53 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

On 01/16/2020 02:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Well, I don't. I haven't even seen a styrofoam cup for years
now. a few minutes != 500 years, so I don't know why you even
ask. See also BPA.


https://www.amazon.com/Dart-20J16-Fo.../dp/B004NG8AAY

Somebody uses them... There are other problems. I worked for Sweetheart
Plastics in the '80s. They made a line of EPS disposable plates as well
as clamshell containers for McDonald's. They literally bought CFC's by
the railway tanker for the blowing agent.

I was long gone by the time the industry moved to HFC's. They were
better for ozone depletion but still had a high GWP. (global warming
potential). Now they're looking at hydrofluroolefins which have a very
short life in the atmosphere. They are more expensive of course.

Shipping was a problem that I don't believe was ever solved. Rather than
essentially moving air around the country, some way to create the foam
product at the point of use would be ideal.

They still sell a lot of foam plates, cups and bowls at the grocery
store and buyer's clubs so they are far from going away. Restaurants
still use the big white clamshells too.
I agree shipping must be a big part of the cost. Even nested tightly
together, you are still shipping a lot of air.

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 15:25:56 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/16/2020 2:36 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Because it has been on the GRAS list for years and has not caused any
problems. I've been in that industry for 45 years and never heard of
anyone exposed to the material having any side effects from it.

We also accepted non food material for recycling. It was nearly free,
just some cost to grind it. The only problem with recycling is the cost
of getting to to the user. It is cheap and bulky. A couple of local
appliance dealers would bring it every couple of weeks. That made sense
but to take an 8 ounce piece to our plant and burn a gallon of gas to do
it does not.

For decades it has been ground to be used by some farmers as a soil
aerator. That started in Europe. You sometimes find it mixed in
potting soil.
In place of vermiculite

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 21:25:16 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski writes:
On 1/16/2020 2:36 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Because it has been on the GRAS list for years and has not caused any
problems. I've been in that industry for 45 years and never heard of
anyone exposed to the material having any side effects from it.

We also accepted non food material for recycling. It was nearly free,
just some cost to grind it. The only problem with recycling is the cost
of getting to to the user. It is cheap and bulky. A couple of local
appliance dealers would bring it every couple of weeks. That made sense
but to take an 8 ounce piece to our plant and burn a gallon of gas to do
it does not.

For decades it has been ground to be used by some farmers as a soil
aerator. That started in Europe. You sometimes find it mixed in
potting soil.

Are you sure you're not confusing it with Vermiculite?
Styrene bubbles have been used in place of vermiculite for years by
some suppliers

On 1/16/2020 9:59 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:37:53 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

On 01/16/2020 02:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:52:53 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.=20
=20
Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups!

Surely disposing of them properly (e.g. recycling or
landfill[*]) is sufficient.

The point was that if they are toxic, they emit dangerous
substances, then why are we drinking hot beverages from them?

Well, I don't. I haven't even seen a styrofoam cup for years
now. a few minutes != 500 years, so I don't know why you even
ask. See also BPA.


https://www.amazon.com/Dart-20J16-Fo.../dp/B004NG8AAY

Somebody uses them... There are other problems. I worked for Sweetheart
Plastics in the '80s. They made a line of EPS disposable plates as well
as clamshell containers for McDonald's. They literally bought CFC's by
the railway tanker for the blowing agent.

I was long gone by the time the industry moved to HFC's. They were
better for ozone depletion but still had a high GWP. (global warming
potential). Now they're looking at hydrofluroolefins which have a very
short life in the atmosphere. They are more expensive of course.

Shipping was a problem that I don't believe was ever solved. Rather than
essentially moving air around the country, some way to create the foam
product at the point of use would be ideal.

They still sell a lot of foam plates, cups and bowls at the grocery
store and buyer's clubs so they are far from going away. Restaurants
still use the big white clamshells too.
I agree shipping must be a big part of the cost. Even nested tightly
together, you are still shipping a lot of air.

They got rid of the HFCs in the plates. The bead foam in cups and
packaging never had HFCs.

As for shipping, most of those products are class 300 or class 400 so
yes, it is expensive to move it. Many small regional manufacturing plants.

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:09:48 -0700, lowbrowman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

The cheap potting soils may have EPS. The better brands have perlite
which looks a lot like ground EPS and is easily told from vermiculite.

I trust that our endlessly blathering senile farmer boy knows something
about this.

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:37:53 -0700, lowbrowman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


https://www.amazon.com/Dart-20J16-Fo.../dp/B004NG8AAY

Somebody uses them... There are other problems. I worked for Sweetheart
Plastics in the '80s.

Oh, no! Not yet another lengthy senile bull**** story! tsk

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:48:27 -0700, lowbrowman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


Sadly, they are very recyclable but there is no infrastructure to handle
it. When I worked for Sweetheart

Oh, no! Not yet again! LOL

On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 4:29:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 11:00:24 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 11:20:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 00:49:17 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:04:13 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 11:51:35 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/15/2020 11:14 AM, Larry wrote:
On 1/15/20 10:02 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Break it up to fit a small bag.ÀšÃ‚Â* I'd stop for a taco.ÀšÃ‚Â* Most every fast
food has a trash can outside for your remnants of lunch, toss it in on
the way out of the parking lot.ÀšÃ‚Â*ÀšÃ‚Â* Same with the vac at the car wash or
the gas station.

Technically it may be illegal but not as blatant as filling a dumpster.


Great tip from a democrat on how to make someone else pay for trash
disposal.
I didn't see your idea posted. Did I happen to miss it?

Mine was "bury it". I bet out in the boonies like that he has a
machine or knows someone who does. Use the bucket to compress it as
much as you can and bury it. Environmentally, you are "sequestering
carbon". That is supposed to be a good thing.

Sure. Bury it. The styrene monomers and other chemicals leech
into the groundwater and your kids drink it. Good idea.

That stuff is pretty stable ... for 10,000 years if you believe the
hype. That is why it is used so much for food containers and coffee
cups.

Don't confuse the amount of time that it takes to completely degrade
(which is 500 years for styrofoam) with the time it takes to start
leaching benzine and other chemicals which happens over the entire
time period it is buried.

That 500 years assumes UV from the sun is hitting it.

Irrelevent. The material doesn't wait 500 years then suddenly
decompose completely. It decomposes over the entire period
releasing toxins the entire time.

Then ban those dangerous styrofoam beverage cups! Hot coffee is
releasing toxins that will kill us all! Ban those cheap
coolers for food. Won't someone please think of the children?

It certainly wouldn't bother me. Some restaurants hereabouts already
have switched to coated cardboard for both takeout coffee and leftovers,
even soup to go in cardboard.

The most styrofoam I see is when we buy some sort of electronic thing.

We easily could cut way back on styrofoam use, and keep it for occasions
when it really is the only thing for the job.

Cindy Hamilton

I bet Scott will tell you about the stuff leaching out of the plastic
coating in the paper cup too.
They are also not particularly recyclable. My waste hauler doesn't
want them in the blue bin. They are trash.

How about it leaching out of the potting soil. Will somebody please
think of the plants? They are being forced to consume polluted water.

rbowman writes:
On 01/16/2020 02:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:

Well, I don't. I haven't even seen a styrofoam cup for years
now. a few minutes != 500 years, so I don't know why you even
ask. See also BPA.


https://www.amazon.com/Dart-20J16-Fo.../dp/B004NG8AAY

Somebody uses them... There are other problems. I worked for Sweetheart
Plastics in the '80s. They made a line of EPS disposable plates as well
as clamshell containers for McDonald's. They literally bought CFC's by
the railway tanker for the blowing agent.

I was long gone by the time the industry moved to HFC's. They were
better for ozone depletion but still had a high GWP. (global warming
potential). Now they're looking at hydrofluroolefins which have a very
short life in the atmosphere. They are more expensive of course.

Shipping was a problem that I don't believe was ever solved. Rather than
essentially moving air around the country, some way to create the foam
product at the point of use would be ideal.

Or just use reusable drinking glasses/travel mugs/et alia and forgo the disposables.

writes:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:37:53 -0700, rbowman
wrote:


Well, I don't. I haven't even seen a styrofoam cup for years
now. a few minutes != 500 years, so I don't know why you even
ask. See also BPA.


https://www.amazon.com/Dart-20J16-Fo.../dp/B004NG8AAY

Somebody uses them... There are other problems. I worked for Sweetheart
Plastics in the '80s. They made a line of EPS disposable plates as well
as clamshell containers for McDonald's. They literally bought CFC's by
the railway tanker for the blowing agent.

I was long gone by the time the industry moved to HFC's. They were
better for ozone depletion but still had a high GWP. (global warming
potential). Now they're looking at hydrofluroolefins which have a very
short life in the atmosphere. They are more expensive of course.

Shipping was a problem that I don't believe was ever solved. Rather than
essentially moving air around the country, some way to create the foam
product at the point of use would be ideal.

They still sell a lot of foam plates, cups and bowls at the grocery
store and buyer's clubs so they are far from going away. Restaurants
still use the big white clamshells too.

That depends on where you live. You won't find them in stores in
the major metropolitan areas of California, for example. Paper
and plastic, yes, styrofoam not so much. Particularly for
restaurants which use the corn starch based compostable versions.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:27:38 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

rbowman writes:
On 01/16/2020 02:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:

Well, I don't. I haven't even seen a styrofoam cup for years
now. a few minutes != 500 years, so I don't know why you even
ask. See also BPA.


https://www.amazon.com/Dart-20J16-Fo.../dp/B004NG8AAY

Somebody uses them... There are other problems. I worked for Sweetheart
Plastics in the '80s. They made a line of EPS disposable plates as well
as clamshell containers for McDonald's. They literally bought CFC's by
the railway tanker for the blowing agent.

I was long gone by the time the industry moved to HFC's. They were
better for ozone depletion but still had a high GWP. (global warming
potential). Now they're looking at hydrofluroolefins which have a very
short life in the atmosphere. They are more expensive of course.

Shipping was a problem that I don't believe was ever solved. Rather than
essentially moving air around the country, some way to create the foam
product at the point of use would be ideal.

Or just use reusable drinking glasses/travel mugs/et alia and forgo the disposables.

Some day we will be hearing about all the water that is wasted washing
these things out. That has been the excuse restaurants have used for
years for not giving everyone a glass of water.
We are going to run out of potable water long before any of the
calamities Al and Greta are whining about.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:29:45 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:37:53 -0700, rbowman
wrote:


Well, I don't. I haven't even seen a styrofoam cup for years
now. a few minutes != 500 years, so I don't know why you even
ask. See also BPA.


https://www.amazon.com/Dart-20J16-Fo.../dp/B004NG8AAY

Somebody uses them... There are other problems. I worked for Sweetheart
Plastics in the '80s. They made a line of EPS disposable plates as well
as clamshell containers for McDonald's. They literally bought CFC's by
the railway tanker for the blowing agent.

I was long gone by the time the industry moved to HFC's. They were
better for ozone depletion but still had a high GWP. (global warming
potential). Now they're looking at hydrofluroolefins which have a very
short life in the atmosphere. They are more expensive of course.

Shipping was a problem that I don't believe was ever solved. Rather than
essentially moving air around the country, some way to create the foam
product at the point of use would be ideal.

They still sell a lot of foam plates, cups and bowls at the grocery
store and buyer's clubs so they are far from going away. Restaurants
still use the big white clamshells too.

That depends on where you live. You won't find them in stores in
the major metropolitan areas of California, for example. Paper
and plastic, yes, styrofoam not so much. Particularly for
restaurants which use the corn starch based compostable versions.

That doesn't surprise me in California.

On 01/17/2020 08:29 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:37:53 -0700, rbowman
wrote:


Well, I don't. I haven't even seen a styrofoam cup for years
now. a few minutes != 500 years, so I don't know why you even
ask. See also BPA.


https://www.amazon.com/Dart-20J16-Fo.../dp/B004NG8AAY

Somebody uses them... There are other problems. I worked for Sweetheart
Plastics in the '80s. They made a line of EPS disposable plates as well
as clamshell containers for McDonald's. They literally bought CFC's by
the railway tanker for the blowing agent.

I was long gone by the time the industry moved to HFC's. They were
better for ozone depletion but still had a high GWP. (global warming
potential). Now they're looking at hydrofluroolefins which have a very
short life in the atmosphere. They are more expensive of course.

Shipping was a problem that I don't believe was ever solved. Rather than
essentially moving air around the country, some way to create the foam
product at the point of use would be ideal.

They still sell a lot of foam plates, cups and bowls at the grocery
store and buyer's clubs so they are far from going away. Restaurants
still use the big white clamshells too.

That depends on where you live. You won't find them in stores in
the major metropolitan areas of California, for example. Paper
and plastic, yes, styrofoam not so much. Particularly for
restaurants which use the corn starch based compostable versions.


My last exposure to California major metropolitan areas was in the '90s.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 19:49:14 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

On 01/17/2020 08:29 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:37:53 -0700, rbowman
wrote:


Well, I don't. I haven't even seen a styrofoam cup for years
now. a few minutes != 500 years, so I don't know why you even
ask. See also BPA.


https://www.amazon.com/Dart-20J16-Fo.../dp/B004NG8AAY

Somebody uses them... There are other problems. I worked for Sweetheart
Plastics in the '80s. They made a line of EPS disposable plates as well
as clamshell containers for McDonald's. They literally bought CFC's by
the railway tanker for the blowing agent.

I was long gone by the time the industry moved to HFC's. They were
better for ozone depletion but still had a high GWP. (global warming
potential). Now they're looking at hydrofluroolefins which have a very
short life in the atmosphere. They are more expensive of course.

Shipping was a problem that I don't believe was ever solved. Rather than
essentially moving air around the country, some way to create the foam
product at the point of use would be ideal.

They still sell a lot of foam plates, cups and bowls at the grocery
store and buyer's clubs so they are far from going away. Restaurants
still use the big white clamshells too.

That depends on where you live. You won't find them in stores in
the major metropolitan areas of California, for example. Paper
and plastic, yes, styrofoam not so much. Particularly for
restaurants which use the corn starch based compostable versions.


My last exposure to California major metropolitan areas was in the '90s.

70s for me (LA and Frisco) but I have been to California a couple
times since. I got off the plane and drove out of town for 2 hours
immediately. Once you get away from the coast, California is OK.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 19:49:14 -0700, lowbrowman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


My last exposure to California major metropolitan areas was in the '90s.

Thanks for that important info, you endlessly gossiping senile Yankie
washerwoman! BG

On 01/17/2020 09:27 PM, wrote:
70s for me (LA and Frisco) but I have been to California a couple
times since. I got off the plane and drove out of town for 2 hours
immediately. Once you get away from the coast, California is OK.

Quite a few states have that problem. Upstate NY isn't Sodom on the
Hudson, western Massachusetts isn't Boston, even New Jersey isn't bad
when you get away from Newark and so forth.

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 11:08:28 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

On 01/17/2020 09:27 PM, wrote:
70s for me (LA and Frisco) but I have been to California a couple
times since. I got off the plane and drove out of town for 2 hours
immediately. Once you get away from the coast, California is OK.

Quite a few states have that problem. Upstate NY isn't Sodom on the
Hudson, western Massachusetts isn't Boston, even New Jersey isn't bad
when you get away from Newark and so forth.

I spent time in Kingston and Endicott. I understand that. They still
have some silly laws. Same with Mass and NJ.

On 01/18/2020 11:21 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 11:08:28 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

On 01/17/2020 09:27 PM, wrote:
70s for me (LA and Frisco) but I have been to California a couple
times since. I got off the plane and drove out of town for 2 hours
immediately. Once you get away from the coast, California is OK.

Quite a few states have that problem. Upstate NY isn't Sodom on the
Hudson, western Massachusetts isn't Boston, even New Jersey isn't bad
when you get away from Newark and so forth.

I spent time in Kingston and Endicott. I understand that. They still
have some silly laws. Same with Mass and NJ.


That's the problem with the blue state cities wagging the dog.

I've got a little different definition of upstate NY and it doesn't
include Kingston or the Southern Tier. It starts at the Federal dam on
the Hudson at Troy. Gillibrand lied her way into a seat in the 20th
district but once she clawed her way into the Senate her true colors
came out.