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#41
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
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#42
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) -yes or no?
On 10/6/19 2:22 PM, trader_4 wrote:
[snip] The main advantage to the pilot light and no blower ones is they cost less and you have hot water without power. Which has been really important to me during a power outage on a really cold day. It would have been much worse with no way to warm up. -- 79 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1 day). Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ Two hands working do more than a thousand clasped in prayer |
#43
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 14:44:37 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... I think Ralph has the answer. I already said if there is a regulator, and my load tests seem to confirm there is, it must be inside the generator head. Now that I actually see one, I know what to look for. I am also not shocked that they set it for 115/230. That was the convention for years. I still might be tempted to leave it alone since everything but one fridge seems OK where it was. bumping up the voltage will cause some things to use more power and I am right at the tripping point now. If the city is successful in moving us to municipal water I won't need as much capacity tho because I will lose 1.5 HP worth of pump load. I did not do a very good study of them , but it looks to me like you set the speed of the generator for 60 hz ( probably under some load) and then you adjust the voltage regulator to the desired voltage. It may depend on how old your generator is. I don't think my 20 year old one has the voltage regulator, but the one I bought a few months ago does. The little 700 watt HF unit only has a motor speed adjustment screw and it does not seem too reliable as to holding the voltage from one start up to the next. I bought it mostly to power electric tools away from the house and to light up a small shed that I don't think it is worth while running power to. Now I have a larger generator with wheels on it, I know I will not run power to that shed. This one seems pretty stable with voltage and frequency over the load range, zero to max so it has to have a voltage regulator. My bet is it looks pretty much like your You Tube example. I am different in my philosophy. I will run power anywhere I think I might need it. There is no place in my yard that you are more than 50 feet from 120v and water. Most places it is more like 25 or less. The shed and dock have power. Most of this got put in with my pool since the yard was torn up anyway. Between receptacles and lights, I ran almost a half mile of THHN/THWN in pipe. The pipes I ran are stuffed tho so hooking up other stuff is trivial at this point. |
#44
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 11:42:39 -0400, Home Guy wrote:
wrote: I would seriously suggest that you go to a slightly bigger & better make & model - this one doesn't have any 230 volt output. Also consider that your furnace is probably hard-wired - best to be prepared for the generator hook-up in advance - not after the power outage when it's dark & cold & the basement is flooding or freezer is thawing .. I'm only considering this because (a) it's relatively cheap today and (b) if I ever did need it, then so would several thousand other people and there'd be none on the shelf in that case. Absolutely no need for 220v. Only considering it if I'd be in the middle of a multi-day (or longer) power failure in winter, otherwise this thing would be sitting in the box, possibly for the next 5 to 10 years or who knows how long. So it's a pretty end-of-the-world type situation that I'd put it to use. Truth is I'd probably end up loaning it to friends/family going camping before I'd put it to this anticipated emergency use. I could easily rig up some wire to run the motor through the basement wall up to the outside where I'd have this thing running. Only the furnace would be on that circuit, disconnected from house wiring. Wouldn't need to power the fridge in this circumstance (the back porch would be our fridge). My gas water heater uses no electrical power at all, not for burner and has no draft fan. The only other thing I'd power off the generator would be my internet / network UPS. So I guess the short answer is yes, they have or could power an ordinary fractional HP electric motor. Exactly what my brother did. He wired the furnace through a DPDT switch to flip between grid and generator - and had several generator only outlets on the main floor of the house to run some lights and plug in small appliances. |
#46
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 02:47:11 -0400, micky
wrote: SNIPP The only other thing I'd power off the generator would be my internet / network UPS. They don't use much. But they're probably not near the furnace, so more extension cords and a so-called cube-tap. Mine are about 6 feet apart - but I have an interlock on my panel so it's not an issue. 240 volt genny too - -- My whole oil furnace, including air circulation fan, igniter transformer and fan and oil pump, and tiny bit of circuity uses a 15-amp breaker, so I'm sure your fan doesn't use more than 15 amps, 1700 watts or so. So I guess the short answer is yes, they have or could power an ordinary fractional HP electric motor. Go to bed at sundown, get up at dawn and use flashlights for the rest of the time. Wear muckalucks. |
#47
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 23:07:26 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... No way to find the voltage sensing circuit that controls the voltage. There must be a circuit that drives the current to the rotor. See what it's doing, maybe put a resistor in series to trick it out? Probably no schematics that show what the board or boards do though. Most of the simple generators only have a governed speed control. There is usually a mechanical adjustment for this somewhere in the 'fixed throttle'. I have not looked over my 5 kw generator in a while, but my little 700 watt Harbor Freight does have an adjustment screw that can set the speed of the engine. That adjusts frequency only - voltage is controlled by a (usually) solid state regulator which is (again generally) not adjustable |
#48
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
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#49
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:11:28 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 17:05:59 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 12:12:47 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... I'm only considering this because (a) it's relatively cheap today and (b) if I ever did need it, then so would several thousand other people and there'd be none on the shelf in that case. Absolutely no need for 220v. Only considering it if I'd be in the middle of a multi-day (or longer) power failure in winter, otherwise this thing would be sitting in the box, possibly for the next 5 to 10 years or who knows how long. So it's a pretty end-of-the-world type situation that I'd put it to use. Truth is I'd probably end up loaning it to friends/family going camping before I'd put it to this anticipated emergency use. You may want to look into the dual fuel generators that run on gas or propane. The propane stores for years. I found one like this on sale for about $ 350 and free shipping. It will put out 120 or 240 volts. If you only need 120 volts,you can flip a switch and parallel the 120 volt windings for twice the current. It even has a battery to start it. You just need to charge the battey every so often if you do not use it. It will start with the rope too if the battery is dead. Just beware many of the camper generators only put out 120 volts and if you ever need 240 volts you will not be able to get it. This unit comes with everything you need but the propane tank. The small BBQ grill size usually xost bout 30 to 40 dollars for an empty tank and less than$ 15 to fill them. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DuroMax-XP4...ble-Dual-Fuel- Propane-Gas-Camping-RV-Generator/223692061480?epid=203718508 &hash=item341515fb28:g:gAYAAOSwzgRW0vAW They do have bigger ones. We sledom loose power and I have a 5500 watt gas unit. I bought the propane unit so I do not have to worry about the gas for short durations of outage. I have a propane generator and it is not going to run very long on a 15 pound tank (AKA 20 but never true). My 5.5 KW burns 0.8 gallons an hour. A "grille" tank would last a little over 4 hours. Which is wny I have an NG connector as well as propane on mine - - - You need to retune the load block when you switch from propane to NG so it is really not just moving the hose |
#50
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:25:05 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 06:23:57 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 23:07:26 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... No way to find the voltage sensing circuit that controls the voltage. There must be a circuit that drives the current to the rotor. See what it's doing, maybe put a resistor in series to trick it out? Probably no schematics that show what the board or boards do though. Most of the simple generators only have a governed speed control. There is usually a mechanical adjustment for this somewhere in the 'fixed throttle'. I have not looked over my 5 kw generator in a while, but my little 700 watt Harbor Freight does have an adjustment screw that can set the speed of the engine. This one has a bracket that the governor spring hooks to with about 2 dozen holes and you just pick the one that puts the right tension on the spring. That spring adjustment does not adjust the SPEED - it adjusts the response to load change - in most cases. One whole one way from proper and it sags, one hole the other way and it over-shoots It certainly does adjust the speed and thus also the frequency. The governor only looks at a vane in the cooling hood and the spring tension is what determines how that vane adjusts the throttle plate. |
#51
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:35:57 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:11:28 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 17:05:59 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 12:12:47 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... I'm only considering this because (a) it's relatively cheap today and (b) if I ever did need it, then so would several thousand other people and there'd be none on the shelf in that case. Absolutely no need for 220v. Only considering it if I'd be in the middle of a multi-day (or longer) power failure in winter, otherwise this thing would be sitting in the box, possibly for the next 5 to 10 years or who knows how long. So it's a pretty end-of-the-world type situation that I'd put it to use. Truth is I'd probably end up loaning it to friends/family going camping before I'd put it to this anticipated emergency use. You may want to look into the dual fuel generators that run on gas or propane. The propane stores for years. I found one like this on sale for about $ 350 and free shipping. It will put out 120 or 240 volts. If you only need 120 volts,you can flip a switch and parallel the 120 volt windings for twice the current. It even has a battery to start it. You just need to charge the battey every so often if you do not use it. It will start with the rope too if the battery is dead. Just beware many of the camper generators only put out 120 volts and if you ever need 240 volts you will not be able to get it. This unit comes with everything you need but the propane tank. The small BBQ grill size usually xost bout 30 to 40 dollars for an empty tank and less than$ 15 to fill them. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DuroMax-XP4...ble-Dual-Fuel- Propane-Gas-Camping-RV-Generator/223692061480?epid=203718508 &hash=item341515fb28:g:gAYAAOSwzgRW0vAW They do have bigger ones. We sledom loose power and I have a 5500 watt gas unit. I bought the propane unit so I do not have to worry about the gas for short durations of outage. I have a propane generator and it is not going to run very long on a 15 pound tank (AKA 20 but never true). My 5.5 KW burns 0.8 gallons an hour. A "grille" tank would last a little over 4 hours. Which is wny I have an NG connector as well as propane on mine - - - You need to retune the load block when you switch from propane to NG so it is really not just moving the hose Yes you do - but that is a minor inconvenience when you run out of propane - - - - |
#52
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:39:10 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:25:05 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 06:23:57 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 23:07:26 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... No way to find the voltage sensing circuit that controls the voltage. There must be a circuit that drives the current to the rotor. See what it's doing, maybe put a resistor in series to trick it out? Probably no schematics that show what the board or boards do though. Most of the simple generators only have a governed speed control. There is usually a mechanical adjustment for this somewhere in the 'fixed throttle'. I have not looked over my 5 kw generator in a while, but my little 700 watt Harbor Freight does have an adjustment screw that can set the speed of the engine. This one has a bracket that the governor spring hooks to with about 2 dozen holes and you just pick the one that puts the right tension on the spring. That spring adjustment does not adjust the SPEED - it adjusts the response to load change - in most cases. One whole one way from proper and it sags, one hole the other way and it over-shoots It certainly does adjust the speed and thus also the frequency. The governor only looks at a vane in the cooling hood and the spring tension is what determines how that vane adjusts the throttle plate. Onlyu on the cheapest of engines, MOST use a flyball governor in the crankcase - and although moving the spring DOES change the RPM the MAIN effect is to change the response. |
#53
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 17:59:25 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:35:57 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:11:28 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 17:05:59 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 12:12:47 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... I'm only considering this because (a) it's relatively cheap today and (b) if I ever did need it, then so would several thousand other people and there'd be none on the shelf in that case. Absolutely no need for 220v. Only considering it if I'd be in the middle of a multi-day (or longer) power failure in winter, otherwise this thing would be sitting in the box, possibly for the next 5 to 10 years or who knows how long. So it's a pretty end-of-the-world type situation that I'd put it to use. Truth is I'd probably end up loaning it to friends/family going camping before I'd put it to this anticipated emergency use. You may want to look into the dual fuel generators that run on gas or propane. The propane stores for years. I found one like this on sale for about $ 350 and free shipping. It will put out 120 or 240 volts. If you only need 120 volts,you can flip a switch and parallel the 120 volt windings for twice the current. It even has a battery to start it. You just need to charge the battey every so often if you do not use it. It will start with the rope too if the battery is dead. Just beware many of the camper generators only put out 120 volts and if you ever need 240 volts you will not be able to get it. This unit comes with everything you need but the propane tank. The small BBQ grill size usually xost bout 30 to 40 dollars for an empty tank and less than$ 15 to fill them. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DuroMax-XP4...ble-Dual-Fuel- Propane-Gas-Camping-RV-Generator/223692061480?epid=203718508 &hash=item341515fb28:g:gAYAAOSwzgRW0vAW They do have bigger ones. We sledom loose power and I have a 5500 watt gas unit. I bought the propane unit so I do not have to worry about the gas for short durations of outage. I have a propane generator and it is not going to run very long on a 15 pound tank (AKA 20 but never true). My 5.5 KW burns 0.8 gallons an hour. A "grille" tank would last a little over 4 hours. Which is wny I have an NG connector as well as propane on mine - - - You need to retune the load block when you switch from propane to NG so it is really not just moving the hose Yes you do - but that is a minor inconvenience when you run out of propane - - - - If you have NG, why screw with propane in the first place. It is god awful expensive compared to piped gas. If they would run a gas pipe down my street I would hook up in a heartbeat. |
#54
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 18:01:37 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:39:10 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:25:05 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 06:23:57 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 23:07:26 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... No way to find the voltage sensing circuit that controls the voltage. There must be a circuit that drives the current to the rotor. See what it's doing, maybe put a resistor in series to trick it out? Probably no schematics that show what the board or boards do though. Most of the simple generators only have a governed speed control. There is usually a mechanical adjustment for this somewhere in the 'fixed throttle'. I have not looked over my 5 kw generator in a while, but my little 700 watt Harbor Freight does have an adjustment screw that can set the speed of the engine. This one has a bracket that the governor spring hooks to with about 2 dozen holes and you just pick the one that puts the right tension on the spring. That spring adjustment does not adjust the SPEED - it adjusts the response to load change - in most cases. One whole one way from proper and it sags, one hole the other way and it over-shoots It certainly does adjust the speed and thus also the frequency. The governor only looks at a vane in the cooling hood and the spring tension is what determines how that vane adjusts the throttle plate. Onlyu on the cheapest of engines, MOST use a flyball governor in the crankcase - and although moving the spring DOES change the RPM the MAIN effect is to change the response. I am not sure what you mean by response but this thing has about 30 holes and EVERY ONE changes the engine speed. |
#55
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 20:19:47 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 17:59:25 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:35:57 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:11:28 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 17:05:59 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 12:12:47 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... I'm only considering this because (a) it's relatively cheap today and (b) if I ever did need it, then so would several thousand other people and there'd be none on the shelf in that case. Absolutely no need for 220v. Only considering it if I'd be in the middle of a multi-day (or longer) power failure in winter, otherwise this thing would be sitting in the box, possibly for the next 5 to 10 years or who knows how long. So it's a pretty end-of-the-world type situation that I'd put it to use. Truth is I'd probably end up loaning it to friends/family going camping before I'd put it to this anticipated emergency use. You may want to look into the dual fuel generators that run on gas or propane. The propane stores for years. I found one like this on sale for about $ 350 and free shipping. It will put out 120 or 240 volts. If you only need 120 volts,you can flip a switch and parallel the 120 volt windings for twice the current. It even has a battery to start it. You just need to charge the battey every so often if you do not use it. It will start with the rope too if the battery is dead. Just beware many of the camper generators only put out 120 volts and if you ever need 240 volts you will not be able to get it. This unit comes with everything you need but the propane tank. The small BBQ grill size usually xost bout 30 to 40 dollars for an empty tank and less than$ 15 to fill them. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DuroMax-XP4...ble-Dual-Fuel- Propane-Gas-Camping-RV-Generator/223692061480?epid=203718508 &hash=item341515fb28:g:gAYAAOSwzgRW0vAW They do have bigger ones. We sledom loose power and I have a 5500 watt gas unit. I bought the propane unit so I do not have to worry about the gas for short durations of outage. I have a propane generator and it is not going to run very long on a 15 pound tank (AKA 20 but never true). My 5.5 KW burns 0.8 gallons an hour. A "grille" tank would last a little over 4 hours. Which is wny I have an NG connector as well as propane on mine - - - You need to retune the load block when you switch from propane to NG so it is really not just moving the hose Yes you do - but that is a minor inconvenience when you run out of propane - - - - If you have NG, why screw with propane in the first place. It is god awful expensive compared to piped gas. If they would run a gas pipe down my street I would hook up in a heartbeat. Because my generator does not produce as much power on NG as on Propane and being a portable unit it IS nice to have a portable fuel supply. |
#56
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 20:21:32 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 18:01:37 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:39:10 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:25:05 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 06:23:57 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 23:07:26 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... No way to find the voltage sensing circuit that controls the voltage. There must be a circuit that drives the current to the rotor. See what it's doing, maybe put a resistor in series to trick it out? Probably no schematics that show what the board or boards do though. Most of the simple generators only have a governed speed control. There is usually a mechanical adjustment for this somewhere in the 'fixed throttle'. I have not looked over my 5 kw generator in a while, but my little 700 watt Harbor Freight does have an adjustment screw that can set the speed of the engine. This one has a bracket that the governor spring hooks to with about 2 dozen holes and you just pick the one that puts the right tension on the spring. That spring adjustment does not adjust the SPEED - it adjusts the response to load change - in most cases. One whole one way from proper and it sags, one hole the other way and it over-shoots It certainly does adjust the speed and thus also the frequency. The governor only looks at a vane in the cooling hood and the spring tension is what determines how that vane adjusts the throttle plate. Onlyu on the cheapest of engines, MOST use a flyball governor in the crankcase - and although moving the spring DOES change the RPM the MAIN effect is to change the response. I am not sure what you mean by response but this thing has about 30 holes and EVERY ONE changes the engine speed. Governor response is how much the throttle opens when the RPM drops a given amount - too little response and speed lags under load. Too much response and speed increases under load - in other words it either undershoots or overshoots. : governor hunting orsurging up and down. Most of the time this is not the problem of thegovernor, but a partially plugged carburetor, usually a pluggedidle circuit or worn linkage. If you can rule out these causes andhave checked the adjustments I talked about above, then you may havea governor that is set too sensitive. In other words it reacts tooquickly and over compensates for the speed. Many governor arms haveseveral holes in the arm to change sensitivity. By moving thegovernor spring to a hole further away from the governor shaft youwill make it less sensitive. Before playing with this, check therepair manual for the engine you have and see if it has a way of adjusting sensitivity. Sometimes you may have to change governorsprings, etc. see: http://www.smallenginesuppliers.com/...djustment.html for more information. Basically adjusting the STRENTH of the spring regulates the RPM - adjusting the length of the generator arm regulates the governor response. |
#57
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 23:44:57 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 20:21:32 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 18:01:37 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:39:10 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:25:05 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 06:23:57 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 23:07:26 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... No way to find the voltage sensing circuit that controls the voltage. There must be a circuit that drives the current to the rotor. See what it's doing, maybe put a resistor in series to trick it out? Probably no schematics that show what the board or boards do though. Most of the simple generators only have a governed speed control. There is usually a mechanical adjustment for this somewhere in the 'fixed throttle'. I have not looked over my 5 kw generator in a while, but my little 700 watt Harbor Freight does have an adjustment screw that can set the speed of the engine. This one has a bracket that the governor spring hooks to with about 2 dozen holes and you just pick the one that puts the right tension on the spring. That spring adjustment does not adjust the SPEED - it adjusts the response to load change - in most cases. One whole one way from proper and it sags, one hole the other way and it over-shoots It certainly does adjust the speed and thus also the frequency. The governor only looks at a vane in the cooling hood and the spring tension is what determines how that vane adjusts the throttle plate. Onlyu on the cheapest of engines, MOST use a flyball governor in the crankcase - and although moving the spring DOES change the RPM the MAIN effect is to change the response. I am not sure what you mean by response but this thing has about 30 holes and EVERY ONE changes the engine speed. Governor response is how much the throttle opens when the RPM drops a given amount - too little response and speed lags under load. Too much response and speed increases under load - in other words it either undershoots or overshoots. : governor hunting orsurging up and down. Most of the time this is not the problem of thegovernor, but a partially plugged carburetor, usually a pluggedidle circuit or worn linkage. If you can rule out these causes andhave checked the adjustments I talked about above, then you may havea governor that is set too sensitive. In other words it reacts tooquickly and over compensates for the speed. Many governor arms haveseveral holes in the arm to change sensitivity. By moving thegovernor spring to a hole further away from the governor shaft youwill make it less sensitive. Before playing with this, check therepair manual for the engine you have and see if it has a way of adjusting sensitivity. Sometimes you may have to change governorsprings, etc. see: http://www.smallenginesuppliers.com/...djustment.html for more information. Basically adjusting the STRENTH of the spring regulates the RPM - adjusting the length of the generator arm regulates the governor response. The holes are in the fixed bracket the spring hooks on, not the arm. That does change the tension on the spring |
#58
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
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#59
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:47:33 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... I have not looked over my 5 kw generator in a while, but my little 700 watt Harbor Freight does have an adjustment screw that can set the speed of the engine. That adjusts frequency only - voltage is controlled by a (usually) solid state regulator which is (again generally) not adjustable I doubt the HG generator has the regulator. I put a volt meter on mine and the speed adjustment changes the voltage. By the same token, the frequency changes too. The electronic regulators are probably on the larger generators and newer ones. If you call 10 or 20 years newer. I had on OLD Onan genset - so old it did not have a recoil starter and was an 1800RPM single - and the voltage barely changed from 1200 to 2000 RPM, but the frequency sure did. The governor was mis-adjusted when I got it and it over corrected seriously - it would surge like crazy under load. I finally got the linkage corrected and it was pretty much rock steady under load after it was warmed up. Voltage was steady untill loaded beyond it's maximum current rating - where the engine would tend to bog down and stall. When the generatoe went into a surge the light intensity did change ernough that you could see it - but not seriously |
#60
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
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#61
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 16:28:08 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... The electronic regulators are probably on the larger generators and newer ones. If you call 10 or 20 years newer. I had on OLD Onan genset - so old it did not have a recoil starter and was an 1800RPM single - and the voltage barely changed from 1200 to 2000 RPM, but the frequency sure did. The governor was mis-adjusted when I got it and it over corrected seriously - it would surge like crazy under load. I finally got the linkage corrected and it was pretty much rock steady under load after it was warmed up. Voltage was steady untill loaded beyond it's maximum current rating - where the engine would tend to bog down and stall. When the generatoe went into a surge the light intensity did change ernough that you could see it - but not seriously My Coleman 5 kw I bought about 1999 does not have a any electronic regulation. It is just controled by the govenor. I did set the speed under a portable heater of about 1500 watts and 120 volts for a load. The speed control changd both the frequency and voltage. I used an old viberating reed frequency meter and a true RMS Fluke meter to do the adjusting. My newer dual fuel I bought a few months back does have the electronic regulator module. It was very close, so I did not look for adjustemnts on it. My B&S 5 kw generator does not show any electronic regulator either on the wiring diagram. It is about 10 years old. Hate to say it, but I have not even ran it. I bought it when I thought the first one had engine problems, but turned out it did not . That sounds like the Briggs 5.5 I have but there must be some kind of regulator because the voltage is steady from no load to full load. The You Tube says it is inside the generator head. I just have not had time to look. I really don't want to screw with it until the Gulf gets below 80f. (AKA 26.5 up in the frozen north) I think that engine must be somewhat oversized too because I do not see any fall off in performance between gasoline and propane. It will get up to a high enough current to trip the breaker on either one (~25a) and the voltage is steady at 115/230. That is 5.7kva |
#62
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) -yes or no?
On 10/19/2019 10:44 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 20:21:32 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 18:01:37 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:39:10 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:25:05 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 06:23:57 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 23:07:26 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... No way to find the voltage sensing circuit that controls the voltage. There must be a circuit that drives the current to the rotor. See what it's doing, maybe put a resistor in series to trick it out? Probably no schematics that show what the board or boards do though. Most of the simple generators only have a governed speed control. There is usually a mechanical adjustment for this somewhere in the 'fixed throttle'. I have not looked over my 5 kw generator in a while, but my little 700 watt Harbor Freight does have an adjustment screw that can set the speed of the engine. This one has a bracket that the governor spring hooks to with about 2 dozen holes and you just pick the one that puts the right tension on the spring. That spring adjustment does not adjust the SPEED - it adjusts the response to load change - in most cases. One whole one way from proper and it sags, one hole the other way and it over-shoots It certainly does adjust the speed and thus also the frequency. The governor only looks at a vane in the cooling hood and the spring tension is what determines how that vane adjusts the throttle plate. Onlyu on the cheapest of engines, MOST use a flyball governor in the crankcase - and although moving the spring DOES change the RPM the MAIN effect is to change the response. I am not sure what you mean by response but this thing has about 30 holes and EVERY ONE changes the engine speed. Governor response is how much the throttle opens when the RPM drops a given amount - too little response and speed lags under load. Too much response and speed increases under load - in other words it either undershoots or overshoots. : governor hunting orsurging up and down. Most of the time this is not the problem of thegovernor, but a partially plugged carburetor, usually a pluggedidle circuit or worn linkage. If you can rule out these causes andhave checked the adjustments I talked about above, then you may havea governor that is set too sensitive. In other words it reacts tooquickly and over compensates for the speed. Many governor arms haveseveral holes in the arm to change sensitivity. By moving thegovernor spring to a hole further away from the governor shaft youwill make it less sensitive. Before playing with this, check therepair manual for the engine you have and see if it has a way of adjusting sensitivity. Sometimes you may have to change governorsprings, etc. see: http://www.smallenginesuppliers.com/...djustment.html for more information. Basically adjusting the STRENTH of the spring regulates the RPM - adjusting the length of the generator arm regulates the governor response. Â* You're talking about changing the length (the ratio) of the arm , he's talking about changing the length and therefor the tension on the spring . Two related but different things . Yer BOTHÂ* right ! -- Snag Yes , I'm old and crochety - and armed . Get outta my woods ! |
#63
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) -yes or no?
Very interesting. On some of these they use a flame sensor that relies on just a steel rod, whereby somehow the flame itself generates a small voltage. Seems that would rely on sensing a voltage between that rod and ground, ie EGC. And if the generator is not properly grounded to the house ground, to the furnace, I can see how that would be a problem. And don't ask me about the physics whereby that flame sensor works.... Trader, some electronic controls NEED the neutral power line (white wire) to be at or near the same voltage as the safety ground (green wire) or else they will throw an error code. If the neutral and ground are bonded together in the generator as they should be, it should work fine. Mark |
#64
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
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#65
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) -yes or no?
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 9:44:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Very interesting. On some of these they use a flame sensor that relies on just a steel rod, whereby somehow the flame itself generates a small voltage. Seems that would rely on sensing a voltage between that rod and ground, ie EGC. And if the generator is not properly grounded to the house ground, to the furnace, I can see how that would be a problem. And don't ask me about the physics whereby that flame sensor works.... Trader, some electronic controls NEED the neutral power line (white wire) to be at or near the same voltage as the safety ground (green wire) or else they will throw an error code. If the neutral and ground are bonded together in the generator as they should be, it should work fine. Mark I agree. But that doesn't sound like what Danny was talking about, he was pointing the finger at flames sensors. A code for an incoming power problem would set a different code. But then the whole thing was vague, so who knows. I also later posted that I don't see how the flame sensor would be sensitive to any of this, because they are on the DC side of the power, a rod type would rely on detecting a very small voltage between the rod and metal frame of the furnace on the DC side and I don't see how that could be affected by a generator. Also there sure a lot of people using generators with furnaces and this is the first I've ever heard of anything like this. So Fretwell maybe right, anecdotal, second had reports from one HVAC guy, who knows what was really going on. As to the neutral and ground being bonded together in the generator, that's only correct if you're using extension cords. If the generator is wired into the panel, then unless the neutral is also switched, which few are, the neutral at the generator is not to be bonded to ground there, if you follow code. Also, from what I can gather, most generators have the neutral and ground bonded from the factory, but some do not. And if you have one that is bonded and it includes GFCI on the main output that you're connecting to the house panel, then unless you have a switched neutral at the panel, the GFCI will trip as soon as it's connected and turned on. Some people have their generators set up with the neutral and ground not bonded and then use a shorting plug that makes that connection when using the generator as a portable. |
#66
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) -yes or no?
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 10:08:04 AM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 06:44:19 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Very interesting. On some of these they use a flame sensor that relies on just a steel rod, whereby somehow the flame itself generates a small voltage. Seems that would rely on sensing a voltage between that rod and ground, ie EGC. And if the generator is not properly grounded to the house ground, to the furnace, I can see how that would be a problem. And don't ask me about the physics whereby that flame sensor works.... Trader, some electronic controls NEED the neutral power line (white wire) to be at or near the same voltage as the safety ground (green wire) or else they will throw an error code. If the neutral and ground are bonded together in the generator as they should be, it should work fine. Mark Some engineers are lazy, and the accountants win out - so the flame sensor only uses one wire, resorting to the "chassis ground" for return. If the chassis ground and the neutral are at different potential, the controller mis-reads the sensor foltage and determines that the flame has gone out - so it shuts off the gas and the flame DOES go out. The flame sensor is with the electronics, on the DC side, and one would expect that the DC side would be tied to ground via the metal frame of the furnace. It has to be to complete a circuit for the flame sensor to work. So, I'm not seeing how a difference in potential between the neutral and ground would be an issue. For that matter, there is typically a varying difference in voltage between them all the time. It will depend on the current flow in the neutral, which changes. So, if the furnace is sensitive to that, why doesn't it trip frequently on line power too? |
#67
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Using portable generator to power furnace fan (AC/PSC motor) - yes or no?
In trader_4 writes:
I agree. But that doesn't sound like what Danny was talking about, he was pointing the finger at flames sensors. A code for an incoming power problem would set a different code. But then the whole thing was vague, so who knows. Danny, in his original comment, emphasized he was quoting from one of the local HVAC installers (a legitimately highly regarded group) regarding problems with standby generators and heating systems, and didn't have direct, first hand, experience. -- __________________________________________________ ___ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] |
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