"While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have
fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said
about or to the people in the countries responsible for the vast
majority of pollution."

Another example of the liberal / leftist decrepid mentality.

The west has brainwashed itself into believing that pointing out,
reporting or discussing the failings and negative behavior of other
"races" is itself racist and must be avoided if not criticized.

Of course Asia and Africa (and south america - right Shadow?) is
destroying their ecosystems at a wild pace, with Bill Gates helping
Africa expode their population by dropping infant death rates.

=============================

90% Of Plastic Waste Polluting Earth's Oceans Comes From Asia and Africa

Sat, 09/21/2019 - 08:10

Authored by Paul Joseph Watson via Summit News

Despite westerners being lectured by climate activists like Greta
Thunberg, a study has found that around 90 per cent of plastic waste
polluting earth’s oceans comes from Asia and Africa.

During her U.S. tour, Thunberg cited “horrifying pictures of plastic in
the oceans,” as one of the primary reasons why Americans should listen
to her.

However, researchers at Germany’s Helmholtz Centre for Environmental
Research discovered that a small number of rivers account for the vast
majority of plastic pollution and none of them are located in western
countries.

“The 10 top-ranked rivers transport 88-95 percent of the global load
into the sea,” Dr. Christian Schmidt, a hydrogeologist who led the
study, told the Daily Mail.

“The rivers with the highest estimated plastic loads are
characterized by high population – for instance the Yangtze with over
half a billion people.”

Out of the top ten rivers that produce the most pollution, eight are in
Asia and two are in Africa. The Yangtze River in China and the Ganges
River in India were responsible for the most plastic pollution.

While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have fewer
children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said about or to
the people in the countries responsible for the vast majority of
pollution.

This is probably one of the main reasons why many in the west remain
skeptical about the true motives of the environmentalist movement.

As we reported earlier, only 38 per cent of Americans believe global
warming is man made.

* * *

My voice is being silenced by free speech-hating Silicon Valley
behemoths who want me disappeared forever. It is CRUCIAL that you
support me. Please sign up for the free newsletter here. Donate to me on
SubscribeStar here. Support my sponsor – Turbo Force – a supercharged
boost of clean energy without the comedown.

https://www.zerohedge.com/health/90-...sia-and-africa

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 10:07:28 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
"While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have
fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said
about or to the people in the countries responsible for the vast
majority of pollution."

Another example of the liberal / leftist decrepid mentality.

If my neighbor throws his garbage in the street, that doesn't mean
I have an excuse to throw mine in the street.

Cindy Hamilton

Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 10:07:28 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
"While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have
fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said
about or to the people in the countries responsible for the vast
majority of pollution."

Another example of the liberal / leftist decrepid mentality.

If my neighbor throws his garbage in the street, that doesn't mean
I have an excuse to throw mine in the street.

No, but it should mean that you report him and expect the authorities to
take action against him, and society shouldn't treat you as the leper.

See how that works Cindy?

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 10:31:35 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 10:07:28 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
"While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have
fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said
about or to the people in the countries responsible for the vast
majority of pollution."

Another example of the liberal / leftist decrepid mentality.

If my neighbor throws his garbage in the street, that doesn't mean
I have an excuse to throw mine in the street.

No, but it should mean that you report him and expect the authorities to
take action against him, and society shouldn't treat you as the leper.

See how that works Cindy?

Is there an authority? Here's where argument by analogy breaks down.

Your granny said "waste not, want not". Now we say "reduce, reuse, recycle".

We should just do the right thing because it's the right thing. If it
takes a sense of shame for people to do the right thing in this country,
so be it.

Cindy Hamilton

On 9/21/2019 11:20 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 10:31:35 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 10:07:28 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
"While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have
fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said
about or to the people in the countries responsible for the vast
majority of pollution."

Another example of the liberal / leftist decrepid mentality.

If my neighbor throws his garbage in the street, that doesn't mean
I have an excuse to throw mine in the street.

No, but it should mean that you report him and expect the authorities to
take action against him, and society shouldn't treat you as the leper.

See how that works Cindy?

Is there an authority? Here's where argument by analogy breaks down.

Your granny said "waste not, want not". Now we say "reduce, reuse, recycle".

We should just do the right thing because it's the right thing. If it
takes a sense of shame for people to do the right thing in this country,
so be it.

Cindy Hamilton


Most of us learned a long time ago but evidently our neighbors have not.
Maybe we should send Lady Bird to those counties to teach them how to
behave. Seems they have different attitudes about trash.

"While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have
fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said
about or to the people in the countries responsible for the vast
majority of pollution."

Another example of the liberal / leftist decrepid mentality.

Cindy Hamilton wrote:


If my neighbor throws his garbage in the street, that doesn't
mean I have an excuse to throw mine in the street.

No, but it should mean that you report him and expect the
authorities to take action against him, and society shouldn't
treat you as the leper.

See how that works Cindy?

Is there an authority? Here's where argument by analogy breaks
down.

You brought up the analogy.

And yes, there is an authority. The court of public opinion, which
drives our public policy, says that we can't criticize the ecological
and pollution practices of asia and africa because that's too close to
being racist.

But we can alter how we trade, give charity and economic aid and provide
arms to those countries and that's how we go about correcting their
polluting ways.

If we're truly concerned with planetary ecology then we must do more to
correct 90% of this or that problem or we are simply nothing more than
intellectual and emotional cowards (but that's the definition of a
leftist which are the people driving this so we are stuck with that).

On Sat, 21 Sep 2019 07:20:44 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 10:07:28 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
"While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have
fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said
about or to the people in the countries responsible for the vast
majority of pollution."

Another example of the liberal / leftist decrepid mentality.

If my neighbor throws his garbage in the street, that doesn't mean
I have an excuse to throw mine in the street.

Cindy Hamilton

I certainly agree the answer for everyone is not to litter and to be
more diligent about picking it up but if you look around you see most
of the litter here that makes it to the sea comes from the same
people who demonstrate very little responsibility in the other aspects
of their personal lives. I also think placing a bounty on clean
bottles and cans with legible labels like they do in your state is
just chipping around the edges of the problem. A bottle in the gutter
with a missing label has no cash value so there is no incentive to
pick it up as well as any other trash that doesn't carry a bounty.
We don't have a trash/litter problem around here, people pick up the
litter, no matter what it is. This is not a government program, it is
just neighbors being good neighbors. My river is pretty much pristine
and if there is a stray bottle or can in the mangroves or in the swale
near their house, someone takes that 30 seconds out of their busy day
to pick it up.

I don't expect the irresponsible to do that, in Africa or in
Washington DC.

On 09/21/2019 09:20 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
We should just do the right thing because it's the right thing. If it
takes a sense of shame for people to do the right thing in this country,
so be it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-...um_of_cultures

You're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Northern Europe had a
culture based on shame and honor before it was replaced by the Christian
guilt culture. Christianity isn't what it used to be in this country so
the next stop is fear. 'If I put my plastic bottle in the wrong bin the
SWAT team will kick the door down.'

In Japan Sackler would be contemplating seppuku; it the US he is
contemplating how to move billions into shell companies and bankrupt
Purdue Pharma so the states find a bare cupboard.

On 09/21/2019 09:34 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Most of us learned a long time ago but evidently our neighbors have not.
Maybe we should send Lady Bird to those counties to teach them how to
behave. Seems they have different attitudes about trash.

Duterte has the right idea -- send the trash back to Trudeau.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 21 Sep 2019 08:20:24 -0700 (PDT), Cindy
Hamilton wrote:

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 10:31:35 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 10:07:28 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
"While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have
fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said
about or to the people in the countries responsible for the vast
majority of pollution."

Another example of the liberal / leftist decrepid mentality.

If my neighbor throws his garbage in the street, that doesn't mean
I have an excuse to throw mine in the street.

No, but it should mean that you report him and expect the authorities to
take action against him, and society shouldn't treat you as the leper.

See how that works Cindy?

Is there an authority? Here's where argument by analogy breaks down.

Your granny said "waste not, want not". Now we say "reduce, reuse, recycle".

Use it up, wear it out.
Fix it up or do without.

I don't know anyone who actually said this but I still live by the first
3 parts.

We should just do the right thing because it's the right thing. If it
takes a sense of shame for people to do the right thing in this country,
so be it.

Yep.

Cindy Hamilton

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 12:22:40 PM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
"While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have
fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said
about or to the people in the countries responsible for the vast
majority of pollution."

Another example of the liberal / leftist decrepid mentality.

Cindy Hamilton wrote:


If my neighbor throws his garbage in the street, that doesn't
mean I have an excuse to throw mine in the street.

No, but it should mean that you report him and expect the
authorities to take action against him, and society shouldn't
treat you as the leper.

See how that works Cindy?

Is there an authority? Here's where argument by analogy breaks
down.

You brought up the analogy.

And yes, there is an authority. The court of public opinion, which
drives our public policy, says that we can't criticize the ecological
and pollution practices of asia and africa because that's too close to
being racist.

I fear that ending genuine racism will be lost in the drive to make everyone
feel good.

But we can alter how we trade, give charity and economic aid and provide
arms to those countries and that's how we go about correcting their
polluting ways.

You'll get no argument from me on that, although the trade thing might
be difficult to manage. Americans always want the lowest prices.

If we're truly concerned with planetary ecology then we must do more to
correct 90% of this or that problem or we are simply nothing more than
intellectual and emotional cowards (but that's the definition of a
leftist which are the people driving this so we are stuck with that).

Cinddy Hamilton

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 12:52:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Sep 2019 07:20:44 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 10:07:28 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
"While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have
fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said
about or to the people in the countries responsible for the vast
majority of pollution."

Another example of the liberal / leftist decrepid mentality.

If my neighbor throws his garbage in the street, that doesn't mean
I have an excuse to throw mine in the street.

Cindy Hamilton

I certainly agree the answer for everyone is not to litter and to be
more diligent about picking it up but if you look around you see most
of the litter here that makes it to the sea comes from the same
people who demonstrate very little responsibility in the other aspects
of their personal lives. I also think placing a bounty on clean
bottles and cans with legible labels like they do in your state is
just chipping around the edges of the problem. A bottle in the gutter
with a missing label has no cash value so there is no incentive to
pick it up as well as any other trash that doesn't carry a bounty.
We don't have a trash/litter problem around here, people pick up the
litter, no matter what it is. This is not a government program, it is
just neighbors being good neighbors. My river is pretty much pristine
and if there is a stray bottle or can in the mangroves or in the swale
near their house, someone takes that 30 seconds out of their busy day
to pick it up.

I don't expect the irresponsible to do that, in Africa or in
Washington DC.

It's not just litter, though. We need an incentive to develop better
everything: more biodegradable plastics (perhaps from plant sources),
fuels and lubricants, the whole ball of wax.

Cindy Hamilton

On 09/22/2019 04:53 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
It's not just litter, though. We need an incentive to develop better
everything: more biodegradable plastics (perhaps from plant sources),
fuels and lubricants, the whole ball of wax.


With bee populations in decline, the wax thing might be a problem. Whale
oil isn't politically correct anymore.

While I agree with you there also has to be a greater degree of
something. I'm at loss for an appropriate word.

https://www.tatermadebags.com/

On the face of it, that seems like a great idea. If you look at the
whole cycle of polylactic acid production from seeds to end products
does the idea hold up? After the oil embargo there were attempts to
produce thermoset molding compounds from furfural to replace
phenol-formaldehyde resins. There was limited success.

In either case while limited production is feasible, where does the
biomass come from? Phenol can also be produced from oil derived from
junipers and pinyon pine. Is it time to clear cut thousand of square
miles of the southwest? If you want to ramp up polylactic acid
production do you divert potatoes from food to plastic bags? Tom's of
Maine started a project to use unmarketable potatoes to make
biodegradable packaging peanuts. That might work for one very small
company in potato country but does it scale? How much land would need to
be diverted to potato production? What crops would it displace?

E15 fuel is a good example. The tariff wars might make corn growers
uneasy but if you want to really make them howl talk about reducing the
mandated use of alcohol. What happens when the Ogallala Aquifer comes up
dry?

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 12:22:40 PM UTC-4, Home
Guy wrote:
"While westerners are being told to alter their
lifestyles and have
fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing
is being said
about or to the people in the countries responsible
for the vast
majority of pollution."

Check out this river in Santo Domingo:

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=uPSJu_1569039579

On 9/22/2019 11:49 AM, Phil Kangas wrote:

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 12:22:40 PM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
"While westerners are being told to alter their lifestyles and have
Â*Â* fewer children to save the planet, virtually nothing is being said
Â*Â* about or to the people in the countries responsible for the vast
Â*Â* majority of pollution."

Check out this river in Santo Domingo:

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=uPSJu_1569039579

That is why third world countries remain third world. That will end up
in the ocean and the US will get taxed for plastic bags

On 9/22/2019 11:38 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2019 04:53 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
It's not just litter, though.Â* We need an incentive to develop better
everything:Â* more biodegradable plastics (perhaps from plant sources),
fuels and lubricants, the whole ball of wax.


With bee populations in decline, the wax thing might be a problem. Whale
oil isn't politically correct anymore.

While I agree with you there also has to be a greater degree of
something. I'm at loss for an appropriate word.

https://www.tatermadebags.com/


From their web site:
The world uses over 300 million tons of plastics each year, most of
which ends up in landfills €“ and sometimes in oceans and other
waterways. The plastics market is complex, and bioplastics make up only
a tiny portion of the worlds plastics.

How much energy is in those 300 million tons Most plastics are about
18,000 BTU per pound. Instead of burying it, burn it to make electricity.

On 09/22/2019 11:03 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2019 11:38 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2019 04:53 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
It's not just litter, though. We need an incentive to develop better
everything: more biodegradable plastics (perhaps from plant sources),
fuels and lubricants, the whole ball of wax.


With bee populations in decline, the wax thing might be a problem.
Whale oil isn't politically correct anymore.

While I agree with you there also has to be a greater degree of
something. I'm at loss for an appropriate word.

https://www.tatermadebags.com/


From their web site:
The world uses over 300 million tons of plastics each year, most of
which ends up in landfills €“ and sometimes in oceans and other
waterways. The plastics market is complex, and bioplastics make up only
a tiny portion of the worlds plastics.

How much energy is in those 300 million tons Most plastics are about
18,000 BTU per pound. Instead of burying it, burn it to make electricity.

Possible, but it's not as simple as it sounds. Set your foam coffee cup
on fire... Pyrolytic gasification can work for some types of plastic.
That's basically the destructive distillation that has been used for
centuries. Others, like PVC, are nasty when they decompose, while some
like PETE give off oxygen on decomposition which blows the oxygen free
environment.

On 9/22/2019 1:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2019 11:03 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2019 11:38 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2019 04:53 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
It's not just litter, though.Â* We need an incentive to develop better
everything:Â* more biodegradable plastics (perhaps from plant sources),
fuels and lubricants, the whole ball of wax.


With bee populations in decline, the wax thing might be a problem.
Whale oil isn't politically correct anymore.

While I agree with you there also has to be a greater degree of
something. I'm at loss for an appropriate word.

https://www.tatermadebags.com/


From their web site:
The world uses over 300 million tons of plastics each year, most of
which ends up in landfills €“ and sometimes in oceans and other
waterways. The plastics market is complex, and bioplastics make up only
a tiny portion of the worlds plastics.

How much energy is in those 300 million tonsÂ* Most plastics are about
18,000 BTU per pound.Â* Instead of burying it, burn it to make
electricity.

Possible, but it's not as simple as it sounds. Set your foam coffee cup
on fire...Â* Pyrolytic gasification can work for some types of plastic.
That's basically the destructive distillation that has been used for
centuries. Others, like PVC, are nasty when they decompose, while some
like PETE give off oxygen on decomposition which blows the oxygen free
environment.



There are trash to energy plants that evidently can handle it. The one
near our town has been in operation about 20 years.

Going back before trash to energy, the town where I worked in the 70s
had an incinerator. They liked our EPS plastic trash as they used it in
a mix that would get even soggy trash to burn.

Quick Google search:
Waste to Energy plants in US
At the end of 2015, the United States had 71 waste-to-energy (WTE)
plants that generated electricity in 20 U.S. states, with a total
generating capacity of 2.3 gigawatts

On Sunday, September 22, 2019 at 3:15:44 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2019 1:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2019 11:03 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2019 11:38 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2019 04:53 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
It's not just litter, though.Â* We need an incentive to develop better
everything:Â* more biodegradable plastics (perhaps from plant sources),
fuels and lubricants, the whole ball of wax.


With bee populations in decline, the wax thing might be a problem.
Whale oil isn't politically correct anymore.

While I agree with you there also has to be a greater degree of
something. I'm at loss for an appropriate word.

https://www.tatermadebags.com/


From their web site:
The world uses over 300 million tons of plastics each year, most of
which ends up in landfills €“ and sometimes in oceans and other
waterways. The plastics market is complex, and bioplastics make up only
a tiny portion of the worlds plastics.

How much energy is in those 300 million tonsÂ* Most plastics are about
18,000 BTU per pound.Â* Instead of burying it, burn it to make
electricity.

Possible, but it's not as simple as it sounds. Set your foam coffee cup
on fire...Â* Pyrolytic gasification can work for some types of plastic.
That's basically the destructive distillation that has been used for
centuries. Others, like PVC, are nasty when they decompose, while some
like PETE give off oxygen on decomposition which blows the oxygen free
environment.



There are trash to energy plants that evidently can handle it. The one
near our town has been in operation about 20 years.

Going back before trash to energy, the town where I worked in the 70s
had an incinerator. They liked our EPS plastic trash as they used it in
a mix that would get even soggy trash to burn.

Quick Google search:
Waste to Energy plants in US
At the end of 2015, the United States had 71 waste-to-energy (WTE)
plants that generated electricity in 20 U.S. states, with a total
generating capacity of 2.3 gigawatts

It doesn't solve the problem that plastics are made from oil, which
someday will run out.

Cindy Hamilton

On 9/22/2019 4:32 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Sunday, September 22, 2019 at 3:15:44 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2019 1:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2019 11:03 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2019 11:38 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2019 04:53 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
It's not just litter, though.Â* We need an incentive to develop better
everything:Â* more biodegradable plastics (perhaps from plant sources),
fuels and lubricants, the whole ball of wax.


With bee populations in decline, the wax thing might be a problem.
Whale oil isn't politically correct anymore.

While I agree with you there also has to be a greater degree of
something. I'm at loss for an appropriate word.

https://www.tatermadebags.com/


From their web site:
The world uses over 300 million tons of plastics each year, most of
which ends up in landfills €“ and sometimes in oceans and other
waterways. The plastics market is complex, and bioplastics make up only
a tiny portion of the worlds plastics.

How much energy is in those 300 million tonsÂ* Most plastics are about
18,000 BTU per pound.Â* Instead of burying it, burn it to make
electricity.

Possible, but it's not as simple as it sounds. Set your foam coffee cup
on fire...Â* Pyrolytic gasification can work for some types of plastic.
That's basically the destructive distillation that has been used for
centuries. Others, like PVC, are nasty when they decompose, while some
like PETE give off oxygen on decomposition which blows the oxygen free
environment.



There are trash to energy plants that evidently can handle it. The one
near our town has been in operation about 20 years.

Going back before trash to energy, the town where I worked in the 70s
had an incinerator. They liked our EPS plastic trash as they used it in
a mix that would get even soggy trash to burn.

Quick Google search:
Waste to Energy plants in US
At the end of 2015, the United States had 71 waste-to-energy (WTE)
plants that generated electricity in 20 U.S. states, with a total
generating capacity of 2.3 gigawatts

It doesn't solve the problem that plastics are made from oil, which
someday will run out.

Cindy Hamilton


No, but is saves from extracting more to make electricity. It lessens
the need to dig holes and bury waste. Until we change to some other
form of packaging that uses no carbon is is a good stop gap measure.

Perhaps we can eliminate liquid detergent, liquid soap, liquid shampoo,
but meantime, plastic and glass are pretty much the options.

We can go to cardboard containers with a bag liner and that greatly
decreases the use of plastic but we still have trash to get rid of.

I still use plain old bar soap instead of some liquid soap that is
mostly water that is packaged in plastic and shipped long distances.
One way to start is to eliminate products like that. We could make
sizeable cuts in oil use quickly by changing some silly habits.

On Sun, 22 Sep 2019 09:38:21 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 09/22/2019 04:53 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
It's not just litter, though. We need an incentive to develop better
everything: more biodegradable plastics (perhaps from plant sources),
fuels and lubricants, the whole ball of wax.


With bee populations in decline, the wax thing might be a problem. Whale
oil isn't politically correct anymore.

While I agree with you there also has to be a greater degree of
something. I'm at loss for an appropriate word.

https://www.tatermadebags.com/

On the face of it, that seems like a great idea. If you look at the
whole cycle of polylactic acid production from seeds to end products
does the idea hold up? After the oil embargo there were attempts to
produce thermoset molding compounds from furfural to replace
phenol-formaldehyde resins. There was limited success.

In either case while limited production is feasible, where does the
biomass come from? Phenol can also be produced from oil derived from
junipers and pinyon pine. Is it time to clear cut thousand of square
miles of the southwest? If you want to ramp up polylactic acid
production do you divert potatoes from food to plastic bags? Tom's of
Maine started a project to use unmarketable potatoes to make
biodegradable packaging peanuts. That might work for one very small
company in potato country but does it scale? How much land would need to
be diverted to potato production? What crops would it displace?

E15 fuel is a good example. The tariff wars might make corn growers
uneasy but if you want to really make them howl talk about reducing the
mandated use of alcohol. What happens when the Ogallala Aquifer comes up
dry?


You last point may be more relevant than any other thing people worry
about. We are going to run out of water long before we run out of oil.
People always say we will just desalinate sea water. That probably
works for drinking water but that is a fraction of a percent of the
water we use. Agriculture with reclaimed sea water is just ridiculous.

On Sun, 22 Sep 2019 13:03:33 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 9/22/2019 11:38 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2019 04:53 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
It's not just litter, though.Â* We need an incentive to develop better
everything:Â* more biodegradable plastics (perhaps from plant sources),
fuels and lubricants, the whole ball of wax.


With bee populations in decline, the wax thing might be a problem. Whale
oil isn't politically correct anymore.

While I agree with you there also has to be a greater degree of
something. I'm at loss for an appropriate word.

https://www.tatermadebags.com/


From their web site:
The world uses over 300 million tons of plastics each year, most of
which ends up in landfills €“ and sometimes in oceans and other
waterways. The plastics market is complex, and bioplastics make up only
a tiny portion of the worlds plastics.

How much energy is in those 300 million tons Most plastics are about
18,000 BTU per pound. Instead of burying it, burn it to make electricity.

On the other hand if plastic lasts 10,000 years in a landfill, didn't
we just sequester all of that carbon, virtually for free?

On Sun, 22 Sep 2019 11:25:12 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 09/22/2019 11:03 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2019 11:38 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2019 04:53 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
It's not just litter, though. We need an incentive to develop better
everything: more biodegradable plastics (perhaps from plant sources),
fuels and lubricants, the whole ball of wax.


With bee populations in decline, the wax thing might be a problem.
Whale oil isn't politically correct anymore.

While I agree with you there also has to be a greater degree of
something. I'm at loss for an appropriate word.

https://www.tatermadebags.com/


From their web site:
The world uses over 300 million tons of plastics each year, most of
which ends up in landfills €“ and sometimes in oceans and other
waterways. The plastics market is complex, and bioplastics make up only
a tiny portion of the worlds plastics.

How much energy is in those 300 million tons Most plastics are about
18,000 BTU per pound. Instead of burying it, burn it to make electricity.

Possible, but it's not as simple as it sounds. Set your foam coffee cup
on fire... Pyrolytic gasification can work for some types of plastic.
That's basically the destructive distillation that has been used for
centuries. Others, like PVC, are nasty when they decompose, while some
like PETE give off oxygen on decomposition which blows the oxygen free
environment.


We have a WTE incinerator that seems to pass environmental muster so
it can be done.

On 09/22/2019 03:28 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I still use plain old bar soap instead of some liquid soap that is
mostly water that is packaged in plastic and shipped long distances. One
way to start is to eliminate products like that. We could make sizeable
cuts in oil use quickly by changing some silly habits.

Starting with shipping. I think it was in 'Small is Beautiful' where
Schumacher the irony of two trucks full of biscuits passing each other
as one carries biscuits (cookies) from A to B and vice versa. In the US
A and B are 3000 miles apart rather than the 100 miles between the
British cities.

During my trucking days one of the stranger conversations was when I
called my dispatcher and she told me She had a load of water going from
Phillipsburg MT to San Francisco. "water?" I said. "Bottled water,
silly.' she replied. Plastic bottles of course. So I dragged 44,000
pounds of plastic, cardboard, and water 1000 miles. Going over the
mountains I would have been lucky to get 6 miles per gallon, so let's
say 160 gallons of diesel.

Then there were the many trips bringing LA carpet to Georgia and Georgia
carpet to LA. I was paid by the miles and the more miles the better.

On 09/22/2019 04:54 PM, wrote:
We have a WTE incinerator that seems to pass environmental muster so
it can be done.

Greta Thunberg might not approve. Incinerating a ton of municipal waste
tends to produce a ton of carbon dioxide.

For some plastic waste incineration is not the most desirable approach.
Depolymerization and pyrolysis can produce something more useful than
heat, fly ash, and CO2.

On 9/22/2019 6:53 PM, wrote:


How much energy is in those 300 million tons Most plastics are about
18,000 BTU per pound. Instead of burying it, burn it to make electricity.

On the other hand if plastic lasts 10,000 years in a landfill, didn't
we just sequester all of that carbon, virtually for free?


We did, however we are still digging other carbon to burn to make
electricity.

On 9/22/2019 6:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2019 03:28 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I still use plain old bar soap instead of some liquid soap that is
mostly water that is packaged in plastic and shipped long distances. One
way to start is to eliminate products like that.Â* We could make sizeable
cuts in oil use quickly by changing some silly habits.

Starting with shipping. I think it was in 'Small is Beautiful' where
Schumacher the irony of two trucks full of biscuits passing each other
as one carries biscuits (cookies) from A to B and vice versa. In the US
A and B are 3000 miles apart rather than the 100 miles between the
British cities.

During my trucking days one of the stranger conversations was when I
called my dispatcher and she told me She had a load of water going from
Phillipsburg MT to San Francisco.Â* "water?" I said. "Bottled water,
silly.' she replied. Plastic bottles of course. So I dragged 44,000
pounds of plastic, cardboard, and water 1000 miles. Going over the
mountains I would have been lucky to get 6 miles per gallon, so let's
say 160 gallons of diesel.

Then there were the many trips bringing LA carpet to Georgia and Georgia
carpet to LA. I was paid by the miles and the more miles the better.


Yeah, we do a lot of stupid things like that. I'm not saying we should
eliminate bottled water because there are times it can save lives after
a disaster or a water supply is contaminated. OTOH, some people think
it is "better" and won't use good old spigot water even at home. Use a
filter if your water needs help.

We would often carry a couple of bottles on a long trip. I'd buy a case
every two years or so. On a normal day trip I fill an insulated SS
bottle that works great and has lasted for years so far. I fill it when
needed.

"rbowman" wrote in message

Greta Thunberg might not approve. Incinerating a ton of
municipal waste tends to produce a ton of carbon dioxide.

hmmm.... municipal waste is 100% CO2 ????

On Sun, 22 Sep 2019 19:46:55 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 9/22/2019 6:53 PM, wrote:


How much energy is in those 300 million tons Most plastics are about
18,000 BTU per pound. Instead of burying it, burn it to make electricity.

On the other hand if plastic lasts 10,000 years in a landfill, didn't
we just sequester all of that carbon, virtually for free?


We did, however we are still digging other carbon to burn to make
electricity.

The plastic is a by product of that fuel production tho. Carbon that
didn't get burned from the fossil fuel. If we ever reached the point
that energy production didn't provide that feedstock for plastic,
recycling it might actually make economic sense but right now we pay
to recycle plastic, unlike aluminum, copper or steel that has a cash
value.

On 09/22/2019 05:53 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
We would often carry a couple of bottles on a long trip. I'd buy a case
every two years or so. On a normal day trip I fill an insulated SS
bottle that works great and has lasted for years so far. I fill it when
needed.

When it's above freezing I have at least two gallons in the car. The
containers are recycled Arizona Tea gallon jugs. I'm not sure why but
they are heavy plastic. I even use them for waste motor oil storage.

They're filled from the hose spigot, genuine untreated Montana water.

On 09/22/2019 05:54 PM, Phil Kangas wrote:

"rbowman" wrote in message

Greta Thunberg might not approve. Incinerating a ton of municipal
waste tends to produce a ton of carbon dioxide.

hmmm.... municipal waste is 100% CO2 ????



No, but I'd bet it's pretty close to 100% organic material unless
someone is sneaking in a few aluminum cans. What do you get from the
combustion of an organic compound in the presence of oxygen?

CH4 + 2 O2 †’ CO2 + 2 H2O

Methane is a nice, simple hydrocarbon. It's been a long time since
chemistry but iirc the atomic weight of carbon is 12 and hydrogen is 1.
Throw in some oxygen with an atomic weight of 16 and what do you have?

Municipal waste isn't methane although it does tend to produce methane
as it ferments in landfills. Take something like cardboard which is 95%
or better organic, plus inorganics like the inks. Paper is a complex
mixture but much of it is cellulose, C6H10O5. Burn it and you get 6 CO2
and 5 H2O molecules.

Ain't no free lunch. Burn stuff and you get CO2. In the case of garbage
you get other good stuff so you might want to install a scrubber or two.

Modern incinerators are clean -- unless you consider CO2 a pollutant:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...arbon-dioxide/

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I'm not saying we should
eliminate bottled water because there are times it can save lives after
a disaster or a water supply is contaminated.

In the old days (not that long ago), disaster areas got tankers
full of water delivered to areas and people there would bring
their own containers to fill up what they could carry home.

These days, cases of bottled water is delivered to the same
areas.

On 09/23/2019 06:38 AM, Gary wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I'm not saying we should
eliminate bottled water because there are times it can save lives after
a disaster or a water supply is contaminated.

In the old days (not that long ago), disaster areas got tankers
full of water delivered to areas and people there would bring
their own containers to fill up what they could carry home.

These days, cases of bottled water is delivered to the same
areas.


Bottled water does make the logistics easier. Anything can carry bottled
water versus finding suitable tankers. In the case of Puerto Rico it
makes it easier to mislay the entire shipment:

https://nypost.com/2018/09/12/massiv...r-after-maria/