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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Fri, 06 Sep 2019 12:52:50 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

Knowing how tightly a bead seats, I'm surprised the bicycle tube can be
pulled out so easily.

Lots of "Ruglyde" on the rimand tire bead - without it the tube gets
a big "snake-bite"


Thanks for answering that question about HOW the bicycle tire tube can be
pulled out from under the bead, where I admit I had to look up "Ruglyde".
o AGS RG18 Gal Ruglyde Lubricant
https://www.amazon.com/AGS-RG18-Gal-Ruglyde-Lubricant/dp/B000CIJUGK
o RuGlyde Tire Mounting Lubricant - Rubber Based - Balkamp
https://www.vmcchineseparts.com/products/ruglyde-tire-mounting-lubricant-rubber-based-balkamp

Another potential reason the 16 inch bicycle tire tube might be so easily
removed is that the bead might have been 'cinched', but it's not yet 'set'.

I'm not sure of the words to describe it, but there are three stages
1. When the bead isn't holding air
2. When the bead is holding air - but barely - where it still can deflate
3. When the bead is firmly holding air - even if there is no air

The fact that there is a stage in the middle is perhaps why the tire tube
can be pulled out so easily.

I really like the idea of the bicycle tire tube since it's so simple, where
I love simple tools that are effective (for example, a tire iron is a
simple, and yet effective tool, as is the schrader valve core remover).

The one tool I had thought I didn't really need was the valve removal
prybar, where removing valves isn't all that hard using normal shop tools
like a knife and pliers - but - it is kind of sort of nice to have when
installing those rubber valves - where I prefer - as you do too - the metal
bolt on valves moving forward - so there will be less of a need for that
tool.

The two tools I haven't gotten yet - but should are
o The round bumpy inside tire buffer attachment to the drill for patchplugs
o A special steel wheel weight plier tool
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:27:19 -0000 (UTC), Mark Olson wrote:

No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively. Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/


Thank you for adding value to this discussion, as did Clare, and Amuzi,
where I was unfamiliar with this "split rim" concept until I read the
article you kindly referenced.

Apparently, from the safety alert at the bottom of your reference, these
"split rim" mountings are used mainly for LARGE commercial tires, is that
right?
https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts/2015/Large_Tyre_Inflation_Alert/

If so, I wonder what's different about large commercial tires?
o Obviously size is one thing - which could mean more energy
o The pressure per unit area "might" also be different
o Maybe mounting needs determined the reason for the split ring?

I don't know yet ... so I simply ask ... WHY ... they bother with split
rims for these huge commercial tires?

Is it mounting considerations?
Or some other reason that they use split rims for such huge tires?
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Fri, 06 Sep 2019 12:46:41 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

I'll bet it was a case of "hey - hold my beer and watch this!!!!"


It seems to me that in a commercial environment, workers wouldn't be
allowed to use that method since it has to be unapproved by OSHA (and they
had the bazooka clearly in the background, along with the strap).

Interestingly, I've been scanning the videos to see if most people set the
bead on or off the jig, where I wonder if putting the tire on a flat
surface helps with the explosive setting (by not allowing the air:fuel
mixture to escape out the bottom).

While I was searching for tips on setting the bead, I was amazed that this
guy, after a half dozen failed attempts, at time 114, was able to
explosively set the bead on passenger car tires that seemed to have about 4
or 5 inches of distance to cover - where I noticed he had the tire on a
pallet which allowed the air:fuel mixture to escape out the bottom before
it was ignited.
https://youtu.be/yHNDdOqdz1c?t=114

This guy put the wheel at an angle on a wooden block before exploding it
https://youtu.be/Xam5KDs5X1c?t=190
where I'm not sure WHY he put it on that wooden block.

In summary, I think the options for loose beads seems to be:
a. Use a second or third helper (to jiggle things into Goldilocks range)
b. Use a bazooka to blast in air (which seems to be what the pros use)
c. Use a bead ring of some sort (bicycle tube, garden hose, goop, whatever)

And, lastly....
d. Resort to flames. But only as a last resort which you shouldn't need.
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Wed, 04 Sep 2019 21:55:35 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

Worked good on old bias tires - not so good on belted and radial tires


What's interesting that used to work fine on belted tires was a static
balance in the olden days.

This is an interesting video using the dynamic balance machine, where, at
least on the first tire, they got perfect balance simply by aligning the
yellow dot to the valve stem like you suggested a while ago I do.
https://youtu.be/tmMZZEJMAmo?t=375

Some day I'll take my statically balanced tires to Costo for their $5
balance per tire - but - so far - I haven't needed to do dynamic balance
since the static balance doesn't result in noticeable vibration at speed.

My plan is to wait until I have an unbalanced tire at speed, and then I can
have all four checked for $20 in total, where it would be interesting to
see how much difference there is between static and dynamic balancing.
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:30:33 PM UTC-4, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:27:19 -0000 (UTC), Mark Olson wrote:

No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively. Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/


Thank you for adding value to this discussion, as did Clare, and Amuzi,
where I was unfamiliar with this "split rim" concept until I read the
article you kindly referenced.

Apparently, from the safety alert at the bottom of your reference, these
"split rim" mountings are used mainly for LARGE commercial tires, is that
right?
https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts/2015/Large_Tyre_Inflation_Alert/

If so, I wonder what's different about large commercial tires?
o Obviously size is one thing - which could mean more energy
o The pressure per unit area "might" also be different
o Maybe mounting needs determined the reason for the split ring?


Bingo! It would be near impossible to force a big honking truck tire
over the lip of a rim and more so without damaging it.







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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 17:30:27 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:27:19 -0000 (UTC), Mark Olson wrote:

No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively. Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/


Thank you for adding value to this discussion, as did Clare, and Amuzi,
where I was unfamiliar with this "split rim" concept until I read the
article you kindly referenced.

Apparently, from the safety alert at the bottom of your reference, these
"split rim" mountings are used mainly for LARGE commercial tires, is that
right?
https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts/2015/Large_Tyre_Inflation_Alert/

If so, I wonder what's different about large commercial tires?
o Obviously size is one thing - which could mean more energy
o The pressure per unit area "might" also be different
o Maybe mounting needs determined the reason for the split ring?

I don't know yet ... so I simply ask ... WHY ... they bother with split
rims for these huge commercial tires?

Is it mounting considerations?
Or some other reason that they use split rims for such huge tires?

Ease of mounting. No need to pry heavy tire over rim bead. Just
slide the old tire off and the new one on - after prying out the split
ring - then putting it back in.

My old 1928 Chevy sedan also used a split rim - as did many OLD
vehicles. They have moved predominantly to single piece roms now -
and even TUBELESS tires!!! -even on the big rigs.
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires thatjust wouldn't seal after the final bead?

Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On 5 Sep 2019 19:07:00 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

Technic 20 Litre Tyre Inflator 20L / 5 Gallon Bead Seater Air Blaster
Booster Tool Tyre
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07H36ZH..._9WvCDbM7SFSA6


Hi Tim+,

Thanks for the purposefully helpful advice, which mirror what Clare
suggested, and he's never been wrong (just look at the great stuff he found
out for how to properly choose brake pads by the numbers, for example).

Your advice (and that of Clare, Xeno, and others who have changed tires) is
what makes this newsgroup so rewarding for all concerned.

Searching for American sources, that bead blaster seems pretty common
https://www.amazon.com/tire-air-blaster/s?k=tire+air+blaster
With prices being roughly around $70 to about $115 US dollars, which is
fine for this type of tool, given each tire mounting and balancing sequence
(for five tires) costs about $100 which is done around once a year. pm
average. assuming you have a few vehicles in your household like most
Americans do.



Im sure that with a bit of ingenuity, an old gas bottle, a full bore
quarter turn ball valve and a few bits of pipe you could make yourself
one... ;-)


Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On 7/9/19 2:27 am, Mark Olson wrote:
In rec.autos.tech AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2019 12:52 AM, Xeno wrote:
On 6/9/19 3:46 pm, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:17:47 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That looks like a neat piece of kit! Simple and safe too.
Win win.

Even with the strap, and the bazooka in the background,
these guys opted for the flames!
https://youtu.be/lsnf3Zj0Vb8?t=214

With the flame you have little if any control.



What ever could go wrong?


https://ktla.com/2019/05/15/worker-d...f-los-angeles/


No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively.


Tyres have the potential to *create their own* flammable gas inside the
tyre. It is why those truck tyres explode and why an inert gas
(nitrogen) is used to fill them.


Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.


Changed plenty of them over the years - it's more about incompetent
operators than it is about the split rims.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/




--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On 7/9/19 2:41 am, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:16:40 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 6/9/19 12:57 am, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:36:27 +1000, Xeno wrote:

Yes to the first.
Tyre strap for the second.
One strap only around the middle of the tyre.

Hi Xeno,

Thanks for the vote on the tire straps, where you were instrumental in
helping me hone WHY almost all the tires on this mountain wear out on the
outside edge of the front tires before anything else!
https://i.postimg.cc/Hx2Fw0dK/mount03.jpg

On the topic of tire straps, my OP shows that I did try a 'rope' but it
broke after about only a dozen or so turns, where it wasn't doing anything
effective anyway.
https://i.postimg.cc/J4d9vdm0/mount55.jpg

In another post, ratchet straps are mentioned. They might work. I've
always used the proper tyre strap so never tried alternatives but
whatever works.

Also on the topic of ratchet straps, Clare posted a few videos of American
ingenuity at work with homemade bazooka air blasters, where both of those
videos used a strap but to no avail.


Yes, Clare's point is well made re straps and belted/steel belted
radials. The belt reduces the tread flexibility somewhat making the task
more difficult. That said, I have always managed to get tyres inflated
using the proper designed for purpose tyre strap.

This first video seems to use two ratchet straps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB95Eym98vs
And he used a block of wood UNDER the tire to hold the bottom bead.

While this video uses a steel strap which might be a tire strap?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcqKc1h7FFc

Is _that_ steel strap a "tire strap"?

Steel straps might be dangerous in case of breakage.

Had a friend recently have the issue. The first mistake he made was
retaining the valve core - bad move since you need a decent blast of
air.

Understood. About 40 tires ago (about a half dozen years ago or so), when I
first started mounting and balancing tires at home, I left the Shrader
valve in place - but now I habitually unscrew it before filling with a
simple custom air gun that I made by replacing the tip with the proper
fitting:
https://i.postimg.cc/WzZW9MvT/mount07.jpg

Second was he was using one of those cheap tyre inflaters on his
compressor that limits flow drastically.

Hmm.... I don't know what that is, but my compressor is a 220VAC 20-gallon
wheeled compressor with enough air to fill the tire if only I could seal it
without needing a helper (or two in this case, which was the first time in
two score tires that I needed a SECOND helper).


Standard tyre gauge/inflator of the type you get with cheapo compressors
and at cheapo automotive stores. Always too restrictive on air flow.

I told him to take it off and
blast it with the air hose plugged directly onto the valve.

Yup. That's EXACTLY what I do with this simple fitting.
https://i.postimg.cc/4yxSFpSp/mount57.jpg

Sometimes I rubber band the trigger so the air is always flowing.


In the case of my friend, I told him to use the air control valve on the
compressor in order to get a sufficiently large and *sudden* blast of air.

He was also
using 2 (two) tyre straps, each being over a bead. Bad move as that
forces the sidewalls inwards *away* from the beads. Just one around the
centre of the tread works perfectly and puts an outward pressure on the
bead helping to minimise air loss there.

I need to buy these tire straps... or make the bazooka Clare mentioned, but
while I have the same welding equipment everyone has, I really don't have
the skills necessary to fabricate the bazooka from scratch.

Bottom line; maximise air flow, minimise air loss.

Up until now, the one helper sufficed to push in the bead with me as I
filled the tire with air - but this set took two helpers.


I always inflate with the tyre flat on the ground. The rim should be in
roughly in the central position between tyre beads. Might need to
position the rim on a couple of pieces of wood to achieve this on some
tyres. I have sometimes found it prudent to start the bead on one side
onto the rim, usually the rear, then flip the tyre/rim over and the
downward force on the rim brings the upper bead close to, if not
touching, the upper rim. It can be a frustrating exercise sometimes but
I have never been forced to resort to extreme measures like explosive
gases.


I often found having the tire upright made it easier to inflate.
Always partly mount one bead first by hand to center the rim in thr
tire. Bouncing the tire a bit often helps get the final bead to set


Yes, that is true. Each case is different and needs assessing on its own
merits. The aim is to get each bead as close to, if not mounted on, the
rim on each side and - whatever works.

I just remembered in the last set, it was a bit difficult too, but I had
attributed it to the fact I left the tape closing the bead on during
storage for a few months.
https://i.postimg.cc/DwnjgJY3/mount08.jpg

It might simply be this set of tires is a bit "loose" which made sealing
the bead just hard enough to require a second helper.


In days of yore, I used to stretch the beads apart with a tyre spreader;

http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/d/l300...53731918_1.jpg

Not the same as the type I used but should be Ok. Just work around the
tyre spreading it apart and hope it retains some spread when released.
That used to work in the days of stiff tyre sidewalls but may be a tad
iffish in this era of limp radial sidewalls. If nothing else, it's a
handy tool for spreading tyres in order to check for damage to the inner
carcase.

Without either a tire strap or a helper, I don't think seating these
P227/75R15 light truck (SUV) tires can be easily done with just me and the
air compressor so I am going to NEED a tire strap (or that bazooka!).



--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On 7/9/19 2:59 am, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:22:05 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:45:47 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

What ever could go wrong?
https://ktla.com/2019/05/15/worker-d...f-los-angeles/


I looked to see WHY but the article doesn't say WHY the accident occurred.
"Authorities did not provide any additional information about the
incident which is being investigated by a number of agencies including
Cal/OSHA and the Los Angeles Port Police."

Since it occurred on MAY 15, 2019, we might be able to find something about
HOW it happened (e.g., were they using the flame method?).

This is one thing that's a problem with news, which is that they don't
bother to close the gap when they find out more, sometimes.

I searched for more information that was recent but haven't found it yet,
so we really don't know what happened.

It does seem like those BIG tires do kill workers though...
February 20, 2019
Worker Killed By Exploding Tire At John Wayne Airport
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2019/02/20/worker-killed-by-exploding-tire-at-john-wayne-airport/
"One worker was on top of the tire, and the other on the bottom, when it
exploded."

In both cases, I'd expect a report somewhere from Cal OSHA.

Here is a list of their main risks:
https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/shop-operations/training-resources/article/10628402/osha-releases-new-tire-training-resources

The old "split ring" rims were so dangerous it was illegal to
inflate/mount them without a cage - lots of guys just chained them but
I've seen them "jump the chain" - if you were within range it would
cut you in half !!

A chap in a haultruck workshop where I once worked once rode an
exploding rim up and over the roof beam of the workshop - and they were
tall enough to have the truck's dump tray fully up whilst within the
workshop. Surprisingly he survived but was horribly crippled.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)


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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On 7/9/19 3:30 am, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:27:19 -0000 (UTC), Mark Olson wrote:

No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively. Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/


Thank you for adding value to this discussion, as did Clare, and Amuzi,
where I was unfamiliar with this "split rim" concept until I read the
article you kindly referenced.

Apparently, from the safety alert at the bottom of your reference, these
"split rim" mountings are used mainly for LARGE commercial tires, is that
right?
https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts/2015/Large_Tyre_Inflation_Alert/

If so, I wonder what's different about large commercial tires?
o Obviously size is one thing - which could mean more energy
o The pressure per unit area "might" also be different
o Maybe mounting needs determined the reason for the split ring?

I don't know yet ... so I simply ask ... WHY ... they bother with split
rims for these huge commercial tires?


They are *huge*, to large and inflexible to work by hand. They also have
a *flat base rim* and not the well base rim you would be familiar with.
Think how well you would fare changing a tyre without that well in the rim.

Is it mounting considerations?
Or some other reason that they use split rims for such huge tires?

Yes and more.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On 7/9/19 4:09 am, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Wed, 04 Sep 2019 21:55:35 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

Worked good on old bias tires - not so good on belted and radial tires


What's interesting that used to work fine on belted tires was a static
balance in the olden days.


No it didn't. What used to be a saving grace was the narrow large
diameter tyres, that and the high friction inherent in king pin type
suspension systems. Suspension design also played a huge role in
precipitating the wheel shimmy that was initiated by out of balance
wheels. The first English Fords (Consuls, Zephyrs and Zodiacs) were
really bad on dynamic wheel balance exacerbated by their small 13"
wheels. They didn't have the bugs ironed out of the McPherson Strut at
that time.

This is an interesting video using the dynamic balance machine, where, at
least on the first tire, they got perfect balance simply by aligning the
yellow dot to the valve stem like you suggested a while ago I do.
https://youtu.be/tmMZZEJMAmo?t=375

Some day I'll take my statically balanced tires to Costo for their $5
balance per tire - but - so far - I haven't needed to do dynamic balance
since the static balance doesn't result in noticeable vibration at speed.

My plan is to wait until I have an unbalanced tire at speed, and then I can
have all four checked for $20 in total, where it would be interesting to
see how much difference there is between static and dynamic balancing.

Static balancing can, at best, reduce dynamic unbalance by 50%. That
*may* be sufficient to prevent initiation of steering shimmy - or it may
not. Luck of the draw.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On 7/9/19 4:13 am, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:30:33 PM UTC-4, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:27:19 -0000 (UTC), Mark Olson wrote:

No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively. Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/


Thank you for adding value to this discussion, as did Clare, and Amuzi,
where I was unfamiliar with this "split rim" concept until I read the
article you kindly referenced.

Apparently, from the safety alert at the bottom of your reference, these
"split rim" mountings are used mainly for LARGE commercial tires, is that
right?
https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts/2015/Large_Tyre_Inflation_Alert/

If so, I wonder what's different about large commercial tires?
o Obviously size is one thing - which could mean more energy
o The pressure per unit area "might" also be different
o Maybe mounting needs determined the reason for the split ring?


Bingo! It would be near impossible to force a big honking truck tire
over the lip of a rim and more so without damaging it.

What about large farm tractor tyres? They do not use a split rim,
instead use a well base, at least on all those I have changed in sizes
up to 6 or 7 feet in overall diameter. Done the changes with nothing
more than bead breaker, tyre levers and a rubber mallet. It's filling
them with water that's the real pain in the arse.


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 08:55:40 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 2:27 am, Mark Olson wrote:
In rec.autos.tech AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2019 12:52 AM, Xeno wrote:
On 6/9/19 3:46 pm, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:17:47 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That looks like a neat piece of kit! Simple and safe too.
Win win.

Even with the strap, and the bazooka in the background,
these guys opted for the flames!
https://youtu.be/lsnf3Zj0Vb8?t=214

With the flame you have little if any control.



What ever could go wrong?


https://ktla.com/2019/05/15/worker-d...f-los-angeles/


No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively.


Tyres have the potential to *create their own* flammable gas inside the
tyre. It is why those truck tyres explode and why an inert gas
(nitrogen) is used to fill them.


No - neither statement is true. Tire "explosions" on the road do NOT
include deflagration - any fire is due to overheated rubber bursting
into flame long after it has lost inflation.


Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.


Changed plenty of them over the years - it's more about incompetent
operators than it is about the split rims.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/


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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 08:55:40 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 2:27 am, Mark Olson wrote:
In rec.autos.tech AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2019 12:52 AM, Xeno wrote:
On 6/9/19 3:46 pm, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:17:47 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That looks like a neat piece of kit! Simple and safe too.
Win win.

Even with the strap, and the bazooka in the background,
these guys opted for the flames!
https://youtu.be/lsnf3Zj0Vb8?t=214

With the flame you have little if any control.



What ever could go wrong?


https://ktla.com/2019/05/15/worker-d...f-los-angeles/


No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively.


Tyres have the potential to *create their own* flammable gas inside the
tyre. It is why those truck tyres explode and why an inert gas
(nitrogen) is used to fill them.


Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.


Changed plenty of them over the years - it's more about incompetent
operators than it is about the split rims.


Incompetent operators using - wait for it - "improper technique" -
and there have been many "competent" operators who have died oe been
injured - and many more saved by the cage - which is whythe cage is
MANDATORY

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/




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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:02:04 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 2:59 am, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:22:05 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:45:47 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

What ever could go wrong?
https://ktla.com/2019/05/15/worker-d...f-los-angeles/

I looked to see WHY but the article doesn't say WHY the accident occurred.
"Authorities did not provide any additional information about the
incident which is being investigated by a number of agencies including
Cal/OSHA and the Los Angeles Port Police."

Since it occurred on MAY 15, 2019, we might be able to find something about
HOW it happened (e.g., were they using the flame method?).

This is one thing that's a problem with news, which is that they don't
bother to close the gap when they find out more, sometimes.

I searched for more information that was recent but haven't found it yet,
so we really don't know what happened.

It does seem like those BIG tires do kill workers though...
February 20, 2019
Worker Killed By Exploding Tire At John Wayne Airport
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2019/02/20/worker-killed-by-exploding-tire-at-john-wayne-airport/
"One worker was on top of the tire, and the other on the bottom, when it
exploded."

In both cases, I'd expect a report somewhere from Cal OSHA.

Here is a list of their main risks:
https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/shop-operations/training-resources/article/10628402/osha-releases-new-tire-training-resources

The old "split ring" rims were so dangerous it was illegal to
inflate/mount them without a cage - lots of guys just chained them but
I've seen them "jump the chain" - if you were within range it would
cut you in half !!

A chap in a haultruck workshop where I once worked once rode an
exploding rim up and over the roof beam of the workshop - and they were
tall enough to have the truck's dump tray fully up whilst within the
workshop. Surprisingly he survived but was horribly crippled.

I've seen cages badly damaged too - but have never seen or heard of
anyone being maimed or killed by a tire properly caged - or of one
"getting out".
  #57   Report Post  
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:16:04 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 4:13 am, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:30:33 PM UTC-4, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:27:19 -0000 (UTC), Mark Olson wrote:

No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively. Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/

Thank you for adding value to this discussion, as did Clare, and Amuzi,
where I was unfamiliar with this "split rim" concept until I read the
article you kindly referenced.

Apparently, from the safety alert at the bottom of your reference, these
"split rim" mountings are used mainly for LARGE commercial tires, is that
right?
https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts/2015/Large_Tyre_Inflation_Alert/

If so, I wonder what's different about large commercial tires?
o Obviously size is one thing - which could mean more energy
o The pressure per unit area "might" also be different
o Maybe mounting needs determined the reason for the split ring?


Bingo! It would be near impossible to force a big honking truck tire
over the lip of a rim and more so without damaging it.

What about large farm tractor tyres? They do not use a split rim,
instead use a well base, at least on all those I have changed in sizes
up to 6 or 7 feet in overall diameter. Done the changes with nothing
more than bead breaker, tyre levers and a rubber mallet. It's filling
them with water that's the real pain in the arse.

A tractor tire is pretty pliable compared to heavy equipment tires
(or aircraft tires - which often use "two piece" rims)
  #58   Report Post  
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On 7/9/19 12:19 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:02:04 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 2:59 am, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:22:05 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:45:47 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

What ever could go wrong?
https://ktla.com/2019/05/15/worker-d...f-los-angeles/

I looked to see WHY but the article doesn't say WHY the accident occurred.
"Authorities did not provide any additional information about the
incident which is being investigated by a number of agencies including
Cal/OSHA and the Los Angeles Port Police."

Since it occurred on MAY 15, 2019, we might be able to find something about
HOW it happened (e.g., were they using the flame method?).

This is one thing that's a problem with news, which is that they don't
bother to close the gap when they find out more, sometimes.

I searched for more information that was recent but haven't found it yet,
so we really don't know what happened.

It does seem like those BIG tires do kill workers though...
February 20, 2019
Worker Killed By Exploding Tire At John Wayne Airport
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2019/02/20/worker-killed-by-exploding-tire-at-john-wayne-airport/
"One worker was on top of the tire, and the other on the bottom, when it
exploded."

In both cases, I'd expect a report somewhere from Cal OSHA.

Here is a list of their main risks:
https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/shop-operations/training-resources/article/10628402/osha-releases-new-tire-training-resources
The old "split ring" rims were so dangerous it was illegal to
inflate/mount them without a cage - lots of guys just chained them but
I've seen them "jump the chain" - if you were within range it would
cut you in half !!

A chap in a haultruck workshop where I once worked once rode an
exploding rim up and over the roof beam of the workshop - and they were
tall enough to have the truck's dump tray fully up whilst within the
workshop. Surprisingly he survived but was horribly crippled.


I've seen cages badly damaged too - but have never seen or heard of
anyone being maimed or killed by a tire properly caged - or of one
"getting out".

Work practices at that place were "novel"to say the least. I wasn't
working in the haultruck workshop at the time, I had my own little
workshop devoted to light vehicles across the way. Did work in the
haultruck workshop on my next stint there some years later however and
work practices were remarkably improved, funny that!

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)
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Posts: 578
Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On 7/9/19 12:21 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:16:04 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 4:13 am, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:30:33 PM UTC-4, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:27:19 -0000 (UTC), Mark Olson wrote:

No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively. Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/

Thank you for adding value to this discussion, as did Clare, and Amuzi,
where I was unfamiliar with this "split rim" concept until I read the
article you kindly referenced.

Apparently, from the safety alert at the bottom of your reference, these
"split rim" mountings are used mainly for LARGE commercial tires, is that
right?
https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts/2015/Large_Tyre_Inflation_Alert/

If so, I wonder what's different about large commercial tires?
o Obviously size is one thing - which could mean more energy
o The pressure per unit area "might" also be different
o Maybe mounting needs determined the reason for the split ring?

Bingo! It would be near impossible to force a big honking truck tire
over the lip of a rim and more so without damaging it.

What about large farm tractor tyres? They do not use a split rim,
instead use a well base, at least on all those I have changed in sizes
up to 6 or 7 feet in overall diameter. Done the changes with nothing
more than bead breaker, tyre levers and a rubber mallet. It's filling
them with water that's the real pain in the arse.

A tractor tire is pretty pliable compared to heavy equipment tires
(or aircraft tires - which often use "two piece" rims)

Yes, they are pliable, no argument there! ;-) Damn bulky though.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)
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Posts: 578
Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On 7/9/19 12:14 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 08:55:40 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 2:27 am, Mark Olson wrote:
In rec.autos.tech AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2019 12:52 AM, Xeno wrote:
On 6/9/19 3:46 pm, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:17:47 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That looks like a neat piece of kit! Simple and safe too.
Win win.

Even with the strap, and the bazooka in the background,
these guys opted for the flames!
https://youtu.be/lsnf3Zj0Vb8?t=214

With the flame you have little if any control.



What ever could go wrong?


https://ktla.com/2019/05/15/worker-d...f-los-angeles/

No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively.


Tyres have the potential to *create their own* flammable gas inside the
tyre. It is why those truck tyres explode and why an inert gas
(nitrogen) is used to fill them.


No - neither statement is true. Tire "explosions" on the road do NOT
include deflagration - any fire is due to overheated rubber bursting
into flame long after it has lost inflation.


They do on haul trucks. That's why the large mining companies here have
a tyre company under contract to do all tyre maintenance work.

This company has a large presence in this country

https://otraco.com/otr-tyre-management




Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.


Changed plenty of them over the years - it's more about incompetent
operators than it is about the split rims.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/




--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)


  #61   Report Post  
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:19:11 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 12:14 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 08:55:40 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 2:27 am, Mark Olson wrote:
In rec.autos.tech AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2019 12:52 AM, Xeno wrote:
On 6/9/19 3:46 pm, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:17:47 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That looks like a neat piece of kit! Simple and safe too.
Win win.

Even with the strap, and the bazooka in the background,
these guys opted for the flames!
https://youtu.be/lsnf3Zj0Vb8?t=214

With the flame you have little if any control.



What ever could go wrong?


https://ktla.com/2019/05/15/worker-d...f-los-angeles/

No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively.

Tyres have the potential to *create their own* flammable gas inside the
tyre. It is why those truck tyres explode and why an inert gas
(nitrogen) is used to fill them.


No - neither statement is true. Tire "explosions" on the road do NOT
include deflagration - any fire is due to overheated rubber bursting
into flame long after it has lost inflation.


They do on haul trucks. That's why the large mining companies here have
a tyre company under contract to do all tyre maintenance work.


OK - you are talking Pyrolysis - the same process used to form "wood
gas" - which again ONLY happens on an OVERHEATED tire - due to either
extreme overlood or low tire pressure (same thing, actually- as a
tire's load rating decreases with lower pressure) The tire must reach
about 200C - or roughly 400F for pyrolysis to occur. And nitrogen
fill will not prevent a pyrolysis explosion because you can never
keep ALL oxygen out of the tire. It may reduce the risk, but the
PRIMARY reason for nitrogen fill is pressure regulation - Nitrogen
molecules are larger and less likely to migrate out of the tire - thus
holding pressure better - and since loss of pressure is a MAIN cause
of pyrolysis, it WILL reduce pyrolysis problems.A properly inflated
and loaded tire will NEVER reach pyrolysis temperatures and one of
Otraco's main jobs is monitoring tire inflation and temperature.


This company has a large presence in this country

https://otraco.com/otr-tyre-management


Yea, what a "downer"!!!




Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.

Changed plenty of them over the years - it's more about incompetent
operators than it is about the split rims.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/


  #62   Report Post  
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Posts: 578
Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On 7/9/19 3:28 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:19:11 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 12:14 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 08:55:40 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 2:27 am, Mark Olson wrote:
In rec.autos.tech AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2019 12:52 AM, Xeno wrote:
On 6/9/19 3:46 pm, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:17:47 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That looks like a neat piece of kit! Simple and safe too.
Win win.

Even with the strap, and the bazooka in the background,
these guys opted for the flames!
https://youtu.be/lsnf3Zj0Vb8?t=214

With the flame you have little if any control.



What ever could go wrong?


https://ktla.com/2019/05/15/worker-d...f-los-angeles/

No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively.

Tyres have the potential to *create their own* flammable gas inside the
tyre. It is why those truck tyres explode and why an inert gas
(nitrogen) is used to fill them.

No - neither statement is true. Tire "explosions" on the road do NOT
include deflagration - any fire is due to overheated rubber bursting
into flame long after it has lost inflation.


They do on haul trucks. That's why the large mining companies here have
a tyre company under contract to do all tyre maintenance work.


OK - you are talking Pyrolysis - the same process used to form "wood
gas" - which again ONLY happens on an OVERHEATED tire - due to either
extreme overlood or low tire pressure (same thing, actually- as a
tire's load rating decreases with lower pressure) The tire must reach
about 200C - or roughly 400F for pyrolysis to occur. And nitrogen
fill will not prevent a pyrolysis explosion because you can never
keep ALL oxygen out of the tire. It may reduce the risk, but the
PRIMARY reason for nitrogen fill is pressure regulation - Nitrogen
molecules are larger and less likely to migrate out of the tire - thus
holding pressure better - and since loss of pressure is a MAIN cause
of pyrolysis, it WILL reduce pyrolysis problems.A properly inflated
and loaded tire will NEVER reach pyrolysis temperatures and one of
Otraco's main jobs is monitoring tire inflation and temperature.

Their presence made life a lot easier for the haultruck fitters.

This company has a large presence in this country

https://otraco.com/otr-tyre-management


Yea, what a "downer"!!!


Indeed! LOL




Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with fire.

Changed plenty of them over the years - it's more about incompetent
operators than it is about the split rims.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts...it_Rim_Wheels/




--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)
  #63   Report Post  
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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that justwouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 1:28:31 AM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:19:11 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 12:14 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 08:55:40 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 7/9/19 2:27 am, Mark Olson wrote:
In rec.autos.tech AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2019 12:52 AM, Xeno wrote:
On 6/9/19 3:46 pm, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:17:47 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That looks like a neat piece of kit! Simple and safe too.
Win win.

Even with the strap, and the bazooka in the background,
these guys opted for the flames!
https://youtu.be/lsnf3Zj0Vb8?t=214

With the flame you have little if any control.



What ever could go wrong?


https://ktla.com/2019/05/15/worker-d...f-los-angeles/

No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively.

Tyres have the potential to *create their own* flammable gas inside the
tyre. It is why those truck tyres explode and why an inert gas
(nitrogen) is used to fill them.

No - neither statement is true. Tire "explosions" on the road do NOT
include deflagration - any fire is due to overheated rubber bursting
into flame long after it has lost inflation.


They do on haul trucks. That's why the large mining companies here have
a tyre company under contract to do all tyre maintenance work.


OK - you are talking Pyrolysis - the same process used to form "wood
gas" - which again ONLY happens on an OVERHEATED tire - due to either
extreme overlood or low tire pressure (same thing, actually- as a
tire's load rating decreases with lower pressure) The tire must reach
about 200C - or roughly 400F for pyrolysis to occur. And nitrogen
fill will not prevent a pyrolysis explosion because you can never
keep ALL oxygen out of the tire.


You don't have to keep all oxygen out of any environment like that
to make it so that it can't explode. Below a certain oxygen fuel
mix, it can't explode. It's like trying to fire an engine cylinder
with a fuel/air mix that is too far off.




It may reduce the risk, but the
PRIMARY reason for nitrogen fill is pressure regulation - Nitrogen
molecules are larger and less likely to migrate out of the tire - thus
holding pressure better


Actually I think the primary reason for using nitrogen in most applications,
eg car/SUV tires is to put $$$ into the tire installers pockets.
Most places charge extra, many ridiculous amounts.



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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

Xeno wrote in
:

On 7/9/19 2:27 am, Mark Olson wrote:
In rec.autos.tech AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2019 12:52 AM, Xeno wrote:
On 6/9/19 3:46 pm, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:17:47 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That looks like a neat piece of kit! Simple and safe too.
Win win.

Even with the strap, and the bazooka in the background,
these guys opted for the flames!
https://youtu.be/lsnf3Zj0Vb8?t=214

With the flame you have little if any control.



What ever could go wrong?


https://ktla.com/2019/05/15/worker-d...lized-after-ti
re-explodes-at-port-of-los-angeles/


No mention in that article of using a flammable liquid or vapor to
seat the bead explosively.


Tyres have the potential to *create their own* flammable gas inside
the tyre. It is why those truck tyres explode and why an inert gas
(nitrogen) is used to fill them.


so this part is not true, truck tires usually blow from underinflation so
they get hot and fail,(read tire has a leak) or the carcus has a
mechanical failure. they run hot and under high load so failure is not to
be considered abnormal, but low considering the amount of total miles run
by trucks, and also retreads from the not so quality retreaders using
poor carcuses is a factor. KB


Plenty of stories about exploding tires on
split rims from improper technique which have nothing to do with
fire.


Changed plenty of them over the years - it's more about incompetent
operators than it is about the split rims.

This is why large truck tires on split rims are inflated in safety
cages.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts..._-_Split_Rim_W
heels/





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Default Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 08:55:40 +1000, Xeno wrote:

Changed plenty of them over the years - it's more about incompetent
operators than it is about the split rims.


Luckily these are normal rims for passenger tires.

BTW, while a half dozen tools & techniques were proposed, it seems the best
is the "bazooka", where here's one guy showing how he crafted one from a
spare "truck" air tank.
https://youtu.be/PkqNIG5IZm4?t=522
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