An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

trader_4 wrote:

IMO, for many of these kids today, they would be better off starting a
small business.

I was pretty surprised to see an HVAC-related school on the list
of schools with the highest default rates (in the article that
was shared in an earlier). I supposed that a degree in HVAC set
one up pretty well.


Parents should consider that, instead of automatically
dumping $200K into a college education.

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

On 8/27/2019 12:59 PM, Bill wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

IMO, for many of these kids today, they would be better off starting a
small business.

I was pretty surprised to see an HVAC-related school on the list of
schools with the highest default rates (in the article that was shared
in an earlier). I supposed that a degree in HVAC set one up pretty well.
....

I didn't see the particular article, but likely that is one of the scam
outfits that does exist solely for the federal loan provided tuition and
doesn't do a lick of good in actually teaching the trade so most are
unqualified when they finish.

The HVAC program at the local CC does quite well by the student--there
are employers waiting for everybody we graduate -- but we don't graduate
them unless they qualify to do so.

--

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 13:59:10 -0400, Bill wrote:

trader_4 wrote:

IMO, for many of these kids today, they would be better off starting a
small business.

I was pretty surprised to see an HVAC-related school on the list
of schools with the highest default rates (in the article that
was shared in an earlier). I supposed that a degree in HVAC set
one up pretty well.


I imagine a "degree" in HVAC is not as valuable as experience in HVAC
and if this was mostly classroom work, it might be pretty useless.

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

On 8/27/19 1:59 PM, Bill wrote:
I was pretty surprised to see an HVAC-related school on the list of schools with the highest default rates (in the article that was shared in an earlier). I supposed that a degree in HVAC set one up pretty well.


Yup, swap out the bulging capacitor and add some gas to the leaky condenser and pocket a quick $500.

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

On 8/27/2019 2:13 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/27/2019 12:59 PM, Bill wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

IMO, for many of these kids today, they would be better off starting a
small business.

I was pretty surprised to see an HVAC-related school on the list of
schools with the highest default rates (in the article that was shared
in an earlier). I supposed that a degree in HVAC set one up pretty well.
...

I didn't see the particular article, but likely that is one of the scam
outfits that does exist solely for the federal loan provided tuition and
doesn't do a lick of good in actually teaching the trade so most are
unqualified when they finish.

The HVAC program at the local CC does quite well by the student--there
are employers waiting for everybody we graduate -- but we don't graduate
them unless they qualify to do so.

--

It is also a pretty good career too. You can make more than a lot of
degree holders. I know a couple of guys into 6 figures.

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

On 8/27/2019 3:58 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/27/2019 2:13 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/27/2019 12:59 PM, Bill wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

IMO, for many of these kids today, they would be better off starting a
small business.

I was pretty surprised to see an HVAC-related school on the list of
schools with the highest default rates (in the article that was
shared in an earlier). I supposed that a degree in HVAC set one up
pretty well.
...

I didn't see the particular article, but likely that is one of the
scam outfits that does exist solely for the federal loan provided
tuition and doesn't do a lick of good in actually teaching the trade
so most are unqualified when they finish.

The HVAC program at the local CC does quite well by the student--there
are employers waiting for everybody we graduate -- but we don't
graduate them unless they qualify to do so.

It is also a pretty good career too.Â* You can make more than a lot of
degree holders. I know a couple of guys into 6 figures.

And, of course, quite a few of these end up starting their own
businesses either as one-man repairmen or, in the case of at least one,
has grown into one of the largest outfits in the region with over 100
technicians in seven permanent locations while have residents in some 20
other smaller places around the region. They're doing quite well
starting with two brothers.

A welding tech grad created a new endowment just a couple years ago in
the multiple six-figures range that might end up at seven before he's done.

A good tech degree/certificate is indeed a very good career path for
those not interested in formal four-year degrees. But, it needs be a
good program and the student has to put in the work as well to make it a
sure thing.

--

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 16:58:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/27/2019 2:13 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/27/2019 12:59 PM, Bill wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

IMO, for many of these kids today, they would be better off starting a
small business.

I was pretty surprised to see an HVAC-related school on the list of
schools with the highest default rates (in the article that was shared
in an earlier). I supposed that a degree in HVAC set one up pretty well.
...

I didn't see the particular article, but likely that is one of the scam
outfits that does exist solely for the federal loan provided tuition and
doesn't do a lick of good in actually teaching the trade so most are
unqualified when they finish.

The HVAC program at the local CC does quite well by the student--there
are employers waiting for everybody we graduate -- but we don't graduate
them unless they qualify to do so.

--

It is also a pretty good career too. You can make more than a lot of
degree holders. I know a couple of guys into 6 figures.
The trades are not for everyone - but for those who are a good fit,
they can do VERY well.

Private trade schools and charter schools are often just big scams -
the "official" community colleges and polytechnics have generally good
teachers and turn out qualified graduates.

Apprenticeship programs like we have in Ontario are really good
options for the right students. I even had an honours phisics grad
sign on as an apprentice mechanic. He just retired from the position
of head of the technical department at a local secondary school

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 18:52:06 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/27/2019 3:58 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/27/2019 2:13 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/27/2019 12:59 PM, Bill wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

IMO, for many of these kids today, they would be better off starting a
small business.

I was pretty surprised to see an HVAC-related school on the list of
schools with the highest default rates (in the article that was
shared in an earlier). I supposed that a degree in HVAC set one up
pretty well.
...

I didn't see the particular article, but likely that is one of the
scam outfits that does exist solely for the federal loan provided
tuition and doesn't do a lick of good in actually teaching the trade
so most are unqualified when they finish.

The HVAC program at the local CC does quite well by the student--there
are employers waiting for everybody we graduate -- but we don't
graduate them unless they qualify to do so.

It is also a pretty good career too.* You can make more than a lot of
degree holders. I know a couple of guys into 6 figures.

And, of course, quite a few of these end up starting their own
businesses either as one-man repairmen or, in the case of at least one,
has grown into one of the largest outfits in the region with over 100
technicians in seven permanent locations while have residents in some 20
other smaller places around the region. They're doing quite well
starting with two brothers.

A welding tech grad created a new endowment just a couple years ago in
the multiple six-figures range that might end up at seven before he's done.

A good tech degree/certificate is indeed a very good career path for
those not interested in formal four-year degrees. But, it needs be a
good program and the student has to put in the work as well to make it a
sure thing.
And it needs to be a "good fit". Not everyone can be a mechanic - or
a plumber, or a HVAC teck, or an electrician.

For those who CAN - it can be VERY GOOD.

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 2:13:33 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/27/2019 12:59 PM, Bill wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

IMO, for many of these kids today, they would be better off starting a
small business.

I was pretty surprised to see an HVAC-related school on the list of
schools with the highest default rates (in the article that was shared
in an earlier). I supposed that a degree in HVAC set one up pretty well..
...

I didn't see the particular article, but likely that is one of the scam
outfits that does exist solely for the federal loan provided tuition and
doesn't do a lick of good in actually teaching the trade so most are
unqualified when they finish.

The HVAC program at the local CC does quite well by the student--there
are employers waiting for everybody we graduate -- but we don't graduate
them unless they qualify to do so.

--

Also does the fact that graduates of a trade school are defaulting really mean that they are failing financially due to being unemoyable or are many defaults because they spend too much money on things that they can do without and bankruptcy has become more normal and acceptable?

I have a friend who didn't go to college, worked jobs ranging from supermarket warehouse to inside sales. Late 40s he got the idea to go to trade school to become a networking tech. It took a couple of months and $12k. He asked me what I thought. I didn't tell him not to do it, but I told him it probably wouldn't be easy to find a job, with a lot of competition from 20 year olds. He went ahead and did it. When he was done, he went on a few interviews and found out that he was competing against those 20 year olds and starting pay wasn't even $20k,half what he was used to making. The fact that he was obese certainly did not help. So, he gave up. IMO, that was predictable. A hiring manager figures that a 20 year old living at home will be happy with 20k,enthusiastic, they can give raises, he will likely stick around for a while. The guy pushing 50, used to making twice that, they figure he's not going to be happy and will take another better paying job, when he finds one. Maybe he could have found a job if he kept trying, but he called it quits after just a few interviews. It gets tough at that age to find a good job even when not trying to switch careers.

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

In article ,
says...

Private trade schools and charter schools are often just big scams -
the "official" community colleges and polytechnics have generally good
teachers and turn out qualified graduates.




It depends on the school. A local 'offical ' community college was much
different. A co worker taught for several years at one at night. He is
very good at teaching.

One year he was teaching a 2nd course in electrical. The students ere
grown men that their companies sent them there for classes. He found
out that they had just been passed through the first part and did not
know much. He had to fail about half of them. He was called in by the
head of the college and said that his services were no longer needed.

Seems that the college was just after the money from the local
businesses and all the students 'had to pass with a C or better'.

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Private trade schools and charter schools are often just big scams -
the "official" community colleges and polytechnics have generally good
teachers and turn out qualified graduates.




It depends on the school. A local 'offical ' community college was much
different. A co worker taught for several years at one at night. He is
very good at teaching.

One year he was teaching a 2nd course in electrical. The students ere
grown men that their companies sent them there for classes. He found
out that they had just been passed through the first part and did not
know much. He had to fail about half of them. He was called in by the
head of the college and said that his services were no longer needed.

Seems that the college was just after the money from the local
businesses and all the students 'had to pass with a C or better'.

Private colleges in particular work hard to make certain that
students are "successful". Big state schools are a little more
"callous". Community colleges generally attract a much less
"traditional" group of students, many of them out of high school
for many years. A department chair is likely to say that if the
students aren't being successful it's the teacher's fault. Surely
the failing students will say it's the teacher's fault. No
college likes to lose students. Graduate schools expect to lose
some. There's no place for ineptitude on the part of the students
or the teachers. The "bottom line analysis" is very often done in
terms of numbers, since that's the easiest way.

Brick and mortar schools are quite concerned about the upcoming
ones on the Internet. They are quite concerned with "staying
relevant". Loneliest place on most campuses these days--the
library. Little joke: What's a "library"?

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

On 8/28/2019 12:44 PM, Bill wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Private trade schools and charter schools are often just big scams -
the "official" community colleges and polytechnics have generally good
teachers and turn out qualified graduates.




It depends on the school.Â* A local 'offical ' community college was much
different.Â* A co worker taught for several years at one at night.Â* He is
very good at teaching.

One year he was teaching a 2nd course in electrical.Â* The students ere
grown men that their companies sent them there for classes.Â* He found
out that they had just been passed through the first part and did not
know much.Â* He had to fail about half of them.Â* He was called in by the
head of the college and said that his services were no longer needed.

Seems that the college was just after the money from the local
businesses and all the students 'had to pass with a C or better'.

Private colleges in particular work hard to make certain that students
are "successful".Â* Big state schools are a little more "callous".
Community colleges generally attract a much less "traditional" group of
students, many of them out of high school for many years. A department
chair is likely to say that if the students aren't being successful it's
the teacher's fault. Surely the failing students will say it's the
teacher's fault. No college likes to lose students. Graduate schools
expect to lose some. There's no place for ineptitude on the part of the
students or the teachers. The "bottom line analysis" is very often done
in terms of numbers, since that's the easiest way.

Brick and mortar schools are quite concerned about the upcoming ones on
the Internet.Â* They are quite concerned with "staying relevant".
Loneliest place on most campuses these days--the library.Â* Little joke:
What's a "library"?


Same thing happened to a classmate of mine at a community college
teaching civil engineering. I was talking to a a student at U of Del
the other day and she said they are still tough.

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

Frank wrote:
On 8/28/2019 12:44 PM, Bill wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Private trade schools and charter schools are often just big
scams -
the "official" community colleges and polytechnics have
generally good
teachers and turn out qualified graduates.




It depends on the school.Â* A local 'offical ' community
college was much
different.Â* A co worker taught for several years at one at
night.Â* He is
very good at teaching.

One year he was teaching a 2nd course in electrical.Â* The
students ere
grown men that their companies sent them there for classes.
He found
out that they had just been passed through the first part and
did not
know much.Â* He had to fail about half of them.Â* He was called
in by the
head of the college and said that his services were no longer
needed.

Seems that the college was just after the money from the local
businesses and all the students 'had to pass with a C or better'.

Private colleges in particular work hard to make certain that
students are "successful".Â* Big state schools are a little more
"callous". Community colleges generally attract a much less
"traditional" group of students, many of them out of high
school for many years. A department chair is likely to say that
if the students aren't being successful it's the teacher's
fault. Surely the failing students will say it's the teacher's
fault. No college likes to lose students. Graduate schools
expect to lose some. There's no place for ineptitude on the
part of the students or the teachers. The "bottom line
analysis" is very often done in terms of numbers, since that's
the easiest way.

Brick and mortar schools are quite concerned about the upcoming
ones on the Internet.Â* They are quite concerned with "staying
relevant". Loneliest place on most campuses these days--the
library.Â* Little joke: What's a "library"?


Same thing happened to a classmate of mine at a community college
teaching civil engineering.Â* I was talking to a a student at U of
Del the other day and she said they are still tough.

I think engineering courses can afford to be tougher since the
students are tougher, and they tend to be better prepared--and
they didn't choose engineering as a major because they were
looking for the path of least resistance.

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

On 8/28/2019 3:07 PM, Bill wrote:
Frank wrote:
On 8/28/2019 12:44 PM, Bill wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Private trade schools and charter schools are often just big scams -
the "official" community colleges and polytechnics have generally good
teachers and turn out qualified graduates.




It depends on the school.Â* A local 'offical ' community college was
much
different.Â* A co worker taught for several years at one at night.
He is
very good at teaching.

One year he was teaching a 2nd course in electrical.Â* The students ere
grown men that their companies sent them there for classes. He found
out that they had just been passed through the first part and did not
know much.Â* He had to fail about half of them.Â* He was called in by the
head of the college and said that his services were no longer needed.

Seems that the college was just after the money from the local
businesses and all the students 'had to pass with a C or better'.

Private colleges in particular work hard to make certain that
students are "successful".Â* Big state schools are a little more
"callous". Community colleges generally attract a much less
"traditional" group of students, many of them out of high school for
many years. A department chair is likely to say that if the students
aren't being successful it's the teacher's fault. Surely the failing
students will say it's the teacher's fault. No college likes to lose
students. Graduate schools expect to lose some. There's no place for
ineptitude on the part of the students or the teachers. The "bottom
line analysis" is very often done in terms of numbers, since that's
the easiest way.

Brick and mortar schools are quite concerned about the upcoming ones
on the Internet.Â* They are quite concerned with "staying relevant".
Loneliest place on most campuses these days--the library.Â* Little
joke: What's a "library"?


Same thing happened to a classmate of mine at a community college
teaching civil engineering.Â* I was talking to a a student at U of Del
the other day and she said they are still tough.

I think engineering courses can afford to be tougher since the students
are tougher, and they tend to be better prepared--and they didn't choose
engineering as a major because they were looking for the path of least
resistance.

I agree. All STEM courses are tougher. STEM students spend the college
years with their heads in the books, not partying. You also need the
talent for these studies and some cannot cut it no matter how hard they
study.

An idea I had concerning Student Loans
 

On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:44:52 -0400, Bill wrote:

Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Private trade schools and charter schools are often just big scams -
the "official" community colleges and polytechnics have generally good
teachers and turn out qualified graduates.




It depends on the school. A local 'offical ' community college was much
different. A co worker taught for several years at one at night. He is
very good at teaching.

One year he was teaching a 2nd course in electrical. The students ere
grown men that their companies sent them there for classes. He found
out that they had just been passed through the first part and did not
know much. He had to fail about half of them. He was called in by the
head of the college and said that his services were no longer needed.

Seems that the college was just after the money from the local
businesses and all the students 'had to pass with a C or better'.

Private colleges in particular work hard to make certain that
students are "successful". Big state schools are a little more
"callous". Community colleges generally attract a much less
"traditional" group of students, many of them out of high school
for many years. A department chair is likely to say that if the
students aren't being successful it's the teacher's fault. Surely
the failing students will say it's the teacher's fault. No
college likes to lose students. Graduate schools expect to lose
some. There's no place for ineptitude on the part of the students
or the teachers. The "bottom line analysis" is very often done in
terms of numbers, since that's the easiest way.

Brick and mortar schools are quite concerned about the upcoming
ones on the Internet. They are quite concerned with "staying
relevant". Loneliest place on most campuses these days--the
library. Little joke: What's a "library"?
Check into the Ontario "colleges of applied arts and technology" -
AKA "Community colleges"
Look at "Conestoga College of Applied Arts and Technology" in
Kitchener Ontario. It is a degree granting college as well as a
certificate or diploma granting college - and MANY of their students
are "university graduates" furthering their education - particularly
in technology - like graduate engineers going to college to learn
something that will make them usefull in today's job market.

Students often from one of the top engineering and high tech
universities in North America - the University of Waterloo.

Yes - we have a pretty good college and university program/system up
here. They also teach the courses for the Insurance Bureau for
insurance workers to earn their qualifications. And the nurses
training program - and paramedicals and first responders.