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Default Florida stand your ground case conviction.

On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 22:17:02 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/26/2019 7:29 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 10:42:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 11:29:28 AM UTC-4,
wrote:

Political bull**** snipped

The guy was fighting with the cops.
Should they have bought him a cake?

The guy never punched a cop, never hit a cop, he had no weapons,
he just struggled, refused to be handcuffed and they took him down.
At that point he was face down, several cops were on top of him,
he was no serious threat at that point. And if you, along with a
couple of other cops, can't restrain a guy like that
and deal with him without violating dept policy and using a deadly
chokehold, you should find another job. Now he will.


How long was he supposed to be allowed to "struggle" with police
before he stops the CRIME of resisting arrest?

This was a crime in progress by the biggest guy there who was not
going quietly. In the end he did tho. Mission accomplished.
I hope the cop finds a better job where they don't buy cake for
criminals to get them in the wagon.


Yeah, seems there was a very easy way to prevent this death. Comply and
figure it out later. If there is one of you and two, three, or four of
them, do you think you will win? Maybe he figured the cops would just
say "this guy is really tough, lets just let him go".

I like watching Live PD (A & E network) on weekends. Amazing how
criminals or suspects make it much more difficult that it has to be.


Yeah everyone talks about him saying "I can't breathe" but with his
heart condition, being grossly overweight and asthma I doubt he could
breathe after walking up the steps from the subway. He was fighting
with the cops for 15 minutes and that health issue was what killed
him, not the fact that someone grabbed him around the neck.
This isn't anywhere near the banned "choke hold" which was the old
"sleeper hold" that pinched off blood flow to the brain and literally
knocks you out.
I suppose they could have just put a guy on each arm and leg and wait
for him to die of the same heart attack but this was about to get far
more serious than just one guy getting arrested and they really wanted
to clear that scene before they had a riot. The supervisor told the
guy who got fired to take him down and get him in the wagon, then the
guy got fired for doing it. The supervisor never told him not to touch
the neck and she was standing right there watching.
Trader would have bought him a cake.
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Default Florida stand your ground case conviction.

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 12:48:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 22:17:02 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/26/2019 7:29 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 10:42:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 11:29:28 AM UTC-4,
wrote:

Political bull**** snipped

The guy was fighting with the cops.
Should they have bought him a cake?

The guy never punched a cop, never hit a cop, he had no weapons,
he just struggled, refused to be handcuffed and they took him down.
At that point he was face down, several cops were on top of him,
he was no serious threat at that point. And if you, along with a
couple of other cops, can't restrain a guy like that
and deal with him without violating dept policy and using a deadly
chokehold, you should find another job. Now he will.

How long was he supposed to be allowed to "struggle" with police
before he stops the CRIME of resisting arrest?

This was a crime in progress by the biggest guy there who was not
going quietly. In the end he did tho. Mission accomplished.
I hope the cop finds a better job where they don't buy cake for
criminals to get them in the wagon.


Yeah, seems there was a very easy way to prevent this death. Comply and
figure it out later. If there is one of you and two, three, or four of
them, do you think you will win? Maybe he figured the cops would just
say "this guy is really tough, lets just let him go".

I like watching Live PD (A & E network) on weekends. Amazing how
criminals or suspects make it much more difficult that it has to be.


Yeah everyone talks about him saying "I can't breathe" but with his
heart condition, being grossly overweight and asthma I doubt he could
breathe after walking up the steps from the subway.


Funny then that he didn't say that until the chokehold was applied.



He was fighting
with the cops for 15 minutes


That's a lie. The physical altercation lasted less than a minute.
Pantaleo immediately went to the banned chokehold, didn't even try
anything else, he went for his neck, took him to the ground. There
were four cops there, absolutely no excuse for using the prohibited
chokehold. And it was prohibited for exactly this reason, that there
had been many similar incidents, with perps dying needlessly.



and that health issue was what killed
him, not the fact that someone grabbed him around the neck.


The coroner clearly testified otherwise. Did you perform the autopsy?
Just like Trump, deny the facts, just make up BS.



This isn't anywhere near the banned "choke hold" which was the old
"sleeper hold" that pinched off blood flow to the brain and literally
knocks you out.


Again, per the PD. There is no differentiation, no allowed chokehold,
"stay away from the neck".

And here is the testimony of the head of police training that confirms
all that:

"The NYPDs head of training at the Police Academy testified on Tuesday that Officer Daniel Pantaleo was never trained to use a seatbelt hold, contradicting claims by the cops lawyer during his departmental trial for the death of Eric Garner.

After watching video evidence, Inspector Richard Dee, commanding officer of recruit training in the NYPD, said the position Pantaleo had when he wrapped his hand around Garners neck €śmeets the definition of a chokehold." Dee said Pantaleo was repeatedly instructed not to use the chokehold that led to Garners death as he was arrested on Staten Island on July 17, 2014."


I suppose they could have just put a guy on each arm and leg and wait
for him to die of the same heart attack but this was about to get far
more serious than just one guy getting arrested


Oh, really? That's a new one. What was going to happen? There were
four cops on Garner, plus others nearby. Nothing else was happening,
other than this arrest.



and they really wanted
to clear that scene before they had a riot. The supervisor told the
guy who got fired to take him down and get him in the wagon, then the
guy got fired for doing it. The supervisor never told him not to touch
the neck and she was standing right there watching.
Trader would have bought him a cake.



The supervisor didn't have to tell him not to use a chokehold, that was
part of his training, part of the dept policy. Should she have to tell
him not to shoot him, not to kill him, too? I guess if she knew he was
stupid and reckless, then maybe she should have. But he was an experienced
cop. He got the minimum, which is firing. The more I look at this,
the more I think he should have gone to trial and he's lucky that the
grand jury didn't indict him.
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Default Florida stand your ground case conviction.

On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 11:57:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 12:48:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 22:17:02 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/26/2019 7:29 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 10:42:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 11:29:28 AM UTC-4,
wrote:

Political bull**** snipped

The guy was fighting with the cops.
Should they have bought him a cake?

The guy never punched a cop, never hit a cop, he had no weapons,
he just struggled, refused to be handcuffed and they took him down.
At that point he was face down, several cops were on top of him,
he was no serious threat at that point. And if you, along with a
couple of other cops, can't restrain a guy like that
and deal with him without violating dept policy and using a deadly
chokehold, you should find another job. Now he will.

How long was he supposed to be allowed to "struggle" with police
before he stops the CRIME of resisting arrest?

This was a crime in progress by the biggest guy there who was not
going quietly. In the end he did tho. Mission accomplished.
I hope the cop finds a better job where they don't buy cake for
criminals to get them in the wagon.


Yeah, seems there was a very easy way to prevent this death. Comply and
figure it out later. If there is one of you and two, three, or four of
them, do you think you will win? Maybe he figured the cops would just
say "this guy is really tough, lets just let him go".

I like watching Live PD (A & E network) on weekends. Amazing how
criminals or suspects make it much more difficult that it has to be.


Yeah everyone talks about him saying "I can't breathe" but with his
heart condition, being grossly overweight and asthma I doubt he could
breathe after walking up the steps from the subway.


Funny then that he didn't say that until the chokehold was applied.


He died from cardiac arrest brought on by asthma. If he had simply got
in the ****ing wagon like the law requires when you are arrested he
would be dead of something else by now.


He was fighting
with the cops for 15 minutes


That's a lie. The physical altercation lasted less than a minute.
Pantaleo immediately went to the banned chokehold, didn't even try
anything else, he went for his neck, took him to the ground. There
were four cops there, absolutely no excuse for using the prohibited
chokehold. And it was prohibited for exactly this reason, that there
had been many similar incidents, with perps dying needlessly.


Again you do not understand what was banned and all of the monday
morning quarter backing in the world does not change that.

This was a political maneuver from DiBlasio on down to blame the cops
for some criminal's stupidity.
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Default Florida stand your ground case conviction.

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 4:16:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 11:57:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 12:48:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 22:17:02 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/26/2019 7:29 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 10:42:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 11:29:28 AM UTC-4,
wrote:

Political bull**** snipped

The guy was fighting with the cops.
Should they have bought him a cake?

The guy never punched a cop, never hit a cop, he had no weapons,
he just struggled, refused to be handcuffed and they took him down..
At that point he was face down, several cops were on top of him,
he was no serious threat at that point. And if you, along with a
couple of other cops, can't restrain a guy like that
and deal with him without violating dept policy and using a deadly
chokehold, you should find another job. Now he will.

How long was he supposed to be allowed to "struggle" with police
before he stops the CRIME of resisting arrest?

This was a crime in progress by the biggest guy there who was not
going quietly. In the end he did tho. Mission accomplished.
I hope the cop finds a better job where they don't buy cake for
criminals to get them in the wagon.


Yeah, seems there was a very easy way to prevent this death. Comply and
figure it out later. If there is one of you and two, three, or four of
them, do you think you will win? Maybe he figured the cops would just
say "this guy is really tough, lets just let him go".

I like watching Live PD (A & E network) on weekends. Amazing how
criminals or suspects make it much more difficult that it has to be.

Yeah everyone talks about him saying "I can't breathe" but with his
heart condition, being grossly overweight and asthma I doubt he could
breathe after walking up the steps from the subway.


Funny then that he didn't say that until the chokehold was applied.


He died from cardiac arrest brought on by asthma.


Did you perform the autopsy? What did the MD who did say?


NEW YORK (Reuters) - The New York City medical examiner who conducted an autopsy on an unarmed black man who was killed during a 2014 arrest said at a hearing on Wednesday that a police officers chokehold set off a €ślethal cascade€ť of events that ended in the mans death.

€śIn my opinion, thats a chokehold,€ť Dr. Floriana Persechino, the medical examiner, said after video footage of the arrest was put on pause during the hearing. She said the chokehold would have been painful and constricted Garners airways, triggering €śa lethal cascade of events€ť that led to his death.





If he had simply got
in the ****ing wagon like the law requires when you are arrested he
would be dead of something else by now.


Absolutely true. And if that reckless, stupid Pantaleo had not violated
police dept procedure and used a banned chokehold, Garner would likely
be alive.






He was fighting
with the cops for 15 minutes


That's a lie. The physical altercation lasted less than a minute.
Pantaleo immediately went to the banned chokehold, didn't even try
anything else, he went for his neck, took him to the ground. There
were four cops there, absolutely no excuse for using the prohibited
chokehold. And it was prohibited for exactly this reason, that there
had been many similar incidents, with perps dying needlessly.


Again you do not understand what was banned and all of the monday
morning quarter backing in the world does not change that.


You;re lying, I understand that the chokehold Garner used was BANNED
and I provided you with testimony from the head of nyc police training
that said exactly that. But feel free to dig you hole ever deeper.
It's what Trump would do.





This was a political maneuver from DiBlasio on down to blame the cops
for some criminal's stupidity.



BS it was. You have ZERO evidence that the MD who performed the autopsy,
the officer who head police training were influenced by politics. That
is a despicable allegation to level at those PROFESSIONALS. There was
at least one person here who was not professional and he got fired.

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On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 15:19:10 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

chokehold set off a €ślethal cascade€ť of events that ended in the mans death


The lethal cascade was an asthma attack and cardiac arrest. A leg hold
would have likely produced the same result.
The politics made it homicide.
I don't know why you guys pick the flimsiest cases to demonstrate
police misconduct when there are plenty of unarmed people shot
reaching for a wallet or cell phone.
If nothing else, why was the sargent absolved of virtually all
responsibility when she was in charge of the scene, 5 feet away and
she did NOTHING to stop it? She didn't even lose a stripe.



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On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 15:19:10 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

chokehold set off a €ślethal cascade€ť of events that ended in the mans death


The lethal cascade was an asthma attack and cardiac arrest. A leg hold
would have likely produced the same result.


The MD that performed the autopsy says otherwise. You conveniently
left out the start of the lethal cascade, the chokehold.

€śIn my opinion, thats a chokehold,€ť Dr. Floriana Persechino, the medical examiner, said after video footage of the arrest was put on pause during the hearing. She said the chokehold would have been painful and constricted Garners airways, triggering €śa lethal cascade of events€ť that led to his death.

Using a green laser pointer, Persechino explained that the autopsy photographs showed a band of ruptured blood vessels in the muscles in the front of Garners neck, and said they were caused by pressure from Pantaleos forearm. "



Just the facts.






The politics made it homicide.


BS. The coroner ruled it a homicide.



I don't know why you guys pick the flimsiest cases to demonstrate
police misconduct when there are plenty of unarmed people shot
reaching for a wallet or cell phone.


What "you people" are you referring to? There are some police shootings
where a perp reached for something, didn't have a gun and the cops
shot them. Many the police were not held responsible for, eg it's
a dark alley, the perp reaches into his pants and the cop thinks he
saw a gun. Most of those the cop gets the benefit of the doubt
and I've supported them.
Very different than Pantaleo deliberately applying a chokehold that
NYC police have banned, that he knew he was not supposed to use,
in broad daylight, with three other cops there assisting in taking
Garner into custody. That went on for a minute or more, it was
initiated by Panaleo, who should have figured out what the correct
way to proceed was, he had plenty of time to do that and also
plenty of time to reconsider. The cop shootings you're talking
about were over in a second, it had to be a split second decision,
they thought the perp had a gun and was a lethal threat. Garner
had no gun, didn't reach for a gun, and presented no lethal threat.
That's the difference.



If nothing else, why was the sargent absolved of virtually all
responsibility when she was in charge of the scene, 5 feet away and
she did NOTHING to stop it? She didn't even lose a stripe.


I said from the beginning that probably isn't right. But there has been
very little reported about exactly where she was, whether it was clear
she saw what Panaleo was doing, etc. If it's clear she was close, that
she saw it, then yes, she should have received more than a loss of a
couple weeks vacation.
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On 8/28/2019 10:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 15:19:10 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

chokehold set off a €ślethal cascade€ť of events that ended in the mans death


The lethal cascade was an asthma attack and cardiac arrest. A leg hold
would have likely produced the same result.


The MD that performed the autopsy says otherwise. You conveniently
left out the start of the lethal cascade, the chokehold.


You can track back to the start of the cascade was when he fought rather
than be handcuffed.

Death was preventable from both sides. Not to excuse a choke hold but
you do put yourself at risk when you fight. I've never heard the police
say "this guy is too tough, lets just let him go"
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On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 10:31:04 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/28/2019 10:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 15:19:10 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

chokehold set off a €ślethal cascade€ť of events that ended in the mans death

The lethal cascade was an asthma attack and cardiac arrest. A leg hold
would have likely produced the same result.


The MD that performed the autopsy says otherwise. You conveniently
left out the start of the lethal cascade, the chokehold.


You can track back to the start of the cascade was when he fought rather
than be handcuffed.

Death was preventable from both sides. Not to excuse a choke hold but
you do put yourself at risk when you fight. I've never heard the police
say "this guy is too tough, lets just let him go"


I don't disagree. With most of the police shootings, eg where they wind
up firing on some perp that they've been chasing, where it's night,
where they say they saw him reaching into his pocket and thought they
saw a gun, I've sided with the cops. I've said that these perps create
a tense, toxic situation by resisting arrest, one that puts everyone
in jeopardy. I said all along that Garner was wrong too. He paid
his price, a very, very high price for his bad behavior. Now the cop
finally has paid a price for his bad behavior too, he's fired.

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On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 07:18:46 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 15:19:10 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

chokehold set off a €ślethal cascade€ť of events that ended in the mans death


The lethal cascade was an asthma attack and cardiac arrest. A leg hold
would have likely produced the same result.


The MD that performed the autopsy says otherwise. You conveniently
left out the start of the lethal cascade, the chokehold.

€śIn my opinion, thats a chokehold,€ť Dr. Floriana Persechino, the medical examiner, said after video footage of the arrest was put on pause during the hearing. She said the chokehold would have been painful and constricted Garners airways, triggering €śa lethal cascade of events€ť that led to his death.

Using a green laser pointer, Persechino explained that the autopsy photographs showed a band of ruptured blood vessels in the muscles in the front of Garners neck, and said they were caused by pressure from Pantaleos forearm. "



Just the facts.






The politics made it homicide.


BS. The coroner ruled it a homicide.



I don't know why you guys pick the flimsiest cases to demonstrate
police misconduct when there are plenty of unarmed people shot
reaching for a wallet or cell phone.


What "you people" are you referring to? There are some police shootings
where a perp reached for something, didn't have a gun and the cops
shot them. Many the police were not held responsible for, eg it's
a dark alley, the perp reaches into his pants and the cop thinks he
saw a gun. Most of those the cop gets the benefit of the doubt
and I've supported them.
Very different than Pantaleo deliberately applying a chokehold that
NYC police have banned, that he knew he was not supposed to use,
in broad daylight, with three other cops there assisting in taking
Garner into custody. That went on for a minute or more, it was
initiated by Panaleo, who should have figured out what the correct
way to proceed was, he had plenty of time to do that and also
plenty of time to reconsider. The cop shootings you're talking
about were over in a second, it had to be a split second decision,
they thought the perp had a gun and was a lethal threat. Garner
had no gun, didn't reach for a gun, and presented no lethal threat.
That's the difference.



If nothing else, why was the sargent absolved of virtually all
responsibility when she was in charge of the scene, 5 feet away and
she did NOTHING to stop it? She didn't even lose a stripe.


I said from the beginning that probably isn't right. But there has been
very little reported about exactly where she was, whether it was clear
she saw what Panaleo was doing, etc. If it's clear she was close, that
she saw it, then yes, she should have received more than a loss of a
couple weeks vacation.


It was still nothing but a bow to the BLM movement, pure and simple.
The man died because he fought with the police and his own health
issues are what killed him. A healthy person would have been fine.

"The NYPDs top doctor determined that a chokehold was never used on
Eric Garner €” despite a ruling to that effect by the city medical
examiners office €” and he based it on a second video never publicly
released."
https://nypost.com/2019/04/04/new-video-of-eric-garners-death-used-as-evidence-in-case-against-daniel-pantaleo/



A politically appointed person serving at the pleasure of a left wing
police hating mayor said what she had to say. The Black supervisor in
charge of the scene and standing 5 feet away got away virtually
untouched in spite of her watching the whole thing and not making any
attempt to stop anything the cop did.
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In article ,
says...

I don't disagree. With most of the police shootings, eg where they wind
up firing on some perp that they've been chasing, where it's night,
where they say they saw him reaching into his pocket and thought they
saw a gun, I've sided with the cops. I've said that these perps create
a tense, toxic situation by resisting arrest, one that puts everyone
in jeopardy. I said all along that Garner was wrong too. He paid
his price, a very, very high price for his bad behavior. Now the cop
finally has paid a price for his bad behavior too, he's fired.




I don't see how anyone would want to be a cop now.

When the perp starts running away or starts a fight, the cop has to make
a split second decission on what to do. Make the wrong one and you get
fired. If the perp starts fighting back, your body ramps up to a win at
any cost mode and can be difficult to control.

Then you go to court and most likely get fired or worse.

I still say that the cop should ask you to stop and put your hands
behind your back. If you do, he should not be able to do anything that
hirts you . If not, then your ass is his to do whatever he wants to to
you. If this was the case, I bet most would comply if they knew they
were going to get shot or have the crap beat out of them.
Just like that black cop I mentioned a while back. In the 1960's he did
not have any problem laying the black jack on the blacks and most knew
him and did not give him any problems.





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On 8/28/2019 10:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 10:31:04 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/28/2019 10:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 15:19:10 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

chokehold set off a €ślethal cascade€ť of events that ended in the mans death

The lethal cascade was an asthma attack and cardiac arrest. A leg hold
would have likely produced the same result.

The MD that performed the autopsy says otherwise. You conveniently
left out the start of the lethal cascade, the chokehold.


You can track back to the start of the cascade was when he fought rather
than be handcuffed.

Death was preventable from both sides. Not to excuse a choke hold but
you do put yourself at risk when you fight. I've never heard the police
say "this guy is too tough, lets just let him go"


I don't disagree. With most of the police shootings, eg where they wind
up firing on some perp that they've been chasing, where it's night,
where they say they saw him reaching into his pocket and thought they
saw a gun, I've sided with the cops. I've said that these perps create
a tense, toxic situation by resisting arrest, one that puts everyone
in jeopardy. I said all along that Garner was wrong too. He paid
his price, a very, very high price for his bad behavior. Now the cop
finally has paid a price for his bad behavior too, he's fired.


I wonder how his family really feels about it now that they have $5.9
million. Not to single them out, many of those that get huge settlements.
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On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 11:52:38 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

I don't disagree. With most of the police shootings, eg where they wind
up firing on some perp that they've been chasing, where it's night,
where they say they saw him reaching into his pocket and thought they
saw a gun, I've sided with the cops. I've said that these perps create
a tense, toxic situation by resisting arrest, one that puts everyone
in jeopardy. I said all along that Garner was wrong too. He paid
his price, a very, very high price for his bad behavior. Now the cop
finally has paid a price for his bad behavior too, he's fired.




I don't see how anyone would want to be a cop now.

When the perp starts running away or starts a fight, the cop has to make
a split second decission on what to do. Make the wrong one and you get
fired. If the perp starts fighting back, your body ramps up to a win at
any cost mode and can be difficult to control.

Then you go to court and most likely get fired or worse.

I still say that the cop should ask you to stop and put your hands
behind your back. If you do, he should not be able to do anything that
hirts you . If not, then your ass is his to do whatever he wants to to
you.


That's shocking and having seen you post mostly reasonable things here
for years, I'm very surprised and saddened. What you just stated amounts
to cops having a license to kill, to be above the law, to administering
street justice to someone who has been convicted of now crime. Obviously
you need to read and understand the Constitution. This isn't Russia or
a banana republic.
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On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 11:31:18 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 07:18:46 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 15:19:10 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

chokehold set off a €ślethal cascade€ť of events that ended in the mans death

The lethal cascade was an asthma attack and cardiac arrest. A leg hold
would have likely produced the same result.


The MD that performed the autopsy says otherwise. You conveniently
left out the start of the lethal cascade, the chokehold.

€śIn my opinion, thats a chokehold,€ť Dr. Floriana Persechino, the medical examiner, said after video footage of the arrest was put on pause during the hearing. She said the chokehold would have been painful and constricted Garners airways, triggering €śa lethal cascade of events€ť that led to his death.

Using a green laser pointer, Persechino explained that the autopsy photographs showed a band of ruptured blood vessels in the muscles in the front of Garners neck, and said they were caused by pressure from Pantaleos forearm. "



Just the facts.






The politics made it homicide.


BS. The coroner ruled it a homicide.



I don't know why you guys pick the flimsiest cases to demonstrate
police misconduct when there are plenty of unarmed people shot
reaching for a wallet or cell phone.


What "you people" are you referring to? There are some police shootings
where a perp reached for something, didn't have a gun and the cops
shot them. Many the police were not held responsible for, eg it's
a dark alley, the perp reaches into his pants and the cop thinks he
saw a gun. Most of those the cop gets the benefit of the doubt
and I've supported them.
Very different than Pantaleo deliberately applying a chokehold that
NYC police have banned, that he knew he was not supposed to use,
in broad daylight, with three other cops there assisting in taking
Garner into custody. That went on for a minute or more, it was
initiated by Panaleo, who should have figured out what the correct
way to proceed was, he had plenty of time to do that and also
plenty of time to reconsider. The cop shootings you're talking
about were over in a second, it had to be a split second decision,
they thought the perp had a gun and was a lethal threat. Garner
had no gun, didn't reach for a gun, and presented no lethal threat.
That's the difference.



If nothing else, why was the sargent absolved of virtually all
responsibility when she was in charge of the scene, 5 feet away and
she did NOTHING to stop it? She didn't even lose a stripe.


I said from the beginning that probably isn't right. But there has been
very little reported about exactly where she was, whether it was clear
she saw what Panaleo was doing, etc. If it's clear she was close, that
she saw it, then yes, she should have received more than a loss of a
couple weeks vacation.


It was still nothing but a bow to the BLM movement, pure and simple.
The man died because he fought with the police and his own health
issues are what killed him. A healthy person would have been fine.

"The NYPDs top doctor determined that a chokehold was never used on
Eric Garner €” despite a ruling to that effect by the city medical
examiners office €” and he based it on a second video never publicly
released."
https://nypost.com/2019/04/04/new-video-of-eric-garners-death-used-as-evidence-in-case-against-daniel-pantaleo/



A politically appointed person serving at the pleasure of a left wing
police hating mayor said what she had to say.


Wrong again. The MD testifying was the qualified, credible DOCTOR,
a career employee in the office of the medical examiner. And you'd
think that office would be among the last to be compromised by
politics. De Blasio didn't appoint the medical examiner that heads
the whole dept either. Following you screwy logic, then anybody
that works for
the federal govt, their testimony is invalid, because the govt is
headed by Trump. If you have any actual data that shows the MD that
performed the autopsy was incompetent or biased, I'd be happy to see
it. Meanwhile I provided you with the testimony of the head of police
training, who said that what Pantaleo did was a banned chokehold.
He;s a cop, but I suppose he's part of some grand political conspiracy
too. Couldn't be that he's just an honest cop, stating the facts,
the truth. For sure he's not going to be very popular among most
NYC cops, factor that in.









The Black supervisor in
charge of the scene and standing 5 feet away got away virtually
untouched in spite of her watching the whole thing and not making any
attempt to stop anything the cop did.


If you have a cite that actually shows she watched the whole thing,
I would be happy to look at it.



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On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:25:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/28/2019 10:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 10:31:04 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/28/2019 10:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 15:19:10 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

chokehold set off a €ślethal cascade€ť of events that ended in the mans death

The lethal cascade was an asthma attack and cardiac arrest. A leg hold
would have likely produced the same result.

The MD that performed the autopsy says otherwise. You conveniently
left out the start of the lethal cascade, the chokehold.


You can track back to the start of the cascade was when he fought rather
than be handcuffed.

Death was preventable from both sides. Not to excuse a choke hold but
you do put yourself at risk when you fight. I've never heard the police
say "this guy is too tough, lets just let him go"


I don't disagree. With most of the police shootings, eg where they wind
up firing on some perp that they've been chasing, where it's night,
where they say they saw him reaching into his pocket and thought they
saw a gun, I've sided with the cops. I've said that these perps create
a tense, toxic situation by resisting arrest, one that puts everyone
in jeopardy. I said all along that Garner was wrong too. He paid
his price, a very, very high price for his bad behavior. Now the cop
finally has paid a price for his bad behavior too, he's fired.


I wonder how his family really feels about it now that they have $5.9
million. Not to single them out, many of those that get huge settlements.


In the back of their minds I am sure they are happy, They expected to
have him die in a pool of blood caused by one of the thugs he hung out
with and they would owe money for his funeral.

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On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:35:14 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 11:31:18 AM UTC-4, wrote:



The Black supervisor in
charge of the scene and standing 5 feet away got away virtually
untouched in spite of her watching the whole thing and not making any
attempt to stop anything the cop did.


If you have a cite that actually shows she watched the whole thing,
I would be happy to look at it.


Just look at the Wiki page
"The arrest was supervised by a female African-American NYPD sergeant,
Kizzy Adoni, who did not intercede.[48] Adoni was quoted in the
original police report as stating, "The perpetrator's condition did
not seem serious and he did not appear to get worse."[49]

A police sergeant called an ambulance and indicated that Mr. Garner
was having trouble breathing, but reportedly added that he "'did not
appear to be in great distress'".

and if you want me to I can probably track down the video.

I suppose I could wish that the cop who comes to save your ass would
worry more about breaking some rule than saving you but I am not that
kind of guy.
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On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 4:48:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:20:19 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 12:29:29 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

I wonder how his family really feels about it now that they have $5.9
million. Not to single them out, many of those that get huge settlements.



Yep, many times the cop gets fired or worse and the prep or his family
gets a million plus.

Lawyers get rich .


Which is a good reason that cops that violate PD policy, that cause
needless deaths, that bring shame and lawsuits should be fired.


I suppose you think people who fight with cops and fail to comply with
lawful orders should be rewarded.


I've never said anything at all like that. And if you read what
I've posted here over the years, I've sided with the police in
most of these incidents. That doesn't mean I close my eyes and
deny the facts where a cop was wrong.




Like I have said, I know a lot of cops, most from the DC Police or PG
county and they run into people who want to fight them all the time.
Cake is not going to work.


No **** Sherlock, I never said or implied that it would. They didn't
have to give Garner cake, they just had to arrest him using the
allowed methods. Three of the cops did that. One chose to ignore
the dept rules, the dept training and do what he pleased. Garner
died. The medical examiner says the fatal sequence was initiated
by the chokehold, and it was forceful enough that she had photos
of the damage it caused to his neck.



My neighbor here was a disabled Cleveland cop who suffered an injury
he took to his grave from a guy like Garner. He ended up shooting the
guy but by then he was crippled for life. It is no wonder cops go to
the gun so fast.

Maybe you should put on a badge and walk around Newark or Camden for a
week and then get back to us.


Maybe cops like Pantaleo should follow the rules. Rules that were put
in place for exactly this reason, that chokeholds can be fatal.
Just as there are good cops, there are some bad cops, that won't
follow rules and are just itching to give somebody a good whooping,
thinking like you do, that the deserve it.

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On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 4:54:27 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:35:14 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 11:31:18 AM UTC-4, wrote:



The Black supervisor in
charge of the scene and standing 5 feet away got away virtually
untouched in spite of her watching the whole thing and not making any
attempt to stop anything the cop did.


If you have a cite that actually shows she watched the whole thing,
I would be happy to look at it.


Just look at the Wiki page
"The arrest was supervised by a female African-American NYPD sergeant,
Kizzy Adoni, who did not intercede.[48] Adoni was quoted in the
original police report as stating, "The perpetrator's condition did
not seem serious and he did not appear to get worse."[49]

A police sergeant called an ambulance and indicated that Mr. Garner
was having trouble breathing, but reportedly added that he "'did not
appear to be in great distress'".

and if you want me to I can probably track down the video.

I suppose I could wish that the cop who comes to save your ass would
worry more about breaking some rule than saving you but I am not that
kind of guy.


The above doesn't add anything to what we already agree, that a
supervisor was there. What she was actually doing, did she see
what P was doing, are the questions. And I've already said that
if she did see it and did nothing, then she should have received
more than a couple weeks of vacation dock.



Who exactly was Panteleo "saving"? There was no deadly threat there,
just a guy who was refusing to be handcuffed. He had not assaulted
anyone, he had not committed some violent crime. On the reality TV
police shows they frequently tackle and take down suspects who are
resisting and I can't recall ever seeing a chokehold used. As far
as procedure goes, how dumb is it to be arresting guys like Garner,
taking them into custody for selling cigarettes? Seems low level
things like that could be handled with the cops just giving him
a summons.


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On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 16:09:57 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 4:48:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:20:19 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 12:29:29 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

I wonder how his family really feels about it now that they have $5.9
million. Not to single them out, many of those that get huge settlements.



Yep, many times the cop gets fired or worse and the prep or his family
gets a million plus.

Lawyers get rich .

Which is a good reason that cops that violate PD policy, that cause
needless deaths, that bring shame and lawsuits should be fired.


I suppose you think people who fight with cops and fail to comply with
lawful orders should be rewarded.


I've never said anything at all like that. And if you read what
I've posted here over the years, I've sided with the police in
most of these incidents. That doesn't mean I close my eyes and
deny the facts where a cop was wrong.




Like I have said, I know a lot of cops, most from the DC Police or PG
county and they run into people who want to fight them all the time.
Cake is not going to work.


No **** Sherlock, I never said or implied that it would. They didn't
have to give Garner cake, they just had to arrest him using the
allowed methods. Three of the cops did that. One chose to ignore
the dept rules, the dept training and do what he pleased. Garner
died. The medical examiner says the fatal sequence was initiated
by the chokehold, and it was forceful enough that she had photos
of the damage it caused to his neck.



My neighbor here was a disabled Cleveland cop who suffered an injury
he took to his grave from a guy like Garner. He ended up shooting the
guy but by then he was crippled for life. It is no wonder cops go to
the gun so fast.

Maybe you should put on a badge and walk around Newark or Camden for a
week and then get back to us.


Maybe cops like Pantaleo should follow the rules. Rules that were put
in place for exactly this reason, that chokeholds can be fatal.
Just as there are good cops, there are some bad cops, that won't
follow rules and are just itching to give somebody a good whooping,
thinking like you do, that the deserve it.



Yeah that is what you would do in a fight with a much bigger man, Pull
out your rule book and be sure you were being polite. I guess you read
the article where the police department doctor said this was NOT the
banned choke hold. The "damage" to his neck was superficial, no
collapse of the wind pipe or bone damage. The guy died from an asthma
attack, followed by a heart attack. Even the ME admitted that.

I also gave you your cite about the supervisor's acquiescence in the
way this was handled and she was there, not monday morning quarter
backing.
This was a political lynching of a cop, after the fact by an anti
police mayor to appease the black community and it is not shocking
that people who serve at his pleasure like the ME went along. Just
because he didn't appoint her doesn't mean he can't fire her.
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On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 7:39:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 16:09:57 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 4:48:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:20:19 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 12:29:29 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

I wonder how his family really feels about it now that they have $5.9
million. Not to single them out, many of those that get huge settlements.



Yep, many times the cop gets fired or worse and the prep or his family
gets a million plus.

Lawyers get rich .

Which is a good reason that cops that violate PD policy, that cause
needless deaths, that bring shame and lawsuits should be fired.

I suppose you think people who fight with cops and fail to comply with
lawful orders should be rewarded.


I've never said anything at all like that. And if you read what
I've posted here over the years, I've sided with the police in
most of these incidents. That doesn't mean I close my eyes and
deny the facts where a cop was wrong.




Like I have said, I know a lot of cops, most from the DC Police or PG
county and they run into people who want to fight them all the time.
Cake is not going to work.


No **** Sherlock, I never said or implied that it would. They didn't
have to give Garner cake, they just had to arrest him using the
allowed methods. Three of the cops did that. One chose to ignore
the dept rules, the dept training and do what he pleased. Garner
died. The medical examiner says the fatal sequence was initiated
by the chokehold, and it was forceful enough that she had photos
of the damage it caused to his neck.



My neighbor here was a disabled Cleveland cop who suffered an injury
he took to his grave from a guy like Garner. He ended up shooting the
guy but by then he was crippled for life. It is no wonder cops go to
the gun so fast.

Maybe you should put on a badge and walk around Newark or Camden for a
week and then get back to us.


Maybe cops like Pantaleo should follow the rules. Rules that were put
in place for exactly this reason, that chokeholds can be fatal.
Just as there are good cops, there are some bad cops, that won't
follow rules and are just itching to give somebody a good whooping,
thinking like you do, that the deserve it.



Yeah that is what you would do in a fight with a much bigger man, Pull
out your rule book and be sure you were being polite.


A - It wasn't much of a fight. And you claim he was about ready to
die anyway from all his health problems.

B - There were FOUR cops on the guy.

C - I would hope I would remember my training, including that chokeholds
are dangerous and not to be used.





I guess you read
the article where the police department doctor said this was NOT the
banned choke hold.


No, I didn't see that. IDK how a police doctor would be an expert
in what chokeholds are allowed or what the training, policy, etc
was. The guy who was expert in that, the head of police training
said it was a chokehold, it was prohibited.




The "damage" to his neck was superficial, no
collapse of the wind pipe or bone damage. The guy died from an asthma
attack, followed by a heart attack. Even the ME admitted that.


I'm sure if the medical examiner had photos of the broken blood
vessels in your neck from a chokehold, you'd have a very different
opinion.





I also gave you your cite about the supervisor's acquiescence in the
way this was handled and she was there, not monday morning quarter
backing.


What you provided only said the supervisor was there, not when she
got there, what she saw, etc. So now that I once again have to go
looking for the details, look at this:

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...m3m-story.html

'Adonis, accused by the NYPD of failure to supervise, was seven miles away from Bay St. when all hell broke loose on Staten Island five years ago.

The cop, who joined the NYPD in 2002, is first seen on video of the fatal encounter after Garner has already been taken to the ground by Pantaleo. Adonis wasnt there when the two confronted each other and she wasnt there when Garner was cuffed.

But even so, the NYPD says she must have a department trial at One Police Plaza for her failure to intervene after Garner was on the pavement."


If that's true, then you have your answer as to why she was only
docked 20 days pay. Like I said, without knowing all the details
there, it's hard to make a judgment. Pantaleo is very different.
He used a chokehold and the PD had banned them. And they banned
them because other people had already died in similar cases from
chokeholds. That's why the COP said "stay away from the neck"
Pantaleo didn't. And it wasn't like it was one on one with him
and Garner. There were four cops tackling Garner.




This was a political lynching of a cop, after the fact by an anti
police mayor to appease the black community and it is not shocking
that people who serve at his pleasure like the ME went along. Just
because he didn't appoint her doesn't mean he can't fire her.


BS. It was a cop who disregarded his orders, disregarded his training
and used a banned chokehold and the guy died. That's why they banned
them to begin with. capiche? You have ZERO evidence that any
political pressure was put on the MD who did the autopsy. In fact,
that claim makes no sense at all. If the city was out to get P,
why didn't they get him indicted? A prosecutor can get a grand
jury to indict a ham sandwich, yet they didn't. And for political
purposes, if you were going to try to obstruct, the obvious thing
would be to do the OPPOSITE, to have the autopsy find that he
just died of natural causes, that the chokehold had no effect.
Then the city looks like they did nothing wrong.
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On 8/28/2019 8:25 PM, trader_4 wrote:
A - It wasn't much of a fight. And you claim he was about ready to
die anyway from all his health problems.

B - There were FOUR cops on the guy.

C - I would hope I would remember my training, including that chokeholds
are dangerous and not to be used.



Who gives a fsck.

The police should use whatever force they like to subdue a do-bad.Â* Too bad if the do-bad dies.Â* The place to fight is in the courtroom.Â* Duh!

--
Get off my lawn!

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On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:25:51 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 7:39:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 16:09:57 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 4:48:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:20:19 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 12:29:29 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

I wonder how his family really feels about it now that they have $5.9
million. Not to single them out, many of those that get huge settlements.



Yep, many times the cop gets fired or worse and the prep or his family
gets a million plus.

Lawyers get rich .

Which is a good reason that cops that violate PD policy, that cause
needless deaths, that bring shame and lawsuits should be fired.

I suppose you think people who fight with cops and fail to comply with
lawful orders should be rewarded.

I've never said anything at all like that. And if you read what
I've posted here over the years, I've sided with the police in
most of these incidents. That doesn't mean I close my eyes and
deny the facts where a cop was wrong.




Like I have said, I know a lot of cops, most from the DC Police or PG
county and they run into people who want to fight them all the time.
Cake is not going to work.

No **** Sherlock, I never said or implied that it would. They didn't
have to give Garner cake, they just had to arrest him using the
allowed methods. Three of the cops did that. One chose to ignore
the dept rules, the dept training and do what he pleased. Garner
died. The medical examiner says the fatal sequence was initiated
by the chokehold, and it was forceful enough that she had photos
of the damage it caused to his neck.



My neighbor here was a disabled Cleveland cop who suffered an injury
he took to his grave from a guy like Garner. He ended up shooting the
guy but by then he was crippled for life. It is no wonder cops go to
the gun so fast.

Maybe you should put on a badge and walk around Newark or Camden for a
week and then get back to us.

Maybe cops like Pantaleo should follow the rules. Rules that were put
in place for exactly this reason, that chokeholds can be fatal.
Just as there are good cops, there are some bad cops, that won't
follow rules and are just itching to give somebody a good whooping,
thinking like you do, that the deserve it.



Yeah that is what you would do in a fight with a much bigger man, Pull
out your rule book and be sure you were being polite.


A - It wasn't much of a fight. And you claim he was about ready to
die anyway from all his health problems.

B - There were FOUR cops on the guy.

C - I would hope I would remember my training, including that chokeholds
are dangerous and not to be used.


Yeah sure, that is real easy sitting in your safe little house behind
your keyboard. You are a bad ass when you type.

I guess you read
the article where the police department doctor said this was NOT the
banned choke hold.


No, I didn't see that. IDK how a police doctor would be an expert
in what chokeholds are allowed or what the training, policy, etc
was. The guy who was expert in that, the head of police training
said it was a chokehold, it was prohibited.

I posted the link and a quote. Was it just something you chose to
ignore?

The "damage" to his neck was superficial, no
collapse of the wind pipe or bone damage. The guy died from an asthma
attack, followed by a heart attack. Even the ME admitted that.


I'm sure if the medical examiner had photos of the broken blood
vessels in your neck from a chokehold, you'd have a very different
opinion.


Another name for broken blood vessels a bruise (AKA hematoma) but that
doesn't sound near as inflammatory does it ?


I also gave you your cite about the supervisor's acquiescence in the
way this was handled and she was there, not monday morning quarter
backing.


What you provided only said the supervisor was there, not when she
got there, what she saw, etc. So now that I once again have to go
looking for the details, look at this:

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...m3m-story.html

'Adonis, accused by the NYPD of failure to supervise, was seven miles away from Bay St. when all hell broke loose on Staten Island five years ago.


Who was the black female sargent standing there then?


The cop, who joined the NYPD in 2002, is first seen on video of the fatal encounter after Garner has already been taken to the ground by Pantaleo. Adonis wasnt there when the two confronted each other and she wasnt there when Garner was cuffed.


She must have beamed herself 7 miles away then, you said it was only a
short struggle and she is in that video.
She is also the one who called EMS and told them Garner was having
trouble breathing but he was OK
Somebody is lying here or they are having trouble keeping there story
straight. I guess I really need to find the original video. It sounds
like the one that exonerates Pantaleo has been buried by city hall
after it was used to get the charges tossed.


But even so, the NYPD says she must have a department trial at One Police Plaza for her failure to intervene after Garner was on the pavement."


If that's true, then you have your answer as to why she was only
docked 20 days pay. Like I said, without knowing all the details
there, it's hard to make a judgment. Pantaleo is very different.
He used a chokehold and the PD had banned them. And they banned
them because other people had already died in similar cases from
chokeholds. That's why the COP said "stay away from the neck"
Pantaleo didn't. And it wasn't like it was one on one with him
and Garner. There were four cops tackling Garner.

Hummmm black female cop gets a slap on the wrist and the Italian gets
the book thrown at him, let me think a minute.


This was a political lynching of a cop, after the fact by an anti
police mayor to appease the black community and it is not shocking
that people who serve at his pleasure like the ME went along. Just
because he didn't appoint her doesn't mean he can't fire her.


BS. It was a cop who disregarded his orders, disregarded his training
and used a banned chokehold and the guy died. That's why they banned
them to begin with. capiche? You have ZERO evidence that any
political pressure was put on the MD who did the autopsy. In fact,
that claim makes no sense at all. If the city was out to get P,
why didn't they get him indicted? A prosecutor can get a grand
jury to indict a ham sandwich, yet they didn't. And for political
purposes, if you were going to try to obstruct, the obvious thing
would be to do the OPPOSITE, to have the autopsy find that he
just died of natural causes, that the chokehold had no effect.
Then the city looks like they did nothing wrong.


The BLM people were not going to accept that and DeBlasio did not want
a riot that early in his administration. BTW the thug who shot the
original video is still in prison on unrelated charges. He was a BLM
guy tho.
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On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 10:10:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:25:51 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 7:39:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 16:09:57 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 4:48:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:20:19 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 12:29:29 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says....

I wonder how his family really feels about it now that they have $5.9
million. Not to single them out, many of those that get huge settlements.



Yep, many times the cop gets fired or worse and the prep or his family
gets a million plus.

Lawyers get rich .

Which is a good reason that cops that violate PD policy, that cause
needless deaths, that bring shame and lawsuits should be fired.

I suppose you think people who fight with cops and fail to comply with
lawful orders should be rewarded.

I've never said anything at all like that. And if you read what
I've posted here over the years, I've sided with the police in
most of these incidents. That doesn't mean I close my eyes and
deny the facts where a cop was wrong.




Like I have said, I know a lot of cops, most from the DC Police or PG
county and they run into people who want to fight them all the time..
Cake is not going to work.

No **** Sherlock, I never said or implied that it would. They didn't
have to give Garner cake, they just had to arrest him using the
allowed methods. Three of the cops did that. One chose to ignore
the dept rules, the dept training and do what he pleased. Garner
died. The medical examiner says the fatal sequence was initiated
by the chokehold, and it was forceful enough that she had photos
of the damage it caused to his neck.



My neighbor here was a disabled Cleveland cop who suffered an injury
he took to his grave from a guy like Garner. He ended up shooting the
guy but by then he was crippled for life. It is no wonder cops go to
the gun so fast.

Maybe you should put on a badge and walk around Newark or Camden for a
week and then get back to us.

Maybe cops like Pantaleo should follow the rules. Rules that were put
in place for exactly this reason, that chokeholds can be fatal.
Just as there are good cops, there are some bad cops, that won't
follow rules and are just itching to give somebody a good whooping,
thinking like you do, that the deserve it.


Yeah that is what you would do in a fight with a much bigger man, Pull
out your rule book and be sure you were being polite.


A - It wasn't much of a fight. And you claim he was about ready to
die anyway from all his health problems.

B - There were FOUR cops on the guy.

C - I would hope I would remember my training, including that chokeholds
are dangerous and not to be used.


Yeah sure, that is real easy sitting in your safe little house behind
your keyboard. You are a bad ass when you type.


The bad ass was Pantaleo who disobeyed his orders and training,
went rogue and used a chokehold, in a situation where it was totally
unnecessary. The head of police training testified to that.
I suppose he's a political appointee too? He testified that
it was a chokehold, that it was banned and that it was unnecessary.






I guess you read
the article where the police department doctor said this was NOT the
banned choke hold.


No, I didn't see that. IDK how a police doctor would be an expert
in what chokeholds are allowed or what the training, policy, etc
was. The guy who was expert in that, the head of police training
said it was a chokehold, it was prohibited.

I posted the link and a quote. Was it just something you chose to
ignore?


No, I just didn't see it. I went back and looked and then tried
to further track it down. First, all I see is that Pantaleo's
lawyer claimed that there was an internal PD report that included
something from that doctor that the lawyer claims says that.
I could find nothing about that doctor actually testifying, under
oath, which if it's true and it really says what he lawyer claims
and would help P, is very odd. All the hits are to P's lawyer
saying it in one instance. If you have something that shows
the actual report or the doctor actually testifying, I'd be
happy to see it. P's lawyer saying some report says something
doesn't amount to much.






The "damage" to his neck was superficial, no
collapse of the wind pipe or bone damage. The guy died from an asthma
attack, followed by a heart attack. Even the ME admitted that.


I'm sure if the medical examiner had photos of the broken blood
vessels in your neck from a chokehold, you'd have a very different
opinion.


Another name for broken blood vessels a bruise (AKA hematoma) but that
doesn't sound near as inflammatory does it ?


Were you there to hear the MD testify under oath? I'd bet that
she used the medical term, then described it in layman's terms.
She also had photos of the injury.
Regardless of what you call it, it shows that substantial force
was applied, which if someone has asthma, could initiate the
death sequence. Which of course is why they were BANNED by
NYC and most other PDs.






I also gave you your cite about the supervisor's acquiescence in the
way this was handled and she was there, not monday morning quarter
backing.


What you provided only said the supervisor was there, not when she
got there, what she saw, etc. So now that I once again have to go
looking for the details, look at this:

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...m3m-story.html

'Adonis, accused by the NYPD of failure to supervise, was seven miles away from Bay St. when all hell broke loose on Staten Island five years ago.


Who was the black female sargent standing there then?


Read the rest and figure it out.





The cop, who joined the NYPD in 2002, is first seen on video of the fatal encounter after Garner has already been taken to the ground by Pantaleo. Adonis wasnt there when the two confronted each other and she wasnt there when Garner was cuffed.


She must have beamed herself 7 miles away then, you said it was only a
short struggle and she is in that video.


Any other facts you want to try to distort into what amounts to lies?
The actual struggle was short, it's on the video. The engagement
with Garner, went on much longer. And she was summoned at some
point. There was time for her to get there and it sounds like
she arrived AFTER Garner had been wrestled to the ground, AFTER
the chokehold had been applied.




She is also the one who called EMS and told them Garner was having
trouble breathing but he was OK
Somebody is lying here or they are having trouble keeping there story
straight. I guess I really need to find the original video. It sounds
like the one that exonerates Pantaleo has been buried by city hall
after it was used to get the charges tossed.


Ah yes, another grand conspiracy theory. When you have a video
that shows the Sgt was there and watching the chokehold, I'll
be happy to see it. Until then, I'll go with what I saw reported,
what I provided, was that she was summoned to the scene and
arrived AFTER the chokehold.






But even so, the NYPD says she must have a department trial at One Police Plaza for her failure to intervene after Garner was on the pavement."


If that's true, then you have your answer as to why she was only
docked 20 days pay. Like I said, without knowing all the details
there, it's hard to make a judgment. Pantaleo is very different.
He used a chokehold and the PD had banned them. And they banned
them because other people had already died in similar cases from
chokeholds. That's why the COP said "stay away from the neck"
Pantaleo didn't. And it wasn't like it was one on one with him
and Garner. There were four cops tackling Garner.

Hummmm black female cop gets a slap on the wrist and the Italian gets
the book thrown at him, let me think a minute.


You should think a minute. You're just like the Black Lies Matter
people, immediately turning to race, ignoring the facts! The facts,
as presented above, were that she arrived AFTER the chokehold, so
why are you trying to make it about race?






This was a political lynching of a cop, after the fact by an anti
police mayor to appease the black community and it is not shocking
that people who serve at his pleasure like the ME went along. Just
because he didn't appoint her doesn't mean he can't fire her.


BS. It was a cop who disregarded his orders, disregarded his training
and used a banned chokehold and the guy died. That's why they banned
them to begin with. capiche? You have ZERO evidence that any
political pressure was put on the MD who did the autopsy. In fact,
that claim makes no sense at all. If the city was out to get P,
why didn't they get him indicted? A prosecutor can get a grand
jury to indict a ham sandwich, yet they didn't. And for political
purposes, if you were going to try to obstruct, the obvious thing
would be to do the OPPOSITE, to have the autopsy find that he
just died of natural causes, that the chokehold had no effect.
Then the city looks like they did nothing wrong.


The BLM people were not going to accept that and DeBlasio did not want
a riot that early in his administration.


Then why didn't they make sure that P got indicted? Not hard,
since it's only the prosecutor presenting to a grand jury.
And the BLM people are going to accept that all that P gets
is he's fired? That makes sense? It couldn't be that they
just played out the process fairly, let the chips fall where
they may? Garner is dead, the cop used a banned chokehold,
he got fired. Nothing there that I see that's out of line,
out of the ordinary. And it sends a message to other cops,
that you can't disregard training, use potentially deadly
force, when a guy is just refusing to be cuffed and you have
4 cops on him.








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Default Florida stand your ground case conviction.

On 8/29/19 9:43 AM, trader_4 wrote:
The bad ass was Pantaleo who disobeyed his orders and training,
went rogue and used a chokehold, in a situation where it was totally
unnecessary. The head of police training testified to that.
I suppose he's a political appointee too? He testified that
it was a chokehold, that it was banned and that it was unnecessary.



It's real simple law and order. Resisting arrest never ends well for the do-bad...and that's as it should be.

A do-bad can ride to the precinct and get a lawyer or they can ride to the morgue. As a taxpayer, I prefer the do-bads ride to the morgue. LOL
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