wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:05:44 -0500, Arthur Conan Doyle
wrote:

Ralph Mowery wrote:

For heat pumps you can say that electricity is more than 100% efficient.

The heat transfered from the outside is more than the heat produced by
electricity if used as resistance heating.

True. However, heat pumps are decidedly more expensive than conventional
furnaces to install and maintain, so that does need to be considered.

If you live in a place where heat pumps actually work, you probably
have an A/C anyway. The incremental cost for the reversing valve is
minimal.

There's more involved than just a reversing valve.

"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:30:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 07:58:01 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:28:03 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

posted for all of us...



On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:51:39 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

the investment in panels
returned 30% the first year (federal tax break)

The "investment" didn't pay you back, the tax payers did ... with
borrowed money.

A point I was going to make; once again you beat me to the punch ;-)

Solar subsidies are welfare for the rich.

Not the rich so much as those who can afford to install them.

Excuse me, those rich enough to install them. That works.
It also excludes vast swaths of the population who either rent or who
couldn't come up with a thousand bucks if their life depended on it.

A huge percentage of Americans couldn't scratch together HALF of that

Must be why they walk everywhere because they can't afford any sort of
ar. - - -

wrote in message
news
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 22:02:55 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:30:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 07:58:01 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:28:03 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

posted for all of us...



On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:51:39 GMT, (Scott
Lurndal)
wrote:

the investment in panels
returned 30% the first year (federal tax break)

The "investment" didn't pay you back, the tax payers did ... with
borrowed money.

A point I was going to make; once again you beat me to the punch ;-)

Solar subsidies are welfare for the rich.

Not the rich so much as those who can afford to install them.

Excuse me, those rich enough to install them. That works.
It also excludes vast swaths of the population who either rent or who
couldn't come up with a thousand bucks if their life depended on it.
A huge percentage of Americans couldn't scratch together HALF of that
- - -

When my wife was selling A/C she was amazed at the number of people
living in gated communities in 3500 sq/ft houses with luxury cars in
the driveway who couldn't come up with $5000 and couldn't get a loan.

They must have been able to to get the luxury cars. They can't all be drug
dealers.

"Bob F" wrote in message
...
On 8/21/2019 11:13 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:51:39 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

the investment in panels
returned 30% the first year (federal tax break)

The "investment" didn't pay you back, the tax payers did ... with
borrowed money.


Just like the taxpayers ARE paying for the trillion or 2 per year tax
break for the ultra rich,

Clearly the half of US taxpayers who pay no income tax arent.

and the corporations that used it to enrich their executives by driving up
stock prices with buybacks using most of their part of it.

That also enriches the other shareholders.

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 23:43:08 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 22:20:09 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 22:02:55 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:30:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 07:58:01 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
om...
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:28:03 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

posted for all of us...



On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:51:39 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

the investment in panels
returned 30% the first year (federal tax break)

The "investment" didn't pay you back, the tax payers did ... with
borrowed money.

A point I was going to make; once again you beat me to the punch ;-)

Solar subsidies are welfare for the rich.

Not the rich so much as those who can afford to install them.

Excuse me, those rich enough to install them. That works.
It also excludes vast swaths of the population who either rent or who
couldn't come up with a thousand bucks if their life depended on it.
A huge percentage of Americans couldn't scratch together HALF of that
- - -

When my wife was selling A/C she was amazed at the number of people
living in gated communities in 3500 sq/ft houses with luxury cars in
the driveway who couldn't come up with $5000 and couldn't get a loan.
The whole kit and kaboodle was leveraged to the hilt - that's why so
many lost virtually everything in 08. In many cases they only "owned"
less than 10%.

My last car payment and my last mortgage payment were about the same
time - about 1992?. (at about age 40)
My last new car (actually my ONLY new one) was 1976.

Going for a mediteranean cruse in October.

We are blood brothers there. I own a lot of stuff and I don't owe
anyone. That is how I retired at 49.

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:22:51 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:05:44 -0500, Arthur Conan Doyle
wrote:

Ralph Mowery wrote:

For heat pumps you can say that electricity is more than 100% efficient.

The heat transfered from the outside is more than the heat produced by
electricity if used as resistance heating.

True. However, heat pumps are decidedly more expensive than conventional
furnaces to install and maintain, so that does need to be considered.

If you live in a place where heat pumps actually work, you probably
have an A/C anyway. The incremental cost for the reversing valve is
minimal.

There's more involved than just a reversing valve.


But the incremental cost on the line is minimal. Just because of the
economy of scale most small HVAC systems might be heat pump by default
and it is the special order to delete it. It is getting that way with
mini splits here now.

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:36:33 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
news
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 22:02:55 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:30:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 07:58:01 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
om...
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:28:03 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

posted for all of us...



On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:51:39 GMT, (Scott
Lurndal)
wrote:

the investment in panels
returned 30% the first year (federal tax break)

The "investment" didn't pay you back, the tax payers did ... with
borrowed money.

A point I was going to make; once again you beat me to the punch ;-)

Solar subsidies are welfare for the rich.

Not the rich so much as those who can afford to install them.

Excuse me, those rich enough to install them. That works.
It also excludes vast swaths of the population who either rent or who
couldn't come up with a thousand bucks if their life depended on it.
A huge percentage of Americans couldn't scratch together HALF of that
- - -

When my wife was selling A/C she was amazed at the number of people
living in gated communities in 3500 sq/ft houses with luxury cars in
the driveway who couldn't come up with $5000 and couldn't get a loan.

They must have been able to to get the luxury cars. They can't all be drug
dealers.
They were tapped out, those weren't NEW Benzes but they were still
paying for 2 more years on them.

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:39:15 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"Bob F" wrote in message
...
On 8/21/2019 11:13 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:51:39 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

the investment in panels
returned 30% the first year (federal tax break)

The "investment" didn't pay you back, the tax payers did ... with
borrowed money.


Just like the taxpayers ARE paying for the trillion or 2 per year tax
break for the ultra rich,

Clearly the half of US taxpayers who pay no income tax arent.

and the corporations that used it to enrich their executives by driving up
stock prices with buybacks using most of their part of it.

That also enriches the other shareholders.


Stock holders are scum, just ask Bob.
I am not sure where the capital comes without them tho.
I guess the fed can just print it.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:22:51 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:05:44 -0500, Arthur Conan Doyle
wrote:

Ralph Mowery wrote:

For heat pumps you can say that electricity is more than 100%
efficient.

The heat transfered from the outside is more than the heat produced by
electricity if used as resistance heating.

True. However, heat pumps are decidedly more expensive than conventional
furnaces to install and maintain, so that does need to be considered.

If you live in a place where heat pumps actually work, you probably
have an A/C anyway. The incremental cost for the reversing valve is
minimal.

There's more involved than just a reversing valve.

But the incremental cost on the line is minimal.

It isnt just the line, it's the other stuff too, and the cost isnt minimal.

Just because of the economy of scale most small HVAC systems might
be heat pump by default and it is the special order to delete it.

That's bull**** too.

It is getting that way with mini splits here now.

Bull**** it is. And they arent the low end of HVAC anyway.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:36:33 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
news
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 22:02:55 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:30:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 07:58:01 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
news:el7rlelds1jvamhiajamel0fs8fe6hj748@4ax. com...
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:28:03 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

posted for all of us...



On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:51:39 GMT, (Scott
Lurndal)
wrote:

the investment in panels
returned 30% the first year (federal tax break)

The "investment" didn't pay you back, the tax payers did ... with
borrowed money.

A point I was going to make; once again you beat me to the punch ;-)

Solar subsidies are welfare for the rich.

Not the rich so much as those who can afford to install them.

Excuse me, those rich enough to install them. That works.
It also excludes vast swaths of the population who either rent or who
couldn't come up with a thousand bucks if their life depended on it.
A huge percentage of Americans couldn't scratch together HALF of that
- - -

When my wife was selling A/C she was amazed at the number of people
living in gated communities in 3500 sq/ft houses with luxury cars in
the driveway who couldn't come up with $5000 and couldn't get a loan.

They must have been able to to get the luxury cars. They can't all be drug
dealers.

They were tapped out,

Dont believe that.

those weren't NEW Benzes but they were still paying for 2 more years on
them.

Dont buy that either with all of them.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:39:15 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"Bob F" wrote in message
...
On 8/21/2019 11:13 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:51:39 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

the investment in panels
returned 30% the first year (federal tax break)

The "investment" didn't pay you back, the tax payers did ... with
borrowed money.


Just like the taxpayers ARE paying for the trillion or 2 per year tax
break for the ultra rich,

Clearly the half of US taxpayers who pay no income tax arent.

and the corporations that used it to enrich their executives by driving
up
stock prices with buybacks using most of their part of it.

That also enriches the other shareholders.


Stock holders are scum, just ask Bob.
I am not sure where the capital comes without them tho.

Borrowed and bonds.

I guess the fed can just print it.

That isnt what happens with corps.

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:22:51 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


There's more involved than just a reversing valve.

I see, you STILL want to know whether you could win this game, my senile
punching bag! Guess how it will all end for you, you cretin! LOL

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:45:59 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


But the incremental cost on the line is minimal.

It isnt just the line, it's the other stuff too, and the cost isnt minimal.

Just because of the economy of scale most small HVAC systems might
be heat pump by default and it is the special order to delete it.

That's bull**** too.

It is getting that way with mini splits here now.

Bull**** it is. And they arent the low end of HVAC anyway.

In auto-contradicting mode again, you clinically insane senile pest?

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:54:02 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the clinically insane senile cretin's latest troll****

....and nothing's left!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:36:33 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

When my wife was selling A/C she was amazed at the number of people
living in gated communities in 3500 sq/ft houses with luxury cars in
the driveway who couldn't come up with $5000 and couldn't get a loan.

They must have been able to to get the luxury cars. They can't all be drug
dealers.

It's an American thing, senile Ozzietard ...and NONE of yours AT ALL, you
obnoxious Australian cretin!

--
FredXX to Rot Speed:
"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shipped the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:47:26 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the clinically insane auto-contradicting senile asshole's latest
troll****

....and much better air in here!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:27:44 +1000, jeikppkywk, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


Excuse me, those rich enough to install them. That works.
It also excludes vast swaths of the population who either rent or who
couldn't come up with a thousand bucks if their life depended on it.

A huge percentage of Americans couldn't scratch together HALF of that

Must be why they walk everywhere because they can't afford any sort of
ar. - - -

You mean somewhat like you keep trolling in all these ngs because you got
nobody AT ALL to talk to in real life, senile Ozzie cretin? BG

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:39:15 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

Just like the taxpayers ARE paying for the trillion or 2 per year tax
break for the ultra rich,

Clearly the half of US taxpayers who pay no income tax arent.

US taxpayers? NONE of yours, senile Australian asshole!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:48:51 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

Stock holders are scum, just ask Bob.
I am not sure where the capital comes without them tho.

Borrowed and bonds.

I guess the fed can just print it.

That isnt what happens with corps.

Amazing that this Yank KNOWS what an asshole, idiot and troll you are and
STILL keeps "discussing" with you! LOL No surprise the US is going down...

--
FredXX to Rot Speed:
"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shipped the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID:

On 8/21/19 11:08 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 8/21/2019 11:13 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:51:39 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

the investment in panels
returned 30% the first year (federal tax break)

The "investment" didn't pay you back, the tax payers did ... with
borrowed money.


Just like the taxpayers ARE paying for the trillion or 2 per year tax break for the ultra rich, and the corporations that used it to enrich
their executives by driving up stock prices with buybacks using most of their part of it.


Pretty hard to give a welfare democrat a tax break when they don't pay taxes anyway.

On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:01:35 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:

Â* 'Lectric here is around a dime a kw/hr all in , we heat water with it
. Propane varies , usually around $2-2.50 /gallon . But I don't care ,
we heat with wood and it's "free" - well not really , but gas to cut and
split plus my labor is cheaper than any other alternative out here . And
our woods are healthier for the culling I do .

How many cords do you use each year?

Cindy Hamilton

In article ,
says...

When my wife was selling A/C she was amazed at the number of people
living in gated communities in 3500 sq/ft houses with luxury cars in
the driveway who couldn't come up with $5000 and couldn't get a loan.



Many people like to impress. They get in over their heads. Several
reasons on the house. At one time in the late 1970's the home loans
were about 8 % many were talked into the variatable rate ones. They
went way up more than the wages did. Not sure where they topped out at,
maybe 12 or more percent. That makes the payments way more.

Some were talked into buying houses that were way more than they could
really afford.

All this left very little money for other things. If the loan officers
of things like the AC checked the bills and income, many could not
afford more loans. Not checking the income vers the bills was one
thing that made the housing market fail.

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 2:30:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:22:51 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:05:44 -0500, Arthur Conan Doyle
wrote:

Ralph Mowery wrote:

For heat pumps you can say that electricity is more than 100% efficient.

The heat transfered from the outside is more than the heat produced by
electricity if used as resistance heating.

True. However, heat pumps are decidedly more expensive than conventional
furnaces to install and maintain, so that does need to be considered.

If you live in a place where heat pumps actually work, you probably
have an A/C anyway. The incremental cost for the reversing valve is
minimal.

There's more involved than just a reversing valve.


But the incremental cost on the line is minimal. Just because of the
economy of scale most small HVAC systems might be heat pump by default
and it is the special order to delete it. It is getting that way with
mini splits here now.

You're correct, of course. Just to verify it, I just looked at the cost
of the eqpt for 3 ton Goodman AC 14 Seer and 3 ton Goodman Heatpump.
Both about $2300 within a hundred bucks of each other, which is nothing
since with installation around here you'd be looking at about 3.5X
that total from the contractor for replacement, a lot more for the
whole thing, ie ducts, for a new home. Heat pumps have gotten more
efficient in recent years too. The problem is the capacity. 3 tons
is 36K BTU, which is what a tiny gas furnace would be, if they even
make them that small. Even a 5 ton system is just 60K, my gas
furnace is twice that. So, the problem becomes sizing them for
colder climates. I guess it takes geothermal to get enough output,
not sure how much even those have. I know is you don't see
heatpump systems of any kind being installed here in the NYC area,
where it's not especially cold, unless it's some
tree hugger doing it outside the norm, cost be damned.

On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:55:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:13:13 -0500, Arthur Conan Doyle
wrote:

wrote:

That $2.50 was a "sale" that happens in the spring around here. It is
usually higher. Looking at a price citation on
https://fuelwonk.com/vendor/eia-flor...ne/36808/32801

It says $4.69. That makes your therms $4.26

Bummer. Definitely region specific. I know places in ag areas where propane
rarely goes over $1/gallon. It's used to dry grain and they go through thousands
of gallons a month.

The price is very volatile here. I see that $4 price a lot. I only use
it to run my generator these days Originally I got it for a pool
heater and I burned over 100 gallons in a few days, maybe a week. I
never turned the heater on again.

ROFL. Same thing goes on here. This has to be one of the biggest
fool scam things going. Seems just about all pools have a nat gas
pool heater sold here. I doubt anyone tells the owners the truth,
that even with nat gas, the costs to run a pool heater are crazy.
People see a pool heater that's the size of a minifridge and likely
think it can't use so much, not like a gas furnace to heat the house,
right? Wrong. These things are 300K, 400K Btus for a good size pool,
while the furnace for the house is 100K. Then you have the install
cost, larger gas service, running the gas pipes. Then they turn it
on, get one gas bill and 95% probably never use it again. I suppose
it's good for occasional use, like you're kids are having a pool
party and you want to heat it up for that.

And up here, you don't see solar being used for pools either. IDK why.
You'd think they would offer that as an option that actually can work
and be used economically. You would need space for the solar collectors,
which would be either the roof or someplace on the ground. There are
certainly people here that could be doing it, but I haven't seen one,
just the dopey gas pool heaters. Of course if you don't have ground
space, then you'd have to choose either solar electric or solar pool
for the roof.



As long as I can keep my tank topped up at the special deal price I am
good.,

Very happy to have NG here. My bills were cut by more than half eight
years ago with new 94% furnace.

In article ,
says...

You're correct, of course. Just to verify it, I just looked at the cost
of the eqpt for 3 ton Goodman AC 14 Seer and 3 ton Goodman Heatpump.
Both about $2300 within a hundred bucks of each other, which is nothing
since with installation around here you'd be looking at about 3.5X
that total from the contractor for replacement, a lot more for the
whole thing, ie ducts, for a new home. Heat pumps have gotten more
efficient in recent years too. The problem is the capacity. 3 tons
is 36K BTU, which is what a tiny gas furnace would be, if they even
make them that small. Even a 5 ton system is just 60K, my gas
furnace is twice that. So, the problem becomes sizing them for
colder climates. I guess it takes geothermal to get enough output,
not sure how much even those have. I know is you don't see
heatpump systems of any kind being installed here in the NYC area,
where it's not especially cold, unless it's some
tree hugger doing it outside the norm, cost be damned.






Heat pumps that work out in the air are very good in the areas where I
live. It seldom gets or stays very cold, say below 10 deg F. The heat
pumps work very well to about 25 or 30 deg F outside air temp. In a way
they are over 100% efficient as they put out more heat by transferring
it than just electricity would provide in say baseboard heat.

Around 20 deg F or lower the efficiency drops off and the electric heat
coils or 'emergency' heat comes on. One other thing is that if you
constantly turn the heat up and down, more than about 2 or 3 degreese
the heating coils come on and waste the money.

In areas where it gets below say 20 deg F and stays that way for long
periods of time , the air type heat pumps do not work very well if at
all.

A 2 1/2 or 3 ton heat pump will keep a 2000 sqft house warm with no
problem if it is insulated well in the area where I live.

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 08:30:49 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:55:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:13:13 -0500, Arthur Conan Doyle
wrote:

wrote:

That $2.50 was a "sale" that happens in the spring around here. It is
usually higher. Looking at a price citation on
https://fuelwonk.com/vendor/eia-flor...ne/36808/32801

It says $4.69. That makes your therms $4.26

Bummer. Definitely region specific. I know places in ag areas where propane
rarely goes over $1/gallon. It's used to dry grain and they go through thousands
of gallons a month.

The price is very volatile here. I see that $4 price a lot. I only use
it to run my generator these days Originally I got it for a pool
heater and I burned over 100 gallons in a few days, maybe a week. I
never turned the heater on again.

ROFL. Same thing goes on here. This has to be one of the biggest
fool scam things going. Seems just about all pools have a nat gas
pool heater sold here. I doubt anyone tells the owners the truth,
that even with nat gas, the costs to run a pool heater are crazy.
People see a pool heater that's the size of a minifridge and likely
think it can't use so much, not like a gas furnace to heat the house,
right? Wrong. These things are 300K, 400K Btus for a good size pool,
while the furnace for the house is 100K. Then you have the install
cost, larger gas service, running the gas pipes. Then they turn it
on, get one gas bill and 95% probably never use it again. I suppose
it's good for occasional use, like you're kids are having a pool
party and you want to heat it up for that.

And up here, you don't see solar being used for pools either. IDK why.
You'd think they would offer that as an option that actually can work
and be used economically. You would need space for the solar collectors,
which would be either the roof or someplace on the ground. There are
certainly people here that could be doing it, but I haven't seen one,
just the dopey gas pool heaters. Of course if you don't have ground
space, then you'd have to choose either solar electric or solar pool
for the roof.



As long as I can keep my tank topped up at the special deal price I am
good.,

Very happy to have NG here. My bills were cut by more than half eight
years ago with new 94% furnace.

Solar really just gets you about 10 degrees over average ambient air.
Up there that is not much help. Covering the pool will improve that
number some but as soon as you uncover it the temperature falls fast
if it is cool out.
Heat pumps are probably the best way to heat a pool but again if it is
cool out, you can't maintain the temperature without covering the
pool.

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 08:21:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 2:30:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:22:51 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:05:44 -0500, Arthur Conan Doyle
wrote:

Ralph Mowery wrote:

For heat pumps you can say that electricity is more than 100% efficient.

The heat transfered from the outside is more than the heat produced by
electricity if used as resistance heating.

True. However, heat pumps are decidedly more expensive than conventional
furnaces to install and maintain, so that does need to be considered.

If you live in a place where heat pumps actually work, you probably
have an A/C anyway. The incremental cost for the reversing valve is
minimal.

There's more involved than just a reversing valve.


But the incremental cost on the line is minimal. Just because of the
economy of scale most small HVAC systems might be heat pump by default
and it is the special order to delete it. It is getting that way with
mini splits here now.

You're correct, of course. Just to verify it, I just looked at the cost
of the eqpt for 3 ton Goodman AC 14 Seer and 3 ton Goodman Heatpump.
Both about $2300 within a hundred bucks of each other, which is nothing
since with installation around here you'd be looking at about 3.5X
that total from the contractor for replacement, a lot more for the
whole thing, ie ducts, for a new home. Heat pumps have gotten more
efficient in recent years too. The problem is the capacity. 3 tons
is 36K BTU, which is what a tiny gas furnace would be, if they even
make them that small. Even a 5 ton system is just 60K, my gas
furnace is twice that. So, the problem becomes sizing them for
colder climates. I guess it takes geothermal to get enough output,
not sure how much even those have. I know is you don't see
heatpump systems of any kind being installed here in the NYC area,
where it's not especially cold, unless it's some
tree hugger doing it outside the norm, cost be damned.



Heat pumps really only work well if it really doesn't get that cold.
They are perfect in North Florida. We just use resistance heat here
for the 100 hours or so a year that you need heat. My wife is
perfectly happy with the 1440w fireplace heater in the living room. We
have never turned the heat strips on in our air handler.

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 02:31:48 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:36:33 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
news
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 22:02:55 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:30:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 07:58:01 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
news:el7rlelds1jvamhiajamel0fs8fe6hj748@4ax. com...
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:28:03 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

posted for all of us...



On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:51:39 GMT, (Scott
Lurndal)
wrote:

the investment in panels
returned 30% the first year (federal tax break)

The "investment" didn't pay you back, the tax payers did ... with
borrowed money.

A point I was going to make; once again you beat me to the punch ;-)

Solar subsidies are welfare for the rich.

Not the rich so much as those who can afford to install them.

Excuse me, those rich enough to install them. That works.
It also excludes vast swaths of the population who either rent or who
couldn't come up with a thousand bucks if their life depended on it.
A huge percentage of Americans couldn't scratch together HALF of that
- - -

When my wife was selling A/C she was amazed at the number of people
living in gated communities in 3500 sq/ft houses with luxury cars in
the driveway who couldn't come up with $5000 and couldn't get a loan.

They must have been able to to get the luxury cars. They can't all be drug
dealers.
They were tapped out, those weren't NEW Benzes but they were still
paying for 2 more years on them.
If they are only still paying for 2 more years on them they've had
them for at least 3 - andthey are likely 8 years old.(original leesee
had them for 5 years)

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:11:08 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 08:21:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 2:30:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:22:51 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:05:44 -0500, Arthur Conan Doyle
wrote:

Ralph Mowery wrote:

For heat pumps you can say that electricity is more than 100% efficient.

The heat transfered from the outside is more than the heat produced by
electricity if used as resistance heating.

True. However, heat pumps are decidedly more expensive than conventional
furnaces to install and maintain, so that does need to be considered.

If you live in a place where heat pumps actually work, you probably
have an A/C anyway. The incremental cost for the reversing valve is
minimal.

There's more involved than just a reversing valve.


But the incremental cost on the line is minimal. Just because of the
economy of scale most small HVAC systems might be heat pump by default
and it is the special order to delete it. It is getting that way with
mini splits here now.

You're correct, of course. Just to verify it, I just looked at the cost
of the eqpt for 3 ton Goodman AC 14 Seer and 3 ton Goodman Heatpump.
Both about $2300 within a hundred bucks of each other, which is nothing
since with installation around here you'd be looking at about 3.5X
that total from the contractor for replacement, a lot more for the
whole thing, ie ducts, for a new home. Heat pumps have gotten more
efficient in recent years too. The problem is the capacity. 3 tons
is 36K BTU, which is what a tiny gas furnace would be, if they even
make them that small. Even a 5 ton system is just 60K, my gas
furnace is twice that. So, the problem becomes sizing them for
colder climates. I guess it takes geothermal to get enough output,
not sure how much even those have. I know is you don't see
heatpump systems of any kind being installed here in the NYC area,
where it's not especially cold, unless it's some
tree hugger doing it outside the norm, cost be damned.



Heat pumps really only work well if it really doesn't get that cold.
They are perfect in North Florida. We just use resistance heat here
for the 100 hours or so a year that you need heat. My wife is
perfectly happy with the 1440w fireplace heater in the living room. We
have never turned the heat strips on in our air handler.
Lots of ground source heat pumps up here in "the great white north"
- often with natural gas as the backup because the houses were
previously heated with gas. Only a small number of the coldest days
require supplemental heat in an average year.

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 11:36:18 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

You're correct, of course. Just to verify it, I just looked at the cost
of the eqpt for 3 ton Goodman AC 14 Seer and 3 ton Goodman Heatpump.
Both about $2300 within a hundred bucks of each other, which is nothing
since with installation around here you'd be looking at about 3.5X
that total from the contractor for replacement, a lot more for the
whole thing, ie ducts, for a new home. Heat pumps have gotten more
efficient in recent years too. The problem is the capacity. 3 tons
is 36K BTU, which is what a tiny gas furnace would be, if they even
make them that small. Even a 5 ton system is just 60K, my gas
furnace is twice that. So, the problem becomes sizing them for
colder climates. I guess it takes geothermal to get enough output,
not sure how much even those have. I know is you don't see
heatpump systems of any kind being installed here in the NYC area,
where it's not especially cold, unless it's some
tree hugger doing it outside the norm, cost be damned.






Heat pumps that work out in the air are very good in the areas where I
live. It seldom gets or stays very cold, say below 10 deg F. The heat
pumps work very well to about 25 or 30 deg F outside air temp. In a way
they are over 100% efficient as they put out more heat by transferring
it than just electricity would provide in say baseboard heat.

Around 20 deg F or lower the efficiency drops off and the electric heat
coils or 'emergency' heat comes on. One other thing is that if you
constantly turn the heat up and down, more than about 2 or 3 degreese
the heating coils come on and waste the money.

In areas where it gets below say 20 deg F and stays that way for long
periods of time , the air type heat pumps do not work very well if at
all.

A 2 1/2 or 3 ton heat pump will keep a 2000 sqft house warm with no
problem if it is insulated well in the area where I live.

You're in NC right? Sounds about right. By the time you get to NJ,
they really aren't viable. 3 ton is 36K BTU, my furnace is 120K.
I have a 5 ton AC, which would be 60K BTUS, too small, which is
why they have backup resistance heat and that would come into play
too much here. I wonder where they mostly disappear? North of DC?

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 12:05:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Solar really just gets you about 10 degrees over average ambient air.

That would be a huge benefit for most of the season. Early on it
would get it usable much earlier, it would allow use for maybe
another month at the end, and in between it would tune it to the
slightly higher temp you want. It also depends on how many collectors.
Want it hotter, just add more, they aren't that expensive, it's just
you need the room.



Up there that is not much help. Covering the pool will improve that
number some but as soon as you uncover it the temperature falls fast
if it is cool out.
Heat pumps are probably the best way to heat a pool but again if it is
cool out, you can't maintain the temperature without covering the
pool.

IDK, I'm not sure a heat pump is any better than cheap nat gas.
I've never seen a heat pump pool heater here.

In article ,
says...

You're in NC right? Sounds about right. By the time you get to NJ,
they really aren't viable. 3 ton is 36K BTU, my furnace is 120K.
I have a 5 ton AC, which would be 60K BTUS, too small, which is
why they have backup resistance heat and that would come into play
too much here. I wonder where they mostly disappear? North of DC?




Right, in the middle of NC.

Heat pumps work very well here. If I lived much north of here I would
probably install a heatpump if installing an AC. I doubt the cost would
be much different. They are about the same thing with a reversing valve.
Use it on the days it was above say around 25 to 30 deg F and switch to
some other type of heat when it got colder.

I am talking about the air type HP and not the ones that have coils in
the earth or wells.

The resistance heat that comes on when it is much below 25 F starts to
be very costly in many areas.

I don't know where the heat pumps start to dissapear,but there are
charts that show how cold and hot it is on the average over the US.
From this you can tell if the HP makes sense for the area.


The HP is often sized for AC. You want a unit that will run long enough
to take the humidity out of the air. That can make ballancing the HP
size somewhat difficult, especially where you would need a big one to
heat the house in a nothern climite.

On 8/22/2019 1:21 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

You're in NC right? Sounds about right. By the time you get to NJ,
they really aren't viable. 3 ton is 36K BTU, my furnace is 120K.
I have a 5 ton AC, which would be 60K BTUS, too small, which is
why they have backup resistance heat and that would come into play
too much here. I wonder where they mostly disappear? North of DC?




Right, in the middle of NC.

Heat pumps work very well here. If I lived much north of here I would
probably install a heatpump if installing an AC. I doubt the cost would
be much different. They are about the same thing with a reversing valve.
Use it on the days it was above say around 25 to 30 deg F and switch to
some other type of heat when it got colder.

I am talking about the air type HP and not the ones that have coils in
the earth or wells.

The resistance heat that comes on when it is much below 25 F starts to
be very costly in many areas.

I'm in FL now and it seldom gets below 40 here. My electric bill was
$70 for January. In CT it would have been closer to $100 plus the cost
of heating oil, another $150 or so. They work well in milder climates.
Remember some years back when the all electric house was touted as the
future? Yeah, not with the cold temperatures and high electric rates in
the Northeast.

On 8/22/2019 5:28 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:01:35 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:

Â* 'Lectric here is around a dime a kw/hr all in , we heat water with it
. Propane varies , usually around $2-2.50 /gallon . But I don't care ,
we heat with wood and it's "free" - well not really , but gas to cut and
split plus my labor is cheaper than any other alternative out here . And
our woods are healthier for the culling I do .
How many cords do you use each year?

Cindy Hamilton

Â* Depends on how cold it is , last year we burned about 5 cords . We're
still adjusting to increased space and as we're still working on the
house I expect the amount of wood needed will drop . I noticed last
winter that as I installed more sheetrock the consumption went down .
We're down to just the kitchen/dining area with no finished ceiling - it
is insulated though . It will get tongue and groove boards , I'm trying
to decide if I need plastic sheeting to block airflow heat loss too .
This is a vaulted ceiling that's over 11 feet to the peak because I felt
a regular 8' ceiling would feel oppressive - it's a single 24 x 24 foot
room . I'm pretty sure we lose more heat there than any other single area .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 2:32:10 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 8/22/2019 5:28 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:01:35 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:

Â* 'Lectric here is around a dime a kw/hr all in , we heat water with it
. Propane varies , usually around $2-2.50 /gallon . But I don't care ,
we heat with wood and it's "free" - well not really , but gas to cut and
split plus my labor is cheaper than any other alternative out here . And
our woods are healthier for the culling I do .
How many cords do you use each year?

Cindy Hamilton

Â* Depends on how cold it is , last year we burned about 5 cords .

That's a lot of wood. I shudder to think how much we'd need in Michigan.
Our heating costs are pretty low, though. Around $100/month for the
four coldest months. The air-conditioning is more expensive.

We're
still adjusting to increased space and as we're still working on the
house I expect the amount of wood needed will drop . I noticed last
winter that as I installed more sheetrock the consumption went down .
We're down to just the kitchen/dining area with no finished ceiling - it
is insulated though . It will get tongue and groove boards , I'm trying
to decide if I need plastic sheeting to block airflow heat loss too .
This is a vaulted ceiling that's over 11 feet to the peak because I felt
a regular 8' ceiling would feel oppressive - it's a single 24 x 24 foot
room . I'm pretty sure we lose more heat there than any other single area

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:53:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 12:05:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Solar really just gets you about 10 degrees over average ambient air.

That would be a huge benefit for most of the season. Early on it
would get it usable much earlier, it would allow use for maybe
another month at the end, and in between it would tune it to the
slightly higher temp you want. It also depends on how many collectors.
Want it hotter, just add more, they aren't that expensive, it's just
you need the room.



Up there that is not much help. Covering the pool will improve that
number some but as soon as you uncover it the temperature falls fast
if it is cool out.
Heat pumps are probably the best way to heat a pool but again if it is
cool out, you can't maintain the temperature without covering the
pool.

IDK, I'm not sure a heat pump is any better than cheap nat gas.
I've never seen a heat pump pool heater here.

They did the math at my wife's club and the heat pump won.

On 8/22/2019 1:40 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 2:32:10 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 8/22/2019 5:28 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:01:35 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:

Â* 'Lectric here is around a dime a kw/hr all in , we heat water with it
. Propane varies , usually around $2-2.50 /gallon . But I don't care ,
we heat with wood and it's "free" - well not really , but gas to cut and
split plus my labor is cheaper than any other alternative out here . And
our woods are healthier for the culling I do .
How many cords do you use each year?

Cindy Hamilton
Â* Depends on how cold it is , last year we burned about 5 cords .
That's a lot of wood. I shudder to think how much we'd need in Michigan.
Our heating costs are pretty low, though. Around $100/month for the
four coldest months. The air-conditioning is more expensive.


Â* You're right about AC costing more , just got our bill from the mail
box - our highest ones are June July and August .If I had to buy wood at
a hundred bucks a cord our total heat bill would be similar to yours ...
a qualifier here , much of the wood we burned last year was not seasoned
, I figure if it had been it would have been under 4 cords . I'm trying
to get ahead of that curve this year - I will be purchasing some
firewood , it'll be offcuts from a railroad tie operation at a lot less
than $100 a cord . It should give me enough of a boost to get the rest
of this year's and all of next year's wood cut/split/stacked .


We're
still adjusting to increased space and as we're still working on the
house I expect the amount of wood needed will drop . I noticed last
winter that as I installed more sheetrock the consumption went down .
We're down to just the kitchen/dining area with no finished ceiling - it
is insulated though . It will get tongue and groove boards , I'm trying
to decide if I need plastic sheeting to block airflow heat loss too .
This is a vaulted ceiling that's over 11 feet to the peak because I felt
a regular 8' ceiling would feel oppressive - it's a single 24 x 24 foot
room . I'm pretty sure we lose more heat there than any other single area .
You're right about the ceiling. Nobody wants to feel like they're living
in a cigar box.

Cindy Hamilton

Â* IMO that vaulted ceiling really adds a lot of character to the house
.. Our finish out is going to be quite retro , similar to the style of
the midtown Memphis houses constructed in the late teens and early
1920's . Plinth blocks and 3 piece baseboards (base , cap and shoe mold)
, door headers with crown mold (small) and other trim . Our master bath
has a clawfoot tub that was made in 1911 , the vanity is a solid oak
washstand that I have modified with a top set bowl andÂ* faux hand-pump
style faucet . I had to modify the top drawer for plumbing , but it's
still usable and functional . Bathrooms will get retro black and white
mosaic tiles , the rest of the house will get prefinished 3/4" solid oak
.. Oh , and all doorways will be minimum 36" cuz we ain't gettin' any
younger ... there are 2 French door units onto the deck big enough that
if I need to I can ride the Harleys right into the house . If I had to
pay labor for this project this place would be a 900 sf cracker box ...
but I managed to learn a little from a lifetime of construction work .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !

In article , says...

I'm in FL now and it seldom gets below 40 here. My electric bill was
$70 for January. In CT it would have been closer to $100 plus the cost
of heating oil, another $150 or so. They work well in milder climates.
Remember some years back when the all electric house was touted as the
future? Yeah, not with the cold temperatures and high electric rates in
the Northeast.



The all elecrtric houses are great. Mine is all electric.

The qualifier is you have to be in an area that is not much different
than in the middle of NC where I am or warmer in the winter and the
electric rates are not very high. As discussed the heat pump does not
work well much below 25 deg F. The resistance electric heat is way
expensive if used very much. I bet in the north where it stays below 20
deg much of the time there no way to use electric heat of any kind cost
wise.

I remember the so called Gold Madalion homes that were the big thing
around this area about 50 years ago. I may be remembering wrong, but
think when I was very little I was in someones house that had that
madalion on it. Then there were the commercials about heating with
oil and how inexpensive it was. The first oil I bought was around 1972
just before the big oil crisis. It was less than 20 cents per gallon
delivered. The very next time or two I filled up the tank I had sticker
shock. Not sure what it is now, probably over $ 2 per gallon.

Before that oil crisis it seemed the most houses had very little to no
insulation on it. Dad had his 6 room house worked over (it was built
before WW2) around 1960 and an oil furnace put in to replace two oil
burning stoves. I remember he saying it was a 100,000 btu unit. It did
do a good job of keeping the house warm even though there was no
insulation in the walls. Not sure about the cealing.

On 8/22/2019 4:52 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

I'm in FL now and it seldom gets below 40 here. My electric bill was
$70 for January. In CT it would have been closer to $100 plus the cost
of heating oil, another $150 or so. They work well in milder climates.
Remember some years back when the all electric house was touted as the
future? Yeah, not with the cold temperatures and high electric rates in
the Northeast.



The all elecrtric houses are great. Mine is all electric.

The qualifier is you have to be in an area that is not much different
than in the middle of NC where I am or warmer in the winter and the
electric rates are not very high. As discussed the heat pump does not
work well much below 25 deg F. The resistance electric heat is way
expensive if used very much. I bet in the north where it stays below 20
deg much of the time there no way to use electric heat of any kind cost
wise.

I remember the so called Gold Madalion homes that were the big thing
around this area about 50 years ago. I may be remembering wrong, but
think when I was very little I was in someones house that had that
madalion on it. Then there were the commercials about heating with
oil and how inexpensive it was. The first oil I bought was around 1972
just before the big oil crisis. It was less than 20 cents per gallon
delivered. The very next time or two I filled up the tank I had sticker
shock. Not sure what it is now, probably over $ 2 per gallon.


Down the street from me in CT was a small development of about 25
houses, all electric. About 24 of them converted to other forms of
heat. Electric was .21/kwh. Heating with resistance electric makes
no sens there.

Last year there I paid about $2.30 for oil. Few years back it topped at
$3+

Ralph Mowery wrote:

I remember the so called Gold Madalion homes that were the big thing
around this area about 50 years ago. I may be remembering wrong, but
think when I was very little I was in someones house that had that
madalion on it.

In the 70s in Chicagoland, Con Ed had a deal with home builders to promote "All
Electric" houses. Advertised how "clean" it was. Was about the time when
Braidwood and other nuclear reactors were popular. Builders loved it because it
made the appliances cheaper. As I recall, that program didn't last long once
electric bills started to skyrocket.

Northern Illinois gas had a similar program to encourage gas use. I can recall
the house we lived in had a gas driveway light. Essentially a pilot light with a
mantel, like a Coleman lantern. Ran 24/7. That got replaced with a traditional
electric lamp when gas prices spiked.