On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance
circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that.

My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen
or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having
said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for
bread. It has three prongs.



My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen.
We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought
sometime in the last 10 years.

The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small
appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee
pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs.

A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double
insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3
prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980
house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits.



My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles
and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen.
Ontario Canada
My google searches could only find the USA NEC history
not Canada
John T.
1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen
(4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must
use double pole GFCI breakers.
They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed.

Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits
in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the
breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost.

In article ,
says...

Good catch on the microwave, I missed that. I've never seen one that's
not 3 prong. Let's see what Ralph has to say on that.





I am not sure what I said about the microwave before. I looked at mine
that is around 20 years old or more, maybe 30 and it has the 3 prong
plug. I may have thought it only had 2 wires as I gave a quick look in
the kitchen and saw a receptical with 2 devices with 2 wires in it.
Turns out they are the toster oven and a can opener. The microwave was
pluged in behind it and out of sight before I moved it for a look.

In article ,
says...

The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small
appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee
pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs.

A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double
insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3
prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980
house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits.



My mistake, mine does have 3 wires. Looked at the wrong receptical. See
another post.

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance
circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that.

My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen
or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having
said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for
bread. It has three prongs.



My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen.
We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought
sometime in the last 10 years.

The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small
appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee
pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs.

A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double
insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3
prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980
house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits.



My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles
and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen.
Ontario Canada
My google searches could only find the USA NEC history
not Canada
John T.
1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen
(4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must
use double pole GFCI breakers.
They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed.

Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits
in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the
breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost.

GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as
you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box)
You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days.
I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4
have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at
least 3 duplexes or even 4.

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:57:37 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small
appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee
pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs.

A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double
insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3
prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980
house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits.



My mistake, mine does have 3 wires. Looked at the wrong receptical. See
another post.

That's OK I was wrong about the year the NEC required kitchen GFCIs
(it was 87 and the ones near the sink). At least we corrected our
mistake. ;-)

On 8/6/2019 10:47 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:26:38 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
...

You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward.
The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only
go in one way.
...

That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the
electric toaster...
I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't
a "pop-up"

Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type
like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was
introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required...
e

Although polarized outlets and plugs were introduced in the 1880s,
they were not popular at first and did not become standard until the
mid-20th century. The earliest National Electric Code (NEC) that we
can find that references polarized receptacles is the 1962 edition,
which required outlets to be both grounding (3-prong) and polarized.

I think that's pretty much what I had just said...

I was curious as to what style was on a 1940s appliance--I can't recall
ever having any such until well after then...just curious as would have
required here anyway to have replace the wall socket to use the device
or use a polarized adapter because there weren't any polarized sockets
at all until folks redid the house in the late 70s/early 80s. That
could have been pretty common back then...

--

On 8/5/19 12:29 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

[snip]

Or who are unforutnate enough that they can't afford a home and must
rely on their slum^H^H^H^Hlandlord to provide a safe evironment?

OT: I wonder now many people know about that method of showing control
characters. CTRL-H used to show that as you type.

On 8/5/19 1:52 PM, wrote:

[snip]

To be legal now, a piece of equipment with a non polarized plug needs
a 2 pole operating switch because you still need to switch the
ungrounded conductor. If there is no switch, like a wall wart, this is
not an issue.

One thing that has a non-polarized plug is a string of miniature
Christmas lights. These have 2 little fuses in them.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Rough work, iconoclasm, but the only way to get at truth." [Oliver
Wendell Holmes, Sr., 1860]

Jim B writes:
On 8/5/19 12:29 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

[snip]

Or who are unforutnate enough that they can't afford a home and must
rely on their slum^H^H^H^Hlandlord to provide a safe evironment?

OT: I wonder now many people know about that method of showing control
characters. CTRL-H used to show that as you type.

It almost never showed the sequence '^H' when you type. Instead, it
backspaced over the most recently typed character.

In article ,
says...

GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as
you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box)
You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days.
I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4
have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at
least 3 duplexes or even 4.



I am not sure how they are connected, but I seem to have plenty in the
kitchen. Two on one counter, two on another, one behind the
refrigerator that is for it only,one at the end of a bar that one end is
at a wall, two more near floor level that could be used.



Speaking of the Edison circuit reminds me of a problem at work. One
receptical had power, but as soon as anything was pluged into it and
turned on, the GFCI would trip. I finally found that whoever wired up
the room had ran a neutral from another circuit to that receptical and
that neutral to a different receptical that was paired with a different
breaker.

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 18:26:01 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as
you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box)
You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days.
I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4
have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at
least 3 duplexes or even 4.



I am not sure how they are connected, but I seem to have plenty in the
kitchen. Two on one counter, two on another, one behind the
refrigerator that is for it only,one at the end of a bar that one end is
at a wall, two more near floor level that could be used.


In one general area I have a can opener, toaster, food processor and 2
wall warts plugged in. The next duplex down the counter has the coffee
maker and a wall wart for the answering machine. Out of 8 in 4 feet I
have 1 empty slot.

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:52:41 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/6/2019 10:47 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:26:38 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
...

You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward.
The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only
go in one way.
...

That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the
electric toaster...
I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't
a "pop-up"

Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type
like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was
introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required...
e

Although polarized outlets and plugs were introduced in the 1880s,
they were not popular at first and did not become standard until the
mid-20th century. The earliest National Electric Code (NEC) that we
can find that references polarized receptacles is the 1962 edition,
which required outlets to be both grounding (3-prong) and polarized.

I think that's pretty much what I had just said...

I was curious as to what style was on a 1940s appliance--I can't recall
ever having any such until well after then...just curious as would have
required here anyway to have replace the wall socket to use the device
or use a polarized adapter because there weren't any polarized sockets
at all until folks redid the house in the late 70s/early 80s. That
could have been pretty common back then...
All the outlets installed in out (at the time) 88 year old house in
1957-58 were polarized. It was rewired in 1957-58 - had only one
outlet in the kitchen and one light in each room prior to that.
Rewired the whole house with grounded romex.

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance
circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that.

My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen
or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having
said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for
bread. It has three prongs.



My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen.
We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought
sometime in the last 10 years.

The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small
appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee
pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs.

A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double
insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3
prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980
house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits.



My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles
and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen.
Ontario Canada
My google searches could only find the USA NEC history
not Canada
John T.
1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen
(4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must
use double pole GFCI breakers.
They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed.

Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits
in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the
breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost.

GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as
you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box)
You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days.
I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4
have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at
least 3 duplexes or even 4.
Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen.
That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you
installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split -
impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit.

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 18:26:01 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as
you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box)
You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days.
I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4
have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at
least 3 duplexes or even 4.



I am not sure how they are connected, but I seem to have plenty in the
kitchen. Two on one counter, two on another, one behind the
refrigerator that is for it only,one at the end of a bar that one end is
at a wall, two more near floor level that could be used.



Speaking of the Edison circuit reminds me of a problem at work. One
receptical had power, but as soon as anything was pluged into it and
turned on, the GFCI would trip. I finally found that whoever wired up
the room had ran a neutral from another circuit to that receptical and
that neutral to a different receptical that was paired with a different
breaker.
Will do it every time - - -

On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 9:53:11 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance
circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that.

My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen
or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having
said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for
bread. It has three prongs.



My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen.
We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought
sometime in the last 10 years.

The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small
appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee
pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs.

A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double
insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3
prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980
house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits.



My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles
and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen.
Ontario Canada
My google searches could only find the USA NEC history
not Canada
John T.
1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen
(4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must
use double pole GFCI breakers.
They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed.

Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits
in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the
breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost.

GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as
you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box)
You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days.
I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4
have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at
least 3 duplexes or even 4.
Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen.
That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you
installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split -
impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit.

Is "split" a technical term in the code and what does it mean? If it's a shared neutral/Edison circuit, then why can't you support two 15a or two 20a loads, one on each half?

On 8/6/2019 8:49 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:52:41 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/6/2019 10:47 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:26:38 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
...

You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward.
The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only
go in one way.
...

That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the
electric toaster...
I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't
a "pop-up"

Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type
like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was
introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required...
e

Although polarized outlets and plugs were introduced in the 1880s,
they were not popular at first and did not become standard until the
mid-20th century. The earliest National Electric Code (NEC) that we
can find that references polarized receptacles is the 1962 edition,
which required outlets to be both grounding (3-prong) and polarized.

I think that's pretty much what I had just said...

I was curious as to what style was on a 1940s appliance--I can't recall
ever having any such until well after then...just curious as would have
required here anyway to have replace the wall socket to use the device
or use a polarized adapter because there weren't any polarized sockets
at all until folks redid the house in the late 70s/early 80s. That
could have been pretty common back then...
All the outlets installed in out (at the time) 88 year old house in
1957-58 were polarized. It was rewired in 1957-58 - had only one
outlet in the kitchen and one light in each room prior to that.
Rewired the whole house with grounded romex.

Still almost 20 yr too late for the 40s toaster, though!

Progressive altho not totally remarkable for by then...reminds me of the
"little house" in which I grew up (that was bought and moved to the farm
when the Army Air Force base for training B-26 pilots was built as it
was on that property west of town) was remodeled in early 50s...I'm sure
the addition which included a new kitchen was 3-wire but don't recall
that the rest of the house was rewired then.

Both houses were re-wired in '47/'48 when the REA power reached us but
that was done with 2-wire. Prior to that were on the 32VDC Delco
windcharger system...but grandparents house was wired K&T when built in
'14/'15 with an essentially modern layout of lights and outlets even
back then. There's still a fair amount of the old cloth wiring
abandoned in place...I don't know about the little house; when folks did
the big house and moved over, it was sold and moved to town so it was
located in its third location in about 40 years...

Reminiscing is interesting...

--

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:53:10 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance
circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that.

My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen
or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having
said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for
bread. It has three prongs.



My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen.
We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought
sometime in the last 10 years.

The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small
appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee
pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs.

A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double
insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3
prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980
house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits.



My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles
and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen.
Ontario Canada
My google searches could only find the USA NEC history
not Canada
John T.
1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen
(4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must
use double pole GFCI breakers.
They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed.

Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits
in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the
breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost.

GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as
you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box)
You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days.
I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4
have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at
least 3 duplexes or even 4.
Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen.
That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you
installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split -
impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit.

You only had one receptacle per circuit? What was the counter spacing
requirement? I can see the number of circuits required for a
reasonable sized kitchen soaring.

On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:13:18 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/6/2019 8:49 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:52:41 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/6/2019 10:47 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:26:38 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
...

You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward.
The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only
go in one way.
...

That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the
electric toaster...
I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't
a "pop-up"

Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type
like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was
introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required...
e

Although polarized outlets and plugs were introduced in the 1880s,
they were not popular at first and did not become standard until the
mid-20th century. The earliest National Electric Code (NEC) that we
can find that references polarized receptacles is the 1962 edition,
which required outlets to be both grounding (3-prong) and polarized.

I think that's pretty much what I had just said...

I was curious as to what style was on a 1940s appliance--I can't recall
ever having any such until well after then...just curious as would have
required here anyway to have replace the wall socket to use the device
or use a polarized adapter because there weren't any polarized sockets
at all until folks redid the house in the late 70s/early 80s. That
could have been pretty common back then...
All the outlets installed in out (at the time) 88 year old house in
1957-58 were polarized. It was rewired in 1957-58 - had only one
outlet in the kitchen and one light in each room prior to that.
Rewired the whole house with grounded romex.

Still almost 20 yr too late for the 40s toaster, though!

Progressive altho not totally remarkable for by then...reminds me of the
"little house" in which I grew up (that was bought and moved to the farm
when the Army Air Force base for training B-26 pilots was built as it
was on that property west of town) was remodeled in early 50s...I'm sure
the addition which included a new kitchen was 3-wire but don't recall
that the rest of the house was rewired then.

Both houses were re-wired in '47/'48 when the REA power reached us but
that was done with 2-wire. Prior to that were on the 32VDC Delco
windcharger system...but grandparents house was wired K&T when built in
'14/'15 with an essentially modern layout of lights and outlets even
back then. There's still a fair amount of the old cloth wiring
abandoned in place...I don't know about the little house; when folks did
the big house and moved over, it was sold and moved to town so it was
located in its third location in about 40 years...

Reminiscing is interesting...

The house I lived in from 54 to 65 was a "GI Bill house" (built in 54)
and at that time 3 wire Romex was required although they still used
1-15 (2 pin) receptacles. They were polarized but I don't remember
actually seeing a polarized plug cap until the late 70s. I know for
sure the "Hot Chassis" TVs and radios were not because the rule was if
you got shocked, flip the plug over.

On 8/7/2019 1:42 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:13:18 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/6/2019 8:49 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:52:41 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/6/2019 10:47 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:26:38 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
...

You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward.
The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only
go in one way.
...

That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the
electric toaster...
I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't
a "pop-up"

Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type
like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was
introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required...
e

Although polarized outlets and plugs were introduced in the 1880s,
they were not popular at first and did not become standard until the
mid-20th century. The earliest National Electric Code (NEC) that we
can find that references polarized receptacles is the 1962 edition,
which required outlets to be both grounding (3-prong) and polarized.

I think that's pretty much what I had just said...

I was curious as to what style was on a 1940s appliance--I can't recall
ever having any such until well after then...just curious as would have
required here anyway to have replace the wall socket to use the device
or use a polarized adapter because there weren't any polarized sockets
at all until folks redid the house in the late 70s/early 80s. That
could have been pretty common back then...
All the outlets installed in out (at the time) 88 year old house in
1957-58 were polarized. It was rewired in 1957-58 - had only one
outlet in the kitchen and one light in each room prior to that.
Rewired the whole house with grounded romex.

Still almost 20 yr too late for the 40s toaster, though!

Progressive altho not totally remarkable for by then...reminds me of the
"little house" in which I grew up (that was bought and moved to the farm
when the Army Air Force base for training B-26 pilots was built as it
was on that property west of town) was remodeled in early 50s...I'm sure
the addition which included a new kitchen was 3-wire but don't recall
that the rest of the house was rewired then.

Both houses were re-wired in '47/'48 when the REA power reached us but
that was done with 2-wire. Prior to that were on the 32VDC Delco
windcharger system...but grandparents house was wired K&T when built in
'14/'15 with an essentially modern layout of lights and outlets even
back then. There's still a fair amount of the old cloth wiring
abandoned in place...I don't know about the little house; when folks did
the big house and moved over, it was sold and moved to town so it was
located in its third location in about 40 years...

Reminiscing is interesting...

The house I lived in from 54 to 65 was a "GI Bill house" (built in 54)
and at that time 3 wire Romex was required although they still used
1-15 (2 pin) receptacles. They were polarized but I don't remember
actually seeing a polarized plug cap until the late 70s. I know for
sure the "Hot Chassis" TVs and radios were not because the rule was if
you got shocked, flip the plug over.

That's interesting...all the stuff Dad pulled from the old house is in a
box in the hayloft as well as an old bushel basket that's been there
since '48 that has most if not all the old Delco DC-rated stuff. I'll
have to double check but I don't think there's a single one that is
polarized socket.

I did think to look at the old toaster with the unpolarized plug at
breakfast this AM...it is a replacement hardware store plug, not
original. I do recall when I had it apart to rearrange the internals
after one of grandkids got excessively physical with prying to retrieve
a caught piece of bread that as somebody noted, the switch is
double-pole...I would presume they are all that given the lever action
it's trivial to build that way; harder not to.

--

On 8/7/2019 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:53:10 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:
....

Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen.
That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you
installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split -
impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit.

You only had one receptacle per circuit? What was the counter spacing
requirement? I can see the number of circuits required for a
reasonable sized kitchen soaring.

That just doesn't sound reasonable...something missing in the
translation here, methinks...

--

On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 14:42:42 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:13:18 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/6/2019 8:49 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:52:41 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/6/2019 10:47 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:26:38 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
...

You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward.
The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only
go in one way.
...

That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the
electric toaster...
I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't
a "pop-up"

Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type
like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was
introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required...
e

Although polarized outlets and plugs were introduced in the 1880s,
they were not popular at first and did not become standard until the
mid-20th century. The earliest National Electric Code (NEC) that we
can find that references polarized receptacles is the 1962 edition,
which required outlets to be both grounding (3-prong) and polarized.

I think that's pretty much what I had just said...

I was curious as to what style was on a 1940s appliance--I can't recall
ever having any such until well after then...just curious as would have
required here anyway to have replace the wall socket to use the device
or use a polarized adapter because there weren't any polarized sockets
at all until folks redid the house in the late 70s/early 80s. That
could have been pretty common back then...
All the outlets installed in out (at the time) 88 year old house in
1957-58 were polarized. It was rewired in 1957-58 - had only one
outlet in the kitchen and one light in each room prior to that.
Rewired the whole house with grounded romex.

Still almost 20 yr too late for the 40s toaster, though!

Progressive altho not totally remarkable for by then...reminds me of the
"little house" in which I grew up (that was bought and moved to the farm
when the Army Air Force base for training B-26 pilots was built as it
was on that property west of town) was remodeled in early 50s...I'm sure
the addition which included a new kitchen was 3-wire but don't recall
that the rest of the house was rewired then.

Both houses were re-wired in '47/'48 when the REA power reached us but
that was done with 2-wire. Prior to that were on the 32VDC Delco
windcharger system...but grandparents house was wired K&T when built in
'14/'15 with an essentially modern layout of lights and outlets even
back then. There's still a fair amount of the old cloth wiring
abandoned in place...I don't know about the little house; when folks did
the big house and moved over, it was sold and moved to town so it was
located in its third location in about 40 years...

Reminiscing is interesting...

The house I lived in from 54 to 65 was a "GI Bill house" (built in 54)
and at that time 3 wire Romex was required although they still used
1-15 (2 pin) receptacles. They were polarized but I don't remember
actually seeing a polarized plug cap until the late 70s. I know for
sure the "Hot Chassis" TVs and radios were not because the rule was if
you got shocked, flip the plug over.


My wife's 1957 GE clock radiuo stilkl has the original polarized plug
on it. The cord in my '46 philco (with a power transformer) is not
polarized. My old heathkit VTVM has a non polarized plug too - about
the 3 oldest electrical devices left in my house.

On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 14:34:27 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:53:10 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance
circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that.

My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen
or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having
said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for
bread. It has three prongs.



My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen.
We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought
sometime in the last 10 years.

The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small
appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee
pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs.

A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double
insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3
prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980
house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits.



My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles
and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen.
Ontario Canada
My google searches could only find the USA NEC history
not Canada
John T.
1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen
(4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must
use double pole GFCI breakers.
They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed.

Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits
in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the
breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost.

GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as
you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box)
You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days.
I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4
have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at
least 3 duplexes or even 4.
Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen.
That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you
installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split -
impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit.

You only had one receptacle per circuit? What was the counter spacing
requirement? I can see the number of circuits required for a
reasonable sized kitchen soaring.
The minimum was 2 splits - 4 circuits. -- actually just checked
1969 code and it just specifies 2 circuits dedicated to countertop
appliance receptacles - at least one in each working area - no 2
adjacent outlets connected to the same branch circuit. Grounded
polarized plugs were specified in 1969 code.

Looking at my 1966 code book I believe it is the last code that
specifically called out specifications for knob and tube wiring,
Grounding was required for all circuits, non-metallic sheathed cable,
open wiring, or knob and tube in 1966. The kitchen requirements were
the same in 1966

On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:19:14 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/7/2019 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:53:10 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:
...

Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen.
That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you
installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split -
impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit.

You only had one receptacle per circuit? What was the counter spacing
requirement? I can see the number of circuits required for a
reasonable sized kitchen soaring.

That just doesn't sound reasonable...something missing in the
translation here, methinks...
One outlet per 12 linear feet or part thereof of wall space for
general applications and minimum one per workspace in kitchen
according to both 1966 and 1969 codes for Ontario. (I have copy of
both from my dad who was an electrician)

On 8/7/2019 3:15 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 14:34:27 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:53:10 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance
circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that.

My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen
or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having
said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for
bread. It has three prongs.



My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen.
We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought
sometime in the last 10 years.

The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small
appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee
pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs.

A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double
insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3
prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980
house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits.



My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles
and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen.
Ontario Canada
My google searches could only find the USA NEC history
not Canada
John T.
1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen
(4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must
use double pole GFCI breakers.
They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed.

Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits
in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the
breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost.

GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as
you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box)
You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days.
I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4
have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at
least 3 duplexes or even 4.
Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen.
That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you
installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split -
impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit.

You only had one receptacle per circuit? What was the counter spacing
requirement? I can see the number of circuits required for a
reasonable sized kitchen soaring.
The minimum was 2 splits - 4 circuits. -- actually just checked
1969 code and it just specifies 2 circuits dedicated to countertop
appliance receptacles - at least one in each working area - no 2
adjacent outlets connected to the same branch circuit. Grounded
polarized plugs were specified in 1969 code.
....

It's been added to significantly since with no more than 24" to nearest
horizontally and every section of countertop 12" or more wide has to
have one irrespective. Plus a bunch of other lesser details...

But nothing requires adjacent receptacles to be on different circuits;
only again still the bare-bones minimum of 2 20-A small appliance
circuits in counting small-appliance circuits. Major appliances have to
have their own but that's independent of SA circuits.

That still seems an unreasonable requirement...you sure you're reading
that right?

--

On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:13:18 -0500, dpb wrote:



Reminiscing is interesting...

Yes. Reminds me of the only toast I had as a kid. It was from Grandma's Toast-o-Later.
Hadn't thought about that toaster in many years.

On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 15:29:38 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/7/2019 3:15 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 14:34:27 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:53:10 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance
circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that.

My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen
or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having
said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for
bread. It has three prongs.



My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen.
We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought
sometime in the last 10 years.

The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small
appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee
pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs.

A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double
insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3
prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980
house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits.



My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles
and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen.
Ontario Canada
My google searches could only find the USA NEC history
not Canada
John T.
1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen
(4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must
use double pole GFCI breakers.
They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed.

Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits
in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the
breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost.

GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as
you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box)
You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days.
I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4
have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at
least 3 duplexes or even 4.
Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen.
That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you
installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split -
impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit.

You only had one receptacle per circuit? What was the counter spacing
requirement? I can see the number of circuits required for a
reasonable sized kitchen soaring.
The minimum was 2 splits - 4 circuits. -- actually just checked
1969 code and it just specifies 2 circuits dedicated to countertop
appliance receptacles - at least one in each working area - no 2
adjacent outlets connected to the same branch circuit. Grounded
polarized plugs were specified in 1969 code.
...

It's been added to significantly since with no more than 24" to nearest
horizontally and every section of countertop 12" or more wide has to
have one irrespective. Plus a bunch of other lesser details...

But nothing requires adjacent receptacles to be on different circuits;
only again still the bare-bones minimum of 2 20-A small appliance
circuits in counting small-appliance circuits. Major appliances have to
have their own but that's independent of SA circuits.

That still seems an unreasonable requirement...you sure you're reading
that right?

Yup - read both 66 and 69. Has been changed now to requiring minimumof
2 countertop 20 amp circuits instead of 15 amp splits (30 amp
capacity) Need more now too - don't have a current code book handy but
your anything more than 12 inches sounds right.

The 20 amp outlets are "dedicated circuits" but no longer split -
still cannot have 2 on the same circuit adjacent (since only 1 duplex
on a circuit)

Microwave and fridge need to be on their own "dedicated" circuit as
well. Getting to be pretty big panels - with kitchen sub-panels
becoming pretty common.

On 8/5/2019 9:50 AM, badgolferman wrote:
wrote:

On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they
come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug
because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get
electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal
fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world.

Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance
circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that.

My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen
or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having
said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for
bread. It has three prongs.


Sometimes I give the old lady a fork or a prong.