On 7/29/2019 10:02 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 10:47:05 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/29/2019 5:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...

AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe,
where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent
ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe.
He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold
water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that
required anything beyond the cord and plug provided.
...

Au contraire, good buddy!

"Way back when" they all had an external ground connection supplied with
vendor instructions to attach to electrical ground.

That began when there was 2-wire service and continued well past NEC
changes requiring 3-wire as the existing base of existing was the
majority of installed base.

Looks like code required three prong, grounded receptacles starting in 1947
for washing machines and similar wet locations.

Perhaps, but how many do you think actually put in a new circuit with
ground when they brought that pretty new washing machine home vis a vis
those who used the 3:2 adaptor or just put a 3-prong outlet in the box
in place of the two-prong?

Manufacturers just supplied what they knew would be needed for modicum
of safety irrespective of Code. I can _probably_ even dig out of the
file box in the closet a manual from one of maybe 50-60 years ago...Dad
kept everything he ever bought and we've only tossed out a minor
fraction as the rest is kinda' entertaining or history (or, in some
cases, the item is still actually around and used, like the waffle iron
that is original from 1947 when first got REA and off the 32 VDC Delco
to AC service. I happen to know about it because had to rebuild the
cord so had looked at the book to see if it had any 3rd party ID for old
part number. Had some trouble finding a two-prong connector that still
used the same-sized pins as it...but did finally locate a source so it's
still waffling after all these years. )

I'm pretty sure the GE bought just a few years ago still has the
connecting point supplied with it but I'd have to go pull it out from
the wall to confirm.

--

That would be something, if it did. But even if it did, I bet there
is nothing in the install instructions that tells you to ground it to
a water pipe under any circumstances.

Well, if I can remember long enough after I get up to look when go back
outside...and no, the washer isn't outside, it's in the basement where
the work clothes change room is..

--

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 11:26:11 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/29/2019 10:02 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 10:47:05 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/29/2019 5:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...

AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe,
where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent
ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe.
He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold
water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that
required anything beyond the cord and plug provided.
...

Au contraire, good buddy!

"Way back when" they all had an external ground connection supplied with
vendor instructions to attach to electrical ground.

That began when there was 2-wire service and continued well past NEC
changes requiring 3-wire as the existing base of existing was the
majority of installed base.

Looks like code required three prong, grounded receptacles starting in 1947
for washing machines and similar wet locations.

Perhaps, but how many do you think actually put in a new circuit with
ground when they brought that pretty new washing machine home vis a vis
those who used the 3:2 adaptor or just put a 3-prong outlet in the box
in place of the two-prong?

Over the last 72 years? The vast majority of them, that's for sure.
And it seems that the lady in question here has a grounded three prong
receptacle based on the questions asked and that it's not supposed to have
an additional ground wire run to a cold water pipe.






Manufacturers just supplied what they knew would be needed for modicum
of safety irrespective of Code.

I seriously doubt washing machine manufacturers disregarded NEC.
See the example that follows.



I can _probably_ even dig out of the
file box in the closet a manual from one of maybe 50-60 years ago..

But we're talking about what some lady has TODAY and from the questions,
it appears to be a grounded three wire receptacle we're talking about.




..Dad
kept everything he ever bought and we've only tossed out a minor
fraction as the rest is kinda' entertaining or history (or, in some
cases, the item is still actually around and used, like the waffle iron
that is original from 1947 when first got REA and off the 32 VDC Delco
to AC service. I happen to know about it because had to rebuild the
cord so had looked at the book to see if it had any 3rd party ID for old
part number. Had some trouble finding a two-prong connector that still
used the same-sized pins as it...but did finally locate a source so it's
still waffling after all these years. )

I'm pretty sure the GE bought just a few years ago still has the
connecting point supplied with it but I'd have to go pull it out from
the wall to confirm.

--

That would be something, if it did. But even if it did, I bet there
is nothing in the install instructions that tells you to ground it to
a water pipe under any circumstances.

Well, if I can remember long enough after I get up to look when go back
outside...and no, the washer isn't outside, it's in the basement where
the work clothes change room is..

--

Here is an example from a GE owner's manual:

https://products.geappliances.com/Ma...49-90576-3.pdf


CIRCUIT €“ Individual, properly polarized and grounded
15 or 20 amp circuit breaker or time-delay fuse.
POWER SUPPLY €“ 2 wire plus ground, 120 Volt, single
phase, 60 Hz, alternating current.
Outlet Receptacle €“ Properly grounded 3-prong
receptacle to be located so
the power cord is accessible
when the washer is in an
installed position. If a 2-prong
receptacle is present, it is the
owners responsibility to have
a licensed electrician replace it
with a properly grounded 3-prong
grounding type receptacle.
Washer must be electrically grounded in accordance with
local codes and ordinances, or in the absence of local
codes, with latest edition of the NATIONAL ELECTRICAL
CODE, ANSI/NFPA NO. 70 or CANADIAN ELECTRICAL
CODE, CSA C22.1. Check with a licensed electrician if you
are not sure that the washer is properly grounded.

On 7/29/2019 10:53 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 11:26:11 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/29/2019 10:02 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 10:47:05 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/29/2019 5:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...

AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe,
where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent
ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe.
He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold
water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that
required anything beyond the cord and plug provided.
...

Au contraire, good buddy!

"Way back when" they all had an external ground connection supplied with
vendor instructions to attach to electrical ground.

That began when there was 2-wire service and continued well past NEC
changes requiring 3-wire as the existing base of existing was the
majority of installed base.

Looks like code required three prong, grounded receptacles starting in 1947
for washing machines and similar wet locations.

Perhaps, but how many do you think actually put in a new circuit with
ground when they brought that pretty new washing machine home vis a vis
those who used the 3:2 adaptor or just put a 3-prong outlet in the box
in place of the two-prong?

Over the last 72 years? The vast majority of them, that's for sure.
And it seems that the lady in question here has a grounded three prong
receptacle based on the questions asked and that it's not supposed to have
an additional ground wire run to a cold water pipe.
....

But, the conversation had morphed to a digression and remberances of
what used to be, no longer really related to the initial question...or
at least that's the part of the conversation I was referring to when
others noted there has been that grounding connection supplied and, I,
like them, am absolutely positive I remember the manufacturer suggestion
to attach to the water pipe. Used to have a little tag on the supplied
lead come with the machine.

By now, most certainly have been but I expect if one could actually go
look, one might be surprised at how many there might still be out there
where the house either hasn't sold or if sold not subject to
re-inspection that would actually require an update to original wiring.

This house is 100 yr old and other than Dad rewired it when they did it
over in late 70s, up until then it still was 2-wire and I know for a
fact the washer and dryer were both grounded that way until then...I
remember the clamp around the cold water pipe very well from my "yute"
in what was then grandparents' basement.

Manufacturers just supplied what they knew would be needed for modicum
of safety irrespective of Code.

I seriously doubt washing machine manufacturers disregarded NEC.
See the example that follows.

Again, you're talking now and relatively recently; them days was
different era...and I'm sure the actual instructions even then
"required" the same thing but the appliance vendor cannot force the end
user to follow those instructions...so at that time they did the next
best thing they could.

Since then, as you note the landscape has changed and the majority have
had to update old installations and more recent are already ok so the
need has pretty much gone away.

But, similar thing is still true for the 3-wire vis a vis 4-wire dryer
connection...Code requires four now, but how many (like here) are still
using the 3-wire and changed the pigtail rather than the outlet when
purchased new dryer?

--

In article , says...

AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe,
where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent
ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe.
He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold
water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that
required anything beyond the cord and plug provided.
...

Au contraire, good buddy!

"Way back when" they all had an external ground connection supplied with
vendor instructions to attach to electrical ground.

That began when there was 2-wire service and continued well past NEC
changes requiring 3-wire as the existing base of existing was the
majority of installed base.




I pulled the instalation guide for a Sears Kenmore washer I bought back
in 1987. It shows that if you only have a 2 wire receptical to use an
adapter for the 3 pin cord from the machine. Then it says that you must
use a # 18 or larger wire to the cold water pipe. It shows a screw to
attach the wire to. Then it shows that if you have anything in the
cold water line, it must be jumpered by a # 4 wire.

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 06:02:06 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:17:22 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:00:22 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.

But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed, but that's the way it should be.


the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.
Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing
machine located??

I didn't want to argue with Micky but that is usually the dryer and it
was a way around that 3 wire plug, as border line illegal as it was.
Typically you attached the green wire to the center screw in the
washer receptacle cover. The NEC has not talked about grounding to
cold water pipes since we were wearing tie dyed T shirts and bell
bottoms. (72 code? Maybe 75?)

Sorry about that. I guess I was thinking about a washing machine from
that time frame.

It suddenly occurs to me that my own machine has no separate ground
wire, and didn't when I moved in. Is it supposed to?
NO - never did. DRIERS did years ago - NOT washers

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:32:03 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one.

We are supposed to believe that all the washing machines being sold are
supposed to have an additional ground wire run over to a cold water
pipe, that the install instructions tell you that, but no connection
for it is provided by the manufacturers?
WTF? Maybe that's how the lady screwed hers, she ran a drill through
the case and into the wiring.




I bought a new washing machine about a month ago. Looking over the
instructions it mentions the machine is to be grounded . That is by the
3 prong power plug. There is no mention of a seperate ground wire. In
machines of the past there is usually a mention of a ground and maybe
even a clamp of sorts for the cold water pipe. As many homes now have
plastic pipe, it will do no good to put a ground wire to the pipe.

There is one minor mention of a code or permit for grounding. It simply
states to check with a qualified electrician if you are not sure the
washer is properly grounded.
Mabee referring to installation in older home without properly
grounded 3 wire outlets????????

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:46:55 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/29/2019 5:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...

AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe,
where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent
ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe.
He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold
water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that
required anything beyond the cord and plug provided.
...

Au contraire, good buddy!

"Way back when" they all had an external ground connection supplied with
vendor instructions to attach to electrical ground.

That began when there was 2-wire service and continued well past NEC
changes requiring 3-wire as the existing base of existing was the
majority of installed base.

I'm pretty sure the GE bought just a few years ago still has the
connecting point supplied with it but I'd have to go pull it out from
the wall to confirm.
The last 3 I've owned have not - and that goes back 40 years

But that is here in Canada - not in the undeveloped states of
america.
(that has GOT to be the meaning of the USA, as they are sure as hell
NOT United - - - -)

On 7/29/2019 12:26 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
....

But that is here in Canada - not in the undeveloped states of
america.
(that has GOT to be the meaning of the USA, as they are sure as hell
NOT United - - - -)

Beneath you, Clare...

But, try picking on us from the outside and see what happens.

--

On 7/29/2019 12:20 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 06:02:06 -0400, micky
wrote:
....

It suddenly occurs to me that my own machine has no separate ground
wire, and didn't when I moved in. Is it supposed to?
NO - never did. DRIERS did years ago - NOT washers

I'll disagree on that one, too. As Ralph M posted just above, I well
recall specifically being there and the instructions as he outlined.

I couldn't say when the general practice ended, but relatively recently
for us old codgers for whom 1980 was "just day before yesterday".

--

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 12:31:25 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/29/2019 10:53 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 11:26:11 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/29/2019 10:02 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 10:47:05 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/29/2019 5:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...

AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe,
where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent
ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe.
He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold
water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that
required anything beyond the cord and plug provided.
...

Au contraire, good buddy!

"Way back when" they all had an external ground connection supplied with
vendor instructions to attach to electrical ground.

That began when there was 2-wire service and continued well past NEC
changes requiring 3-wire as the existing base of existing was the
majority of installed base.

Looks like code required three prong, grounded receptacles starting in 1947
for washing machines and similar wet locations.

Perhaps, but how many do you think actually put in a new circuit with
ground when they brought that pretty new washing machine home vis a vis
those who used the 3:2 adaptor or just put a 3-prong outlet in the box
in place of the two-prong?

Over the last 72 years? The vast majority of them, that's for sure.
And it seems that the lady in question here has a grounded three prong
receptacle based on the questions asked and that it's not supposed to have
an additional ground wire run to a cold water pipe.
...

But, the conversation had morphed to a digression and remberances of
what used to be, no longer really related to the initial question.

Not exactly. Micky told the OP that the washer under discussion needed
a ground wire from the frame to a cold water pipe. And if they had
followed that or someone else had decided it was a good idea, like
Fretwell pointed out, the fault in the washer, assuming there is one,
could have energized not only the washer case but parts of the water
system, eg that bath faucets. No one knows what sections have plastic
and if you have someone doing it that doesn't understand what they are
doing, it could make it worse.





...or
at least that's the part of the conversation I was referring to when
others noted there has been that grounding connection supplied and, I,
like them, am absolutely positive I remember the manufacturer suggestion
to attach to the water pipe. Used to have a little tag on the supplied
lead come with the machine.

By now, most certainly have been but I expect if one could actually go
look, one might be surprised at how many there might still be out there
where the house either hasn't sold or if sold not subject to
re-inspection that would actually require an update to original wiring.

This house is 100 yr old and other than Dad rewired it when they did it
over in late 70s, up until then it still was 2-wire and I know for a
fact the washer and dryer were both grounded that way until then...I
remember the clamp around the cold water pipe very well from my "yute"
in what was then grandparents' basement.

Manufacturers just supplied what they knew would be needed for modicum
of safety irrespective of Code.

I seriously doubt washing machine manufacturers disregarded NEC.
See the example that follows.

Again, you're talking now and relatively recently; them days was
different era...and I'm sure the actual instructions even then
"required" the same thing but the appliance vendor cannot force the end
user to follow those instructions...so at that time they did the next
best thing they could.

Since then, as you note the landscape has changed and the majority have
had to update old installations and more recent are already ok so the
need has pretty much gone away.

But, similar thing is still true for the 3-wire vis a vis 4-wire dryer
connection...Code requires four now, but how many (like here) are still
using the 3-wire and changed the pigtail rather than the outlet when
purchased new dryer?

--

You can still do that today, it's code compliant for receptacles wired
before the code changed.

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On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 13:34:05 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

"Arlen G. Holder" writes:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?


Using the correct terminology:

* Grounded Conductor
* Grounding Conductor

The former is bonded to ground at the service entrance (or pole pig) and provides
the so-called "neutral" conductor for the two current carrying conductors
in a normal 240VAC north american residential supply on 120VAC circuits.

The latter is a dedicated conductor connected to a grounding electrode
at the service entrance and provides an emergency safety path. Typically
metal parts of an appliance are bonded to the grounding conductor to
prevent people from becoming the ground path if the metal parts are
accidentally energized.

A lot of folks at NFPA are trying to get "Bonding" used for the
grounding conductor.

In article ,
says...

Sorry about that. I guess I was thinking about a washing machine from
that time frame.

It suddenly occurs to me that my own machine has no separate ground
wire, and didn't when I moved in. Is it supposed to?
NO - never did. DRIERS did years ago - NOT washers



I don't recall dryers ever needing a seperate ground wire to th ewater
pipe in the US. They did have a strap where the wires come into the
dryer. If a 3 wire plug was used, you connected the frame to the
neutral of the 3 wires comming into the dryer with this strap. If a 4
wire cord you did not connect the frame to the neutral, but to the
ground wire of the 4 wire plug.

It was the washing machines that recommended the ground wire to the cold
water pipe and frame of the machine just as I mentioned above from just
looking at an old instalation booklet I just threw out as I no longer
have that machine.

In article , says...

But that is here in Canada - not in the undeveloped states of
america.
(that has GOT to be the meaning of the USA, as they are sure as hell
NOT United - - - -)

Beneath you, Clare...

But, try picking on us from the outside and see what happens.




All but 2 states are united (connected) Alaska and Hawaii. The states
are like some families. They may even fight with each other,but let an
outsider start something and see how quickly they join. Like in WW2.

On 7/29/2019 1:10 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 12:31:25 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
....

But, the conversation had morphed to a digression and remberances of
what used to be, no longer really related to the initial question.

Not exactly. Micky told the OP that the washer under discussion needed
a ground wire from the frame to a cold water pipe. And if they had
followed that or someone else had decided it was a good idea, like
Fretwell pointed out, the fault in the washer, assuming there is one,
could have energized not only the washer case but parts of the water
system, eg that bath faucets. No one knows what sections have plastic
and if you have someone doing it that doesn't understand what they are
doing, it could make it worse.

Well, that _started_ the digression, yes...but at least one other had
already commented about the "used to be" essentially independent when I
added the above...

It's immaterial pretty-much in the scheme of the world's affairs...

--

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:49:33 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/29/2019 12:20 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 06:02:06 -0400, micky
wrote:
...

It suddenly occurs to me that my own machine has no separate ground
wire, and didn't when I moved in. Is it supposed to?
NO - never did. DRIERS did years ago - NOT washers

I'll disagree on that one, too. As Ralph M posted just above, I well
recall specifically being there and the instructions as he outlined.

I couldn't say when the general practice ended, but relatively recently
for us old codgers for whom 1980 was "just day before yesterday".
I can still remember when washing machines only has 2 wire plugs -
or even a kick-start iron horse.

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 15:12:19 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 13:34:05 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

"Arlen G. Holder" writes:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?


Using the correct terminology:

* Grounded Conductor
* Grounding Conductor

The former is bonded to ground at the service entrance (or pole pig) and provides
the so-called "neutral" conductor for the two current carrying conductors
in a normal 240VAC north american residential supply on 120VAC circuits.

The latter is a dedicated conductor connected to a grounding electrode
at the service entrance and provides an emergency safety path. Typically
metal parts of an appliance are bonded to the grounding conductor to
prevent people from becoming the ground path if the metal parts are
accidentally energized.

A lot of folks at NFPA are trying to get "Bonding" used for the
grounding conductor.
But "bonding" is the tem for connecting neutral to ground and tying
all grounds in a grounding system together.

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 21:10:47 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 15:12:19 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 13:34:05 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

"Arlen G. Holder" writes:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?


Using the correct terminology:

* Grounded Conductor
* Grounding Conductor

The former is bonded to ground at the service entrance (or pole pig) and provides
the so-called "neutral" conductor for the two current carrying conductors
in a normal 240VAC north american residential supply on 120VAC circuits.

The latter is a dedicated conductor connected to a grounding electrode
at the service entrance and provides an emergency safety path. Typically
metal parts of an appliance are bonded to the grounding conductor to
prevent people from becoming the ground path if the metal parts are
accidentally energized.

A lot of folks at NFPA are trying to get "Bonding" used for the
grounding conductor.
But "bonding" is the tem for connecting neutral to ground and tying
all grounds in a grounding system together.

Exactly and that is what the green wire does. (EGC) It is all part of
the "grounding system", or that is the current thinking in some
circles.
Not to be confused with the "grounding electrode system".

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 2:30:06 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 21:10:47 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 15:12:19 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 13:34:05 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

"Arlen G. Holder" writes:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?


Using the correct terminology:

* Grounded Conductor
* Grounding Conductor

The former is bonded to ground at the service entrance (or pole pig) and provides
the so-called "neutral" conductor for the two current carrying conductors
in a normal 240VAC north american residential supply on 120VAC circuits.

The latter is a dedicated conductor connected to a grounding electrode
at the service entrance and provides an emergency safety path. Typically
metal parts of an appliance are bonded to the grounding conductor to
prevent people from becoming the ground path if the metal parts are
accidentally energized.

A lot of folks at NFPA are trying to get "Bonding" used for the
grounding conductor.
But "bonding" is the tem for connecting neutral to ground and tying
all grounds in a grounding system together.

Exactly and that is what the green wire does. (EGC) It is all part of
the "grounding system", or that is the current thinking in some
circles.
Not to be confused with the "grounding electrode system".

You know what's interesting? What happened to Arlen? Usually one of his
threads, he's half the posts and it becomes a 300 post thread. This time,
it's been a one hit wonder. Maybe he got electrocuted? Or died mounting
tires in his driveway in 100F heat?

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 11:53:11 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:


Here is an example from a GE owner's manual:

https://products.geappliances.com/Ma...49-90576-3.pdf


CIRCUIT €“ Individual, properly polarized and grounded
15 or 20 amp circuit breaker or time-delay fuse.
POWER SUPPLY €“ 2 wire plus ground, 120 Volt, single
phase, 60 Hz, alternating current.

Outlet Receptacle €“ Properly grounded 3-prong
receptacle to be located so
the power cord is accessible
when the washer is in an
installed position. If a 2-prong
receptacle is present, it is the
owners responsibility to have
a licensed electrician replace it
with a properly grounded 3-prong
grounding type receptacle.
Washer must be electrically grounded in accordance with
local codes and ordinances, or in the absence of local
codes, with latest edition of the NATIONAL ELECTRICAL
CODE, ANSI/NFPA NO. 70 or CANADIAN ELECTRICAL
CODE, CSA C22.1. Check with a licensed electrician if you
are not sure that the washer is properly grounded.



I was thinking about this again and I wonder why the manufacturers don't
just tell you that if you have a two prong receptacle, another acceptable
option is to install a GFCI receptacle? That would be a lot easier
than running a new circuit with ground.

On 7/31/2019 11:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
....

I was thinking about this again and I wonder why the manufacturers don't
just tell you that if you have a two prong receptacle, another acceptable
option is to install a GFCI receptacle? That would be a lot easier
than running a new circuit with ground.

Their lawyers haven't the background to know they exist yet seems plausible?

BTW, I did check -- that new(ish) GE washer _does_ have a green screw on
the back of the case as I was thinking I recalled--I remember there
being a ground wire supplied, though.

I also looked on the new ones sitting on the floor at Menards when was
there the other day -- none of those did have the provision so seems to
have now gone away indeed.

I don't recall just when we did buy this one -- within 10 years though
I'm certain altho the local Sears catalog store from whence it came has
been gone about 3-4 by now. Can't keep track of time any more--things
go by way too quickly it seems--now what the folks meant when we were
kids and couldn't understand the concept. That's a universal
experience/truth too, it seems.

--

On 7/31/19 11:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

I was thinking about this again and I wonder why the manufacturers don't
just tell you that if you have a two prong receptacle, another acceptable
option is to install a GFCI receptacle? That would be a lot easier
than running a new circuit with ground.

A GFCI receptacle provides some of the same protection as ground. It
does NOT provide ground.

BTW, I never would have believed it, but some people claim a GFCI
provides ground.

--
"Access denied. Thought you could get in?"

On 7/31/19 2:15 PM, dpb wrote:

[snip]

I don't recall just when we did buy this one -- within 10 years though
I'm certain altho the local Sears catalog store from whence it came has
been gone about 3-4 by now.Â* Can't keep track of time any more--things
go by way too quickly it seems--now what the folks meant when we were
kids and couldn't understand the concept.Â* That's a universal
experience/truth too, it seems.

I've lived here for 31 years. During that time 3 Sears catalog stores
have come and gone.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"God is a divider, not a uniter."

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:50:32 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 7/31/19 11:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

I was thinking about this again and I wonder why the manufacturers don't
just tell you that if you have a two prong receptacle, another acceptable
option is to install a GFCI receptacle? That would be a lot easier
than running a new circuit with ground.

A GFCI receptacle provides some of the same protection as ground. It
does NOT provide ground.

BTW, I never would have believed it, but some people claim a GFCI
provides ground.

What a GFCI will do is make a marginal ground effective to open the
GFCI in a fault.

On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 14:26:17 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:50:32 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 7/31/19 11:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

I was thinking about this again and I wonder why the manufacturers don't
just tell you that if you have a two prong receptacle, another acceptable
option is to install a GFCI receptacle? That would be a lot easier
than running a new circuit with ground.

A GFCI receptacle provides some of the same protection as ground. It
does NOT provide ground.

BTW, I never would have believed it, but some people claim a GFCI
provides ground.

What a GFCI will do is make a marginal ground effective to open the
GFCI in a fault.
More accurately, a GFCI provides protection similar to the
protection provided by a functional ground in the event of an
electrical malfunction in a device plugged into the outlet.

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 3:51:12 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 14:26:17 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:50:32 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 7/31/19 11:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

I was thinking about this again and I wonder why the manufacturers don't
just tell you that if you have a two prong receptacle, another acceptable
option is to install a GFCI receptacle? That would be a lot easier
than running a new circuit with ground.

A GFCI receptacle provides some of the same protection as ground. It
does NOT provide ground.

BTW, I never would have believed it, but some people claim a GFCI
provides ground.

What a GFCI will do is make a marginal ground effective to open the
GFCI in a fault.
More accurately, a GFCI provides protection similar to the
protection provided by a functional ground in the event of an
electrical malfunction in a device plugged into the outlet.

Better protection, I would say. You could have a 10 amp short to the metal case and with a ground, the breaker won't trip and you could have a fire. With a gfci 6ma and it trips.

On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 15:51:09 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 14:26:17 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:50:32 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 7/31/19 11:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

I was thinking about this again and I wonder why the manufacturers don't
just tell you that if you have a two prong receptacle, another acceptable
option is to install a GFCI receptacle? That would be a lot easier
than running a new circuit with ground.

A GFCI receptacle provides some of the same protection as ground. It
does NOT provide ground.

BTW, I never would have believed it, but some people claim a GFCI
provides ground.

What a GFCI will do is make a marginal ground effective to open the
GFCI in a fault.
More accurately, a GFCI provides protection similar to the
protection provided by a functional ground in the event of an
electrical malfunction in a device plugged into the outlet

The difference is a grounding path that provides 1000 ohms or so to
the MBJ is not much help in clearing a fault with a 15 or 20a breaker
but it will open a GFCI.

On 8/1/2019 4:03 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 3:51:12 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 14:26:17 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:50:32 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 7/31/19 11:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

I was thinking about this again and I wonder why the manufacturers don't
just tell you that if you have a two prong receptacle, another acceptable
option is to install a GFCI receptacle? That would be a lot easier
than running a new circuit with ground.
A GFCI receptacle provides some of the same protection as ground. It
does NOT provide ground.

BTW, I never would have believed it, but some people claim a GFCI
provides ground.
What a GFCI will do is make a marginal ground effective to open the
GFCI in a fault.
More accurately, a GFCI provides protection similar to the
protection provided by a functional ground in the event of an
electrical malfunction in a device plugged into the outlet.
Better protection, I would say. You could have a 10 amp short to the metal case and with a ground, the breaker won't trip and you could have a fire. With a gfci 6ma and it trips.


The nice thing about AFCI/GFCIs is that they trip when your mandatory fire sprinklers go off.Â* You can never have too many $afety device$ in your home.Â* Remember, they're for the kids.

You got me curious so I just looked.

My ancient Maytag washer has a clamp for a ground wire on the back. My water supply has a clamp and a ground wire on it (pipes are copper in this 1962 house.) I don't remember when I bought the washer but it was probably around 1992.

Second thing, we've never confirmed the OP washer is plugged into a three prong outlet. It very well might be a two prong and they've used an adapter.. The reason I bring that up is some years ago I was working in a paper factory and I got a shock from one of the office computers. The outlet was wired backwards, there was no safety ground (they assumed the conduit was enough, but it wasn't), and the case was hot. Hooking up a cable I had one hand on the computer and the other on a grounded connection, and I got that old familiar tingle. The PC ran fine hooked up either way.

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 9:14:54 AM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
You got me curious so I just looked.

My ancient Maytag washer has a clamp for a ground wire on the back. My water supply has a clamp and a ground wire on it (pipes are copper in this 1962 house.) I don't remember when I bought the washer but it was probably around 1992.

Yes, I think we've confirmed that washers did come with attachment
points for connection to a separate ground, at least up until some
point in time. Not sure what you're referring to about the copper
water pipe having a ground wire, but you probably mean that it's
grounded to the system at the panel, which it should be.




Second thing, we've never confirmed the OP washer is plugged into a three prong outlet. It very well might be a two prong and they've used an adapter.

+1
Old Arlen has gone missing. Usually there are 100 posts by now.




The reason I bring that up is some years ago I was working in a paper factory and I got a shock from one of the office computers. The outlet was wired backwards, there was no safety ground (they assumed the conduit was enough, but it wasn't),


It's not an assumption, metal conduit is allowed by code to serve
as the grounding conductor. But like everything else, you can
manage to screw it up and if you can reverse hot and neutral
you surely can screw the ground.



and the case was hot. Hooking up a cable I had one hand on the computer and the other on a grounded connection, and I got that old familiar tingle. The PC ran fine hooked up either way.


This is what gets people killed, multiple faults and/or things
wired incorrectly. The PC had a fault, ie the case should not be
hot just because hot and neutral were reversed. The wiring was
done wrong with no ground. Fortunately such situations are
apparently rare. It also shows why GFCI are a good idea.