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Default Inverter generator Do I need that?

I'm considering buying a generator. Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet. Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane. AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help. But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen. I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k. I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.
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On 5/24/19 7:09 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I'm considering buying a generator.Â* Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet.Â* Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane.Â* AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help.Â* But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen.Â* I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k.Â* I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.


Thing I wonder about is you need to keep enough gas on hand to run the
thing, possibly for a good while.

The gas gotta stay fresh- and storing a lot of it isn't safe. I know
there are stabilizers you can add to help keep fresh- but I wonder how
well they actually work- and how long they last.

If you don't have a supply of gas stored and the problem/outage is
widespread, local gas stations won't be able to pump gas and/or you may
not be able to drive to one due to road conditions.

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Default Inverter generator Do I need that?

On 5/24/19 6:22 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 5/24/19 7:09 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I'm considering buying a generator.Â* Just a portable that would keep
the refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet.Â* Nothing of higher
power demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane.Â* AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out
lines are underground so that help.Â* But stuff happens. I'm in Florida
now and they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen.Â* I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k.Â* I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000
watts should handle my needs.


Thing I wonder about is you need to keep enough gas on hand to run the
thing, possibly for a good while.

The gas gotta stay fresh- and storing a lot of it isn't safe. I know
there are stabilizers you can add to help keep fresh- but I wonder how
well they actually work- and how long they last.

If you don't have a supply of gas stored and the problem/outage is
widespread, local gas stations won't be able to pump gas and/or you may
not be able to drive to one due to road conditions.

Dual fuel might not be a bad idea.
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On 5/24/2019 7:22 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 5/24/19 7:09 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I'm considering buying a generator.Â* Just a portable that would keep
the refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet.Â* Nothing of higher
power demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane.Â* AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out
lines are underground so that help.Â* But stuff happens. I'm in Florida
now and they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen.Â* I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k.Â* I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000
watts should handle my needs.


Thing I wonder about is you need to keep enough gas on hand to run the
thing, possibly for a good while.

The gas gotta stay fresh- and storing a lot of it isn't safe. I know
there are stabilizers you can add to help keep fresh- but I wonder how
well they actually work- and how long they last.

If you don't have a supply of gas stored and the problem/outage is
widespread, local gas stations won't be able to pump gas and/or you may
not be able to drive to one due to road conditions.

My stabilized gas will last over 2 years. If can is not sealed or gas
exposed at length to air the stabilizer will not last as long.

It is a pain to store gas but if I had natural gas service I would run
the generator on that.

When I got my generator I put in a transfer panel to handle circuits I
needed like the well, furnace, refrigerator and freezer. I believe they
have smart systems today that can handle the whole house as long as
everything is not on at once so they manage it as such.
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Default Inverter generator Do I need that?

On Fri, 24 May 2019 19:22:57 -0400, Wade Garrett
wrote:

If you don't have a supply of gas stored and the problem/outage is
widespread, local gas stations won't be able to pump gas and/or you may
not be able to drive to one due to road conditions.


IIRC Florida may now require gas stations to have generators so pump
perorate. I believe FL passed a law related to evacuation routes.
Road conditions is another concern as you say.


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On Fri, 24 May 2019 17:35:53 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 24 May 2019 19:22:57 -0400, Wade Garrett
wrote:

If you don't have a supply of gas stored and the problem/outage is
widespread, local gas stations won't be able to pump gas and/or you may
not be able to drive to one due to road conditions.


IIRC Florida may now require gas stations to have generators so pump
perorate. I believe FL passed a law related to evacuation routes.
Road conditions is another concern as you say.


The problem in the long term is not having the gasoline in the ground.
The generator law is more about evacuation, not living after the
storm.
Going into a storm I make sure I have 50 gallons of gas in cans and
that the boat and all of the cars/trucks are full. I also have a 125
gallon propane tank I keep full. That 50 gallons of gas and 125
gallons of propane is still less than 2 weeks on a 5.5 KW generator.
After Irma gas stations were coming back online in about 5-6 days and
we had a direct hit that pretty much when straight up I-75.

For the OP. the advantage of the inverter is if you really do have a
modest load, the generator can throttle down to handle the actual load
and not have to turn 3600 RPM no matter what the load is.
With light loads, gasoline lasts a lot longer.
I was burning 0.5 GPH gasoline and 0.8 GPH on Propane. with my old
school generator.
Inverter guys were bragging about a couple gallons a day with their
2kw Honda..

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On 5/24/2019 8:09 PM, Frank wrote:



It is a pain to store gas but if I had natural gas service I would run
the generator on that.

When I got my generator I put in a transfer panel to handle circuits I
needed like the well, furnace, refrigerator and freezer.Â* I believe they
have smart systems today that can handle the whole house as long as
everything is not on at once so they manage it as such.


I do have natural gas but I've not seen any small generators that use
it. Well, one, but it had terrible reviews. I have a gas line on the
lanai for the grill so it would be easy to use a connector for a
generator.

I'd keep minimal gas on hand for the occasional outage but for a big
storm, there is enough notice to stock up.
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On Fri, 24 May 2019 19:09:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I'm considering buying a generator. Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet. Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane. AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help. But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen. I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k. I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.

An inverter generator can be a lot quieter than a regular one because
it does not need to run at full speed under light load. Don't know
about in Florida, but up here you don't get a decent inverter unit for
under a grand. For your use you don't NEED an inverter unit - but
they sure are nice for camping etc where you want things quiet. GOOD
inverters are also better for sensitive electronics.
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Inverter guys were bragging about a couple gallons a day with their
2kw Honda..


Everyone has different needs - if I could get by on 110 v
3000 watts - I certainly have an inverter generator.
I need 230 volts and about 5 kw and I haven't yet
stumbled across one that I can afford - so I'll hang in
there with my 20 year old Honda EM5000 ...
.. not sure if the inverter output wave-form has any
affect on electronics ?
John T.
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On Fri, 24 May 2019 19:22:57 -0400, Wade Garrett
wrote:

On 5/24/19 7:09 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I'm considering buying a generator.* Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet.* Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane.* AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help.* But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen.* I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k.* I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.


Thing I wonder about is you need to keep enough gas on hand to run the
thing, possibly for a good while.

The gas gotta stay fresh- and storing a lot of it isn't safe. I know
there are stabilizers you can add to help keep fresh- but I wonder how
well they actually work- and how long they last.

If you don't have a supply of gas stored and the problem/outage is
widespread, local gas stations won't be able to pump gas and/or you may
not be able to drive to one due to road conditions.

ANd there is a difference between inverter and non-inverter in that
respect??? Don't think so.

My non-inverter unit runs on gasoline, propane, or natural gas. You
can get tri-fuelinverter units too.

contact these guys:

https://www.motorsnorkel.com/generators.html

They handle Yamaha inverter units that run on tri-fuel.
They alsomade the conversion kit that's on my Champion.


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In Ed Pawlowski writes:

I have to do some more checking, but mostly the fridge is the big value
thing to keep going. Gas range and grill takes care of cooking, city
water.


Be _very_ careful when measring the electrical usage
of "must run" items (and spec'ing out the generator).

a: Many, especially those with motors such as
water (well/sump) pumps and air conditioners
and... refrigerators (but see next point)
have much higher "starting surge" power
draw requirements than the label list.

Similarly, using something like a Kill-A-Watt
meter (a really great device, about $30) won't
necessarily tell you about the starting issue

b: frost free refrigerators draw a _LOT_ of power
when they're running the auto-defrost cycle.
In my own system the power demand when just
cooling down is less than 100 watts. HOWEVER,
when it's i defrost mode, it's more like 500.
And again, unless you happen to measure it at
just the right time, you won't know this.

c: Oh, and a VERY big annoyance with a big chunk
of modern gas stoves/ovens. They're often
"elctric start", so to speak.
The stoves tend to be a spark ignitor whic
doesn't draw much, but..
BUT, the ovens are often a problem. Many if
them use an electrical glow plate to ignite
the gas, and it can draw 500 watts. And what's
even worse is that... they'll often stay on,
pulling all that electricity ... the entire
time the over flame is lit.



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Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
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Default Inverter generator Do I need that?

On Fri, 24 May 2019 23:44:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/24/2019 11:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

I'm considering buying a generator. Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet. Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane. AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help. But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen. I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k. I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.



I would not worry one way or the other about an inverter or not for the
equipment no matter what the hype is. I run a large TV and computers on
a regular 5 kw generator all the time during the power outages. It will
burn though a lot of gas if left running.

The main thing is how much gas do you want to use and store. The
inverters usually use less , especially if not loaded too much.

I think Honda makes an inverter generator that is about 2 kw for right
at $ 1000.




I have to do some more checking, but mostly the fridge is the big value
thing to keep going. Gas range and grill takes care of cooking, city
water.


A natural gas house should run fine on a little 2kw inverter. Look at
any 240v (2 pole) breakers in the panel because those pieces of
equipment are not going to work. The other issue is trying to put
transfer equipment on your panel will be tough too since you will only
be able to feed one phase. You also would have to be sure all 240v
breakers were tripped.
You might find it easier to just run on cords.
I suppose you could put in transfer equipment for a few circuits
pretty cheaply. It might be as easy as a 4" square box with 4 "3 way"
switches in it to move 4 circuits.
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On 5/24/19 7:09 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I'm considering buying a generator.Â* Just a portable that would keep the refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet.Â* Nothing of higher power demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a hurricane.Â* AFAIK, this is not a really bad
area for that and out lines are underground so that help.Â* But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen. I'd like to keep it down to less than $1k.Â* I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts should handle my needs.



Refrigerator

Kitchen range

Washer

Dryer

Dishwasher

Water heater

Modem/Router/Computer/TV/Cable box

Cellphone charging station

Lighting


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On 5/24/2019 9:15 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/24/2019 8:09 PM, Frank wrote:



It is a pain to store gas but if I had natural gas service I would run
the generator on that.

When I got my generator I put in a transfer panel to handle circuits I
needed like the well, furnace, refrigerator and freezer.Â* I believe
they have smart systems today that can handle the whole house as long
as everything is not on at once so they manage it as such.


I do have natural gas but I've not seen any small generators that use
it.Â* Well, one, but it had terrible reviews.Â* I have a gas line on the
lanai for the grill so it would be easy to use a connector for a generator.

I'd keep minimal gas on hand for the occasional outage but for a big
storm, there is enough notice to stock up.


I don't know anything about those that use natural gas but do know a guy
that has one but his whole house is connected and it is a big house.

Might also mention that mine is pretty noisy and if I bought another
would look for something quieter.

Someone told me that if you want to save money you go to the store after
a big storm and get a returned generator.
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On 5/25/2019 12:29 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 23:44:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/24/2019 11:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...
I'm considering buying a generator. Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet. Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane. AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help. But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen. I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k. I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.


I would not worry one way or the other about an inverter or not for the
equipment no matter what the hype is. I run a large TV and computers on
a regular 5 kw generator all the time during the power outages. It will
burn though a lot of gas if left running.

The main thing is how much gas do you want to use and store. The
inverters usually use less , especially if not loaded too much.

I think Honda makes an inverter generator that is about 2 kw for right
at $ 1000.




I have to do some more checking, but mostly the fridge is the big value
thing to keep going. Gas range and grill takes care of cooking, city
water.

A natural gas house should run fine on a little 2kw inverter. Look at
any 240v (2 pole) breakers in the panel because those pieces of
equipment are not going to work. The other issue is trying to put
transfer equipment on your panel will be tough too since you will only
be able to feed one phase. You also would have to be sure all 240v
breakers were tripped.
You might find it easier to just run on cords.
I suppose you could put in transfer equipment for a few circuits
pretty cheaply. It might be as easy as a 4" square box with 4 "3 way"
switches in it to move 4 circuits.


Â* My 5.5k B&S unit will run everything but my electric water heater ...
I have it set up to feed the main panel from the shop panel , including
240V stuff . We do minimize loads when we have to use the generator ,
and I usually have around 10 gallons of non-ethanol gas on hand for the
yard equipment plus the generator tank is kept filled with stabilized
non-ethanol gas - drained and replaced annually unless I've used the
unit enough to burn a full tank , which is seldom . Out here in the
woods we often lose power for a minute or two during really nasty
weather but I've never needed to run ours for more than a day or two .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !

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On 5/24/2019 7:09 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I'm considering buying a generator.Â* Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet.Â* Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane.Â* AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help.Â* But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen.Â* I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k.Â* I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.

I have a Harbor Freight Predator 7000/8750 (watts/peak). During a 40
hour outage in January, I ran it with the old, treated gasoline. It ran
ok, but I had to close the choke a bit to make it happy and run smooth.
Then I had to go out to get more gas. After putting in the new gas, it
ran perfectly with the choke completely off, as it should. When I built
the house 10 years ago, the electrical guy (a real jerk) put in a
separate panel for the generator. I should have had him put in one of
the mechanical interlocks in the main panel and eliminate the separate
generator panel, but I didn't really think of it. I have now installed
the mechanical interlock, so everything can be run from the generator.
And that's what I used in January for the outage. The only problem with
the mechanical interlock is that you don't know when power had been
restored ... no street lights here, but I did happen to see a light in
the neighbor's house, but that's pretty far away. BTW, there are
"reverse alarms" available to detect power returned and sound an alarm.
I have not installed one of these yet. I did install a generator
conversion kit to allow use with propane (or natural gas). I have a 500
gallon propane tank (no ng in my rural area). When my HVAC guy was
here, we tried running the AC on the generator on propane. The AC was
not happy. But, I did not properly adjust the propane flow valve at
that time, so I will be trying that again after the adjustment
procedure. Sorry for being so verbose.


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On 5/25/2019 7:39 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/25/2019 12:29 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 23:44:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/24/2019 11:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...
I'm considering buying a generator.Â* Just a portable that would
keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet.Â* Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane.Â* AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out
lines
are underground so that help.Â* But stuff happens. I'm in Florida
now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen.Â* I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k.Â* I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000
watts
should handle my needs.


I would not worry one way or the other about an inverter or not for the
equipment no matter what the hype is.Â* I run a large TV and
computers on
a regular 5 kw generator all the time during the power outages.Â* It
will
burn though a lot of gas if left running.

The main thing is how much gas do you want to use and store.Â* The
inverters usually use less , especially if not loaded too much.

I think Honda makes an inverter generator that is about 2 kw for right
at $ 1000.




I have to do some more checking, but mostly the fridge is the big value
thing to keep going.Â* Gas range and grill takes care of cooking, city
water.

A natural gas house should run fine on a little 2kw inverter. Look at
any 240v (2 pole) breakers in the panel because those pieces of
equipment are not going to work. The other issue is trying to put
transfer equipment on your panel will be tough too since you will only
be able to feed one phase. You also would have to be sure all 240v
breakers were tripped.
You might find it easier to just run on cords.
I suppose you could put in transfer equipment for a few circuits
pretty cheaply. It might be as easy as a 4" square box with 4 "3 way"
switches in it to move 4 circuits.


Â* My 5.5k B&S unit will run everything but my electric water heater ...
I have it set up to feed the main panel from the shop panel , including
240V stuff . We do minimize loads when we have to use the generator ,
and I usually have around 10 gallons of non-ethanol gas on hand for the
yard equipment plus the generator tank is kept filled with stabilized
non-ethanol gas - drained and replaced annually unless I've used the
unit enough to burn a full tank , which is seldom . Out here in the
woods we often lose power for a minute or two during really nasty
weather but I've never needed to run ours for more than a day or two .

Sounds just like what I have with the exception of going into the main
panel. Same generator and same amount of gas.

Use today does not extend beyond a day or two but 20 or so years ago I
recall a summer outage lasting a week. Summers you cannot miss a day or
two without AC or water but in the winter more than 2 days without heat
are what it took me to buy a generator. In Florida, AC would probably
bemost needed.
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On Friday, May 24, 2019 at 10:16:17 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 19:09:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I'm considering buying a generator. Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet. Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane. AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help. But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen. I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k. I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.

An inverter generator can be a lot quieter than a regular one because
it does not need to run at full speed under light load. Don't know
about in Florida, but up here you don't get a decent inverter unit for
under a grand. For your use you don't NEED an inverter unit - but
they sure are nice for camping etc where you want things quiet. GOOD
inverters are also better for sensitive electronics.


In addition to running quieter most of the time, an inverter one should
use less fuel too. But they are more expensive and have more electronics
that can fail too. I'd probably go with a regular type, but the noise
factor is worth considering. That also depends on how close you are to
neighbors, if you care, what they have, etc.

Since Ed has nat gas available, I would get one that will run on that.
There are companies that sell conversion kits for the common engines,
ones that will make it tri-fuel, so it will run on gas, nat gas or propane
and you can even switch back and forth. That way if you want to take it
elsewhere and run it on gasoline, you can. For ~$1000 should be able
to get a 5KW gen and conversion kit.

I would also do it right, get an Interlockit or better yet similar from
the maker of your panel, if available and an inlet. That way you can
very easily connect the generator when needed and power anything in the
house you choose, without cords and all that goes with that.
5KW should be fine for typical house, as long as you
don't expect to run big loads like AC, electric ovens, WH, etc.
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On Sat, 25 May 2019 06:39:32 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/25/2019 12:29 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 23:44:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/24/2019 11:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...
I'm considering buying a generator. Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet. Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane. AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help. But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen. I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k. I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.


I would not worry one way or the other about an inverter or not for the
equipment no matter what the hype is. I run a large TV and computers on
a regular 5 kw generator all the time during the power outages. It will
burn though a lot of gas if left running.

The main thing is how much gas do you want to use and store. The
inverters usually use less , especially if not loaded too much.

I think Honda makes an inverter generator that is about 2 kw for right
at $ 1000.




I have to do some more checking, but mostly the fridge is the big value
thing to keep going. Gas range and grill takes care of cooking, city
water.

A natural gas house should run fine on a little 2kw inverter. Look at
any 240v (2 pole) breakers in the panel because those pieces of
equipment are not going to work. The other issue is trying to put
transfer equipment on your panel will be tough too since you will only
be able to feed one phase. You also would have to be sure all 240v
breakers were tripped.
You might find it easier to just run on cords.
I suppose you could put in transfer equipment for a few circuits
pretty cheaply. It might be as easy as a 4" square box with 4 "3 way"
switches in it to move 4 circuits.


Â* My 5.5k B&S unit will run everything but my electric water heater ...
I have it set up to feed the main panel from the shop panel , including
240V stuff . We do minimize loads when we have to use the generator ,
and I usually have around 10 gallons of non-ethanol gas on hand for the
yard equipment plus the generator tank is kept filled with stabilized
non-ethanol gas - drained and replaced annually unless I've used the
unit enough to burn a full tank , which is seldom . Out here in the
woods we often lose power for a minute or two during really nasty
weather but I've never needed to run ours for more than a day or two .


I have a boat so the gas won't get old. I have 10 jerry cans.

All I turned off (at the panel) when I hooked up the 5.5kw was the
water heater. We kept the central A/C turned off at the thermostat and
didn't use the range or dryer. Other than that we used everything else
pretty much normally, just turning off things when we weren't using
them. Life was really pretty normal.
I had 2 refrigerators going, 2 well pumps, pool pump and the mini
split in the bedroom along with my general lighting load. We did have
to swap the pool for the bedroom A/C (A/C at night, pool during the
day) and occasionally I would get a trip if too many things were in
locked rotor at the same time. I could turn off the well pumps, let
the fridges start then turn the well back on. I ran the best part of 2
weeks that way. If we had natural gas that 5.5 would have been plenty
for everything but the central air. In fact the 2KW Ed is talking
about probably would have been plenty if I didn't have 2 well pumps
and a pool pump running. (240v loads)
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On Sat, 25 May 2019 08:22:18 -0400, Art Todesco
wrote:

On 5/24/2019 7:09 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I'm considering buying a generator.Â* Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet.Â* Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane.Â* AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help.Â* But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen.Â* I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k.Â* I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.

I have a Harbor Freight Predator 7000/8750 (watts/peak). During a 40
hour outage in January, I ran it with the old, treated gasoline. It ran
ok, but I had to close the choke a bit to make it happy and run smooth.
Then I had to go out to get more gas. After putting in the new gas, it
ran perfectly with the choke completely off, as it should. When I built
the house 10 years ago, the electrical guy (a real jerk) put in a
separate panel for the generator. I should have had him put in one of
the mechanical interlocks in the main panel and eliminate the separate
generator panel, but I didn't really think of it. I have now installed
the mechanical interlock, so everything can be run from the generator.
And that's what I used in January for the outage. The only problem with
the mechanical interlock is that you don't know when power had been
restored ... no street lights here, but I did happen to see a light in
the neighbor's house, but that's pretty far away. BTW, there are
"reverse alarms" available to detect power returned and sound an alarm.
I have not installed one of these yet. I did install a generator
conversion kit to allow use with propane (or natural gas). I have a 500
gallon propane tank (no ng in my rural area). When my HVAC guy was
here, we tried running the AC on the generator on propane. The AC was
not happy. But, I did not properly adjust the propane flow valve at
that time, so I will be trying that again after the adjustment
procedure. Sorry for being so verbose.


If you have a "smart meter" you can just look at that. If it has a
display, the power is back.
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On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 8:49:42 AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 5/25/2019 7:39 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/25/2019 12:29 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 23:44:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/24/2019 11:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...
I'm considering buying a generator.Â* Just a portable that would
keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet.Â* Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane.Â* AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out
lines
are underground so that help.Â* But stuff happens. I'm in Florida
now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen.Â* I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k.Â* I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000
watts
should handle my needs.


I would not worry one way or the other about an inverter or not for the
equipment no matter what the hype is.Â* I run a large TV and
computers on
a regular 5 kw generator all the time during the power outages.Â* It
will
burn though a lot of gas if left running.

The main thing is how much gas do you want to use and store.Â* The
inverters usually use less , especially if not loaded too much.

I think Honda makes an inverter generator that is about 2 kw for right
at $ 1000.




I have to do some more checking, but mostly the fridge is the big value
thing to keep going.Â* Gas range and grill takes care of cooking, city
water.
A natural gas house should run fine on a little 2kw inverter. Look at
any 240v (2 pole) breakers in the panel because those pieces of
equipment are not going to work. The other issue is trying to put
transfer equipment on your panel will be tough too since you will only
be able to feed one phase. You also would have to be sure all 240v
breakers were tripped.
You might find it easier to just run on cords.
I suppose you could put in transfer equipment for a few circuits
pretty cheaply. It might be as easy as a 4" square box with 4 "3 way"
switches in it to move 4 circuits.


Â* My 5.5k B&S unit will run everything but my electric water heater ...
I have it set up to feed the main panel from the shop panel , including
240V stuff . We do minimize loads when we have to use the generator ,
and I usually have around 10 gallons of non-ethanol gas on hand for the
yard equipment plus the generator tank is kept filled with stabilized
non-ethanol gas - drained and replaced annually unless I've used the
unit enough to burn a full tank , which is seldom . Out here in the
woods we often lose power for a minute or two during really nasty
weather but I've never needed to run ours for more than a day or two .

Sounds just like what I have with the exception of going into the main
panel. Same generator and same amount of gas.

Use today does not extend beyond a day or two but 20 or so years ago I
recall a summer outage lasting a week. Summers you cannot miss a day or
two without AC or water but in the winter more than 2 days without heat
are what it took me to buy a generator. In Florida, AC would probably
bemost needed.


Ed could get a window unit for $125 to have on hand if needed to cool
a room or two in an emergency. If you had a hurricane and power is out
for a week, that would sure make a huge difference in comfort,
especially sleeping at night.



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In article , says...

I have to do some more checking, but mostly the fridge is the big value
thing to keep going. Gas range and grill takes care of cooking, city
water.



By living in Florida I guess that you do not have to worry too much
about keeping warm or pipes freesing in the winter and bursting.

You power outages would probably be mostly in the warm parts of the
year. So you would just need to run a generator for say an hour every
couple of hours . With gas to cook with an no water problems you are
good to go for a while.

Where I am at , I have a heatpump so do no try to power that. I do have
a wood stove for heat if needed. Also have one of the propane camp
stoves to cook with. Being on a well for water, I need a generator
large enough to power that.

Mentioned it before, just try to use the ethanol free gas on whatever
you get. Run the generator empty and drain the tank if you do not plan
on using it for a few weeks or longer. I have only used my generator a
few times so keep it drained of gas. It has started with one or two
pulls of the cord. I have a tiller that I only use once or twice a
year. I let it run empty and the next year fill it with gas and it will
fire off with just one or two pulles of the cord. In the past I had
left some of that ethanol gas in the generator for about 2 months and it
gummed up the works and would not start.Had to clean out the carborator
each time.


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On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 9:50:01 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

I have to do some more checking, but mostly the fridge is the big value
thing to keep going. Gas range and grill takes care of cooking, city
water.



By living in Florida I guess that you do not have to worry too much
about keeping warm or pipes freesing in the winter and bursting.

You power outages would probably be mostly in the warm parts of the
year. So you would just need to run a generator for say an hour every
couple of hours .


You can go a lot longer than that, unless you need to use something that
runs on electric. A fridge that's not being opened can easily go for
6, 12 hours or more. You can open it less frequently by putting
frequently used stuff, eg beverages, in a cooler with some ice.
The basement freezer here went a week during Sandy and I didn't lose
anything. I did put extra containers of water in there when the storm
was coming, to add additional ice to increase the capacity.
And after about 4 days, I removed them and put in bags of ice a couple times.
At the end of a full week, stuff had partially defrosted, but it was
all still good.








With gas to cook with an no water problems you are
good to go for a while.

Where I am at , I have a heatpump so do no try to power that. I do have
a wood stove for heat if needed. Also have one of the propane camp
stoves to cook with. Being on a well for water, I need a generator
large enough to power that.

Mentioned it before, just try to use the ethanol free gas on whatever
you get. Run the generator empty and drain the tank if you do not plan
on using it for a few weeks or longer. I have only used my generator a
few times so keep it drained of gas. It has started with one or two
pulls of the cord. I have a tiller that I only use once or twice a
year. I let it run empty and the next year fill it with gas and it will
fire off with just one or two pulles of the cord. In the past I had
left some of that ethanol gas in the generator for about 2 months and it
gummed up the works and would not start.Had to clean out the carborator
each time.


Buying a spare carburetor and having it on hand would be a good plan
too. There are cheap ones for many engines on Ebay. But Ed has nat gas
and for sure I'd get a generator where there is a conversion kit so that
it can run on nat gas. One thing to keep in mind there is that on nat gas
the max output will be somewhat less, need to take that into account when
sizing.


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The only problem with the mechanical interlock is that
you don't know when power had been restored ...
no street lights here, but I did happen to see a light in
the neighbor's house, but that's pretty far away. BTW, there are
"reverse alarms" available to detect power returned and sound an alarm.
I have not installed one of these yet.



" Power-Back "

https://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Cont.../dp/B003KREORA

I just installed one last year - no problems -
and the screeching loud noise would probably
even wake me in the night.
Keep earplugs handy to get to the panel to turn it off !
... it's painfully loud & an awful screech.
John T.


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On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 10:05:49 AM UTC-4, wrote:

The only problem with the mechanical interlock is that
you don't know when power had been restored ...
no street lights here, but I did happen to see a light in
the neighbor's house, but that's pretty far away. BTW, there are
"reverse alarms" available to detect power returned and sound an alarm.
I have not installed one of these yet.



" Power-Back "

https://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Cont.../dp/B003KREORA

I just installed one last year - no problems -
and the screeching loud noise would probably
even wake me in the night.
Keep earplugs handy to get to the panel to turn it off !
.. it's painfully loud & an awful screech.
John T.


I didn't know these existed. Looks like it uses an inductive pickup
to determine when power is present on the incoming conductors? Good
to know they exist. Lucky here, there is a street light in front of
my house, only one on the whole street. How that came to be, no idea.
But that's far from perfect, at night you have to keep checking and
it's useless during daytime.


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On 5/25/2019 6:38 AM, Marius Josipovic wrote:
On 5/24/19 7:09 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I'm considering buying a generator.Â* Just a portable that would keep
the refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet.Â* Nothing of higher
power demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane.Â* AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out
lines are underground so that help.Â* But stuff happens. I'm in Florida
now and they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen. I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k.Â* I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000
watts should handle my needs.



Refrigerator

Kitchen range

Washer

Dryer

Dishwasher

Water heater

Modem/Router/Computer/TV/Cable box

Cellphone charging station

Lighting


Hot water is gas. Cooking is gas but would lose the oven. Can easily
go two weeks with laundry. Biggest single load is the refrigerator,
maybe a room AC to sleep.
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On Sat, 25 May 2019 05:54:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 24, 2019 at 10:16:17 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 19:09:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I'm considering buying a generator. Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet. Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane. AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help. But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen. I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k. I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.

An inverter generator can be a lot quieter than a regular one because
it does not need to run at full speed under light load. Don't know
about in Florida, but up here you don't get a decent inverter unit for
under a grand. For your use you don't NEED an inverter unit - but
they sure are nice for camping etc where you want things quiet. GOOD
inverters are also better for sensitive electronics.


In addition to running quieter most of the time, an inverter one should
use less fuel too. But they are more expensive and have more electronics
that can fail too. I'd probably go with a regular type, but the noise
factor is worth considering. That also depends on how close you are to
neighbors, if you care, what they have, etc.

Since Ed has nat gas available, I would get one that will run on that.
There are companies that sell conversion kits for the common engines,
ones that will make it tri-fuel, so it will run on gas, nat gas or propane
and you can even switch back and forth. That way if you want to take it
elsewhere and run it on gasoline, you can. For ~$1000 should be able
to get a 5KW gen and conversion kit.

I would also do it right, get an Interlockit or better yet similar from
the maker of your panel, if available and an inlet. That way you can
very easily connect the generator when needed and power anything in the
house you choose, without cords and all that goes with that.
5KW should be fine for typical house, as long as you
don't expect to run big loads like AC, electric ovens, WH, etc.


More like $100. I got mine from US Carburetion and it was a tad over
$100. Installing it is easy. You remove the carb, swap out the studs
for longer ones, put the venturi plate in for the gas, replace the
carb and mount the regulator. I probably spent close top an hour doing
it but I could do another one in 15 minutes now that I understand what
needs to be done. The kits for the little inverters mount the
regulator remotely since there is no good place to put it on the
generator. There are actually 2 regulators, the demand regulator for
the engine itself and another one on the supply line to get the input
pressure right but you might not need that one on a natural gas setup.
I actually bought 2 of them for propane. One is on the big built in
tank line and I have another one so I can run off a 20# portable tank.
All in I was closer to $200 with all of the extra regulators and
hoses. It is handy to have the portable capability tho if I want to
use the generator away from the house and still not screw with
gasoline. Once you use propane, you will wonder why you ever messed
with gas. It starts easier and you do not need to worry about getting
every last drop of gas out of the system when you put it away.
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On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 11:31:55 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2019 05:54:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 24, 2019 at 10:16:17 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 19:09:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I'm considering buying a generator. Just a portable that would keep the
refrigerator going, maybe the TV or internet. Nothing of higher power
demand and only for a few hours a day if power goes out after a
hurricane. AFAIK, this is not a really bad area for that and out lines
are underground so that help. But stuff happens. I'm in Florida now and
they do get hurricanes.

The inverters run a couple of hundred more from what I've seen. I'd
like to keep it down to less than $1k. I'm thinking 2,000 to 3000 watts
should handle my needs.
An inverter generator can be a lot quieter than a regular one because
it does not need to run at full speed under light load. Don't know
about in Florida, but up here you don't get a decent inverter unit for
under a grand. For your use you don't NEED an inverter unit - but
they sure are nice for camping etc where you want things quiet. GOOD
inverters are also better for sensitive electronics.


In addition to running quieter most of the time, an inverter one should
use less fuel too. But they are more expensive and have more electronics
that can fail too. I'd probably go with a regular type, but the noise
factor is worth considering. That also depends on how close you are to
neighbors, if you care, what they have, etc.

Since Ed has nat gas available, I would get one that will run on that.
There are companies that sell conversion kits for the common engines,
ones that will make it tri-fuel, so it will run on gas, nat gas or propane
and you can even switch back and forth. That way if you want to take it
elsewhere and run it on gasoline, you can. For ~$1000 should be able
to get a 5KW gen and conversion kit.

I would also do it right, get an Interlockit or better yet similar from
the maker of your panel, if available and an inlet. That way you can
very easily connect the generator when needed and power anything in the
house you choose, without cords and all that goes with that.
5KW should be fine for typical house, as long as you
don't expect to run big loads like AC, electric ovens, WH, etc.


More like $100.



The $1000 number was for a generator and a conversion kit.


I got mine from US Carburetion and it was a tad over
$100. Installing it is easy. You remove the carb, swap out the studs
for longer ones, put the venturi plate in for the gas, replace the
carb and mount the regulator. I probably spent close top an hour doing
it but I could do another one in 15 minutes now that I understand what
needs to be done. The kits for the little inverters mount the
regulator remotely since there is no good place to put it on the
generator. There are actually 2 regulators, the demand regulator for
the engine itself and another one on the supply line to get the input
pressure right but you might not need that one on a natural gas setup.
I actually bought 2 of them for propane. One is on the big built in
tank line and I have another one so I can run off a 20# portable tank.
All in I was closer to $200 with all of the extra regulators and
hoses. It is handy to have the portable capability tho if I want to
use the generator away from the house and still not screw with
gasoline. Once you use propane, you will wonder why you ever messed
with gas. It starts easier and you do not need to worry about getting
every last drop of gas out of the system when you put it away.


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In article , Ed Pawlowski
wrote:

Hot water is gas. Cooking is gas but would lose the oven. Can easily
go two weeks with laundry. Biggest single load is the refrigerator,
maybe a room AC to sleep.


Ed-

The Honda EU2000i would seem to be the ideal generator for you. The
only drawback would be its small gas tank.

Other inverter generators in its class are less efficient because they
may not throttle-down when lightly loaded. And they are loud compared
to the Honda. (Apparently some use a different method of measuring
their sound level.)

I have the Honda EU6500i. It probably uses more gas than the EU2000i,
but has more power and a larger gas tank. With my light load, it will
run at least 16 hours.

My refrigerator will keep ice solid for 8 hours, so I turn the generator
off when sleeping.

I keep ten gallons of aviation fuel on hand. It seems to hold up quite
well. After using the generator, I turn off the fuel valve and run it
dry.

Fred


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On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 10:31:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/25/2019 1:29 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 23:44:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


I have to do some more checking, but mostly the fridge is the big value
thing to keep going. Gas range and grill takes care of cooking, city
water.


A natural gas house should run fine on a little 2kw inverter. Look at
any 240v (2 pole) breakers in the panel because those pieces of
equipment are not going to work. The other issue is trying to put
transfer equipment on your panel will be tough too since you will only
be able to feed one phase. You also would have to be sure all 240v
breakers were tripped

I'm going to use cords for now. I don't know how often the power may go
out but if only a day or two a year, no big deal. If for a week at a
time, you can be sure I'll do more.

I was never able to justify a generator for 53 years but here, I may.


I've used cords and I've used the inlet and panel approach. Once you
do the inlet and panel way, you forget about cords. Huge difference.
You just open the large breakers on things you either don't need to run
at all or will selectively manage. Then the rest of the house is
powered and it's like living normally. TVs work, radios work all the
light switches around the house work, bathroom fans, fridge, freezer
you need something from another room, want to check on something in
the basement, turn on the light switch, it's lit. Want to go out in
the car, garage is powered, it's lit and the automatic door opens.
You don't have much need for heat down there, probably don't have
a furnace, but if you did, that's powered and so is a gas water heater
if it's a newer one that needs AC to ignite, etc. It's close to having
the whole house powered like normal, like what you'd have with a
standby generator. Actually it's BETTER than most of those, because
typically they use a separate panel that they rewire whatever circuits
that you decide at installation need to be powered. With the panel
interlock approach, you can power ANYTHING, as long as you have
sufficient capacity. You choose which breakers to turn on during
the power outage.

The inlet/panel approach is probably ~$200 if you do it yourself.
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On Sat, 25 May 2019 07:06:17 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 9:50:01 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

I have to do some more checking, but mostly the fridge is the big value
thing to keep going. Gas range and grill takes care of cooking, city
water.



By living in Florida I guess that you do not have to worry too much
about keeping warm or pipes freesing in the winter and bursting.

You power outages would probably be mostly in the warm parts of the
year. So you would just need to run a generator for say an hour every
couple of hours .


You can go a lot longer than that, unless you need to use something that
runs on electric. A fridge that's not being opened can easily go for
6, 12 hours or more. You can open it less frequently by putting
frequently used stuff, eg beverages, in a cooler with some ice.
The basement freezer here went a week during Sandy and I didn't lose
anything. I did put extra containers of water in there when the storm
was coming, to add additional ice to increase the capacity.
And after about 4 days, I removed them and put in bags of ice a couple times.
At the end of a full week, stuff had partially defrosted, but it was
all still good.

That is a good point about the thermal mass. I pack every nook and
cranny of the fridge and freezer with bottled water putting it in a
little at a time over the week before a storm. Then you have that
thermal mass and when it is all over you still have the water.

With gas to cook with an no water problems you are
good to go for a while.

Where I am at , I have a heatpump so do no try to power that. I do have
a wood stove for heat if needed. Also have one of the propane camp
stoves to cook with. Being on a well for water, I need a generator
large enough to power that.

Mentioned it before, just try to use the ethanol free gas on whatever
you get. Run the generator empty and drain the tank if you do not plan
on using it for a few weeks or longer. I have only used my generator a
few times so keep it drained of gas. It has started with one or two
pulls of the cord. I have a tiller that I only use once or twice a
year. I let it run empty and the next year fill it with gas and it will
fire off with just one or two pulles of the cord. In the past I had
left some of that ethanol gas in the generator for about 2 months and it
gummed up the works and would not start.Had to clean out the carborator
each time.


Buying a spare carburetor and having it on hand would be a good plan
too. There are cheap ones for many engines on Ebay. But Ed has nat gas
and for sure I'd get a generator where there is a conversion kit so that
it can run on nat gas. One thing to keep in mind there is that on nat gas
the max output will be somewhat less, need to take that into account when
sizing.


I really don't see that. What happens is fuel consumption goes way up.
5.5WW generator
I used a GE convection oven for a load
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Load.jpg
This is a convection oven running on propane.
volts 230, amps 23.48, watts 5402.7
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg

This is on gasoline
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Ongasoline.jpg
Same output
The wave form stayed the same too.
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Waveform.jpg

I also doubt there is enough distortion in that output to show up in
any electronics as a problem. I wonder if the inverters are even true
sine wave and not a stepped wave deal, particularly the ones from
China. (Harbor Fright)
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Default gas types, was: Inverter generator Do I need that?

In Fred McKenzie writes:

I keep ten gallons of aviation fuel on hand. It seems to hold up quite
well. After using the generator, I turn off the fuel valve and run it
dry.


Don't know if this is your Master Plan For World Domination,
but there are versions of avgas still readily available
that contain... yes... lead in them.

Not like the good old days when Superman could use a bucket of
it to shield the kryptonite, but yeah...


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Default Inverter generator Do I need that?

On Sat, 25 May 2019 10:31:25 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/25/2019 1:29 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 23:44:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


I have to do some more checking, but mostly the fridge is the big value
thing to keep going. Gas range and grill takes care of cooking, city
water.


A natural gas house should run fine on a little 2kw inverter. Look at
any 240v (2 pole) breakers in the panel because those pieces of
equipment are not going to work. The other issue is trying to put
transfer equipment on your panel will be tough too since you will only
be able to feed one phase. You also would have to be sure all 240v
breakers were tripped.


I'm going to use cords for now. I don't know how often the power may go
out but if only a day or two a year, no big deal. If for a week at a
time, you can be sure I'll do more.

I was never able to justify a generator for 53 years but here, I may.


I lived without one for 33 years and Irma was really the only time I
needed it. After Charley the lights were back in a day. We went to bed
in the dark and the power coming on woke us up. The only reason I
bought one was someone made me a deal I couldn't refuse ($300 for one
new in a 10 year old box). He bought it after Charley (2004) and sold
it to me in 2014, never having even started it. He had oil in it and
pulled it over every year or two but did not put gas in it. .

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