On Fri, 17 May 2019 15:13:38 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 8:42 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 00:47:03 +0100, wrote:
...

The " Instr " link on the web page does give more details :
" secure the base plate using a #8 x 1-1/2" (or longer) flat-head screws "
.. that's for wood studs ; for metal studs - read the Instr. .
The weight bearing ability is in the product description.
John T.

A 1.5" screw doesn't sound like it could take much sideways force.

The screws are in tension; a 1-1/2" #8 properly installed will withstand
~650 lbf in softer pine, ~960 in hard old growth (Georgia) yellow pine
(hard to find except in older homes).

https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/nbstechnologic/nbstechnologicpapert319.pdf

Roughly matching moment arms

W X 2.5" (midpoint shelf) == 650 X 3/8" (half 1" shelf thickness-1/8")

or
W = 650/(2.5*0.375) -- 98 lb

The estimated load of 100 lb distributed load with four screws sharing
the load seems reasonably conservative even accounting for less than
ideal installation.

Some of the really soft "white wood" studs one now gets probably have
only roughly half that holding power which would still be withing the
state load limits with a ~2X safety factor.

Would you want to use as steps for a loft ladder--obviously not, but for
knick-knack shelf or some medium books and the like they'd be perfectly
adequate.

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but it'll gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

On Fri, 17 May 2019 11:28:15 +0100, devnull wrote:

On 5/16/19 6:42 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 16 May 2019 23:15:27 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Thu, 16 May 2019 20:14:46 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Thu, 16 May 2019 19:27:29 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote

I've put up my own shelves with proper brackets. But I see these
"floating shelves" advertised. I thought, "What's holding them up?"

There is usually rods that go into the wall. Can be a bit fiddly to
get them in the right place so they slide into the shelf properly.

Apparently there's no right angle involved, just a screw
going straight into the back of the shelf out of the wall.
How can that possibly support anything?

It's a decent sized pair of rods that stick out of the wall
that slide into holes in the shelves with most of them.

But proper shelves have an angled bracket which can hold a lot of
weight.

But plenty don't need to hold a lot of weight and prefer the cleaner
look of a floating shelf which has no visible brackets at all.

Nothing without a 45 degree support can hold weight.

That's wrong too. I do mine that need to hold a lot of weigh
with a floor to ceiling rectangular welded frames made of
dexion slotted tubing with shelves that are fully adjustable
on 25mm spacings with the frames bolted to the walls.

So is there anything holding up the shelf apart from at the back?

Wrong, I said it's a RECTANGULAR frame, so the is one vertical at the
back of the shelf and another at the front at the front of the shelf.

So real shelves, not this floating ****. Something needs to hold the weight at the front of the shelf, or immense forces appear at the back.


To support the shelf properly, you should build support all the way down to the buildings footings.

Not required, the wall does that. All you need is to make the bracket not bend from 90 degrees to the wall.

On 5/17/2019 3:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
....

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but it'll
gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

What do you mean by "sideways"? The screw is in tension, not shear.

As far as loosening, in an application like this, it'll still be there
when you (and your grand-kids) are long gone.

--

On 5/17/2019 3:03 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 00:54:16 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:
....

Nothing immense about it. That other one
you were shown will hold a 100lb weight fine.

But the leverage.* Hold a car battery at arms length with no support
under your arm.

I just did the moment arm balance below -- the rated 100 lb distributed
load on a 5" wide shelf is reasonably conservative compared to estimated
limits.

--

On Fri, 17 May 2019 15:48:02 -0500, dpb, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile idiot, blathered:


I just did

You just DID feed the sociopathic attention whore again, you senile
troll-feeding idiot!

On Fri, 17 May 2019 15:42:59 -0500, dpb, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile idiot, blathered:


As far as loosening, in an application like this, it'll still be there
when you (and your grand-kids) are long gone.

Trolls like him will never disappear, you troll-feeding senile asshole! Just
like troll-feeding senile assholes like will obviously never disappear!

On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:48:02 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:03 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 00:54:16 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:
...

Nothing immense about it. That other one
you were shown will hold a 100lb weight fine.

But the leverage. Hold a car battery at arms length with no support
under your arm.

I just did the moment arm balance below -- the rated 100 lb distributed
load on a 5" wide shelf is reasonably conservative compared to estimated
limits.

I'd expect the shelves to split at some point. All that weight concentrated on one bit of wood.

On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:42:59 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but it'll
gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

What do you mean by "sideways"? The screw is in tension, not shear.

It's in shear. The force is downwards, the screw is horizontal.

As far as loosening, in an application like this, it'll still be there
when you (and your grand-kids) are long gone.

Put a woodscrew into some wood. Wiggle it. See what happens.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 May 2019 00:54:16 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 16 May 2019 23:15:27 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Thu, 16 May 2019 20:14:46 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Thu, 16 May 2019 19:27:29 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote

I've put up my own shelves with proper brackets. But I see these
"floating shelves" advertised. I thought, "What's holding them
up?"

There is usually rods that go into the wall. Can be a bit fiddly to
get them in the right place so they slide into the shelf properly.

Apparently there's no right angle involved, just a screw
going straight into the back of the shelf out of the wall.
How can that possibly support anything?

It's a decent sized pair of rods that stick out of the wall
that slide into holes in the shelves with most of them.

But proper shelves have an angled bracket which can hold a lot of
weight.

But plenty don't need to hold a lot of weight and prefer the cleaner
look of a floating shelf which has no visible brackets at all.

Nothing without a 45 degree support can hold weight.

That's wrong too. I do mine that need to hold a lot of weigh
with a floor to ceiling rectangular welded frames made of
dexion slotted tubing with shelves that are fully adjustable
on 25mm spacings with the frames bolted to the walls.

So is there anything holding up the shelf apart from at the back?

Wrong, I said it's a RECTANGULAR frame, so the is one vertical at the
back of the shelf and another at the front at the front of the shelf.

So real shelves, not this floating ****.

Yep, but floating shelves work fine in some situations.

Something needs to hold the weight at the front of the shelf,

Yes, but the rods sticking out of the wall do that.

or immense forces appear at the back.

Nothing immense about it. That other one
you were shown will hold a 100lb weight fine.

But the leverage. Hold a car battery at arms length with no support under
your arm.

They arent at arms length when on a floating shelf.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 May 2019 09:04:33 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

Brian Gaff wrote

I hate them.

I dont actually use them much, but thats because I prefer proper
floor to ceiling shelves. I dont even have a floating shelf for the
shower because I have a window ledge just out of the shower.

Brian prefers you reply at the top.

I've never seen him confirm that when you have said that.

I have freestanding dexion shelves in the garage,

I do have one of those, that I originally built in the flat
before I built the house. Still have it next to the fridge
now, but thats only because I havent gotten around
to getting more slotted square dexion. They dont
bother to ship it here anymore. I did buy a whole pack
of it when I was building the house and thats what all
the floor to ceiling rectangular frames are made of.

several shelves in the house made of wood and proper mitred supports,

I dislike making things out of wood like that, prefer welded steel.

and in the bathroom normal little glass shelves with proper attachments
which aren't invisible and can take weight.

So often they are not tight and slide out leaving stickyout rods that
are
invisible until you bump into one :-)

Yeah, obviously can be a problem for the blind.

Or anyone, as the stuff on the shelf is now on the floor broken into
pieces.

Easy to ensure that they dont slide off the rods when installing them.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Commander Kinsey wrote
I've put up my own shelves with proper brackets. But I see these
"floating shelves" advertised. I thought, "What's holding them up?"

There is usually rods that go into the wall. Can be a bit fiddly to
get them in the right place so they slide into the shelf properly.
Apparently there's no right angle involved, just a screw going
straight
into the back of the shelf out of the wall. How can that possibly
support anything?

It's a decent sized pair of rods that stick out of the wall
that slide into holes in the shelves with most of them.

On Sat, 18 May 2019 08:51:02 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another load of the two prize idiots' endless sick drivel unread

....and nothing's left!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Sat, 18 May 2019 08:58:49 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH yet more of the two clinically insane village idiots' absolutely
idiotic drivel

....and much better air in here again!

--
Bill Wright to Rot Speed:
"That confirms my opinion that you are a despicable little ****."
MID:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:48:02 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:03 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 00:54:16 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:
...

Nothing immense about it. That other one
you were shown will hold a 100lb weight fine.

But the leverage. Hold a car battery at arms length with no support
under your arm.

I just did the moment arm balance below -- the rated 100 lb distributed
load on a 5" wide shelf is reasonably conservative compared to estimated
limits.

I'd expect the shelves to split at some point.

They don't, because that weight presses the top part of the shelf against
the rods.
The bottom part of the shelf just stops it bending between the rods.

All that weight concentrated on one bit of wood.

But the wood is in compression and so wont split.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:42:59 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but it'll
gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

What do you mean by "sideways"? The screw is in tension, not shear.

It's in shear.

Nope.

The force is downwards,

The force on the screw is pulling it out of the wall
with those rods with a metal plate that is screwed
to the wall, the metal plate is turning on the bottom
edge of the plate, pulling the screw out of the wall.

the screw is horizontal.

That's the only part you did manage to get right.

As far as loosening, in an application like this, it'll still be there
when you (and your grand-kids) are long gone.

Put a woodscrew into some wood. Wiggle it. See what happens.

Works fine if you get the hole size right and the wood is solid enough.

On Sat, 18 May 2019 09:32:27 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


But the wood is in compression and so wont split.

So for how long are you two retards STILL going to go on about that ****?
Until one of you losers climaxes? BG

--
"Anonymous" to trolling senile Rot Speed:
"You can **** off as you know less than pig **** you sad
little ignorant ****."
MID:

On Sat, 18 May 2019 09:37:07 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Works fine if you get the hole size right and the wood is solid enough.

Is this still about your screws, you two screwed up psychopathic idiots? LOL

--
Another retarded "conversation" between Birdbrain and senile Rodent:

Senile Rodent: " Did you ever dig a hole to bury your own ****?"

Birdbrain: "I do if there's no flush toilet around."

Senile Rodent: "Yeah, I prefer camping like that, off by myself with
no dunnys around and have always buried the ****."

MID:

On 5/17/2019 4:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:42:59 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but it'll
gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

What do you mean by "sideways"?* The screw is in tension, not shear.

It's in shear.* The force is downwards, the screw is horizontal.
....

Absolutely not. The screw is in tension.

The shelf isn't hanging on the screw, it's hung on the rod which
transfers the load to the plate by the rigid mounting which tries to
rotate and thus puts the screw in tension.

NB: both screws are position _above_ the rod to resist that transferred
moment.

--

On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:24:06 -0500, dpb, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile idiot, blathered:


Absolutely not. The screw is in tension.

STILL going on about your screws, you screwed, senile troll-feeding asshole?
LOL

On Sat, 18 May 2019 03:24:06 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 4:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:42:59 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but it'll
gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

What do you mean by "sideways"? The screw is in tension, not shear.

It's in shear. The force is downwards, the screw is horizontal.
...

Absolutely not. The screw is in tension.

The shelf isn't hanging on the screw, it's hung on the rod which
transfers the load to the plate

What plate?

by the rigid mounting which tries to
rotate and thus puts the screw in tension.

NB: both screws are position _above_ the rod to resist that transferred
moment.

Weight on the shelf tries to make the screw become lower than horizontal. Just like if you stretch your arms out and someone hangs heavy objects on your hands. Your arms are pulled down.

On 5/18/2019 9:17 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 03:24:06 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 4:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:42:59 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but it'll
gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

What do you mean by "sideways"?* The screw is in tension, not shear.

It's in shear.* The force is downwards, the screw is horizontal.
...

Absolutely not.* The screw is in tension.

The shelf isn't hanging on the screw, it's hung on the rod which
transfers the load to the plate

What plate?

The mounting plate the rods are welded to that the screws go thru, silly...

by the rigid mounting which tries to
rotate and thus puts the screw in tension.

NB: both screws are position _above_ the rod to resist that transferred
moment.

Weight on the shelf tries to make the screw become lower than
horizontal.* Just like if you stretch your arms out and someone hangs
heavy objects on your hands.* Your arms are pulled down.

Look at the geometry of the device. The load is _NOT_ placed directly
downward on the screw at the wall; it's placed on the rod welded to the
plate which is screwed to the wall. That load is transferred as a
moment arm on the rod to the plat which is pressed against the wall at
the bottom below the rod and tried to be pulled away from the wall by
the plate at the top--which is where the screws are. Ergo, the screws
are in tension resisting that force; the wall is exerting the equivalent
opposing force on the bottom half of the plate in the opposite direction
to prevent the rotation.

Your arm analogy is flawed in that your shoulder joint is not rigidly
affixed to a surface which is supported against a solid resisting object
below with a tension member above resisting that moment. You feel the
moment, yes; but you don't have the rest of the mechanical device to help.

If you can't see it, go study a text in engineering statics; I've done
all I can do, no point in just repeating the same basic physics lesson
over and over and over...

Bye.

--

On Sat, 18 May 2019 19:22:33 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/18/2019 9:17 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 03:24:06 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 4:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:42:59 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but it'll
gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

What do you mean by "sideways"? The screw is in tension, not shear.

It's in shear. The force is downwards, the screw is horizontal.
...

Absolutely not. The screw is in tension.

The shelf isn't hanging on the screw, it's hung on the rod which
transfers the load to the plate

What plate?

The mounting plate the rods are welded to that the screws go thru, silly...

I thought the whole idea was it was invisible. Jut a rod terminating in a single screw, all inline. If there's a plate, surely that's visible?

by the rigid mounting which tries to
rotate and thus puts the screw in tension.

NB: both screws are position _above_ the rod to resist that transferred
moment.

Weight on the shelf tries to make the screw become lower than
horizontal. Just like if you stretch your arms out and someone hangs
heavy objects on your hands. Your arms are pulled down.

Look at the geometry of the device. The load is _NOT_ placed directly
downward on the screw at the wall; it's placed on the rod welded to the
plate which is screwed to the wall. That load is transferred as a
moment arm on the rod to the plat which is pressed against the wall at
the bottom below the rod and tried to be pulled away from the wall by
the plate at the top--which is where the screws are. Ergo, the screws
are in tension resisting that force; the wall is exerting the equivalent
opposing force on the bottom half of the plate in the opposite direction
to prevent the rotation.

Your arm analogy is flawed in that your shoulder joint is not rigidly
affixed to a surface which is supported against a solid resisting object
below with a tension member above resisting that moment. You feel the
moment, yes; but you don't have the rest of the mechanical device to help.

If you can't see it, go study a text in engineering statics; I've done
all I can do, no point in just repeating the same basic physics lesson
over and over and over...

What you described sounds like a normal shelf bracket. So how are these invisible?

On Sat, 18 May 2019 13:22:33 -0500, dpb, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile idiot, blathered:


Look at the geometry of the device.

Just look at his and your own idiocy, troll-feeding senile retard! BG

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 18 May 2019 03:24:06 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 4:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:42:59 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but it'll
gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

What do you mean by "sideways"? The screw is in tension, not shear.

It's in shear. The force is downwards, the screw is horizontal.
...

Absolutely not. The screw is in tension.

The shelf isn't hanging on the screw, it's hung on the rod which
transfers the load to the plate

What plate?

The one welded to the wall end of the rod with the two screw holes
in the top edge of it that allow you to attach the rod to the wall.

by the rigid mounting which tries to
rotate and thus puts the screw in tension.

NB: both screws are position _above_ the rod to resist that transferred
moment.

Weight on the shelf tries to make the screw become lower than horizontal.

It actually tries to pull the screws out of the wall because the metal
plate pivots along the bottom edge of the plate as the shelf is loaded.

Just like if you stretch your arms out and someone hangs heavy objects on
your hands. Your arms are pulled down.

Nothing like in fact.

What you described sounds like a normal shelf bracket. So how are these invisible?


Here's one example :

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware...648,43649&ap=1

Look at the pictures ; read the product description ;
and most importantly - study the " Instr. " link.
The shelf support rods are hidden in the shelf board ;
the shelf support plates are hidden behind the shelf board.
I have not used these, but an earlier poster said that a similar
product worked well and exceeded his expectations.
I have come to trust the Lee Valley product descriptions -
the load bearing is clearly stated.
John T.

On Sat, 18 May 2019 15:44:27 -0400, , another brain
damaged, troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered:


What you described sounds like a normal shelf bracket. So how are these invisible?


Here's one example :

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware...648,43649&ap=1

Look at the pictures ; read the product description ;

Read the BULL**** the two of you keep spouting, you mentally challenged,
troll-feeding senile asshole!

On 5/18/2019 1:34 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 19:22:33 +0100, dpb wrote:
....

The mounting plate the rods are welded to that the screws go thru,
silly...

I thought the whole idea was it was invisible.* Jut a rod terminating in
a single screw, all inline.* If there's a plate, surely that's visible?

....

Not if you make the shelf thicker than the plate is tall it isn't, no.

The single screw inline would function the same way with roughly half
the bearing capacity altho one could have larger screw which would have
more holding power.

Again the load would be distributed along the rod and and the moment
introduced would end up in _mostly_ tension on the screw.

That could be done with a smaller flat collar (washer) flange welded to
the rod for some bearing support but unless machined a flat or other way
to grasp would be much harder to mount than the screws and a small plate.

The LV model is for 1" thick shelf with 1/16" of material left
above/below the plate for hiding it which leaves 7/8" for height of the
plate itself. Needs about that much for enough bearing room for the
screw heads for a #8.

What's missing and does limit the load capacity to what the screw
holding power is is that there's no 45 brace of any sort here to relieve
some of the moment arm from the bracket screw.

--

On Sat, 18 May 2019 21:16:24 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/18/2019 1:34 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 19:22:33 +0100, dpb wrote:
...

The mounting plate the rods are welded to that the screws go thru,
silly...

I thought the whole idea was it was invisible. Jut a rod terminating in
a single screw, all inline. If there's a plate, surely that's visible?

...

Not if you make the shelf thicker than the plate is tall it isn't, no.

Surely the shelf can only be an inch or so thick or it'd look ridiculous. That's not enough to give leverage to a bracket.

The single screw inline would function the same way with roughly half
the bearing capacity altho one could have larger screw which would have
more holding power.

Again the load would be distributed along the rod and and the moment
introduced would end up in _mostly_ tension on the screw.

That could be done with a smaller flat collar (washer) flange welded to
the rod for some bearing support but unless machined a flat or other way
to grasp would be much harder to mount than the screws and a small plate.

The LV model is for 1" thick shelf with 1/16" of material left
above/below the plate for hiding it which leaves 7/8" for height of the
plate itself. Needs about that much for enough bearing room for the
screw heads for a #8.

What's missing and does limit the load capacity to what the screw
holding power is is that there's no 45 brace of any sort here to relieve
some of the moment arm from the bracket screw.

Indeed. Which is why I just use a normal bracket. It goes 6 inches down from the shelf and has a 45 degree brace.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 18 May 2019 19:22:33 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/18/2019 9:17 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 03:24:06 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 4:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:42:59 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but
it'll
gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

What do you mean by "sideways"? The screw is in tension, not shear.

It's in shear. The force is downwards, the screw is horizontal.
...

Absolutely not. The screw is in tension.

The shelf isn't hanging on the screw, it's hung on the rod which
transfers the load to the plate

What plate?

The mounting plate the rods are welded to that the screws go thru,
silly...

I thought the whole idea was it was invisible.

It is, that plate is covered by the shelf.

Jut a rod terminating in a single screw, all inline.

That's much harder to install, getting the rod in the
right place to fit into the hole in the shelf and getting
it at right angles to the wall in both directions.

If there's a plate, surely that's visible?

Nope, its covered by the shelf.

by the rigid mounting which tries to
rotate and thus puts the screw in tension.

NB: both screws are position _above_ the rod to resist that transferred
moment.

Weight on the shelf tries to make the screw become lower than
horizontal. Just like if you stretch your arms out and someone hangs
heavy objects on your hands. Your arms are pulled down.

Look at the geometry of the device. The load is _NOT_ placed directly
downward on the screw at the wall; it's placed on the rod welded to the
plate which is screwed to the wall. That load is transferred as a
moment arm on the rod to the plat which is pressed against the wall at
the bottom below the rod and tried to be pulled away from the wall by
the plate at the top--which is where the screws are. Ergo, the screws
are in tension resisting that force; the wall is exerting the equivalent
opposing force on the bottom half of the plate in the opposite direction
to prevent the rotation.

Your arm analogy is flawed in that your shoulder joint is not rigidly
affixed to a surface which is supported against a solid resisting object
below with a tension member above resisting that moment. You feel the
moment, yes; but you don't have the rest of the mechanical device to
help.

If you can't see it, go study a text in engineering statics; I've done
all I can do, no point in just repeating the same basic physics lesson
over and over and over...

What you described sounds like a normal shelf bracket. So how are these
invisible?

The plate is much smaller and is covered by the shelf.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware...648,43649&ap=1

On Sat, 18 May 2019 15:16:24 -0500, dpb, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile idiot, blathered:


Not if you make the shelf thicker than the plate is tall it isn't, no.

NO shelf could ever be as thick as you two prize idiots are! LOL

On Sun, 19 May 2019 06:48:51 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the two abnormal prize idiots' endless bull****

--
Another typical retarded conversation between our two village idiots,
Birdbrain and Rodent Speed:

Birdbrain: "You beat me to it. Plain sex is boring."

Senile Rodent: "Then **** the cats. That wont be boring."

Birdbrain: "Sell me a de-clawing tool first."

Senile Rodent: "Wont help with the teeth."

Birdbrain: "They've never gone for me with their mouths."

Rodent Speed: "They will if you are stupid enough to try ****ing them."

Birdbrain: "No, they always use claws."

Rodent Speed: "They wont if you try ****ing them. Try it and see."

Message-ID:

On Sat, 18 May 2019 21:48:51 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 18 May 2019 19:22:33 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/18/2019 9:17 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 03:24:06 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 4:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:42:59 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but
it'll
gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

What do you mean by "sideways"? The screw is in tension, not shear.

It's in shear. The force is downwards, the screw is horizontal.
...

Absolutely not. The screw is in tension.

The shelf isn't hanging on the screw, it's hung on the rod which
transfers the load to the plate

What plate?

The mounting plate the rods are welded to that the screws go thru,
silly...

I thought the whole idea was it was invisible.

It is, that plate is covered by the shelf.

So the plate is nor bigger than the thickness of the shelf, nowhere near big enough to prevent leverage.

Jut a rod terminating in a single screw, all inline.

That's much harder to install, getting the rod in the
right place to fit into the hole in the shelf and getting
it at right angles to the wall in both directions.

If there's a plate, surely that's visible?

Nope, its covered by the shelf.

by the rigid mounting which tries to
rotate and thus puts the screw in tension.

NB: both screws are position _above_ the rod to resist that transferred
moment.

Weight on the shelf tries to make the screw become lower than
horizontal. Just like if you stretch your arms out and someone hangs
heavy objects on your hands. Your arms are pulled down.

Look at the geometry of the device. The load is _NOT_ placed directly
downward on the screw at the wall; it's placed on the rod welded to the
plate which is screwed to the wall. That load is transferred as a
moment arm on the rod to the plat which is pressed against the wall at
the bottom below the rod and tried to be pulled away from the wall by
the plate at the top--which is where the screws are. Ergo, the screws
are in tension resisting that force; the wall is exerting the equivalent
opposing force on the bottom half of the plate in the opposite direction
to prevent the rotation.

Your arm analogy is flawed in that your shoulder joint is not rigidly
affixed to a surface which is supported against a solid resisting object
below with a tension member above resisting that moment. You feel the
moment, yes; but you don't have the rest of the mechanical device to
help.

If you can't see it, go study a text in engineering statics; I've done
all I can do, no point in just repeating the same basic physics lesson
over and over and over...

What you described sounds like a normal shelf bracket. So how are these
invisible?

The plate is much smaller and is covered by the shelf.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware...648,43649&ap=1

Consider how deep the shelf is. Consider the small distance from the rod to the screw along the tiny plate. Consider the huge leverage ensuing from this. The screw would be easily pulled straight out of the wall.

The plate is much smaller and is covered by the shelf.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware...648,43649&ap=1


Consider how deep the shelf is.
Consider the small distance from the rod to the screw along the tiny plate.
Consider the huge leverage ensuing from this.
The screw would be easily pulled straight out of the wall.


Perhaps consider actually reading the product description
and detailed instructions ...
... or not.
John T.

On Sat, 18 May 2019 17:59:53 -0400, , another brain
damaged, troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered:

Perhaps consider actually reading the product description
and detailed instructions ...
... or not.
John T.

Why should he read it when he can keep slinging you around on his hook
without reading it, you troll-feeding, retarded, senile asshole?

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 18 May 2019 21:16:24 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/18/2019 1:34 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 19:22:33 +0100, dpb wrote:
...

The mounting plate the rods are welded to that the screws go thru,
silly...

I thought the whole idea was it was invisible. Jut a rod terminating in
a single screw, all inline. If there's a plate, surely that's visible?

...

Not if you make the shelf thicker than the plate is tall it isn't, no.

Surely the shelf can only be an inch or so thick or it'd look ridiculous.
That's not enough to give leverage to a bracket.

The single screw inline would function the same way with roughly half
the bearing capacity altho one could have larger screw which would have
more holding power.

Again the load would be distributed along the rod and and the moment
introduced would end up in _mostly_ tension on the screw.

That could be done with a smaller flat collar (washer) flange welded to
the rod for some bearing support but unless machined a flat or other way
to grasp would be much harder to mount than the screws and a small plate.

The LV model is for 1" thick shelf with 1/16" of material left
above/below the plate for hiding it which leaves 7/8" for height of the
plate itself. Needs about that much for enough bearing room for the
screw heads for a #8.

What's missing and does limit the load capacity to what the screw
holding power is is that there's no 45 brace of any sort here to relieve
some of the moment arm from the bracket screw.

Indeed. Which is why I just use a normal bracket. It goes 6 inches down
from the shelf and has a 45 degree brace.

And looks much worse than a floating shelf.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 18 May 2019 21:48:51 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 18 May 2019 19:22:33 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/18/2019 9:17 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 03:24:06 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 4:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:42:59 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/17/2019 3:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...

I can imagine the actual screw taking a fair sideways load, but
it'll
gradually work it's way loose in the wood.

What do you mean by "sideways"? The screw is in tension, not
shear.

It's in shear. The force is downwards, the screw is horizontal.
...

Absolutely not. The screw is in tension.

The shelf isn't hanging on the screw, it's hung on the rod which
transfers the load to the plate

What plate?

The mounting plate the rods are welded to that the screws go thru,
silly...

I thought the whole idea was it was invisible.

It is, that plate is covered by the shelf.

So the plate is nor bigger than the thickness of the shelf,

Correct.

nowhere near big enough to prevent leverage.

Plenty to see that the force on the screws that hold it to
the wall are in tension, pull the screws out of the wall.

Jut a rod terminating in a single screw, all inline.

That's much harder to install, getting the rod in the
right place to fit into the hole in the shelf and getting
it at right angles to the wall in both directions.

If there's a plate, surely that's visible?

Nope, its covered by the shelf.

by the rigid mounting which tries to
rotate and thus puts the screw in tension.

NB: both screws are position _above_ the rod to resist that
transferred
moment.

Weight on the shelf tries to make the screw become lower than
horizontal. Just like if you stretch your arms out and someone hangs
heavy objects on your hands. Your arms are pulled down.

Look at the geometry of the device. The load is _NOT_ placed directly
downward on the screw at the wall; it's placed on the rod welded to the
plate which is screwed to the wall. That load is transferred as a
moment arm on the rod to the plat which is pressed against the wall at
the bottom below the rod and tried to be pulled away from the wall by
the plate at the top--which is where the screws are. Ergo, the screws
are in tension resisting that force; the wall is exerting the
equivalent
opposing force on the bottom half of the plate in the opposite
direction
to prevent the rotation.

Your arm analogy is flawed in that your shoulder joint is not rigidly
affixed to a surface which is supported against a solid resisting
object
below with a tension member above resisting that moment. You feel the
moment, yes; but you don't have the rest of the mechanical device to
help.

If you can't see it, go study a text in engineering statics; I've done
all I can do, no point in just repeating the same basic physics lesson
over and over and over...

What you described sounds like a normal shelf bracket. So how are these
invisible?

The plate is much smaller and is covered by the shelf.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware...648,43649&ap=1

Consider how deep the shelf is.

A floating shelf has to be reasonably deep so that there is still plenty of
shelf above and below the rod which cant be all that thin or it will bend.

Consider the small distance from the rod to the screw along the tiny
plate.

Its not tiny, just smaller than the ****ing great brackets you use.

Consider the huge leverage ensuing from this. The screw would be easily
pulled straight out of the wall.

In practice that one works fine with 100lb on the shelf.

On 5/18/2019 3:25 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 21:16:24 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/18/2019 1:34 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 19:22:33 +0100, dpb wrote:
...

The mounting plate the rods are welded to that the screws go thru,
silly...

I thought the whole idea was it was invisible.* Jut a rod terminating in
a single screw, all inline.* If there's a plate, surely that's visible?

...

Not if you make the shelf thicker than the plate is tall it isn't, no.

Surely the shelf can only be an inch or so thick or it'd look
ridiculous.* That's not enough to give leverage to a bracket.

If you would go look at the LV link a zillion folks have pointed you to,
you would realize that's exactly what it is sized for.

And, it's sufficient leverage for 100-lb distributed load on a 5-1/2"
wide shelf with two arms.

This has gone beyond ridiculous.

--

On Sun, 19 May 2019 08:12:16 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



And looks much worse than a floating shelf.

You two congenital idiots can shove your shelves up your arses through which
both of you keep talking!


--
Another typical retarded "conversation" between the two resident idiots:

Birdbrain: "But imagine how cool it was to own slaves."

Senile Rodent: "Yeah, right. Feed them, clothe them, and fix them when
they're broken.
After all, you paid good money for them. Then you've got to keep an eye
on them all the time."

Birdbrain: "Better than having to give them wages on top of that."

Senile Rodentt: "Specially when they make more slaves for you
and produce their own food and clothes."

MID:

On Sun, 19 May 2019 08:26:16 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the two clinically insane psychopaths' endless sick bull****

--
Another typical retarded "conversation" between the Scottish ****** and the
senile Ozzietard:

Birdbrain: "Horse **** doesn't stink."

Senile Rodent: "It does if you roll in it."

Birdbrain: "I've never worked out why, I assumed it was maybe meateaters
that made stinky ****, but then why does vegetarian human **** stink? Is it
just the fact that we're capable of digesting meat?"

Senile Rodent: "Nope, some cow **** stinks too."

Message-ID:

On Sat, 18 May 2019 17:32:50 -0500, dpb, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile idiot, blathered:



This has gone beyond ridiculous.

Indeed. You two prize idiots ARE such ridiculous assholes! LOL

On Sat, 18 May 2019 23:32:50 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/18/2019 3:25 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 21:16:24 +0100, dpb wrote:

On 5/18/2019 1:34 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 19:22:33 +0100, dpb wrote:
...

The mounting plate the rods are welded to that the screws go thru,
silly...

I thought the whole idea was it was invisible. Jut a rod terminating in
a single screw, all inline. If there's a plate, surely that's visible?

...

Not if you make the shelf thicker than the plate is tall it isn't, no.

Surely the shelf can only be an inch or so thick or it'd look
ridiculous. That's not enough to give leverage to a bracket.

If you would go look at the LV link a zillion folks have pointed you to,
you would realize that's exactly what it is sized for.

And, it's sufficient leverage for 100-lb distributed load on a 5-1/2"
wide shelf with two arms.

This has gone beyond ridiculous.

What's ridiculous is you not realising that a 12 inch shelf pulling against a 1 inch bracket is a LOT of leverage. The bracket has to be about the same height as the depth of the shelf.