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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

wrote
Rod Speed wrote


IBM was broken up tho


No it wasnt. IBM chose to hive off what it
decided werent profitable for them anymore.


Not true at all


We'll see...

IBM split off 7 sectors of it's company into 7 separate operating units


Because that was the fashion at that time. And it wasnt new then
either, IBM was never just one massive great monolith that did
everything from punched card machines, mainframes etc.

and it wasn't until the 90s that they actually started selling them off.


That bit is certainly correct.

The thinking was if the government actually did win and they
were forced to break up, they already would be broken up.


Wrong. It was just the fashion of the time. Hewlett Packard did
it too and so did DEC. So did Xerox and so did AT&T long before
they were broken up. All massive great operations have to do that.

Those sectors were totally independent of each other
and actually bought and sold things between each other.


Sure, but that wasnt due to the threat of being broken up by
govt. And isnt why IBM chose to have a separate operation with
a radically different approach to doing things for the PC either.

The reality was the products were so dissimilar, developed
separately and manufactured separately so there was not
much in common to swap back and forth.


Thats not so true of some parts of IBM like the terminals etc.

In fact in the early 90s when they merged them back together,
there was virtually no economy of scale since virtually none
of the hardware or software were interchangeable and the
training was pretty useless across those platforms too.


Sure, but that was due to the radical diversity of what IBM
chose to get involved in. Of course there is **** all in the
way of interchange ability between punched card equipment
and mainframes. And not much between mainframes and
PCs or even their mid range machines like the Series/1 etc
let alone the 3270 etc.

They had totally different cultures.


Of course they did, mainframes are nothing like
punched card machines, the PC or the PS/2 either.

IBM corporate was just operating as a holding
company, at least in the bookkeeping.


Nothing to do with any threat of breakup.

That was never going to happen.

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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 17:08:39 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:



They gave the PC business away to establish the x86 standard and pave
the way for their proprietary machine. Although most people seldom
ever saw a PS/2 except on TV, it was very successful for IBM in the
business world. The goal was to replace every dumb terminal with a
PS/2 and that was very successful.


You are operating under the delusion that big old IBM, which should be a
dumb monopoly like AT&T if I follow you, somehow could see the whole
future of the computer industry in 1981 when they took a flyer on a
PC when no one at the time could even figure out why anyone needed one
or what they would do with it.


IBM was already talking about the "distributed computing" model in the
mid 70s and the PC was the perfect platform for it.
IBM still envisioned PCs being connected to mainframes and that is why
their main thrust was at the business world. They gave away the x86
consumer business, just to establish the standard. There is no better
way to flood the market than to give the technology away for free.
You also got PC DOS for free with your system. (Not MS DOS, PC DOS,
the one IBM owned)
51xx PCs were totally off the shelf parts and the 5150 PC-1 was
shipped with full schematics and engineering documents.
The 3270 coax card and 5250 twinax cards were part of the original
PS/2 announcement, allowing them to immediately replace a dumb
terminal. They already had 3270 versions of the PC and PC/AT with an
identical keyboard so it was seamless for the operator.

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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote in message


AT&T certainly had Bell Labs but they were not
interested in giving the customer anything new.


Thats a lie with tone dialling and dialling for yourself alone.


They just wanted to make POTS as profitable as they could.


Thats a lie with Bell Labs alone.


Elliott Ness would recognize the phones we had in 1978 and
the only thing that might surprise him is touch tone and that
the Princess phone had a light in it. It took them 50 years to
give us a phone that wasn't black. The only major change in
all of that time was touch tone and that was for them not us.


Bull**** on that last.


It was really designed for inter trunk switching of long distance
calls and it was just an after thought that it got into the phone
itself.
Again it was mostly to save them money on operators, just like the
dial phone..


But the addition of tone dialling didnt.


Tone dialing was originally invented to allow nation
wide automatic switching of inner city trunks.


Yes.

By extending that to the phone they automated direct dial
long distance and got rid of the long distance operator.


That happened with rotary dialling on the phone. And
thats still supported on the vast bulk of exchanges, long
distance dialling using rotary dialling on the phone.

It was the same way the rotary dial got rid of the regular operators.


Quite different, actually.

It was all about cutting labor cost


Tone dialling wasnt.

and charging you extra for it.


Only AT&T did that. No one else world wide did.

As an added bonus touch dialing shortened the
time you were using the Originating Register in
the switch so they didn't need as many of them.


In fact the entire exchange technology changed,
it wasnt just about the number of registers.

This was about saving money, no more no less.


Bull****.

It was also the main driver for electronic switching.


It was in fact what made that possible.

When Sprint bought the Ft Myers TelCo, got rid of their #5 Crossbar
switch and went to ESS they went from 6-7 guys running around
across 2 floors of a big building cleaning relays and running jumper
wires to 2 computer racks and 1 big wiring hub that never changes.


That was due to the much better technology, not tone dialling.
And its silly to claim that the breakup of AT&T was the only
thing that allowed a move from crossbar exchanges. Bell
Labs was in fact the first to do a proper digital exchange.
So much for your silly claim that they didnt do innovation.

There was one guy sitting at the console drinking coffee and
a bunch of people laid off. The "Frame Hops" (switchmen)
went from 15 to 4 or 5 as fast as the union would let them.


Again, nothing to do with tone dialling.

The 3d floor and half of the 2d floor was
empty and leased out as office space.
It was all about the money,


Its much more complicated than that.

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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

wrote
Rod Speed wrote


There are no drug company monopolys, they
compete with each other very aggressively indeed.


Not in drugs they have patents on


Yes, with those too, because there are no drugs
which are the only patented drug that can be
used for a particularly medical condition. Any
drug has to compete with what the competitors
have for that particular medical condition.

And it isnt hard to make small changes to a
particular drug and have your own patented
drug that competes in the market for that
medical condition, so no monopoly is possible.

and it is far too easy in the US to extend a patent.


Still not a monopoly when that happens.
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

wrote
rbowman wrote


There must still be money in big iron which
is where IBM always was most comfortable.


I worked with a guy from Boulder in the early 90s and he said
mainframes were going to become file servers, nothing more
nothing less. That is pretty much what IBM sells now.


That's not accurate.

We call it the cloud these days but it is pretty much what the
Boulder, Raleigh, Atlanta and the other big IBM data hubs were then.


But there are far more file servers that have nothing to do with IBM.

Once we had PCs on our desk I found it a lot easier to log onto
VM, use SQL/DB2 to cherry pick a dataset, download it and use
dBase to actually crunch my numbers. It seemed faster even on
a 20m 386 and the dBase language was more powerful than SQL.


Sure, but that's not how the massive transaction processing systems are
done and they are what does the bulk of commercial computing now.

I was running pure DOS on an OS/2 (hardware) machine
so I had 12 meg of RAM to spare. I could load my whole
dataset in RAM and crunch it there. That really screams.



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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'



wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 17:08:39 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:



They gave the PC business away to establish the x86 standard and pave
the way for their proprietary machine. Although most people seldom
ever saw a PS/2 except on TV, it was very successful for IBM in the
business world. The goal was to replace every dumb terminal with a
PS/2 and that was very successful.


You are operating under the delusion that big old IBM, which should be a
dumb monopoly like AT&T if I follow you, somehow could see the whole
future of the computer industry in 1981 when they took a flyer on a
PC when no one at the time could even figure out why anyone needed one
or what they would do with it.


IBM was already talking about the "distributed
computing" model in the mid 70s


Yes and others were doing it too, particularly DEC.

and the PC was the perfect platform for it.


No it was not. It didn't have anything like the horsepower
then to do much of that. Useful for word processing and
spreadsheets etc but not for true distributed computing.

IBM still envisioned PCs being connected to mainframes


That's wrong too. Most PCs never were.
They were standalone computers.

and that is why their main thrust was at the business world.


It never was with the PC. That came later with
the PS/2 and still wasn't true with the stupid PCjr.

They gave away the x86 consumer business,


Bull**** they did.

just to establish the standard.


That didn't happen either. And while they tried to do that with
the PS/2, they failed dismally because the industry ignored it.

There is no better way to flood the market
than to give the technology away for free.


They never flooded the market. And they realised their
mistake with including the circuit diagrams and bios
code with the PC and XT and didn't do it with the AT

You also got PC DOS for free with your system.
(Not MS DOS, PC DOS, the one IBM owned)


51xx PCs were totally off the shelf parts and the 5150 PC-1
was shipped with full schematics and engineering documents.


And the bios code listing too.

The 3270 coax card and 5250 twinax cards were part of the original
PS/2 announcement, allowing them to immediately replace a dumb
terminal. They already had 3270 versions of the PC and PC/AT with
an identical keyboard so it was seamless for the operator.


And few bothered to buy them.

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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 13:37:55 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

There are drugs that have been out there for decades and they
make some insignificant change that allows a whole new patent
to be issued without giving up the right to the old one.

But other drug companys are free to do that with your original drug too.


I don't know about OZ but in the US, the original
drug's patent gets extended, it isn't a new patent.


You were there one the claimed a whole new patent.


The drop dead date looks like a new patent but it is really just an
extension on the old one. The original drug is still protected.
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 14:23:58 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

wrote
Rod Speed wrote


IBM was broken up tho


No it wasnt. IBM chose to hive off what it
decided werent profitable for them anymore.


Not true at all


We'll see...

IBM split off 7 sectors of it's company into 7 separate operating units


Because that was the fashion at that time. And it wasnt new then
either, IBM was never just one massive great monolith that did
everything from punched card machines, mainframes etc.

and it wasn't until the 90s that they actually started selling them off.


That bit is certainly correct.

The thinking was if the government actually did win and they
were forced to break up, they already would be broken up.


Wrong. It was just the fashion of the time. Hewlett Packard did
it too and so did DEC. So did Xerox and so did AT&T long before
they were broken up. All massive great operations have to do that.

Those sectors were totally independent of each other
and actually bought and sold things between each other.


Sure, but that wasnt due to the threat of being broken up by
govt. And isnt why IBM chose to have a separate operation with
a radically different approach to doing things for the PC either.

The reality was the products were so dissimilar, developed
separately and manufactured separately so there was not
much in common to swap back and forth.


Thats not so true of some parts of IBM like the terminals etc.

In fact in the early 90s when they merged them back together,
there was virtually no economy of scale since virtually none
of the hardware or software were interchangeable and the
training was pretty useless across those platforms too.


Sure, but that was due to the radical diversity of what IBM
chose to get involved in. Of course there is **** all in the
way of interchange ability between punched card equipment
and mainframes. And not much between mainframes and
PCs or even their mid range machines like the Series/1 etc
let alone the 3270 etc.

They had totally different cultures.


Of course they did, mainframes are nothing like
punched card machines, the PC or the PS/2 either.

IBM corporate was just operating as a holding
company, at least in the bookkeeping.


Nothing to do with any threat of breakup.

That was never going to happen.



OK I guess a person living in the belly of the beast does not know as
much as someone on the other side of the planet but that is what they
told us at the time.
I guess the IBM people you worked for in Oz had a different story.
Oh wait the DoJ was not trying to Prosecute IBM, World Trade in
Australia.
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 14:39:02 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote in message


AT&T certainly had Bell Labs but they were not
interested in giving the customer anything new.


Thats a lie with tone dialling and dialling for yourself alone.


They just wanted to make POTS as profitable as they could.


Thats a lie with Bell Labs alone.


Elliott Ness would recognize the phones we had in 1978 and
the only thing that might surprise him is touch tone and that
the Princess phone had a light in it. It took them 50 years to
give us a phone that wasn't black. The only major change in
all of that time was touch tone and that was for them not us.


Bull**** on that last.


It was really designed for inter trunk switching of long distance
calls and it was just an after thought that it got into the phone
itself.
Again it was mostly to save them money on operators, just like the
dial phone..


But the addition of tone dialling didnt.


Tone dialing was originally invented to allow nation
wide automatic switching of inner city trunks.


Yes.

By extending that to the phone they automated direct dial
long distance and got rid of the long distance operator.


That happened with rotary dialling on the phone. And
thats still supported on the vast bulk of exchanges, long
distance dialling using rotary dialling on the phone.

It was the same way the rotary dial got rid of the regular operators.


Quite different, actually.

It was all about cutting labor cost


Tone dialling wasnt.

and charging you extra for it.


Only AT&T did that. No one else world wide did.

As an added bonus touch dialing shortened the
time you were using the Originating Register in
the switch so they didn't need as many of them.


In fact the entire exchange technology changed,
it wasnt just about the number of registers.

This was about saving money, no more no less.


Bull****.

It was also the main driver for electronic switching.


It was in fact what made that possible.

When Sprint bought the Ft Myers TelCo, got rid of their #5 Crossbar
switch and went to ESS they went from 6-7 guys running around
across 2 floors of a big building cleaning relays and running jumper
wires to 2 computer racks and 1 big wiring hub that never changes.


That was due to the much better technology, not tone dialling.
And its silly to claim that the breakup of AT&T was the only
thing that allowed a move from crossbar exchanges. Bell
Labs was in fact the first to do a proper digital exchange.
So much for your silly claim that they didnt do innovation.

There was one guy sitting at the console drinking coffee and
a bunch of people laid off. The "Frame Hops" (switchmen)
went from 15 to 4 or 5 as fast as the union would let them.


Again, nothing to do with tone dialling.

The 3d floor and half of the 2d floor was
empty and leased out as office space.
It was all about the money,


Its much more complicated than that.


You really drank the corporate Kool Ade didn't you?


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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 15:03:50 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 17:08:39 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:



They gave the PC business away to establish the x86 standard and pave
the way for their proprietary machine. Although most people seldom
ever saw a PS/2 except on TV, it was very successful for IBM in the
business world. The goal was to replace every dumb terminal with a
PS/2 and that was very successful.

You are operating under the delusion that big old IBM, which should be a
dumb monopoly like AT&T if I follow you, somehow could see the whole
future of the computer industry in 1981 when they took a flyer on a
PC when no one at the time could even figure out why anyone needed one
or what they would do with it.


IBM was already talking about the "distributed
computing" model in the mid 70s


Yes and others were doing it too, particularly DEC.

and the PC was the perfect platform for it.


No it was not. It didn't have anything like the horsepower
then to do much of that. Useful for word processing and
spreadsheets etc but not for true distributed computing.

IBM still envisioned PCs being connected to mainframes


That's wrong too. Most PCs never were.
They were standalone computers.

and that is why their main thrust was at the business world.


It never was with the PC. That came later with
the PS/2 and still wasn't true with the stupid PCjr.

They gave away the x86 consumer business,


Bull**** they did.

just to establish the standard.


That didn't happen either. And while they tried to do that with
the PS/2, they failed dismally because the industry ignored it.

There is no better way to flood the market
than to give the technology away for free.


They never flooded the market. And they realised their
mistake with including the circuit diagrams and bios
code with the PC and XT and didn't do it with the AT

You also got PC DOS for free with your system.
(Not MS DOS, PC DOS, the one IBM owned)


51xx PCs were totally off the shelf parts and the 5150 PC-1
was shipped with full schematics and engineering documents.


And the bios code listing too.

The 3270 coax card and 5250 twinax cards were part of the original
PS/2 announcement, allowing them to immediately replace a dumb
terminal. They already had 3270 versions of the PC and PC/AT with
an identical keyboard so it was seamless for the operator.


And few bothered to buy them.


I am not sure about what happened in the upside down world south of
the equator but we sold the **** out of PCs being used as smart
terminals here in the US. In fact by the early 90s it was getting hard
to find dumb terminals in anything but the places with the simplest
applications with marginally trained workers. Places like offices,
insurance companies, hospitals and such, they had gotten rid of their
dumb terminals and put in PCs by the time I retired in 96.
They were even using PCs in Burger King and Wendy's for the cash
registers. BK used a regular PS/2 M/30 and Wendy's had them in a
custom cabinet but it was still a M/30 system board, unaltered in any
way.
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'



wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 13:37:55 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

There are drugs that have been out there for decades and they
make some insignificant change that allows a whole new patent
to be issued without giving up the right to the old one.

But other drug companys are free to do that with your original drug too.


I don't know about OZ but in the US, the original
drug's patent gets extended, it isn't a new patent.


You were there one that claimed a whole new patent.


The drop dead date looks like a new patent but it is really just
an extension on the old one. The original drug is still protected.


But there is no whole new patent as you claimed.

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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'



wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 14:23:58 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

wrote
Rod Speed wrote


IBM was broken up tho


No it wasnt. IBM chose to hive off what it
decided werent profitable for them anymore.


Not true at all


We'll see...

IBM split off 7 sectors of it's company into 7 separate operating units


Because that was the fashion at that time. And it wasnt new then
either, IBM was never just one massive great monolith that did
everything from punched card machines, mainframes etc.

and it wasn't until the 90s that they actually started selling them off.


That bit is certainly correct.

The thinking was if the government actually did win and they
were forced to break up, they already would be broken up.


Wrong. It was just the fashion of the time. Hewlett Packard did
it too and so did DEC. So did Xerox and so did AT&T long before
they were broken up. All massive great operations have to do that.

Those sectors were totally independent of each other
and actually bought and sold things between each other.


Sure, but that wasnt due to the threat of being broken up by
govt. And isnt why IBM chose to have a separate operation with
a radically different approach to doing things for the PC either.

The reality was the products were so dissimilar, developed
separately and manufactured separately so there was not
much in common to swap back and forth.


Thats not so true of some parts of IBM like the terminals etc.

In fact in the early 90s when they merged them back together,
there was virtually no economy of scale since virtually none
of the hardware or software were interchangeable and the
training was pretty useless across those platforms too.


Sure, but that was due to the radical diversity of what IBM
chose to get involved in. Of course there is **** all in the
way of interchange ability between punched card equipment
and mainframes. And not much between mainframes and
PCs or even their mid range machines like the Series/1 etc
let alone the 3270 etc.

They had totally different cultures.


Of course they did, mainframes are nothing like
punched card machines, the PC or the PS/2 either.

IBM corporate was just operating as a holding
company, at least in the bookkeeping.


Nothing to do with any threat of breakup.

That was never going to happen.


OK I guess a person living in the belly of the beast does not
know as much as someone on the other side of the planet


Got nothing to do with who lives where.

but that is what they told us at the time.


Those that said that to you didnt have a clue about why IBM did
that. And they had always done that too, most obviously with
the punched card and time machine and typewriter parts of IBM.

I guess the IBM people you worked for in Oz had a different story.


Has nothing to do with any story from any IBM individual,
particularly with what IBM had always done since it moved
on from pure hardware like punched card machines, time
machines and typewriters to computers.

Oh wait the DoJ was not trying to
Prosecute IBM, World Trade in Australia.


Irrelevant to what they actually did in the USA.

They were never going to break up IBM. The most they were
ever going to do was monster IBM into unbundling etc.

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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'



wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 14:39:02 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote in message


AT&T certainly had Bell Labs but they were not
interested in giving the customer anything new.


Thats a lie with tone dialling and dialling for yourself alone.


They just wanted to make POTS as profitable as they could.


Thats a lie with Bell Labs alone.


Elliott Ness would recognize the phones we had in 1978 and
the only thing that might surprise him is touch tone and that
the Princess phone had a light in it. It took them 50 years to
give us a phone that wasn't black. The only major change in
all of that time was touch tone and that was for them not us.


Bull**** on that last.


It was really designed for inter trunk switching of long distance
calls and it was just an after thought that it got into the phone
itself.
Again it was mostly to save them money on operators, just like the
dial phone..


But the addition of tone dialling didnt.


Tone dialing was originally invented to allow nation
wide automatic switching of inner city trunks.


Yes.

By extending that to the phone they automated direct dial
long distance and got rid of the long distance operator.


That happened with rotary dialling on the phone. And
thats still supported on the vast bulk of exchanges, long
distance dialling using rotary dialling on the phone.

It was the same way the rotary dial got rid of the regular operators.


Quite different, actually.

It was all about cutting labor cost


Tone dialling wasnt.

and charging you extra for it.


Only AT&T did that. No one else world wide did.

As an added bonus touch dialing shortened the
time you were using the Originating Register in
the switch so they didn't need as many of them.


In fact the entire exchange technology changed,
it wasnt just about the number of registers.

This was about saving money, no more no less.


Bull****.

It was also the main driver for electronic switching.


It was in fact what made that possible.

When Sprint bought the Ft Myers TelCo, got rid of their #5 Crossbar
switch and went to ESS they went from 6-7 guys running around
across 2 floors of a big building cleaning relays and running jumper
wires to 2 computer racks and 1 big wiring hub that never changes.


That was due to the much better technology, not tone dialling.
And its silly to claim that the breakup of AT&T was the only
thing that allowed a move from crossbar exchanges. Bell
Labs was in fact the first to do a proper digital exchange.
So much for your silly claim that they didnt do innovation.

There was one guy sitting at the console drinking coffee and
a bunch of people laid off. The "Frame Hops" (switchmen)
went from 15 to 4 or 5 as fast as the union would let them.


Again, nothing to do with tone dialling.

The 3d floor and half of the 2d floor was
empty and leased out as office space.
It was all about the money,


Its much more complicated than that.


You really drank the corporate Kool Ade didn't you?


Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.



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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'



wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 15:03:50 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 17:08:39 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-5,
wrote:


They gave the PC business away to establish the x86 standard and pave
the way for their proprietary machine. Although most people seldom
ever saw a PS/2 except on TV, it was very successful for IBM in the
business world. The goal was to replace every dumb terminal with a
PS/2 and that was very successful.

You are operating under the delusion that big old IBM, which should be a
dumb monopoly like AT&T if I follow you, somehow could see the whole
future of the computer industry in 1981 when they took a flyer on a
PC when no one at the time could even figure out why anyone needed one
or what they would do with it.


IBM was already talking about the "distributed
computing" model in the mid 70s


Yes and others were doing it too, particularly DEC.

and the PC was the perfect platform for it.


No it was not. It didn't have anything like the horsepower
then to do much of that. Useful for word processing and
spreadsheets etc but not for true distributed computing.

IBM still envisioned PCs being connected to mainframes


That's wrong too. Most PCs never were.
They were standalone computers.

and that is why their main thrust was at the business world.


It never was with the PC. That came later with
the PS/2 and still wasn't true with the stupid PCjr.


You can't keep ignoring the PCjr, it's the proof that
your claim about what IBM's intentions were with
the PC are just plain wrong. They were clearly
attempting to cover the entire market with their
products and failed dismally at the low end.

An expensive operation like IBM was never going
to make any money on something like the PCjr and
it was never about setting standards with it either.

They gave away the x86 consumer business,


Bull**** they did.

just to establish the standard.


That didn't happen either. And while they tried to do that with
the PS/2, they failed dismally because the industry ignored it.

There is no better way to flood the market
than to give the technology away for free.


They never flooded the market. And they realised their
mistake with including the circuit diagrams and bios
code with the PC and XT and didn't do it with the AT

You also got PC DOS for free with your system.
(Not MS DOS, PC DOS, the one IBM owned)


51xx PCs were totally off the shelf parts and the 5150 PC-1
was shipped with full schematics and engineering documents.


And the bios code listing too.

The 3270 coax card and 5250 twinax cards were part of the original
PS/2 announcement, allowing them to immediately replace a dumb
terminal. They already had 3270 versions of the PC and PC/AT with
an identical keyboard so it was seamless for the operator.


And few bothered to buy them.


I am not sure about what happened in the upside down
world south of the equator but we sold the **** out of
PCs being used as smart terminals here in the US.


**** all in fact compared with 3270s etc. The absolute
vast bulk of PCs, XTs and ATs were in fact used as
standalone computers used for word processing,
spreadsheets and later running stuff like POS software.

In fact by the time that most small businesses were
computerised, **** all used any IBM PCs even in the USA.

In fact by the early 90s it was getting hard to find dumb
terminals in anything but the places with the simplest
applications with marginally trained workers.


Sure, but that's much later than the original PC.

Places like offices, insurance companies, hospitals and
such, they had gotten rid of their dumb terminals and
put in PCs by the time I retired in 96.


Yes, but they were not IBM machines.

They were even using PCs in Burger King
and Wendy's for the cash registers.


But hardly ever with an IBM machine.

BK used a regular PS/2 M/30 and Wendy's
had them in a custom cabinet but it was still
a M/30 system board, unaltered in any way.


And far more didn't use any IBM hardware at all.

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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'greendream'

On 2/10/19 12:27 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.



If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically decimated AT&T here. Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT$T only offers 6Mbps Slowverse.
Want TV from Slowverse? Here, nail this fugly dish up on your roof.


Looks to me like the only innovations at American Telegraph are their deceptive marketing lies.

https://arstechnica.com/information-...-service-5g-e/
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 10:18:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 15:38:45 -0700, rbowman wrote:

On 02/09/2019 08:35 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
The medical schools only let in so many people each year to be doctors
and nurses. I remember when the machines to 'blast' the kindey stones
first came out. They would not let the local hospital have one because
it would make the treatment cost come down due to competition.


It varies by the state but the nurse practitioners have been lobbying to
be allowed to practice independently across the board and that's meeting
resistance. I have a yearly wellness physical coming up and a NP
certainly could handle that. In fact, when my doctor was on maternity
leave, the NP did. Still, many states require that they are under the
supervision of a doctor.


I have a new "Doctor" and I have had 3 visits without ever even seeing
the guy. Two techs are all I have ever seen. For all I know this is a
weekend at Bernie's thing, he died a year ago and they are still
cashing his checks.
I have actually heard this is not unusual.
The other doctor who used to at least come in and look at you for a
minute is a "Concierge" now and you have to pay him to join his club.


That's what our doctor did. My husband (who really likes the guy and
who consumes what seems like a lot of medical services) is joining
the club. I'm finding a new doctor. I can't remember the last time
I had something that needed anything more than a Physician's Assistant.

Cindy Hamilton
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 6:21:56 AM UTC-5, Randull L. Stephenson wrote:
On 2/10/19 12:27 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.



If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically decimated AT&T here. Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT$T only offers 6Mbps Slowverse.
Want TV from Slowverse? Here, nail this fugly dish up on your roof.


Looks to me like the only innovations at American Telegraph are their deceptive marketing lies.

https://arstechnica.com/information-...-service-5g-e/



Did Comcast invent the transistor? You're confusing buying and deploying
equipment, being faster to deploy new gear, more willing to invest in
infrastructure, with research and innovation.



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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 16:37:44 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 15:03:50 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 17:08:39 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-5,
wrote:


They gave the PC business away to establish the x86 standard and pave
the way for their proprietary machine. Although most people seldom
ever saw a PS/2 except on TV, it was very successful for IBM in the
business world. The goal was to replace every dumb terminal with a
PS/2 and that was very successful.

You are operating under the delusion that big old IBM, which should be a
dumb monopoly like AT&T if I follow you, somehow could see the whole
future of the computer industry in 1981 when they took a flyer on a
PC when no one at the time could even figure out why anyone needed one
or what they would do with it.

IBM was already talking about the "distributed
computing" model in the mid 70s

Yes and others were doing it too, particularly DEC.

and the PC was the perfect platform for it.

No it was not. It didn't have anything like the horsepower
then to do much of that. Useful for word processing and
spreadsheets etc but not for true distributed computing.

IBM still envisioned PCs being connected to mainframes

That's wrong too. Most PCs never were.
They were standalone computers.

and that is why their main thrust was at the business world.

It never was with the PC. That came later with
the PS/2 and still wasn't true with the stupid PCjr.


You can't keep ignoring the PCjr, it's the proof that
your claim about what IBM's intentions were with
the PC are just plain wrong. They were clearly
attempting to cover the entire market with their
products and failed dismally at the low end.

An expensive operation like IBM was never going
to make any money on something like the PCjr and
it was never about setting standards with it either.

The PC Jr was a joke as was the PS/1 and I doubt anyone really cared
much about it. That was at a time when IBM was throwing anything they
could at the wall and hoping it would stick. It was marketed by the
remnants of the typewriter division who knew their ass was grass. They
also tried to sell a copier and a bunch of other bull**** that never
went anywhere. The whole division was sold for a pittance to Kodak.


They gave away the x86 consumer business,

Bull**** they did.

just to establish the standard.

That didn't happen either. And while they tried to do that with
the PS/2, they failed dismally because the industry ignored it.

There is no better way to flood the market
than to give the technology away for free.

They never flooded the market. And they realised their
mistake with including the circuit diagrams and bios
code with the PC and XT and didn't do it with the AT

You also got PC DOS for free with your system.
(Not MS DOS, PC DOS, the one IBM owned)

51xx PCs were totally off the shelf parts and the 5150 PC-1
was shipped with full schematics and engineering documents.

And the bios code listing too.

The 3270 coax card and 5250 twinax cards were part of the original
PS/2 announcement, allowing them to immediately replace a dumb
terminal. They already had 3270 versions of the PC and PC/AT with
an identical keyboard so it was seamless for the operator.

And few bothered to buy them.


I am not sure about what happened in the upside down
world south of the equator but we sold the **** out of
PCs being used as smart terminals here in the US.


**** all in fact compared with 3270s etc. The absolute
vast bulk of PCs, XTs and ATs were in fact used as
standalone computers used for word processing,
spreadsheets and later running stuff like POS software.


If they had a mainframe, the PCs were networked to it most of the
time.
If they didn't have a mainframe they were not big enough for IBM to
give a **** about them.



In fact by the time that most small businesses were
computerised, **** all used any IBM PCs even in the USA.

In fact by the early 90s it was getting hard to find dumb
terminals in anything but the places with the simplest
applications with marginally trained workers.


Sure, but that's much later than the original PC.

Places like offices, insurance companies, hospitals and
such, they had gotten rid of their dumb terminals and
put in PCs by the time I retired in 96.


Yes, but they were not IBM machines.

They were even using PCs in Burger King
and Wendy's for the cash registers.


But hardly ever with an IBM machine.



BK used a regular PS/2 M/30 and Wendy's
had them in a custom cabinet but it was still
a M/30 system board, unaltered in any way.


And far more didn't use any IBM hardware at all.


It was the standard for corporate owned restaurants. Franchise owners
could run what they want but they still had to talk to the same
mainframes
  #142   Report Post  
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 05:26:49 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 6:21:56 AM UTC-5, Randull L. Stephenson wrote:
On 2/10/19 12:27 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.



If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically decimated AT&T here. Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT$T only offers 6Mbps Slowverse.
Want TV from Slowverse? Here, nail this fugly dish up on your roof.


Looks to me like the only innovations at American Telegraph are their deceptive marketing lies.

https://arstechnica.com/information-...-service-5g-e/



Did Comcast invent the transistor? You're confusing buying and deploying
equipment, being faster to deploy new gear, more willing to invest in
infrastructure, with research and innovation.



They didn't invent the transistor so Sony could make little radios you
could hold up to your ear. They were trying to get rid of the half
billion relays in their switching equipment. It was still to support
the POTS business that they had no real intent on changing. With no
competition, why change a very successful business model?
The innovation I am talking about is what you offer the customer and
from the customer standpoint, POTS was pretty much the same service
for 80 years. Data was a side line that they grudgingly accepted but
you still had to use their modems and they had no interest in going
faster that 2400 BPS. It wasn't until they unbundled the phone lines
that companies like Paradyne started trellis modulation and got the
bit rate going faster than the baud rate. Then once the consumer
market opened companies like Hayes started modems that didn't cost
more than a car and with the lines unbundled you didn't have to rent
an AT&T coupler to hook it up.
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'greendream'

On 2/10/2019 8:26 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 6:21:56 AM UTC-5, Randull L. Stephenson wrote:
On 2/10/19 12:27 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.


If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically decimated AT&T here. Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT$T only offers 6Mbps Slowverse.
Want TV from Slowverse? Here, nail this fugly dish up on your roof.


Looks to me like the only innovations at American Telegraph are their deceptive marketing lies.

https://arstechnica.com/information-...-service-5g-e/


Did Comcast invent the transistor? You're confusing buying and deploying
equipment, being faster to deploy new gear, more willing to invest in
infrastructure, with research and innovation.



When are the slugs at AT$T going to roll out their ISDN Picturephone?

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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 9:21:55 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 05:26:49 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 6:21:56 AM UTC-5, Randull L. Stephenson wrote:
On 2/10/19 12:27 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.


If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically decimated AT&T here. Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT$T only offers 6Mbps Slowverse.
Want TV from Slowverse? Here, nail this fugly dish up on your roof.


Looks to me like the only innovations at American Telegraph are their deceptive marketing lies.

https://arstechnica.com/information-...-service-5g-e/



Did Comcast invent the transistor? You're confusing buying and deploying
equipment, being faster to deploy new gear, more willing to invest in
infrastructure, with research and innovation.



They didn't invent the transistor so Sony could make little radios you
could hold up to your ear. They were trying to get rid of the half
billion relays in their switching equipment.


Were you there? The phone system also had need for amplifiers, just like
a Sony radio. AT&T invested billions in all kinds of research, without
knowing what it would ultimately be used for. They won a Nobel prize for
trapping atoms with a laser, for example. That's pretty far away from
any immediate business need.



It was still to support
the POTS business that they had no real intent on changing.


Yadda, yadda, yadda. I suppose money businesses give to charity is just
to support the current business model, with no intent on changing.
AT&T did change. They deployed electronic switches and laid fiber optic
cable across the country, before there was any internet. They invented
cellular and were deploying it before the break up. Would it have occured
faster with competition, almost certainly yes. But that doesn't take away
from the fact that they were a tech power house that won 8 Nobel prizes,
including the invention of the transistor. You make it sound like they
are some old coal company, that did nothing.







With no
competition, why change a very successful business model?


Who's arguing that?



The innovation I am talking about is what you offer the customer and
from the customer standpoint,


That's fine. It does not make it true that AT&T didn't also spend a
fortune on research, some of which changed the world forever, eg the
transistor. And that research into advanced areas of physics, math,
chemistry, was funded by the monopoly profits. AT&T could have just
handed out as a dividend to the stockholders if they were as greedy and
lazy as you make them sound.





POTS was pretty much the same service
for 80 years. Data was a side line that they grudgingly accepted but
you still had to use their modems and they had no interest in going
faster that 2400 BPS. It wasn't until they unbundled the phone lines
that companies like Paradyne started trellis modulation and got the
bit rate going faster than the baud rate. Then once the consumer
market opened companies like Hayes started modems that didn't cost
more than a car and with the lines unbundled you didn't have to rent
an AT&T coupler to hook it up.


It wasn't just the unbundling. You ignore the other forces that made
all that possible that were also occurring, principally the rapid
advancement of semiconductor technology. You simply couldn't build a 56K
modem in 1970 or 1980 that was economically viable at all because the
semiconductor industry wasn't there yet with the process technology
and manufacturing to support it. The modulation techniques required
digital signal processing and those chips didn't exist yet, nor could
they be fabricated, because they would have been far to complex for
the process technology at the time. It would have taken enough ICs
to fill a cabinet and cost $50K. All that had to advance, and it
wasn't driven primarily by telecom, it was driven by all the uses of ICs, collectively, across all markets, in all the world. Once the fabs to
support the required transistor density evolved, then that cabinet
could fit into a small modem that cost $200.


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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

Randull L. Stephenson wrote
Rod Speed wrote


Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.


If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically decimated
AT&T here. Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT&T only offers 6Mbps
Slowverse. Want TV from Slowverse? Here, nail this fugly dish up on your
roof.


What was being discussed was what innovation
AT&T did before it was broken up in 1982

Looks to me like the only innovations at American Telegraph are their
deceptive marketing lies.


https://arstechnica.com/information-...-service-5g-e/




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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'



wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 16:37:44 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 15:03:50 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
m...
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 17:08:39 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-5,
wrote:


They gave the PC business away to establish the x86 standard and
pave
the way for their proprietary machine. Although most people seldom
ever saw a PS/2 except on TV, it was very successful for IBM in the
business world. The goal was to replace every dumb terminal with a
PS/2 and that was very successful.

You are operating under the delusion that big old IBM, which should be
a
dumb monopoly like AT&T if I follow you, somehow could see the whole
future of the computer industry in 1981 when they took a flyer on a
PC when no one at the time could even figure out why anyone needed one
or what they would do with it.

IBM was already talking about the "distributed
computing" model in the mid 70s

Yes and others were doing it too, particularly DEC.

and the PC was the perfect platform for it.

No it was not. It didn't have anything like the horsepower
then to do much of that. Useful for word processing and
spreadsheets etc but not for true distributed computing.

IBM still envisioned PCs being connected to mainframes

That's wrong too. Most PCs never were.
They were standalone computers.

and that is why their main thrust was at the business world.

It never was with the PC. That came later with
the PS/2 and still wasn't true with the stupid PCjr.


You can't keep ignoring the PCjr, it's the proof that
your claim about what IBM's intentions were with
the PC are just plain wrong. They were clearly
attempting to cover the entire market with their
products and failed dismally at the low end.

An expensive operation like IBM was never going
to make any money on something like the PCjr and
it was never about setting standards with it either.


The PC Jr was a joke as was the PS/1 and
I doubt anyone really cared much about it.


Sure, but it is the evidence that IBM was clearly attempting
to flog PCs to much more than just business and clearly
wasn't about setting standards as you claimed.

That was at a time when IBM was throwing anything they could
at the wall and hoping it would stick. It was marketed by the
remnants of the typewriter division who knew their ass was grass.
They also tried to sell a copier and a bunch of other bull**** that never
went anywhere. The whole division was sold for a pittance to Kodak.


They gave away the x86 consumer business,

Bull**** they did.

just to establish the standard.

That didn't happen either. And while they tried to do that with
the PS/2, they failed dismally because the industry ignored it.

There is no better way to flood the market
than to give the technology away for free.

They never flooded the market. And they realised their
mistake with including the circuit diagrams and bios
code with the PC and XT and didn't do it with the AT

You also got PC DOS for free with your system.
(Not MS DOS, PC DOS, the one IBM owned)

51xx PCs were totally off the shelf parts and the 5150 PC-1
was shipped with full schematics and engineering documents.

And the bios code listing too.

The 3270 coax card and 5250 twinax cards were part of the original
PS/2 announcement, allowing them to immediately replace a dumb
terminal. They already had 3270 versions of the PC and PC/AT with
an identical keyboard so it was seamless for the operator.

And few bothered to buy them.


I am not sure about what happened in the upside down
world south of the equator but we sold the **** out of
PCs being used as smart terminals here in the US.


**** all in fact compared with 3270s etc. The absolute
vast bulk of PCs, XTs and ATs were in fact used as
standalone computers used for word processing,
spreadsheets and later running stuff like POS software.


If they had a mainframe,


**** all that bought PCs, XTs and ATs did.

the PCs were networked to it most of the time.


Bull****.

If they didn't have a mainframe they were not
big enough for IBM to give a **** about them.


Pity about who bought all those PCs, XTs and ATs.

In fact by the time that most small businesses were
computerised, **** all used any IBM PCs even in the USA.

In fact by the early 90s it was getting hard to find dumb
terminals in anything but the places with the simplest
applications with marginally trained workers.


Sure, but that's much later than the original PC.

Places like offices, insurance companies, hospitals and
such, they had gotten rid of their dumb terminals and
put in PCs by the time I retired in 96.


Yes, but they were not IBM machines.

They were even using PCs in Burger King
and Wendy's for the cash registers.


But hardly ever with an IBM machine.



BK used a regular PS/2 M/30 and Wendy's
had them in a custom cabinet but it was still
a M/30 system board, unaltered in any way.


And far more didn't use any IBM hardware at all.


It was the standard for corporate owned restaurants.
Franchise owners could run what they want but they
still had to talk to the same mainframes


But didn't have to be PS/2s to do that.

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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'greendream'

On 2/10/19 11:31 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Randull L. Stephenson wrote
Rod Speed wrote


Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.


If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically decimated AT&T here.Â* Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT&T only offers 6Mbps Slowverse. Want TV from Slowverse?Â* Here, nail this fugly dish up on your roof.


What was being discussed was what innovation
AT&T did before it was broken up in 1982



Well if you want to be pedantic, the topic of the thread is "Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'".
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'greendream'

On 2/10/2019 7:44 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 10:18:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 15:38:45 -0700, rbowman wrote:

On 02/09/2019 08:35 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
The medical schools only let in so many people each year to be doctors
and nurses. I remember when the machines to 'blast' the kindey stones
first came out. They would not let the local hospital have one because
it would make the treatment cost come down due to competition.


It varies by the state but the nurse practitioners have been lobbying to
be allowed to practice independently across the board and that's meeting
resistance. I have a yearly wellness physical coming up and a NP
certainly could handle that. In fact, when my doctor was on maternity
leave, the NP did. Still, many states require that they are under the
supervision of a doctor.


I have a new "Doctor" and I have had 3 visits without ever even seeing
the guy. Two techs are all I have ever seen. For all I know this is a
weekend at Bernie's thing, he died a year ago and they are still
cashing his checks.
I have actually heard this is not unusual.
The other doctor who used to at least come in and look at you for a
minute is a "Concierge" now and you have to pay him to join his club.


That's what our doctor did. My husband (who really likes the guy and
who consumes what seems like a lot of medical services) is joining
the club. I'm finding a new doctor. I can't remember the last time
I had something that needed anything more than a Physician's Assistant.

Cindy Hamilton


We quit ours too when he went concierge. My wife seldom has problems and
thought it would be ridiculous to pay $1,600 per year with maybe just
needing a flu shot. We had him for years and really liked him but find
our new doctors are better. There is an area shortage of gp's because
of their low reimbursements and loss of hospital privileges and many are
going concierge. We now see a doctor working in the hospital system but
visit is often with PA's who can do many things as well as the doctor.

Many years ago when we started with the old doctor he was complaining
about not seeing me but having to write referrals for me. Where I
worked, we had a medical facility and staff on site that gave us
complete physical exams every year. I was young and did not need to see
my doctor.

Things have changed a lot over the years. The era of the lone gp
working out of his office with just a nurse is practically gone. With
all the big private insurance firms and government health care like
medicare, plus all the burden of government regulations, it takes a big
conglomerate to handle today's environment.
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 10:36:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 17:08:39 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:



They gave the PC business away to establish the x86 standard and pave
the way for their proprietary machine. Although most people seldom
ever saw a PS/2 except on TV, it was very successful for IBM in the
business world. The goal was to replace every dumb terminal with a
PS/2 and that was very successful.


You are operating under the delusion that big old IBM, which should be a
dumb monopoly like AT&T if I follow you, somehow could see the whole
future of the computer industry in 1981 when they took a flyer on a
PC when no one at the time could even figure out why anyone needed one
or what they would do with it.


IBM was already talking about the "distributed computing" model in the
mid 70s and the PC was the perfect platform for it.
IBM still envisioned PCs being connected to mainframes and that is why
their main thrust was at the business world.


Silly me, I thought all this time that IBM's main thrust was in the
business world because it's International Business Machines and the
business market was essentially their whole business for 100 years.




They gave away the x86
consumer business, just to establish the standard.


The actual history shows that IBM was as perplexed about the nascent
personal computer business and there was no grand scheme. And there was
no x86 business at that point, the PC was introduced not in the business
market, but the personal computing, home market.





There is no better
way to flood the market than to give the technology away for free.


Which IBM didn't do. They did encourage other companies to develop
software and hardware add-ons.



You also got PC DOS for free with your system. (Not MS DOS, PC DOS,
the one IBM owned)


Nothing unusual there, Apple and others were doing the same thing.
It's not giving it away for free, it's including it in the purchase
price. A PC would be fairly useless without an OS.



51xx PCs were totally off the shelf parts and the 5150 PC-1 was
shipped with full schematics and engineering documents.
The 3270 coax card and 5250 twinax cards were part of the original
PS/2 announcement, allowing them to immediately replace a dumb
terminal. They already had 3270 versions of the PC and PC/AT with an
identical keyboard so it was seamless for the operator.


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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 8:58:45 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 16:37:44 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 15:03:50 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 17:08:39 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-5,
wrote:


They gave the PC business away to establish the x86 standard and pave
the way for their proprietary machine. Although most people seldom
ever saw a PS/2 except on TV, it was very successful for IBM in the
business world. The goal was to replace every dumb terminal with a
PS/2 and that was very successful.

You are operating under the delusion that big old IBM, which should be a
dumb monopoly like AT&T if I follow you, somehow could see the whole
future of the computer industry in 1981 when they took a flyer on a
PC when no one at the time could even figure out why anyone needed one
or what they would do with it.

IBM was already talking about the "distributed
computing" model in the mid 70s

Yes and others were doing it too, particularly DEC.

and the PC was the perfect platform for it.

No it was not. It didn't have anything like the horsepower
then to do much of that. Useful for word processing and
spreadsheets etc but not for true distributed computing.

IBM still envisioned PCs being connected to mainframes

That's wrong too. Most PCs never were.
They were standalone computers.

and that is why their main thrust was at the business world.

It never was with the PC. That came later with
the PS/2 and still wasn't true with the stupid PCjr.


You can't keep ignoring the PCjr, it's the proof that
your claim about what IBM's intentions were with
the PC are just plain wrong. They were clearly
attempting to cover the entire market with their
products and failed dismally at the low end.

An expensive operation like IBM was never going
to make any money on something like the PCjr and
it was never about setting standards with it either.

The PC Jr was a joke as was the PS/1 and I doubt anyone really cared
much about it. That was at a time when IBM was throwing anything they
could at the wall and hoping it would stick. It was marketed by the
remnants of the typewriter division who knew their ass was grass.


You want it both ways. First, you claimed that IBM had some grand plan
with the PC at the time it was introduced. I said no, they were just
another entrant, as perplexed as any other company at the time as to what
the PC would evolve into. Now you say they were indeed throwing stuff
on the wall, which was similar to what I said.


They
also tried to sell a copier and a bunch of other bull**** that never
went anywhere. The whole division was sold for a pittance to Kodak.


They gave away the x86 consumer business,

Bull**** they did.

just to establish the standard.

That didn't happen either. And while they tried to do that with
the PS/2, they failed dismally because the industry ignored it.

There is no better way to flood the market
than to give the technology away for free.

They never flooded the market. And they realised their
mistake with including the circuit diagrams and bios
code with the PC and XT and didn't do it with the AT

You also got PC DOS for free with your system.
(Not MS DOS, PC DOS, the one IBM owned)

51xx PCs were totally off the shelf parts and the 5150 PC-1
was shipped with full schematics and engineering documents.

And the bios code listing too.

The 3270 coax card and 5250 twinax cards were part of the original
PS/2 announcement, allowing them to immediately replace a dumb
terminal. They already had 3270 versions of the PC and PC/AT with
an identical keyboard so it was seamless for the operator.

And few bothered to buy them.


I am not sure about what happened in the upside down
world south of the equator but we sold the **** out of
PCs being used as smart terminals here in the US.


**** all in fact compared with 3270s etc. The absolute
vast bulk of PCs, XTs and ATs were in fact used as
standalone computers used for word processing,
spreadsheets and later running stuff like POS software.


If they had a mainframe,


That right there is one big IF.



the PCs were networked to it most of the
time.
If they didn't have a mainframe they were not big enough for IBM to
give a **** about them.


Funny then that IBM introduced the PC in 1981 as a personal computer
for home use, not as a smart terminal or "distributed computing"
device for the business market.







In fact by the time that most small businesses were
computerised, **** all used any IBM PCs even in the USA.

In fact by the early 90s it was getting hard to find dumb
terminals in anything but the places with the simplest
applications with marginally trained workers.


Sure, but that's much later than the original PC.

Places like offices, insurance companies, hospitals and
such, they had gotten rid of their dumb terminals and
put in PCs by the time I retired in 96.


Yes, but they were not IBM machines.

They were even using PCs in Burger King
and Wendy's for the cash registers.


But hardly ever with an IBM machine.



BK used a regular PS/2 M/30 and Wendy's
had them in a custom cabinet but it was still
a M/30 system board, unaltered in any way.


And far more didn't use any IBM hardware at all.


It was the standard for corporate owned restaurants. Franchise owners
could run what they want but they still had to talk to the same
mainframes


Sure, the PC EVOLVED into that, but there is zero evidence that I've seen
that it was what IBM's grand plan was in 1981.



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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'



"Randull L. Stephenson" wrote in message
...
On 2/10/19 11:31 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Randull L. Stephenson wrote
Rod Speed wrote


Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.


If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically decimated
AT&T here. Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT&T only offers 6Mbps
Slowverse. Want TV from Slowverse? Here, nail this fugly dish up on
your roof.


What was being discussed was what innovation
AT&T did before it was broken up in 1982


Well if you want to be pedantic, the topic of the thread is "Pelosi calls
Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'".


Nope, this sub thread had moved on from that.

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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 08:13:08 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 9:21:55 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 05:26:49 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 6:21:56 AM UTC-5, Randull L. Stephenson wrote:
On 2/10/19 12:27 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.


If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically decimated AT&T here. Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT$T only offers 6Mbps Slowverse.
Want TV from Slowverse? Here, nail this fugly dish up on your roof.


Looks to me like the only innovations at American Telegraph are their deceptive marketing lies.

https://arstechnica.com/information-...-service-5g-e/


Did Comcast invent the transistor? You're confusing buying and deploying
equipment, being faster to deploy new gear, more willing to invest in
infrastructure, with research and innovation.



They didn't invent the transistor so Sony could make little radios you
could hold up to your ear. They were trying to get rid of the half
billion relays in their switching equipment.


Were you there? The phone system also had need for amplifiers, just like
a Sony radio. AT&T invested billions in all kinds of research, without
knowing what it would ultimately be used for. They won a Nobel prize for
trapping atoms with a laser, for example. That's pretty far away from
any immediate business need.


We were talking about innovation that made it's way to the customer.


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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'greendream'

On 2/10/19 1:13 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Randull L. Stephenson" wrote in message ...
On 2/10/19 11:31 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Randull L. Stephenson wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.

If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically decimated AT&T here.Â* Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT&T only offers 6Mbps Slowverse. Want TV from Slowverse?Â* Here, nail this fugly dish up on your roof.

What was being discussed was what innovation
AT&T did before it was broken up in 1982


Well if you want to be pedantic, the topic of the thread is "Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'".


Nope, this sub thread had moved on from that.



That's fine but as a courtesy to others, you need to change the Subject line.
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'greendream'

On 2/10/2019 12:43 PM, trader_4 wrote:


The actual history shows that IBM was as perplexed about the nascent
personal computer business and there was no grand scheme. And there was
no x86 business at that point, the PC was introduced not in the business
market, but the personal computing, home market.


Ken Olson, founder and CEO of DEC could not understand why anyone would
want a computer on their desk. The PC made no sense to him. Hopefully,
he tucked away enough money to live on or he'd be waiting tables now.
DEC had facilities all over MA in their prime days.
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'



"Roger Wilco" wrote in message
...
On 2/10/19 1:13 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Randull L. Stephenson" wrote in message
...
On 2/10/19 11:31 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Randull L. Stephenson wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.

If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically
decimated AT&T here. Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT&T only
offers 6Mbps Slowverse. Want TV from Slowverse? Here, nail this fugly
dish up on your roof.

What was being discussed was what innovation
AT&T did before it was broken up in 1982


Well if you want to be pedantic, the topic of the thread is "Pelosi
calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'".


Nope, this sub thread had moved on from that.



That's fine but as a courtesy to others, you need to change the Subject
line.


I dont agree that thats a good approach because with most usenet
clients, that doesnt allow readers to see thats happened. And most
agree with me, few do change the subject line for sub threads.



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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'greendream'

On 02/10/2019 07:21 AM, wrote:
They didn't invent the transistor so Sony could make little radios you
could hold up to your ear.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regency_TR-1

I can picture a couple of nerds at TI asking themselves what they could
do with those transistor things and one said let's build a little radio.
The major players in the radio business weren't interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Christensen

It may be urban legend but the story was Christensen tried to interest
his bosses at IBM in personal computers. Eventually a letter trickled
down from the Gods that said it was nice he had a hobby but PCs were a
fad that wasn't going anywhere. He framed the letter and hung it on his
office wall.

IBM has spawned a lot of things like DRAM, magnetic stripes, and SQL as
well as developing ideas like the ATM and bar codes that have become
universal. I don't know how much they profited from them or if they even
tried.

Sometimes they tried and eventually gave it away. Their VisualAge IDE
was written in SmallTalk and they even bought the company that provided
the SmallTalk compiler. I never used it and it wasn't very popular
because of the way the workspace was structured. It deviated too far
from what programmers were used to. Then they slowly drifted into Java,
with VisualAge morphing into Eclipse. They then handed Eclipse to the
Eclipse Foundation, which is supported by a consortium.

I grew up in upstate NY and IBM Poughkeepsie spun off a lot of small
businesses. It might have been part of the anti-trust paranoia but they
often would set up a supplier and hand the business off.

In the mid-90s IBM laid a lot of people off in the area and that had a
ripple effect. They're still dropping jobs. They're supposed to be
starting a quantum computing center but that's not going to bring back
the good times.


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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'greendream'

On 02/10/2019 10:18 AM, Randull L. Stephenson wrote:
Well if you want to be pedantic, the topic of the thread is "Pelosi
calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'".


Pedants tend to be very frustrated on Usenet. If you want curated
discussions try Twitter or Facebook.
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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 1:27:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 08:13:08 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 9:21:55 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 05:26:49 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 6:21:56 AM UTC-5, Randull L. Stephenson wrote:
On 2/10/19 12:27 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Nothing to do with corporate Kool Ade that AT&T did an immense
amount of innovation long before they were broken up. You dont
get Nobel Prizes for reducing the cost of running exchanges.


If you are using innovation as your metric, Comcast basically decimated AT&T here. Comcast offers gigabit fiber but AT$T only offers 6Mbps Slowverse.
Want TV from Slowverse? Here, nail this fugly dish up on your roof..


Looks to me like the only innovations at American Telegraph are their deceptive marketing lies.

https://arstechnica.com/information-...-service-5g-e/


Did Comcast invent the transistor? You're confusing buying and deploying
equipment, being faster to deploy new gear, more willing to invest in
infrastructure, with research and innovation.



They didn't invent the transistor so Sony could make little radios you
could hold up to your ear. They were trying to get rid of the half
billion relays in their switching equipment.


Were you there? The phone system also had need for amplifiers, just like
a Sony radio. AT&T invested billions in all kinds of research, without
knowing what it would ultimately be used for. They won a Nobel prize for
trapping atoms with a laser, for example. That's pretty far away from
any immediate business need.


We were talking about innovation that made it's way to the customer.


No, I said that despite being a monopoly, AT&T spent a fortune on research that advanced science and technology, including the invention of the transistor, which speaks for itself. It changed the world. And that most certainly also reached customers, not only at AT&T but everywhere around the world. You can find a transistor today in even the poorest, most backwoods places on the planet. You denied that AT&T's research amounted to anything, that they had any interest in innovation at all.


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Default Pelosi calls Ocasio-Cortez's 'new deal' climate plan a 'green dream'

On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 1:51:58 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/10/2019 12:43 PM, trader_4 wrote:


The actual history shows that IBM was as perplexed about the nascent
personal computer business and there was no grand scheme. And there was
no x86 business at that point, the PC was introduced not in the business
market, but the personal computing, home market.


Ken Olson, founder and CEO of DEC could not understand why anyone would
want a computer on their desk. The PC made no sense to him. Hopefully,
he tucked away enough money to live on or he'd be waiting tables now.
DEC had facilities all over MA in their prime days.


Ken Olsen and DEC are indeed an interesting case study. Olsen was working at the labs at MIT and realized the need for smaller computers that could be utilized in places like labs and factories, instead of mainframes. He created the minicomputer business, which IBM, DG, Burroughs, etc ignored. He got inside their time and product cycles, out maneuvered them, and built DEC into a Fortune 500 company. That was the 60s and 70s. DEC ruled the roost and appeared invincible. Then the PC came along and the same thing happened to DEC and Ken Olsen that he had done to the mainframe companies. DEC missed the PC, blew it, and it tore into their business. Compaq wound up buying them when they had already fallen badly and couldn't get back up. That was a mistake. But despite the humiliation, I'm sure Olsen had plenty of money and didn't suffer. He was one of those guys who wore off the rack suits, worked 80 hours a week, rarely took vacation, drove an ordinary car. Similar to guys like Andy Grove, Gordon Moore, Bob Noyce, and Warren Buffet.
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