No water in one of the upstairs bathrooms this morning. Thinking of
cutting a hole in the wall to try to figure out where the coldest
area is. In the basement I can see where the pipes go up. It is an
interior wall but quite close to the exterior wall. Any suggestions?

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 30 Jan 2019 09:42:38 -0800 (PST), Davej
wrote:

No water in one of the upstairs bathrooms this morning. Thinking of
cutting a hole in the wall to try to figure out where the coldest
area is. In the basement I can see where the pipes go up. It is an
interior wall but quite close to the exterior wall. Any suggestions?

You think your pipe is frozen?

How close is quite close to an exterior wall?

How cold is it in your house?

You seem to think the frozen spot is upstairs. Maybe it's downstairs.
How many holes will you make?

Both the hot and cold water won't run?

If you have other sinks, and I can tell you do, why not wait until
things warm up. Maybe you'll have water then, with no effort on your
part and no hole.

Davej wrote

No water in one of the upstairs bathrooms this morning. Thinking of
cutting a hole in the wall to try to figure out where the coldest area is.

Makes more sense to use a thermal imaging camera. Not that expensive now.

In the basement I can see where the pipes go up. It
is an interior wall but quite close to the exterior wall.

Any suggestions?

Has that happened before ? Have you lived there long ?

Davej posted for all of us...



No water in one of the upstairs bathrooms this morning. Thinking of
cutting a hole in the wall to try to figure out where the coldest
area is. In the basement I can see where the pipes go up. It is an
interior wall but quite close to the exterior wall. Any suggestions?

Thermal imaging camera

--
Tekkie

On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 1:17:35 PM UTC-6, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on 30 Jan 2019 09:42:38 -0800 (PST), Davej wrote:

No water in one of the upstairs bathrooms this morning. Thinking of
cutting a hole in the wall to try to figure out where the coldest
area is. In the basement I can see where the pipes go up. It is an
interior wall but quite close to the exterior wall. Any suggestions?

You think your pipe is frozen?

How close is quite close to an exterior wall?

How cold is it in your house?

You seem to think the frozen spot is upstairs. Maybe it's downstairs.
How many holes will you make?

Both the hot and cold water won't run?

If you have other sinks, and I can tell you do, why not wait until
things warm up. Maybe you'll have water then, with no effort on your
part and no hole.

Apparently two pipes are frozen 19 and 22 inches to the inside of the
exterior wall, or so it seems looking at the basement view. The pipes
run up in an interior wall which connects to the exterior wall near
the front door. The house thermostat was set to nighttime temps of
55F upstairs and 60F downstairs. I have two shutoff valves at the
points where the copper pipes head upward in the basement. I've only
lived here 1 1/2 years so this is the coldest I've seen it here. No
other faucets seem to be in trouble.

I think I can rent a fancy thermal camera at Home Depot, but what
would it really tell me?

My thought is that with a few inspection holes maybe I will discover
why I apparently have an insulation problem of some sort.

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 12:38:35 -0800 (PST), Davej
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 1:17:35 PM UTC-6, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on 30 Jan 2019 09:42:38 -0800 (PST), Davej wrote:

No water in one of the upstairs bathrooms this morning. Thinking of
cutting a hole in the wall to try to figure out where the coldest
area is. In the basement I can see where the pipes go up. It is an
interior wall but quite close to the exterior wall. Any suggestions?

You think your pipe is frozen?

How close is quite close to an exterior wall?

How cold is it in your house?

You seem to think the frozen spot is upstairs. Maybe it's downstairs.
How many holes will you make?

Both the hot and cold water won't run?

If you have other sinks, and I can tell you do, why not wait until
things warm up. Maybe you'll have water then, with no effort on your
part and no hole.

Apparently two pipes are frozen 19 and 22 inches to the inside of the
exterior wall, or so it seems looking at the basement view. The pipes
run up in an interior wall which connects to the exterior wall near
the front door. The house thermostat was set to nighttime temps of
55F upstairs and 60F downstairs. I have two shutoff valves at the
points where the copper pipes head upward in the basement. I've only
lived here 1 1/2 years so this is the coldest I've seen it here. No
other faucets seem to be in trouble.

I think I can rent a fancy thermal camera at Home Depot, but what
would it really tell me?

My thought is that with a few inspection holes maybe I will discover
why I apparently have an insulation problem of some sort.
Turn off the shutoff valves NOW (and leave the taps upstairs open)
and wait for the temperature to come up. With any luck the pipes won't
split. Regardless, if they will split that damage is already done.
Once the weater warms up stuff that outer section of wall with
insulation right out to the external wall and check for anything that
would allow cold air in. Block any holes

Clare Snyder writes:

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 12:38:35 -0800 (PST), Davej
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 1:17:35 PM UTC-6, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on 30 Jan 2019 09:42:38 -0800 (PST), Davej wrote:

No water in one of the upstairs bathrooms this morning. Thinking of
cutting a hole in the wall to try to figure out where the coldest
area is. In the basement I can see where the pipes go up. It is an
interior wall but quite close to the exterior wall. Any suggestions?

You think your pipe is frozen?

How close is quite close to an exterior wall?

How cold is it in your house?

You seem to think the frozen spot is upstairs. Maybe it's downstairs.
How many holes will you make?

Both the hot and cold water won't run?

If you have other sinks, and I can tell you do, why not wait until
things warm up. Maybe you'll have water then, with no effort on your
part and no hole.

Apparently two pipes are frozen 19 and 22 inches to the inside of the
exterior wall, or so it seems looking at the basement view. The pipes
run up in an interior wall which connects to the exterior wall near
the front door. The house thermostat was set to nighttime temps of
55F upstairs and 60F downstairs. I have two shutoff valves at the
points where the copper pipes head upward in the basement. I've only
lived here 1 1/2 years so this is the coldest I've seen it here. No
other faucets seem to be in trouble.

I think I can rent a fancy thermal camera at Home Depot, but what
would it really tell me?

My thought is that with a few inspection holes maybe I will discover
why I apparently have an insulation problem of some sort.

Turn off the shutoff valves NOW (and leave the taps upstairs open)
and wait for the temperature to come up. With any luck the pipes won't
split. Regardless, if they will split that damage is already done.
Once the weater warms up stuff that outer section of wall with
insulation right out to the external wall and check for anything that
would allow cold air in. Block any holes

That last advice helped me this year.
Last year hot and cold froze in a bathroom with inside walls.

Had me confused for a while, then I remembered the eaves that
led from an unheated garage to right under the bath room.
I turned on the exhaust fan in the bathroom underneath and
the pipes unfroze in minutes.

This summer, I crawled in there and first thing I noticed was that the
insulation had fallen away from a hole made to accommodate
the exhaust fan. Sprayed some foam to seal the opening and so far,
even with a few days of extreme cold, no frozen pipes.

I also had another exhaust fan let in rain this year.
Took a look at the fan vent and a couple of vans had gotten
wedged open.

--
Dan Espen

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 12:38:35 -0800 (PST), Davej wrote:

On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 1:17:35 PM UTC-6, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on 30 Jan 2019 09:42:38 -0800 (PST), Davej wrote:

No water in one of the upstairs bathrooms this morning. Thinking of
cutting a hole in the wall to try to figure out where the coldest
area is. In the basement I can see where the pipes go up. It is an
interior wall but quite close to the exterior wall. Any suggestions?

You think your pipe is frozen?

How close is quite close to an exterior wall?

How cold is it in your house?

You seem to think the frozen spot is upstairs. Maybe it's downstairs.
How many holes will you make?

Both the hot and cold water won't run?

If you have other sinks, and I can tell you do, why not wait until
things warm up. Maybe you'll have water then, with no effort on your
part and no hole.

Apparently two pipes are frozen 19 and 22 inches to the inside of the
exterior wall, or so it seems looking at the basement view. The pipes
run up in an interior wall which connects to the exterior wall near
the front door. The house thermostat was set to nighttime temps of
55F upstairs and 60F downstairs. I have two shutoff valves at the
points where the copper pipes head upward in the basement. I've only
lived here 1 1/2 years so this is the coldest I've seen it here. No
other faucets seem to be in trouble.

I think I can rent a fancy thermal camera at Home Depot, but what
would it really tell me?

My thought is that with a few inspection holes maybe I will discover
why I apparently have an insulation problem of some sort.

I suggest you get some heat to those pipes ASAP. An electric heater near where the pipes
enter the basement ceiling would be a start. You don't want them bursting.

On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 12:42:42 PM UTC-5, Davej wrote:
No water in one of the upstairs bathrooms this morning. Thinking of
cutting a hole in the wall to try to figure out where the coldest
area is. In the basement I can see where the pipes go up. It is an
interior wall but quite close to the exterior wall. Any suggestions?

Depending on how desperate you are and how much you're willing to spend,
you can call local welders. They can hook up an arc welding rig to pump
current through the pipes by attaching a cable to each end where accessible,
which slowly warm the pipes. That is if they are metal. I guess you could
DIY, but that would require buying some arc welding gear.

"Davej" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 1:17:35 PM UTC-6, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on 30 Jan 2019 09:42:38 -0800 (PST), Davej wrote:

No water in one of the upstairs bathrooms this morning. Thinking of
cutting a hole in the wall to try to figure out where the coldest
area is. In the basement I can see where the pipes go up. It is an
interior wall but quite close to the exterior wall. Any suggestions?

You think your pipe is frozen?

How close is quite close to an exterior wall?

How cold is it in your house?

You seem to think the frozen spot is upstairs. Maybe it's downstairs.
How many holes will you make?

Both the hot and cold water won't run?

If you have other sinks, and I can tell you do, why not wait until
things warm up. Maybe you'll have water then, with no effort on your
part and no hole.

Apparently two pipes are frozen 19 and 22 inches to the inside of the
exterior wall, or so it seems looking at the basement view. The pipes
run up in an interior wall which connects to the exterior wall near
the front door. The house thermostat was set to nighttime temps of
55F upstairs and 60F downstairs. I have two shutoff valves at the
points where the copper pipes head upward in the basement. I've only
lived here 1 1/2 years so this is the coldest I've seen it here. No
other faucets seem to be in trouble.

I think I can rent a fancy thermal camera at Home Depot, but what
would it really tell me?

Where the coldest area is without any need to repair the wall afterwards.

My thought is that with a few inspection holes maybe I will discover
why I apparently have an insulation problem of some sort.

And that's what a terminal camera will tell you without damaging the wall.

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 16:13:43 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

and check for anything that
would allow cold air in. Block any holes

+ 2

Once had a garage, upstate NY. Wife called me at work. The exposed
copper pipe, frozen, swelled up, burst and split a 5/8" gash in the
pipe. It was my first year in the house. I think the wind chill was
~-50° F. Snow blowing sideways and wind howling. I moved South after
a year.

On 2019-01-30 4:31 p.m., Oren wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 16:13:43 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

and check for anything that
would allow cold air in. Block any holes

+ 2

Once had a garage, upstate NY. Wife called me at work. The exposed
copper pipe, frozen, swelled up, burst and split a 5/8" gash in the
pipe. It was my first year in the house. I think the wind chill was
~-50° F. Snow blowing sideways and wind howling. I moved South after
a year.

keep a trickle of hot water running or insulate the pipes

I suggest you get some heat to those pipes ASAP. An electric heater near where the pipes
enter the basement ceiling would be a start. You don't want them bursting.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...es-garage.html




--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 1/30/2019 3:38 PM, Davej wrote:
On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 1:17:35 PM UTC-6, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on 30 Jan 2019 09:42:38 -0800 (PST), Davej wrote:

No water in one of the upstairs bathrooms this morning. Thinking of
cutting a hole in the wall to try to figure out where the coldest
area is. In the basement I can see where the pipes go up. It is an
interior wall but quite close to the exterior wall. Any suggestions?

You think your pipe is frozen?

How close is quite close to an exterior wall?

How cold is it in your house?

You seem to think the frozen spot is upstairs. Maybe it's downstairs.
How many holes will you make?

Both the hot and cold water won't run?

If you have other sinks, and I can tell you do, why not wait until
things warm up. Maybe you'll have water then, with no effort on your
part and no hole.

Apparently two pipes are frozen 19 and 22 inches to the inside of the
exterior wall, or so it seems looking at the basement view. The pipes
run up in an interior wall which connects to the exterior wall near
the front door. The house thermostat was set to nighttime temps of
55F upstairs and 60F downstairs. I have two shutoff valves at the
points where the copper pipes head upward in the basement. I've only
lived here 1 1/2 years so this is the coldest I've seen it here. No
other faucets seem to be in trouble.

I think I can rent a fancy thermal camera at Home Depot, but what
would it really tell me?

My thought is that with a few inspection holes maybe I will discover
why I apparently have an insulation problem of some sort.


This temperature sensor may work for you, surprised it is so cheep:

https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Lase...00562779&psc=1

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 19:03:46 -0500, wrote:



I suggest you get some heat to those pipes ASAP. An electric heater near where the pipes
enter the basement ceiling would be a start. You don't want them bursting.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...es-garage.html




--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

iI will repeat. OPEN THE TAPS. If the pipes are going to split but
have not yet, opening the taps will prevent splitting in most cases.

Generally the pipe does not split where it is frozen - it splits
downstream because the water is pressurized beyond the capacity of the
pipe. The water is at it's "largest" just before it freezes. The ice
blocks the pipe, the water on both sides expands. On the "in" side it
"backs up" to the supply - on the "out" side it pressurizes against
the closed faucet and splits the pipe. You don't really know it's
split until it thaws and line pressure forces copious amounts of water
out of the split. Opening the tap prevents the pressure from building
and also reduces the flow out of the split when the plug thaws and you
turn the water back on.

Leaving a tap running even a WEE bit can prevent freezing, but also
prevent splitting if it does freeze.

And yes -0 it's -24C with a windchill of -34-ish up here in Ontario
right now - - -

On 01/30/2019 06:31 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
Leaving a tap running even a WEE bit can prevent freezing, but also
prevent splitting if it does freeze.

I've got one problem area when the temps get down around 0 F. The hot
and cold lines are close together so I leave the hot tap open. Many
people will say leaving a tap drip will not prevent freezing but it this
case the hot water line adds heat.

And yes -0 it's -24C with a windchill of -34-ish up here in Ontario
right now - - -


... with Windsor and Niagara much colder than Ottawa !
almost never seen.
Wonder how this will affect the fruit growers & winery grapes ?
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 21:42:21 -0500, wrote:



And yes -0 it's -24C with a windchill of -34-ish up here in Ontario
right now - - -


.. with Windsor and Niagara much colder than Ottawa !
almost never seen.
Wonder how this will affect the fruit growers & winery grapes ?
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---
And cplder in Chicago than at the north pole too - - -

On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 8:01:12 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Clare Snyder wrote:
I will repeat. OPEN THE TAPS. If the pipes are going to split but
have not yet, opening the taps will prevent splitting in most cases.

+1
if you are going to be away from the house when it warms up, its
a good idea to shut OFF the supply valve to that section and open
the sink tap.

I have now cut a roughly 3ft x 4ft hole in the ceiling above my
front door. The water pipes do stay well away from the exterior
wall (19"). The primary problem seems to be that the bats of pink
insulation that were shoved in there 19 years ago have shifted
somewhat and are out of position, however another discovery is
that the brick facade gap is also right in there. Apparently
there is a slight overhang of the upper floor right there, so the
upper wall is out farther, and I can see the top of the bricks.
I'm not sure how brick facade is normally vented. I guess it needs
to be able to vent and I don't mind that, however I think maybe it
ought to be topped with aluminum screen or something as a vermin
trap when it will actually lead into the house? I don't see any
damaged water pipe yet. I think I will also cut another hole
upstairs in the bathroom wall.

On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 7:10:19 PM UTC-5, Davej wrote:
On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 8:01:12 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Clare Snyder wrote:
I will repeat. OPEN THE TAPS. If the pipes are going to split but
have not yet, opening the taps will prevent splitting in most cases.

+1
if you are going to be away from the house when it warms up, its
a good idea to shut OFF the supply valve to that section and open
the sink tap.

I have now cut a roughly 3ft x 4ft hole in the ceiling above my
front door. The water pipes do stay well away from the exterior
wall (19"). The primary problem seems to be that the bats of pink
insulation that were shoved in there 19 years ago have shifted
somewhat and are out of position, however another discovery is
that the brick facade gap is also right in there. Apparently
there is a slight overhang of the upper floor right there, so the
upper wall is out farther, and I can see the top of the bricks.
I'm not sure how brick facade is normally vented. I guess it needs
to be able to vent and I don't mind that, however I think maybe it
ought to be topped with aluminum screen or something as a vermin
trap when it will actually lead into the house? I don't see any
damaged water pipe yet. I think I will also cut another hole
upstairs in the bathroom wall.

I would have waited for Spring.

On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 8:27:06 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 7:10:19 PM UTC-5, Davej wrote:

I have now cut a roughly 3ft x 4ft hole in the ceiling above my
front door. The water pipes do stay well away from the exterior
wall (19"). The primary problem seems to be that the bats of pink
insulation that were shoved in there 19 years ago have shifted
somewhat and are out of position, however another discovery is
that the brick facade gap is also right in there. Apparently
there is a slight overhang of the upper floor right there, so the
upper wall is out farther, and I can see the top of the bricks.
I'm not sure how brick facade is normally vented. I guess it needs
to be able to vent and I don't mind that, however I think maybe it
ought to be topped with aluminum screen or something as a vermin
trap when it will actually lead into the house? I don't see any
damaged water pipe yet. I think I will also cut another hole
upstairs in the bathroom wall.

I would have waited for Spring.

More bug activity then. As it was I had a little spider jump out and
make a run for it. Doing it now also lets me know if the pipes are
cracked and perhaps leaking into the cellulose wall insulation.

On Friday, February 1, 2019 at 11:10:38 AM UTC-5, Davej wrote:
On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 8:27:06 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 7:10:19 PM UTC-5, Davej wrote:

I have now cut a roughly 3ft x 4ft hole in the ceiling above my
front door. The water pipes do stay well away from the exterior
wall (19"). The primary problem seems to be that the bats of pink
insulation that were shoved in there 19 years ago have shifted
somewhat and are out of position, however another discovery is
that the brick facade gap is also right in there. Apparently
there is a slight overhang of the upper floor right there, so the
upper wall is out farther, and I can see the top of the bricks.
I'm not sure how brick facade is normally vented. I guess it needs
to be able to vent and I don't mind that, however I think maybe it
ought to be topped with aluminum screen or something as a vermin
trap when it will actually lead into the house? I don't see any
damaged water pipe yet. I think I will also cut another hole
upstairs in the bathroom wall.

I would have waited for Spring.

More bug activity then. As it was I had a little spider jump out and
make a run for it. Doing it now also lets me know if the pipes are
cracked and perhaps leaking into the cellulose wall insulation.

Yes, I know, I was just joking, as in just ignore it and wait for it
to thaw. But sounds like the builder hosed this up, left an open air
passage from outside to the attic maybe?, that runs past this pipe.
So many of these things are just terminally stupid, but they still do it.
You'd think people in the construction trade would spot this in the process
and correct it.

On Friday, February 1, 2019 at 12:22:03 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, February 1, 2019 at 11:10:38 AM UTC-5, Davej wrote:
On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 8:27:06 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 7:10:19 PM UTC-5, Davej wrote:

I have now cut a roughly 3ft x 4ft hole in the ceiling above my
front door. The water pipes do stay well away from the exterior
wall (19"). The primary problem seems to be that the bats of pink
insulation that were shoved in there 19 years ago have shifted
somewhat and are out of position, however another discovery is
that the brick facade gap is also right in there. Apparently
there is a slight overhang of the upper floor right there, so the
upper wall is out farther, and I can see the top of the bricks.
I'm not sure how brick facade is normally vented. I guess it needs
to be able to vent and I don't mind that, however I think maybe it
ought to be topped with aluminum screen or something as a vermin
trap when it will actually lead into the house? I don't see any
damaged water pipe yet. I think I will also cut another hole
upstairs in the bathroom wall.

I would have waited for Spring.

More bug activity then. As it was I had a little spider jump out and
make a run for it. Doing it now also lets me know if the pipes are
cracked and perhaps leaking into the cellulose wall insulation.

Yes, I know, I was just joking, as in just ignore it and wait for it
to thaw. But sounds like the builder hosed this up, left an open air
passage from outside to the attic maybe?, that runs past this pipe.
So many of these things are just terminally stupid, but they still do it.
You'd think people in the construction trade would spot this in the process
and correct it.

If you have access to the pipe, you do NOT want to just wrap them up in insulation.
You want to put the insulation between the pipes and the cold side but leave the pipes exposed to the warm side.

Mark