I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement
3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

On 10/16/18 8:07 PM, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement 3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

Tires.
Body work?
Lights.

On 17/10/18 12:07 pm, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement 3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

You have missed the first and most important requirement, a *workshop
manual*, even a Haynes. Actually, a Haynes manual is all you're likely
to be able to get hold of these days as a lot of the factory manuals
come on CD and/or subscription.

An example, a friend decided to service his own car. religiously did all
the common stuff, oil, filters, flushes, etc. One day the timing belt
snapped. Had he changed the belt according to the service schedule book?
What book was the response. The obvious answer then was, no, not
according to the factory schedule. And thereby hangs a cautionary tale.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 17/10/18 12:20 pm, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/16/18 8:07 PM, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a
list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement 3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

Â*Â*Â*Â* Tires.
Â*Â*Â*Â* Body work?
Â*Â*Â* Lights.

0. Purchase manual and *study it* before touching *anything*.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 10/16/18 8:30 PM, Xeno wrote:
On 17/10/18 12:07 pm, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a
list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement 3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

You have missed the first and most important requirement, a *workshop
manual*, even a Haynes. Actually, a Haynes manual is all you're likely
to be able to get hold of these days as a lot of the factory manuals
come on CD and/or subscription.

And along those lines, YouTube. There are quite a few guys showing
"How to .............................." on YouTube. Some of the
repair guides are pretty good.
And they're free.

Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement 3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

Your list is a good as any.
IMO, most people could not do any of those due to a lack of knowledge, skill,
time, tools, desire, or a place to work.

On 17/10/18 12:37 pm, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/16/18 8:30 PM, Xeno wrote:
On 17/10/18 12:07 pm, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a
list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car,
starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement 3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

You have missed the first and most important requirement, a *workshop
manual*, even a Haynes. Actually, a Haynes manual is all you're likely
to be able to get hold of these days as a lot of the factory manuals
come on CD and/or subscription.

Â*Â*Â*Â* And along those lines,Â* YouTube.Â*Â* There are quite a few guys showing
"How to .............................."Â* on YouTube.Â*Â* Some of the
repair guides are pretty good.
And they're free.

Yes, agreed, but some of those are potential disasters. You need to be
able to sort the wheat from the chaff with those videos and I'm not sure
a tyro could adequately do that.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 17/10/18 12:46 pm, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a
list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement 3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

Your list is a good as any.
IMO, most people could not do any of those due to a lack of knowledge,
skill,
time, tools, desire, or a place to work.

True that!

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 10/16/2018 9:20 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tires.

†‘†‘†‘
This! Spare tire air pressure check.
Mine was flat when I needed it despite multiple routine service checks by the ****ing dealership's award-winning service department.
The ****ers always ticked the box on the service sheet but no air ever made it into the spare tire.Â* Apparently they're too ****ing lazy to open the trunk.

Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a
list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement 3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

Not a bad list, but I'm not sure how you got the pairings. #6 combines
brakes and struts. They both require taking off a wheel, but are
usually not done together.

Clutch and engine replacement are borderline home repair. I know a few
people that can do it, but very few.

I see no mention of spark plugs.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 20:20:51 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 10/16/18 8:07 PM, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement 3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

Tires.
Body work?
Lights.
You can do ANYTHING at home if you know what you are doing, but most
people should not do anything more than oil changes and tire
rotation(if that)
If you want to do more MAKE SURE you learn how to do things PROPERLY
and SAFELY.

You are working with a "large caliber loaded weapon"

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 12:50:20 +1100, Xeno
wrote:

On 17/10/18 12:37 pm, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/16/18 8:30 PM, Xeno wrote:
On 17/10/18 12:07 pm, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a
list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car,
starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement 3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

You have missed the first and most important requirement, a *workshop
manual*, even a Haynes. Actually, a Haynes manual is all you're likely
to be able to get hold of these days as a lot of the factory manuals
come on CD and/or subscription.

**** And along those lines,* YouTube.** There are quite a few guys showing
"How to .............................."* on YouTube.** Some of the
repair guides are pretty good.
And they're free.

Yes, agreed, but some of those are potential disasters. You need to be
able to sort the wheat from the chaff with those videos and I'm not sure
a tyro could adequately do that.
The problem with the internet is it's like sorting fly**** from
pepper

Ed Pawlowski

I see no mention of spark plugs.

I forgot all about spark plugs!
Even though they last 100K miles, they need to be replaced.

I think I'll remove the struts because someone said that struts and brakes
don't go together (although don't struts need to be replaced as much as
spark plugs do?).

I'll definitely add spark plugs to a generic all-purpoe "tune up" even
though a "tune up" doesn't seem to exist as a "thing" any more.

That "tune up" will include the filters and spark plugs and wipers and
anything "rubbery" like hoses. With that tune up can be the simple stuff
with putting air in tires and topping off fluids.

Would that work better?

On 10/16/2018 11:22 PM, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
Ed Pawlowski
I see no mention of spark plugs.

I forgot all about spark plugs!
Even though they last 100K miles, they need to be replaced.

I think I'll remove the struts because someone said that struts and brakes
don't go together (although don't struts need to be replaced as much as
spark plugs do?).

I'll definitely add spark plugs to a generic all-purpoe "tune up" even
though a "tune up" doesn't seem to exist as a "thing" any more.
That "tune up" will include the filters and spark plugs and wipers and
anything "rubbery" like hoses. With that tune up can be the simple stuff
with putting air in tires and topping off fluids.

Would that work better?

That helps.

Tune up used to mean plugs, points, set the timing. That was done every
10,000 miles.
You may want to look at the owners manual of just about any car for
maintenance intervals.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 05:22:03 +0200, Drago Giambattista Esposito
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski

I see no mention of spark plugs.

I forgot all about spark plugs!
Even though they last 100K miles, they need to be replaced.

I think I'll remove the struts because someone said that struts and brakes
don't go together (although don't struts need to be replaced as much as
spark plugs do?).

I'll definitely add spark plugs to a generic all-purpoe "tune up" even
though a "tune up" doesn't seem to exist as a "thing" any more.

That "tune up" will include the filters and spark plugs and wipers and
anything "rubbery" like hoses. With that tune up can be the simple stuff
with putting air in tires and topping off fluids.

Would that work better?
As long as it's not a 5.4 Ford Triton.

Guaranteed a do-it-yourself plug change by an amateur on one of those
will get REAL expensive.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 00:10:23 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 05:22:03 +0200, Drago Giambattista Esposito
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski

I see no mention of spark plugs.

I forgot all about spark plugs!
Even though they last 100K miles, they need to be replaced.

I think I'll remove the struts because someone said that struts and brakes
don't go together (although don't struts need to be replaced as much as
spark plugs do?).

I'll definitely add spark plugs to a generic all-purpoe "tune up" even
though a "tune up" doesn't seem to exist as a "thing" any more.

That "tune up" will include the filters and spark plugs and wipers and
anything "rubbery" like hoses. With that tune up can be the simple stuff
with putting air in tires and topping off fluids.

Would that work better?
As long as it's not a 5.4 Ford Triton.

Guaranteed a do-it-yourself plug change by an amateur on one of those
will get REAL expensive.

Try to put an alternator in a new Lincoln.
I gave up pretty fast and took it to the dealer ($800)
That did include recharging the A/C because you have to remove the
compressor.

Try a timing belt on a 97 Prelude. The first step in the shop manual
is "remove engine". In real life the dealer just takes the motor
mounts loose and tilts it up a little. I couldn't even get the
balancer nut loose with a 1/2" impact wrench. I even went on the Honda
repair BB to be sure it wasn't left hand thread. A breaker bar with a
pipe on it was no help either.

On 17/10/18 2:22 pm, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
Ed Pawlowski
I see no mention of spark plugs.

I forgot all about spark plugs!
Even though they last 100K miles, they need to be replaced.

I think I'll remove the struts because someone said that struts and brakes
don't go together (although don't struts need to be replaced as much as
spark plugs do?).

Spark plugs are a scheduled service item. You could lump that in number
one or in whatever number you assign to a tune up.

Struts are only changed when they leak or their damping becomes
ineffective. That will depend a lot on the roads travelled.

I'll definitely add spark plugs to a generic all-purpoe "tune up" even
though a "tune up" doesn't seem to exist as a "thing" any more.

Just like greasing is no longer part of scheduled servicing on *cars*,
though it still exists on 4x4s, trucks and earthmoving equipment.

Some driveshafts may have a grease nipple on the universal joint that
has the least amount of angular movement on 2 piece driveshafts. There
is a reason for this.

That "tune up" will include the filters and spark plugs and wipers and
anything "rubbery" like hoses.

During scheduled servicing, perishable items like wiper blades, rubber
hoses, lights, even the POST lamps on the dash at key on, should be
inspected. See below for further explanation.

With that tune up can be the simple stuff with putting air in tires and topping off fluids.

Would that work better?

No. Air in tyres, fluid top ups, wiper blade inspection, etc. all come
under periodic maintenance servicing and should be included with item 1,
oil and filter changes, as should the air and cabin filter. Could even
include a brake adjustment if the vehicle is not fitted with self
adjusters. Should also include fluid flushing - coolant, brake fluid,
auto trans, power steering. Not to forget, there may well be a filter in
the power steering that requires regular replacement.

I suggest you look at the service schedule for your vehicle. It will
list the scheduled maintenance items and the scheduled period. These may
be termed A, B and C services depending on the time interval, A being
the most frequent, C being the least frequent.


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Try a timing belt on a 97 Prelude.

A timing belt or chain tensioners & plastic guides is another common
maintenance task I forgot to add.

I don't think the timing belt/chain would go with the rest of the belts.

The idea of separating out "scheduled items" from "broken items" is a good
one.

I might expand the list to a dozen even though we're supposed to keep it at
10. I think the main reason for the list is to make us think anyway, as
there is no grade or test - it's just something we're supposed to think
about seriously.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 15:45:02 +0200, Drago Giambattista Esposito
wrote:

I don't think the timing belt/chain would go with the rest of the belts.

The idea of separating out "scheduled items" from "broken items" is a good
one.

On most new engines you certainly don't want to wait until the timing
belt breaks to replace it. That is "take off the tags and leave it
where it broke" time.
I know back in the olden days in your Pinto or Sunbird a broken belt
was just a tow and a 3 hour fix, On a high performance engine, it is a
new engine or a massive rebuild.

Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement
3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

On a vehicle made prior to 2000 most of these can be done by a DIYer.
However on newer vehicles there are quite a few that you need special
tools and a good bi-directional scan tool to do. Most DIY folks won't
have those.

For instance - Batteries on many newer vehicles need to have the new
battery information entered into the vehicles data so the charging
system will work.
Got an electronic parking brake? You may need a scan tool to retract the
calipers to be able to change the pads.

This is especially true on Euro vehicles as they keep adding more
electronics.

Even something as simple as changing the spark plugs can cause headaches
if you need to remove the intake manifold or deal with things like the
plugs in a Ford Triton engine.

The first thing in any of these is going to be finding the correct
service information.

--
Steve W.

On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 12:38:22 PM UTC-4, Steve W. wrote:
Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement
3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?

On a vehicle made prior to 2000 most of these can be done by a DIYer.
However on newer vehicles there are quite a few that you need special
tools and a good bi-directional scan tool to do. Most DIY folks won't
have those.

For instance - Batteries on many newer vehicles need to have the new
battery information entered into the vehicles data so the charging
system will work.

I know BMW is doing this. Are others out to scam their buyers too?
That's all I can see it doing. They are forcing you back to the dealer
to buy a battery for $350 instead of $100 at the auto parts store.





Got an electronic parking brake? You may need a scan tool to retract the
calipers to be able to change the pads.

This is especially true on Euro vehicles as they keep adding more
electronics.

Even something as simple as changing the spark plugs can cause headaches
if you need to remove the intake manifold or deal with things like the
plugs in a Ford Triton engine.

The first thing in any of these is going to be finding the correct
service information.

--
Steve W.

On 10/17/2018 9:45 AM, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:

Try a timing belt on a 97 Prelude.

A timing belt or chain tensioners & plastic guides is another common
maintenance task I forgot to add.

I don't think the timing belt/chain would go with the rest of the belts.

The idea of separating out "scheduled items" from "broken items" is a good
one.

I might expand the list to a dozen even though we're supposed to keep it at
10. I think the main reason for the list is to make us think anyway, as
there is no grade or test - it's just something we're supposed to think
about seriously.

You can make #1 the oil change as it is usually fairly simple.

#2 should be "trade in before warranty is up so the dealer will do all
the work"

Getting tough to do simple things on cars the way the engine comparment
is crammed.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 03:07:35 +0200, Drago Giambattista Esposito
wrote:

I'm taking a night class on auto maintenance in adult school.
There is no grade and no tests. Just learning. And fun.

The teacher asked today, the first class, for us to bring next week a list
of the 10 things that people can do at home to repair their car, starting
with number 1 being an oil change and number 10 being an engine
replacement.

Can I run by you my first list?

1. Oil & filter Change
10. Engine replacement

2. Air & cabin air filter replacement
3. Flush & replace all fluids
4. Belt & tensioner replacement
5. Alternator & battery replacement
6. Brakes & struts overhauled
7. Cooling system overhaul
8. Starter replacement
9. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement

How does that list look as a first pass?


For me, keep the list simple. Stuff you would check or have done
before a road trip.

Simple DIY @ home is not opening the engine. Is the class on basics or
cars with computers... I'd stay simple making the list, myself.

What can I do with the resources I have on hand!

Ed Pawlowski

You can make #1 the oil change as it is usually fairly simple.

#2 should be "trade in before warranty is up so the dealer will do all
the work"

Getting tough to do simple things on cars the way the engine comparment
is crammed.

The teacher said a list of fallacies on the first day where that was on the
list (in different words). He said it's easier now than it's ever been.

Even though I couldn't keep it at 10, how's this dirty dozen list looking?

1. Oil & filter change
2. Battery replacement (standard battery setup)
3. Periodic scheduled maintenance (sometimes called a scheduled tune up)
(filters, spark plugs, wipers, hoses, pcv, fluids, tires)
4. Belt & belt tensioner replacement
5. Brake overhaul (rotors, drums, pads, shoes)
6. Cooling system overhaul (radiator, waterpump, thermostat, hoses)
7. Alternator replacement
8. Shock absorber or strut replacement
9. Starter replacement
10. Engine belt, chain guide, or engine chain replacement
11. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement
12. Remove & replace engine

It's hard to put in an easy-to-hard order, but how's that looking?

Oren

For me, keep the list simple. Stuff you would check or have done
before a road trip.

Simple DIY @ home is not opening the engine. Is the class on basics or
cars with computers... I'd stay simple making the list, myself.

What can I do with the resources I have on hand!

The first lecture was all about the common fallacies of car repair.

His very first question on the board was "Why isn't your wife here?"
Then he asked everyone in the class that question, and we said why.
(Mine has never touched anything dirty or greasy in her life.)

As he wrote down the answers, an assistant (his kid?) passed out a sheet of
paper which had every one of the reasons we each said, already on it.

He said they're universal whenever someone doesn't want to do any job.

For tools, he said at the price of repairs now the tools always pay for
themselves, often on the first use depending on the tools & tasks.

He said learning is easier now than it ever was before, given the Internet.

He told us that anyone who tells us otherwise just doesn't like doing it
which he said was ok but for us to simply recognize it as an excuse.

I couldn't keep the homework list at 10 given the input.
How does this look, in a general order of easy to hard?

1. Oil & filter change
2. Battery replacement (standard battery setup)
3. Periodic scheduled maintenance (sometimes called a scheduled tune up)
(filters, spark plugs, wipers, hoses, pcv, fluids, tires)
4. Belt & belt tensioner replacement
5. Brake overhaul (rotors, drums, pads, shoes)
6. Cooling system overhaul (radiator, waterpump, thermostat, hoses)
7. Alternator replacement
8. Shock absorber or strut replacement
9. Starter replacement
10. Engine belt, chain guide, or engine chain replacement
11. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement
12. Remove & replace engine

On 10/17/2018 4:20 PM, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
Ed Pawlowski
You can make #1 the oil change as it is usually fairly simple.

#2 should be "trade in before warranty is up so the dealer will do all
the work"

Getting tough to do simple things on cars the way the engine
comparment is crammed.

The teacher said a list of fallacies on the first day where that was on the
list (in different words). He said it's easier now than it's ever been.

Even though I couldn't keep it at 10, how's this dirty dozen list looking?

1. Oil & filter change
2. Battery replacement (standard battery setup)
3. Periodic scheduled maintenance (sometimes called a scheduled tune up)
Â* (filters, spark plugs, wipers, hoses, pcv, fluids, tires) 4. Belt &
belt tensioner replacement
5. Brake overhaul (rotors, drums, pads, shoes)
6. Cooling system overhaul (radiator, waterpump, thermostat, hoses)
7. Alternator replacement
8. Shock absorber or strut replacement
9. Starter replacement
10. Engine belt, chain guide, or engine chain replacement
11. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement
12. Remove & replace engine

It's hard to put in an easy-to-hard order, but how's that looking?

Mostly far beyond owner...

I don't know what the teacher's exact quote was, but if the intent was
that repair is easier than ever, I'd strongly disagree--it may be that
many what used to be common need for repair has disappeared with newer
technology and better-built (in general) vehicles, but doing _anything_
almost is much more difficult than years ago simply owing to lack of
access if nothing else.

One trivial example -- the battery in the Chrysler 300M (along w/ a
bunch of other MoPar vehicles) was in the bottom of the RF fender well
underneath other immovable stuff. There was an access panel inside the
fender well, but to get to the battery even for routine maintenance
required removing the RF wheel. In the Buicks it's either under the
rear seat (Lucerne, other passenger vehicles) or in a box under a panel
in the rear floor (Enclave). Again, both make for routine maintenance
"ain't happening".

Even light bulbs often take an engineering degree to figure out just
what pieces parts are necessary to remove the whole taillight assembly
instead of just being able to remove a lens cover w/ a screwdriver and
replace a bulb.

I'd give a starter list about like

1. Windshield wiper replace/washer fluid refill
2. Cabin and engine air filters
3. Lights/bulbs...
4. Other fluid levels (oil/tranny, brake)
5. Battery (presuming conventional)
6. Oil change/filter
7. Unibelt replacement

Beyond that, on anything I've seen within last 10 years, you're starting
to talk pretty serious access issues for the average owner...

I've said for ages if they would _just_ put 4-corner independent
suspension, disk brakes and A/C on a '63 Chevy, w/ a modern 3.8L, I'd be
more than happy.

--

On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 5:29:08 PM UTC-4, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
Oren

For me, keep the list simple. Stuff you would check or have done
before a road trip.

Simple DIY @ home is not opening the engine. Is the class on basics or
cars with computers... I'd stay simple making the list, myself.

What can I do with the resources I have on hand!

The first lecture was all about the common fallacies of car repair.

His very first question on the board was "Why isn't your wife here?"
Then he asked everyone in the class that question, and we said why.
(Mine has never touched anything dirty or greasy in her life.)

As he wrote down the answers, an assistant (his kid?) passed out a sheet of
paper which had every one of the reasons we each said, already on it.

He said they're universal whenever someone doesn't want to do any job.

For tools, he said at the price of repairs now the tools always pay for
themselves, often on the first use depending on the tools & tasks.

I agree, that's generally true. Many jobs that would be $500 at the dealer,
you can DIY for $50 or $100 in parts. And then there are the jobs avoided
because when you know what's really wrong, what really needs fixing vs
what may be BS the dealer is telling you, that could save thousands.




He said learning is easier now than it ever was before, given the Internet.

I agree with that. A service manual for $75 and all the resources on the
internet, especially videos makes it easier than before. A classic example
is pulling a door panel to fix a window regulator or door latch problem.
Spending fifteen minutes on the internet, watch a video of someone actually
doing it and you know where all the screws are, what size driver you need,
what holds it on, what order you need to take stuff off, etc.

Also, to do many repairs, it can be a big time saver today if you have
diagnostic tools similar to what the dealer has. I have that for the BMW
and I can read out all the modules, engine, HVAC, Lighting, ABS, Airbags,
etc. And read the status of the various components, switches, exercise
them, send them a command to move or turn on, etc. Without that, you're
at a big disadvantage.




He told us that anyone who tells us otherwise just doesn't like doing it
which he said was ok but for us to simply recognize it as an excuse.

On the other hand, there is truth to the fact that what it takes to do
many of the repairs today is more involved than it was decades ago.
Old cars didn't have all the extra stuff under the hood that modern cars
do, space was not at a premium, so there was usually a lot of room between
components, you didn't need to take X and Y off to get to Z, etc.
As an example, if the oil pan gasket leaked in an older car, usually
it was no big deal, you could access it easily, it was right there.
Now you may have a big stiffening plate that has to come off and then
the engine mounts have to be loosened and the engine lifted in order to
do the job. That's about an order of magnitude more work.




I couldn't keep the homework list at 10 given the input.
How does this look, in a general order of easy to hard?

1. Oil & filter change
2. Battery replacement (standard battery setup)
3. Periodic scheduled maintenance (sometimes called a scheduled tune up)
(filters, spark plugs, wipers, hoses, pcv, fluids, tires)
4. Belt & belt tensioner replacement
5. Brake overhaul (rotors, drums, pads, shoes)
6. Cooling system overhaul (radiator, waterpump, thermostat, hoses)
7. Alternator replacement
8. Shock absorber or strut replacement
9. Starter replacement
10. Engine belt, chain guide, or engine chain replacement
11. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement
12. Remove & replace engine

I'd add CV joints. That's a common repair. Where these jobs fall on the list
of difficulty depends in large part on the actual vehicle. A Porsche 911,
good luck doing a spark plug replacement on that for example. Which is
why it's a good thing plugs are good to 100K now.

dpb

Mostly far beyond owner...

The teacher was clear that if the owner does not want to get their hands
dirty, that owner will come up with all sorts of excuses as to why.

His point of asking why our wives were not in the class (it was all men),
was that those who want to learn, will learn.

Those who don't want to learn, will never learn and they may tend to make
up excuses like our wives do as to why they can't learn anything.

I don't know what the teacher's exact quote was, but if the intent was
that repair is easier than ever, I'd strongly disagree--it may be that
many what used to be common need for repair has disappeared with newer
technology and better-built (in general) vehicles, but doing _anything_
almost is much more difficult than years ago simply owing to lack of
access if nothing else.

He said a lot of things are easier now than ever before, which in my notes
are that he said that the Internet has videos that didn't exist when he
started out (he is long ago retired), and that cars last longer now than
they did before, and that fluids are a lot better now than they were before
(he showed us old brass radiators with crud inside the openings), and that
maintenance is less now than it was before (he spoke about not needed into
put water in the battery and that spark plugs last longer now than they did
before), and even he joked the "air in tires" is better now (he called it
"green air") than it ever was before.

Even light bulbs often take an engineering degree to figure out just
what pieces parts are necessary to remove the whole taillight assembly
instead of just being able to remove a lens cover w/ a screwdriver and
replace a bulb.

He talked about light bulbs actually, which I had forgotten about.

He said that long ago the Europeans had bright lights.
But in the USA, they wouldn't let us have bright lights.

He mentioned that it was all about making money (not safety).
He said the government forced them to allow us to have bright lights.

Then he said LEDs came into the picture where they last longer.
So you just replace the entire light assembly if the bulb ever burns out.

He said LEDs might last the entire life of the car nowadays.
I don't know if that's true as my car has no LEDs as far as I know.

Do LEDs now last the life of the car?
If not, I might need to add them to the list during the tuneup period.

On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 6:15:48 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 10/17/2018 4:20 PM, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
Ed Pawlowski
You can make #1 the oil change as it is usually fairly simple.

#2 should be "trade in before warranty is up so the dealer will do all
the work"

Getting tough to do simple things on cars the way the engine
comparment is crammed.

The teacher said a list of fallacies on the first day where that was on the
list (in different words). He said it's easier now than it's ever been.

Even though I couldn't keep it at 10, how's this dirty dozen list looking?

1. Oil & filter change
2. Battery replacement (standard battery setup)
3. Periodic scheduled maintenance (sometimes called a scheduled tune up)
Â* (filters, spark plugs, wipers, hoses, pcv, fluids, tires) 4. Belt &
belt tensioner replacement
5. Brake overhaul (rotors, drums, pads, shoes)
6. Cooling system overhaul (radiator, waterpump, thermostat, hoses)
7. Alternator replacement
8. Shock absorber or strut replacement
9. Starter replacement
10. Engine belt, chain guide, or engine chain replacement
11. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement
12. Remove & replace engine

It's hard to put in an easy-to-hard order, but how's that looking?

Mostly far beyond owner...

I'd agree most are beyond the typical owner.



I don't know what the teacher's exact quote was, but if the intent was
that repair is easier than ever, I'd strongly disagree--it may be that
many what used to be common need for repair has disappeared with newer
technology and better-built (in general) vehicles, but doing _anything_
almost is much more difficult than years ago simply owing to lack of
access if nothing else.

I think that's generally true, but it all depends on the particular
repair and the vehicle. Air filter is a little more involved than
when it was a round one on top of the carb, but I've done BMW and Honda
and they were 5 min jobs, the box is right there with clips holding
the cover on. On the other hand getting to say an alternator or water
pump I don't think generally is what it used to be. There is more
stuff in less space, so you have stuff in the way and not nearly as
much space to work. On the other hand, if you have the right diagnostic
equipment that can connect and read everything out, that can save a
lot of time. If you don't know what's wrong, have say a rough running
engine, good luck figuring that out without the diagnostic tool.





One trivial example -- the battery in the Chrysler 300M (along w/ a
bunch of other MoPar vehicles) was in the bottom of the RF fender well
underneath other immovable stuff. There was an access panel inside the
fender well, but to get to the battery even for routine maintenance
required removing the RF wheel. In the Buicks it's either under the
rear seat (Lucerne, other passenger vehicles) or in a box under a panel
in the rear floor (Enclave). Again, both make for routine maintenance
"ain't happening".

How about the heater blower? Decades ago, they were right under the passenger
dash, easy to replace from underneath. The BMW I had to pull the whole dash
because it's buried in the center. And to pull the dash, you first have to
pull the center console. So it was steering wheel, transmission shift,
dash, center console, just to get to it.




Even light bulbs often take an engineering degree to figure out just
what pieces parts are necessary to remove the whole taillight assembly
instead of just being able to remove a lens cover w/ a screwdriver and
replace a bulb.

Or how to get the freaking connectors off or apart. BMW likes to use
about every different variety there is, all different and few that you
have any idea how they come off by looking at them. And that's assuming
you can see it.





I'd give a starter list about like

1. Windshield wiper replace/washer fluid refill
2. Cabin and engine air filters
3. Lights/bulbs...
4. Other fluid levels (oil/tranny, brake)
5. Battery (presuming conventional)
6. Oil change/filter
7. Unibelt replacement

Beyond that, on anything I've seen within last 10 years, you're starting
to talk pretty serious access issues for the average owner...

I've said for ages if they would _just_ put 4-corner independent
suspension, disk brakes and A/C on a '63 Chevy, w/ a modern 3.8L, I'd be
more than happy.

--

I told him in another post that he should add CV joint replacement to the
list, that's a common repair, more common than the struts or shock absorbers.

On 18/10/18 8:29 am, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
Oren
For me, keep the list simple.Â* Stuff you would check or have done
before a road trip.

Simple DIY @ home is not opening the engine. Is the class on basics or
cars with computers...Â* I'd stay simple making the list, myself.

What can I do with the resources I have on hand!

The first lecture was all about the common fallacies of car repair.

His very first question on the board was "Why isn't your wife here?"
Then he asked everyone in the class that question, and we said why.
(Mine has never touched anything dirty or greasy in her life.)

As he wrote down the answers, an assistant (his kid?) passed out a sheet of
paper which had every one of the reasons we each said, already on it.

He said they're universal whenever someone doesn't want to do any job.

For tools, he said at the price of repairs now the tools always pay for
themselves, often on the first use depending on the tools & tasks.

He said learning is easier now than it ever was before, given the Internet.

He told us that anyone who tells us otherwise just doesn't like doing it
which he said was ok but for us to simply recognize it as an excuse.

I couldn't keep the homework list at 10 given the input. How does this
look, in a general order of easy to hard?

1. Oil & filter change
2. Battery replacement (standard battery setup)
3. Periodic scheduled maintenance (sometimes called a scheduled tune up)
Â* (filters, spark plugs, wipers, hoses, pcv, fluids, tires) 4. Belt &
belt tensioner replacement
5. Brake overhaul (rotors, drums, pads, shoes)
6. Cooling system overhaul (radiator, waterpump, thermostat, hoses)
7. Alternator replacement
8. Shock absorber or strut replacement
9. Starter replacement
10. Engine belt, chain guide, or engine chain replacement
11. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement
12. Remove & replace engine

Ditch the timing belt/chain replacement. There's way too many
opportunities in that task to really do your engine in unless you know
what you are doing. Ditto with strut replacement.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

trader_4

I agree, that's generally true. Many jobs that would be $500 at the dealer,
you can DIY for $50 or $100 in parts. And then there are the jobs avoided
because when you know what's really wrong, what really needs fixing vs
what may be BS the dealer is telling you, that could save thousands.

The teacher said he was in the military where he was an expert in excuses.

He was adamant that people spend more time on excuses than on reasons for
doing any distasteful job. He kept saying that the time wasted on excuses
would be better spent on learning how to do the job right in the first
place.

He spent a lot of time on the excuses, probably half that first 90 minute
class, where the sheet of blue paper the kid handed out had all the reasons
we each said was why our wives were not there were all already on it.

He said the excuses for not doing any job are universal.
He said the military is great for excuses which is where he learned this.

He kept telling us that it's OK if someone doesn't want to do a job.
He just told us to recognize the reason as an excuse & not a real reason.

I'd add CV joints. That's a common repair. Where these jobs fall on the list
of difficulty depends in large part on the actual vehicle. A Porsche 911,
good luck doing a spark plug replacement on that for example. Which is
why it's a good thing plugs are good to 100K now.

I forgot about worn ball joints, u joints, and cv joints!
Plus maybe wheel bearings? (Do they wear out in the first 100K miles?)

Thank you for that suggestion.
I will add these wear items to the list.

Probably with the shocks and struts.

On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 7:23:44 PM UTC-4, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
dpb

Mostly far beyond owner...

The teacher was clear that if the owner does not want to get their hands
dirty, that owner will come up with all sorts of excuses as to why.

Do they need an "excuse"? It's not necessarily an issue of getting their
hands dirty.





His point of asking why our wives were not in the class (it was all men),
was that those who want to learn, will learn.

Those who don't want to learn, will never learn and they may tend to make
up excuses like our wives do as to why they can't learn anything.

I don't know what the teacher's exact quote was, but if the intent was
that repair is easier than ever, I'd strongly disagree--it may be that
many what used to be common need for repair has disappeared with newer
technology and better-built (in general) vehicles, but doing _anything_
almost is much more difficult than years ago simply owing to lack of
access if nothing else.

He said a lot of things are easier now than ever before, which in my notes
are that he said that the Internet has videos that didn't exist when he
started out (he is long ago retired), and that cars last longer now than
they did before, and that fluids are a lot better now than they were before
(he showed us old brass radiators with crud inside the openings), and that
maintenance is less now than it was before (he spoke about not needed into
put water in the battery and that spark plugs last longer now than they did
before), and even he joked the "air in tires" is better now (he called it
"green air") than it ever was before.

Like DPB said, that just means that those things last longer, need to be
replaced less often, etc. It doesn't make the work involved with actually
doing the job if it has to be done easier. I think you'd find that replacing
a belt, water pump, alternator, etc is more work today than it was decades
ago on most cars. Today you have ten pounds of crap in a five pound bag
under the hood, packed into a small area. Decades ago, you didn't have the
crap and the engine bay was huge.






Even light bulbs often take an engineering degree to figure out just
what pieces parts are necessary to remove the whole taillight assembly
instead of just being able to remove a lens cover w/ a screwdriver and
replace a bulb.

He talked about light bulbs actually, which I had forgotten about.

He said that long ago the Europeans had bright lights.
But in the USA, they wouldn't let us have bright lights.

He mentioned that it was all about making money (not safety).
He said the government forced them to allow us to have bright lights.

He's got that completely backwards. Decades ago Europeans had bright
lights and better lights. The lens and the bulb were separate. It
was the govt here, Federal DOT that banned them, insisting we could
only use sealed beams. It had nothing to do with money, AFAIK.




Then he said LEDs came into the picture where they last longer.
So you just replace the entire light assembly if the bulb ever burns out.

He said LEDs might last the entire life of the car nowadays.
I don't know if that's true as my car has no LEDs as far as I know.

Do LEDs now last the life of the car?

Theoretically, yes. In the real world, what happens after 10, 15 years
of use, especially in tough climates with moisture, salt, I guess we're
only beginning to find out.


If not, I might need to add them to the list during the tuneup period.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 00:31:37 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 00:10:23 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 05:22:03 +0200, Drago Giambattista Esposito
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski

I see no mention of spark plugs.

I forgot all about spark plugs!
Even though they last 100K miles, they need to be replaced.

I think I'll remove the struts because someone said that struts and brakes
don't go together (although don't struts need to be replaced as much as
spark plugs do?).

I'll definitely add spark plugs to a generic all-purpoe "tune up" even
though a "tune up" doesn't seem to exist as a "thing" any more.

That "tune up" will include the filters and spark plugs and wipers and
anything "rubbery" like hoses. With that tune up can be the simple stuff
with putting air in tires and topping off fluids.

Would that work better?
As long as it's not a 5.4 Ford Triton.

Guaranteed a do-it-yourself plug change by an amateur on one of those
will get REAL expensive.

Try to put an alternator in a new Lincoln.
I gave up pretty fast and took it to the dealer ($800)
That did include recharging the A/C because you have to remove the
compressor.

Try a timing belt on a 97 Prelude. The first step in the shop manual
is "remove engine". In real life the dealer just takes the motor
mounts loose and tilts it up a little. I couldn't even get the
balancer nut loose with a 1/2" impact wrench. I even went on the Honda
repair BB to be sure it wasn't left hand thread. A breaker bar with a
pipe on it was no help either.
I use a good johnson bar and pipe braced against the chassis, and
then hit the starter a few times.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 12:38:23 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:


The first thing in any of these is going to be finding the correct
service information.
Which is the ONLY thing easier today - and even there, on many cars
the info is NOT available from the manufacturer,and often the
information on the net is pure BS at best. (and overtly dangerous in
others)
I'm a retired auto mechanic with a lot of experience - as well as a
former automotive mechanics instructor. I still do a lot of my own
maintenance - but without the use of a friend's hoist out at the
hangar, there is a LOT I would not attempt (some of which I "might"
still do if I was 25 instead of over 65.

As an instructor I wouldn't be encouraging novices to tackle a lot of
what you are talking about.

On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 7:37:02 PM UTC-4, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
trader_4

I agree, that's generally true. Many jobs that would be $500 at the dealer,
you can DIY for $50 or $100 in parts. And then there are the jobs avoided
because when you know what's really wrong, what really needs fixing vs
what may be BS the dealer is telling you, that could save thousands.

The teacher said he was in the military where he was an expert in excuses.

He was adamant that people spend more time on excuses than on reasons for
doing any distasteful job. He kept saying that the time wasted on excuses
would be better spent on learning how to do the job right in the first
place.

He spent a lot of time on the excuses, probably half that first 90 minute
class, where the sheet of blue paper the kid handed out had all the reasons
we each said was why our wives were not there were all already on it.

He said the excuses for not doing any job are universal.
He said the military is great for excuses which is where he learned this.

He kept telling us that it's OK if someone doesn't want to do a job.
He just told us to recognize the reason as an excuse & not a real reason.

Well go ahead, believe what you want to believe, that instructor said it,
must be true. BTW, are you growing all your own fruits and vegetables?
Raising chickens for eggs and meat? Do your own dry cleaning? Process
all your waste into compost? Who the hell is that instructor to decide
what are excuses. Why don't you ask him where he gets his eggs.
He already sounds like an asshole to me.





I'd add CV joints. That's a common repair. Where these jobs fall on the list
of difficulty depends in large part on the actual vehicle. A Porsche 911,
good luck doing a spark plug replacement on that for example. Which is
why it's a good thing plugs are good to 100K now.

I forgot about worn ball joints, u joints, and cv joints!
Plus maybe wheel bearings? (Do they wear out in the first 100K miles?)

Thank you for that suggestion.
I will add these wear items to the list.

Probably with the shocks and struts.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 23:29:05 +0200, Drago Giambattista Esposito
wrote:

Oren

For me, keep the list simple. Stuff you would check or have done
before a road trip.

Simple DIY @ home is not opening the engine. Is the class on basics or
cars with computers... I'd stay simple making the list, myself.

What can I do with the resources I have on hand!

The first lecture was all about the common fallacies of car repair.

His very first question on the board was "Why isn't your wife here?"
Then he asked everyone in the class that question, and we said why.
(Mine has never touched anything dirty or greasy in her life.)

As he wrote down the answers, an assistant (his kid?) passed out a sheet of
paper which had every one of the reasons we each said, already on it.

He said they're universal whenever someone doesn't want to do any job.

For tools, he said at the price of repairs now the tools always pay for
themselves, often on the first use depending on the tools & tasks.

He said learning is easier now than it ever was before, given the Internet.

He told us that anyone who tells us otherwise just doesn't like doing it
which he said was ok but for us to simply recognize it as an excuse.

I couldn't keep the homework list at 10 given the input.
How does this look, in a general order of easy to hard?

1. Oil & filter change
2. Battery replacement (standard battery setup)
3. Periodic scheduled maintenance (sometimes called a scheduled tune up)
(filters, spark plugs, wipers, hoses, pcv, fluids, tires)
4. Belt & belt tensioner replacement
5. Brake overhaul (rotors, drums, pads, shoes)
6. Cooling system overhaul (radiator, waterpump, thermostat, hoses)
7. Alternator replacement
8. Shock absorber or strut replacement
9. Starter replacement
10. Engine belt, chain guide, or engine chain replacement
11. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement
12. Remove & replace engine
Lets dump this troll.
I'll bet he's an electrical enineer that has posted here under
numerous names over the last several years about things like aligning
his front end etc.

If not, he' a "brother from another mother"

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 23:20:01 +0200, Drago Giambattista Esposito
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski

You can make #1 the oil change as it is usually fairly simple.

#2 should be "trade in before warranty is up so the dealer will do all
the work"

Getting tough to do simple things on cars the way the engine comparment
is crammed.

The teacher said a list of fallacies on the first day where that was on the
list (in different words). He said it's easier now than it's ever been.

Even though I couldn't keep it at 10, how's this dirty dozen list looking?

1. Oil & filter change
2. Battery replacement (standard battery setup)
3. Periodic scheduled maintenance (sometimes called a scheduled tune up)
(filters, spark plugs, wipers, hoses, pcv, fluids, tires)
4. Belt & belt tensioner replacement
5. Brake overhaul (rotors, drums, pads, shoes)
6. Cooling system overhaul (radiator, waterpump, thermostat, hoses)
7. Alternator replacement
8. Shock absorber or strut replacement
9. Starter replacement
10. Engine belt, chain guide, or engine chain replacement
11. Clutch replacement and/or automatic filter replacement
12. Remove & replace engine

It's hard to put in an easy-to-hard order, but how's that looking?

Without the car you are talking about "easy to hard" is impossible to
assess.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 17:15:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

Even light bulbs often take an engineering degree to figure out just
what pieces parts are necessary to remove the whole taillight assembly

True My neighbor is a veteran shade tree mechanic and it took him and
a kid 2 days to replace a headlight bulb in a recent model Cadillac.
They had to take a bunch of stuff off to get to it.

On 10/17/2018 6:23 PM, Drago Giambattista Esposito wrote:
dpb
Mostly far beyond owner...

The teacher was clear that if the owner does not want to get their hands
dirty, that owner will come up with all sorts of excuses as to why.

His point of asking why our wives were not in the class (it was all men),
was that those who want to learn, will learn.
Those who don't want to learn, will never learn and they may tend to make
up excuses like our wives do as to why they can't learn anything.

I know all I need to know and as farmer I get more than dirty enough --
my time is far more valuable doing other things than routine automotive
maintenance that don't have the facilities to do easily owing primarily
to the excessive complications that have been introduced over the last
30 years and particularly the last 10 or so.

I don't know what the teacher's exact quote was, but if the intent was
that repair is easier than ever, I'd strongly disagree--it may be that
many what used to be common need for repair has disappeared with newer
technology and better-built (in general) vehicles, but doing
_anything_ almost is much more difficult than years ago simply owing
to lack of access if nothing else.

He said a lot of things are easier now than ever before, which in my notes
are that he said that the Internet has videos that didn't exist when he
started out (he is long ago retired), and that cars last longer now than
they did before, and that fluids are a lot better now than they were before
(he showed us old brass radiators with crud inside the openings), and that
maintenance is less now than it was before (he spoke about not needed into
put water in the battery and that spark plugs last longer now than they did
before), and even he joked the "air in tires" is better now (he called it
"green air") than it ever was before.

That would be the N nonsense...which, while there's some reason for it
in aircraft where they fly at high elevations, there's virtually no
benefit of any reality to be gained in passenger vehicles...it was a fad
that's pretty-much run its course as near as I can tell (and for good
reason).

Even light bulbs often take an engineering degree to figure out just
what pieces parts are necessary to remove the whole taillight assembly
instead of just being able to remove a lens cover w/ a screwdriver and
replace a bulb.

He talked about light bulbs actually, which I had forgotten about.

He said that long ago the Europeans had bright lights.
But in the USA, they wouldn't let us have bright lights.

He mentioned that it was all about making money (not safety).
He said the government forced them to allow us to have bright lights.

Well, he's mostly wrong there, too...there were DOT mandates but they
were primarily safety-related/motivated. The high-intensity lights of
the time, while a real boon to the vehicle with them were also often
blinding to oncoming traffic and so presented a real danger until the
better aiming and beam control was developed.

Then he said LEDs came into the picture where they last longer.
So you just replace the entire light assembly if the bulb ever burns out.

Have you priced one of those recently? May be $200/ea instead of maybe
$9 - 40, depending on just what conventional lighting may have. They
_better_ last but again we're not going to know how good they stand up
until they've been in use in real world situation for a while. Lab and
bench and some simulated rough-use may or may not actually do well at
predicting actual results.

He said LEDs might last the entire life of the car nowadays.
I don't know if that's true as my car has no LEDs as far as I know.

The operative word there is "might"...

....

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 20:19:28 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:


I'll bet he's an electrical enineer that has posted here under
numerous names over the last several years about things like aligning
his front end etc.

If not, he' a "brother from another mother"

I recognized him from the getgo. He confirmed it with his talk about "excuses" for not
doing it yourself. Like his thread about his Harbor Freight tire mounting tool where he
pretty much had the same argument about changing tires.
All harmless trolling.