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TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default more fun with air conditioning


wrote in message
...
TURTLE wrote:

If you turn a hvac system off less than 8 hours. It will cost you more
money to recool the house from a very high temperature to the lower
temperature than just moving up to a higher temperature on the thermostat.


Newton died in 1727. These days, few people argue with his Law of Cooling.

How would the house get from 70 F to 105 F in 8 hours on a 100 F day?
Assuming it could (which would save lots of AC energy), and assuming
it had reasonable insulation, it would have very little thermal mass,
so the AC could cool it back to 70 F very quickly.

Now if you have oversized hvac system like 5 tons on 1,500 sq. ft. house.
Your answer would be ok, but a properly sized system would cost you big
time on a 4 hour down time.

The setback would still save energy, unless the AC becomes a lot less
efficient (has a lower COP) with a higher indoor-outdoor temp diff.

A 1500 ft^2 house with 300 Btu/h-F of thermal conductance could warm from
70 F to 105 F in 8 hours on a 110 F day if RC = -8/(ln((105-110)/(70-105)
= 4.1 hours, which makes C = 4.1x300 = 1200 Btu/F, not much. A 36K Btu/h
AC might cool the house from 105 to 70 F in (105-70)1200/36K = 1.2 hours.
Keeping the house 70 F for 8 hours would require 8(110-70)300/36K = 2.7
hours of AC operation... 1.2/2.7 is a 55% energy savings.


This all looks good on paper but in the real world with a over sized hvac
system as you say a 3 ton on 1,200 sq. ft. house. A properly sized hvac
system will have a 1.5 or maybe 2 ton at most on the 1,200 sq, ft. house.


OK. Let's try 1.5... An 18K Btu/h AC might cool the house from 105 to 70 F
in (105-70)1200/18K = 2.4 hours. Keeping the house 70 F for 8 hours would
require 8(110-70)300/18K = 5.4 hours of AC operation... 2.4/5.4 is a 55%
energy savings, not unlike the previous 55% savings.


***Now all your calculation look good to cool it back off as to saving half the
energy to do so. There is a few things you forgot. Laten air or heavy moisture
content air is hell to cool off. On a 1.5 ton hvac system at 99%RH inside the
house. The btu rating of the hvac system will be reduced by 2,880 btu's. just
for moisture removial during the turn back on of the system when the moisture
content had been let to rize. So your 18,000 btu unit is now 15,120 btu system
till it gets the moisture out of the house.
***Now your forgot about the derating of the hvac system when you operate it in
ambiants of over 95ºF outdoors. The HVAC system is rated at the BTU rating at
95ºF ambiant of the condenser. In the High % RH inside the house and you have
only the rating 15,120 btu system. Then you put the 110ºF Ambiant temperature on
the condenser which will derate the btu rating by 12% of the 15,120 btu system
you have now. It comes to 13,305 btu ability you have now and have to cool the
house with. Now as I can see your hvac system will take longer to cool the house
off than the 2.4 hours as you had said. If the system staied on and keep the
moisture down it would not have to fight the laten heat of the moisture all at
one time.
***Now you had said to turn the system back on before you got home to get the
temperature down to 70ºF inside the house. Now as you have a derated system for
the laten heat and derating of the 110ºF outdoor temperature. You would need tom
turn it back on about 4 hour before coming home and this would shorten your down
time down to about 4 hours. Now you will be running the system 4 hours so that
you can turn it off for 4 hours. So if you turn it off for 4 hour to save some
money. It will still be running at a 50% run time running all the time or
turning it off to feel like you are saving something.
*** Now When hvac system that are being run at high anbiants of the indoor
temperature you super heat will be off the chart till it gets below 80ºF inside
the house and when your super heat is very high the compressor will use more
electricity or watts during this time. By letting this condition happen you will
be burning more power than running at normal indoor temperature. The higher the
temperature is indoors and outdoor will definately cost more to operate.
*** Now with all of this left out. You seem to not have a clue to what is going
on in a hvac system operation in a home.














Now if i would install a over sized hvac system and have a 5 ton or so. It
would not be but a hour or so to get back down to 72ºF inside but I would
have to deal with high humitity in the house and will have to run my system
at lower temperature than 72ºF or maybe down to 65ºF to get the water
vapor out of the house. With a 90%RH a house at 60ºF will feel very warm
inside. With a 10%RH and 95ºF inside the house will feel very cold...


The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard says most people would find 90% RH
at 60 F "very cold" (Y = -3.2, with 99.6% of people dissatisfied) and
10% RH at 95 F "very warm" (Y = +2.8, with a 97.4% PPD.) Maybe you need
a comfortstat vs thermostat. It might automatically lower the air temp
to compensate for a higher RH or Mean Radiant (wall) Temperature.


***Now first your going to have to leave them drug alone here for they are
getting to you and your concept of what is going on here.
***Now either ASHRAE 55-2004 is full of **** or your full of ****. As I see what
you said of 60ºF at a 90%RH is very cold to the average person. Nobody in their
right mine is going to put up with 90%RH at 60ºF in any home. It would be muggey
as hell in there. Your off the wall here son.
***Now You say 10%RH at 95ºF that you or maybe ASHRAE 55-2004 says this is very
warm to the average person. At 10%RH and 95ºF is a very good condition and would
feel pretty good to anybody. The only time this condition would feel warm to a
person would be when it got over 98.6ºF the body temp..
***Now you expressed a need to control the %RH in a home. We have controls now
days that you can set the %RH and the temperature all with a thermostat hanging
on the wall.
***Now Nick if the hvac system was designed correctly and not over sized as you
can only deal with. The %RH and the temperature will go hand in hand as being
correctly set if the system is left on 24 hours a day. All hvac systems are
designed to be left on 24 hour a day and not off and on like you think they
should be run.







Nick


***Now Nick when you start discussing the design of a hvac system with people
who install, service, and work on them. You need more info on the business
[really see what your talking about ] than what comes out of a book. The Book
can only take you so far and then you have to go see what the thing is really
doing when it is running.
***Now Nick try to get a clue when discussing hvac system and how they really
work, but I will say you are good at the book part of the business. The Books
are only half the way and the other half comes with OJT. Get out in the field
and see for yourself.

TURTLE

P.S. Nick -- Does Lost in the 60's mean anything to you?


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004


  #82   Report Post  
 
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Default more fun with air conditioning

Harry Conover wrote:

The Coefficient Of Performance is the ratio of heat energy moved to
electrical energy used, using the same energy units, eg watts. It's
about 3 for a typical AC, vs 10,000 for a good solar heating system :-)


What is the value for a good solar A/C system? :-)


For years, the goal has been to get above 1 :-) But that's less important,
since the energy is free.

Nick

"Unglazed collector/regenerator performance for a solar assisted open cycle
absorption cooling system" by M. N. A. Hawlader, K. S. Novak, and B. D. Wood
of the Center for Energy System Research, College of Engineering and Applied
Sciences, Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ 85287-5806 USA, in Solar Energy,
Vol. 50, pp 59-73, 1993: "An ordinary black shingled roof [was] used as a
collector/regenerator for the evaporation of water to obtain a strong solution
of [lithium chloride] absorbent... Experimental results [with a 36'x36' roof]
show a regeneration efficiency varying between 38 and 67%. The corresponding
cooling capacities ranged from 31 to 72 kW (8.8 to 20 tons)", ie about 1 ton
per 100 square feet of roof area, ie 1 ton per square :-)

In the house "water [the refrigerant] is sprayed into an evaporator, evacuated
to about 5 mmHg of pressure, where it immediately flashes into vapor... Cold
water, pumped from the bottom of the evaporator, flows through a fan coil...
that blows cool air into the conditioned space. The absorber acts as a vapor
compressor and condenser for the system. Water vapor from the evaporator flows
over the absorber where it is absorbed by the concentrated absorbent. The
continuous absorption of water vapor maintains a low pressure in the system
and permits flashing of water in the evaporator... The product of the
absorption process, a weak absorbent solution, collects at the bottom of
the absorber to be pumped [up over the roof] for concentration."

"The dilute LiCl solution was delivered to the collector surface through
a spray header spanning the top of the roof and made from 50.8 mm (2 in)
diameter CPVC pipe fitted with 35 evenly spaced brass nozzles. The
concentrated solution collected at the bottom... in a PVC rain gutter, and
returned via gravity feed to a 1608 l (425 gallon) fiberglass tank... In
the event of of a rain, fluid flowing off the collector could be manually
diverted to a 946 l (250 gallon) wash tank or to a roof drain. During the
initial phase of the rain, residual salt would be washed from the roof
and collected in the wash tank to be stored for later regeneration. After
sufficient rainfall, the rainwater is diverted to the roof drain."

  #83   Report Post  
 
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Default more fun with air conditioning

TURTLE wrote:

If you turn a hvac system off less than 8 hours. It will cost you more
money to recool the house from a very high temperature to the lower
temperature than just moving up to a higher temperature on the thermostat.


Would you say this about a heating setback, with an ordinary furnace?

How would the house get from 70 F to 105 F in 8 hours on a 100 F day?
Assuming it could (which would save lots of AC energy), and assuming
it had reasonable insulation, it would have very little thermal mass,
so the AC could cool it back to 70 F very quickly.

Now if you have oversized hvac system like 5 tons on 1,500 sq. ft. house.
Your answer would be ok, but a properly sized system would cost you big
time on a 4 hour down time.


Time or energy?

The setback would still save energy, unless the AC becomes a lot less
efficient (has a lower COP) with a higher indoor-outdoor temp diff.


You said ACs are rated at 95 F outdoors, and capacity might decrease from
36K Btu/h to 33 or 31 at 105 F. What about COP? And... if an AC must work
at 105 F in late afternoon to cool a house back to 70 F after a setback,
it might have to work at _115 F_ to keep the house 70 F in the warmer part
of the day, with no setback.

A 1500 ft^2 house with 300 Btu/h-F of thermal conductance could warm from
70 F to 105 F in 8 hours on a 110 F day if RC = -8/(ln((105-110)/(70-105)
= 4.1 hours, which makes C = 4.1x300 = 1200 Btu/F, not much. A 36K Btu/h
AC might cool the house from 105 to 70 F in (105-70)1200/36K = 1.2 hours.
Keeping the house 70 F for 8 hours would require 8(110-70)300/36K = 2.7
hours of AC operation... 1.2/2.7 is a 55% energy savings.

This all looks good on paper


This AC setback seems to save lots of energy.

but in the real world with a over sized hvac system as you say a 3 ton on
1,200 sq. ft. house. A properly sized hvac system will have a 1.5 or maybe
2 ton at most on the 1,200 sq, ft. house.


....1,200 or 1,500?

OK. Let's try 1.5... An 18K Btu/h AC might cool the house from 105 to 70 F
in (105-70)1200/18K = 2.4 hours. Keeping the house 70 F for 8 hours would
require 8(110-70)300/18K = 5.4 hours of AC operation... 2.4/5.4 is a 55%
energy savings, not unlike the previous 55% savings.


***Now all your calculation look good to cool it back off as to saving half
the energy to do so.


This AC setback seems to save lots of energy.

There is a few things you forgot. Laten air or heavy moisture content air
is hell to cool off. On a 1.5 ton hvac system at 99%RH inside the house.
The btu rating of the hvac system will be reduced by 2,880 btu's.


Why 2,880 Btu/h, vs 2,400 or 5,327?

I forgot the house was 99% RH inside? :-) That seems like a different case.

How did the house air get that way? Perhaps it's built in a Florida swamp?
Key West is very damp in August, with w = 0.0185, but the average temp is
only 84, with an 89 F daily max and a 95 record high... 84 F at w = 0.0185
is only 73% RH, but the dew point is 74, so you might make the house air
99% RH for a while if you AC'd it to 70 F, then opened all the windows.
But why would you want to do that?

I believe the setback would still save energy, with the windows closed.
Houses leak air, and that can require dehumidification, but they leak
less air (via stack effect) if the indoor-outdoor temp diff is smaller,
eg during an AC setback. We could quantify this in excruciating detail.

just for moisture removial during the turn back on of the system when the
moisture content had been let to rize. So your 18,000 btu unit is now
15,120 btu system till it gets the moisture out of the house.


Why 15,120 Btu/h, vs 14,926 or 17,261?

***Now your forgot about the derating of the hvac system when you operate
it in ambiants of over 95ºF outdoors.


We might agree that _helps_ setbacks save energy. (And say "you forgot.")

The HVAC system is rated at the BTU rating at 95ºF ambiant of the
condenser. In the High % RH inside the house and you have only the rating
15,120 btu system. Then you put the 110ºF Ambiant temperature on the
condenser which will derate the btu rating by 12% of the 15,120 btu system
you have now. It comes to 13,305 btu ability you have now and have to cool
the house with. Now as I can see your hvac system will take longer to cool
the house off than the 2.4 hours as you had said. If the system staied on
and keep the moisture down it would not have to fight the laten heat of
the moisture all at one time.


But it still needs fighting, even without a setback. IMO, latent loads are
just ongoing heat loads which don't affect setback savings unless we open
the windows during the setback and get condensation (vs humid air) inside
the house.

***Now you had said to turn the system back on before you got home to get
the temperature down to 70ºF inside the house. Now as you have a derated
system for the laten heat and derating of the 110ºF outdoor temperature.
You would need tom turn it back on about 4 hour before coming home and this
would shorten your down time down to about 4 hours.


Why 4 hours, vs 3 or 7?

Now you will be running the system 4 hours so that you can turn it off for
4 hours. So if you turn it off for 4 hour to save some money. It will still
be running at a 50% run time running all the time or turning it off to feel
like you are saving something.


I think you will find it still saves money.

*** Now When hvac system that are being run at high anbiants of the indoor
temperature you super heat will be off the chart till it gets below 80ºF
inside the house and when your super heat is very high the compressor will
use more electricity or watts during this time.


So... if it's 105 F outdoors, a house that's 80 F indoors will use more AC
electrical power than a house that's 70 F indoors? :-) And even more, if
the house is 105 F indoors?

By letting this condition happen you will be burning more power than
running at normal indoor temperature. The higher the temperature is
indoors and outdoor will definately cost more to operate.


Newton might be surprised :-)

*** Now with all of this left out. You seem to not have a clue to what
is going on in a hvac system operation in a home.


Perhaps we can help each other. You don't seem to understand Newton's Law
of Cooling: the amount of heat that flows through a wall is proportional
to the size of the wall and the indoor-outdoor temp diff. If the indoor-
outdoor temp diff is 0, no heat flows.

Now if i would install a over sized hvac system and have a 5 ton or so.
It would not be but a hour or so to get back down to 72ºF inside but
I would have to deal with high humitity in the house


You seem to have trouble spelling the word "humidity" :-) Koko the gorilla
has a 1000 word vocabulary. WWII "basic English" for islanders had 800 words,
eg "howitzer." "Humidity" seems like a basic HVAC word. How many words does
an HVAC criminal need to be successful at his or her trade? Must they be
spelled correctly? You also seem to have trouble with "laten," "anbiant,"
"rize," "removial," and "tom."

and will have to run my system at lower temperature than 72ºF or
maybe down to 65ºF to get the water vapor out of the house. With
a 90%RH a house at 60ºF will feel very warm inside. With a 10%RH
and 95ºF inside the house will feel very cold...


The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard says most people would find 90% RH
at 60 F "very cold" (Y = -3.2, with 99.6% of people dissatisfied) and
10% RH at 95 F "very warm" (Y = +2.8, with a 97.4% PPD.) Maybe you need
a comfortstat vs thermostat. It might automatically lower the air temp
to compensate for a higher RH or Mean Radiant (wall) Temperature.


***Now first your going to have to leave them drug alone here for they are
getting to you and your concept of what is going on here.


When did you stop beating your wife? :-)

***Now either ASHRAE 55-2004 is full of **** or your full of ****.


You might more properly say "You're full of ****." But there's at least
one other possible explanation. Without meaning to seem disrespectful,
I submit that you may be wrong (gasp.)

Here's a quote:

Standard 55-2004, "Thermal Environmental Conditions for Human Occupancy,"
is a revision of Standard 55-1992. The standard specifies conditions in
which a specified fraction of the occupants will find the environment
thermally aceptable. The revision is a consensus standard that has
undergone public and ASHRAE review; it incorporates the relevant research
and experience gained since the 1992 revision... intended for use in design,
commmissioning, and testing of buildings and other occupied spaces and
their HVAC systems and for the evaluation of thermal environments... in
close agreement with ISO Standards 7726 and 7730... based on an adaptive
model of thermal comfort that is derived from a global database of 21,000
measurements taken primarily in office buildings.

As I see what you said of 60ºF at a 90%RH is very cold to the average
person. Nobody in their right mine is going to put up with 90%RH at 60ºF
in any home. It would be muggey as hell in there. Your off the wall here son.


Dad!!! I never knew. You must be very old. Please remember me in your will.

The ASHRAE 55-2004 spec has a minimum comfy temp of 67.3 F. Below that, most
people are "cold." You said 60 F is "very warm." Maybe TURTLE is right, and
thousands of people mistakenly said they were too warm vs too cold at 60 F,
and the 31 comfort experts on the 55 standards committee were also wrong.

***Now You say 10%RH at 95ºF that you or maybe ASHRAE 55-2004 says this
is very warm to the average person.


The ASHRAE 55-2004 spec has a maximum comfy temp of 82.2 F. Above that, most
people are "hot." You initially said 10% RH at 95 F is "very cold," and now
you say 10%RH and 95ºF is "a very good condition and would feel pretty good
to anybody." Maybe TURTLE is right, and thousands of people mistakenly said
they were too cold vs too warm at 95 F, and the 31 experts on the ASHRAE 55
standards committee were also wrong. You might buy a copy of ASHRAE 55-2004
(a 28 page standard), and mail in the attached enclosed "Form for submittal
of proposed change to this standard under continuous maintenance." For sure,
your opinions will be duly noted.

***Now you expressed a need to control the %RH in a home.


I think that was you.

We have controls now days that you can set the %RH and the temperature
all with a thermostat hanging on the wall.


I think I said that.

***Now Nick if the hvac system was designed correctly and not over sized
as you can only deal with. The %RH and the temperature will go hand in hand
as being correctly set if the system is left on 24 hours a day. All hvac
systems are designed to be left on 24 hour a day and not off and on like
you think they should be run.


It seems to me that a well-designed HVAC system would operate at a 100%
duty cycle at the local coincident summer dry-bulb/wet-bulb design temp,
which would only occur for 1% of the year, eg for 88 non-consecutive hours.
I mentioned this before, but you seem to have ignored it.

***Now Nick when you start discussing the design of a hvac system with people
who install, service, and work on them. You need more info on the business


Ah yes. The value of same-sex blowjobs. I'll leave that to you and Paul :-)

[really see what your talking about ] than what comes out of a book. The Book
can only take you so far and then you have to go see what the thing is really
doing when it is running.


It seems very useful to be able to walk up to a system, smell the charred
paint, look at the blown fuses and thermostat settings, and so on.

***Now Nick try to get a clue when discussing hvac system and how they really
work, but I will say you are good at the book part of the business.


Thanks. Would that you had a clue as well! (In the hortatory subjunctive.)

The Books are only half the way and the other half comes with OJT. Get out
in the field and see for yourself.


No thanks. My heart is too pure.

P.S. Nick -- Does Lost in the 60's mean anything to you?


I'm a frayed knot.

Nick

  #84   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default more fun with air conditioning


wrote in message
...
TURTLE wrote:

If you turn a hvac system off less than 8 hours. It will cost you more
money to recool the house from a very high temperature to the lower
temperature than just moving up to a higher temperature on the thermostat.


Would you say this about a heating setback, with an ordinary furnace?

How would the house get from 70 F to 105 F in 8 hours on a 100 F day?
Assuming it could (which would save lots of AC energy), and assuming
it had reasonable insulation, it would have very little thermal mass,
so the AC could cool it back to 70 F very quickly.

Now if you have oversized hvac system like 5 tons on 1,500 sq. ft. house.
Your answer would be ok, but a properly sized system would cost you big
time on a 4 hour down time.


Time or energy?

The setback would still save energy, unless the AC becomes a lot less
efficient (has a lower COP) with a higher indoor-outdoor temp diff.


You said ACs are rated at 95 F outdoors, and capacity might decrease from
36K Btu/h to 33 or 31 at 105 F. What about COP? And... if an AC must work
at 105 F in late afternoon to cool a house back to 70 F after a setback,
it might have to work at _115 F_ to keep the house 70 F in the warmer part
of the day, with no setback.

A 1500 ft^2 house with 300 Btu/h-F of thermal conductance could warm

from
70 F to 105 F in 8 hours on a 110 F day if RC

= -8/(ln((105-110)/(70-105)
= 4.1 hours, which makes C = 4.1x300 = 1200 Btu/F, not much. A 36K Btu/h
AC might cool the house from 105 to 70 F in (105-70)1200/36K = 1.2

hours.
Keeping the house 70 F for 8 hours would require 8(110-70)300/36K = 2.7
hours of AC operation... 1.2/2.7 is a 55% energy savings.

This all looks good on paper


This AC setback seems to save lots of energy.

but in the real world with a over sized hvac system as you say a 3 ton on
1,200 sq. ft. house. A properly sized hvac system will have a 1.5 or maybe
2 ton at most on the 1,200 sq, ft. house.


...1,200 or 1,500?

OK. Let's try 1.5... An 18K Btu/h AC might cool the house from 105 to 70 F
in (105-70)1200/18K = 2.4 hours. Keeping the house 70 F for 8 hours would
require 8(110-70)300/18K = 5.4 hours of AC operation... 2.4/5.4 is a 55%
energy savings, not unlike the previous 55% savings.


***Now all your calculation look good to cool it back off as to saving half
the energy to do so.


This AC setback seems to save lots of energy.

There is a few things you forgot. Laten air or heavy moisture content air
is hell to cool off. On a 1.5 ton hvac system at 99%RH inside the house.
The btu rating of the hvac system will be reduced by 2,880 btu's.


Why 2,880 Btu/h, vs 2,400 or 5,327?

I forgot the house was 99% RH inside? :-) That seems like a different case.

How did the house air get that way? Perhaps it's built in a Florida swamp?
Key West is very damp in August, with w = 0.0185, but the average temp is
only 84, with an 89 F daily max and a 95 record high... 84 F at w = 0.0185
is only 73% RH, but the dew point is 74, so you might make the house air
99% RH for a while if you AC'd it to 70 F, then opened all the windows.
But why would you want to do that?

I believe the setback would still save energy, with the windows closed.
Houses leak air, and that can require dehumidification, but they leak
less air (via stack effect) if the indoor-outdoor temp diff is smaller,
eg during an AC setback. We could quantify this in excruciating detail.

just for moisture removial during the turn back on of the system when the
moisture content had been let to rize. So your 18,000 btu unit is now
15,120 btu system till it gets the moisture out of the house.


Why 15,120 Btu/h, vs 14,926 or 17,261?

***Now your forgot about the derating of the hvac system when you operate
it in ambiants of over 95ºF outdoors.


We might agree that _helps_ setbacks save energy. (And say "you forgot.")

The HVAC system is rated at the BTU rating at 95ºF ambiant of the
condenser. In the High % RH inside the house and you have only the rating
15,120 btu system. Then you put the 110ºF Ambiant temperature on the
condenser which will derate the btu rating by 12% of the 15,120 btu system
you have now. It comes to 13,305 btu ability you have now and have to cool
the house with. Now as I can see your hvac system will take longer to cool
the house off than the 2.4 hours as you had said. If the system staied on
and keep the moisture down it would not have to fight the laten heat of
the moisture all at one time.


But it still needs fighting, even without a setback. IMO, latent loads are
just ongoing heat loads which don't affect setback savings unless we open
the windows during the setback and get condensation (vs humid air) inside
the house.

***Now you had said to turn the system back on before you got home to get
the temperature down to 70ºF inside the house. Now as you have a derated
system for the laten heat and derating of the 110ºF outdoor temperature.
You would need tom turn it back on about 4 hour before coming home and this
would shorten your down time down to about 4 hours.


Why 4 hours, vs 3 or 7?

Now you will be running the system 4 hours so that you can turn it off for
4 hours. So if you turn it off for 4 hour to save some money. It will still
be running at a 50% run time running all the time or turning it off to feel
like you are saving something.


I think you will find it still saves money.

*** Now When hvac system that are being run at high anbiants of the indoor
temperature you super heat will be off the chart till it gets below 80ºF
inside the house and when your super heat is very high the compressor will
use more electricity or watts during this time.


So... if it's 105 F outdoors, a house that's 80 F indoors will use more AC
electrical power than a house that's 70 F indoors? :-) And even more, if
the house is 105 F indoors?

By letting this condition happen you will be burning more power than
running at normal indoor temperature. The higher the temperature is
indoors and outdoor will definately cost more to operate.


Newton might be surprised :-)

*** Now with all of this left out. You seem to not have a clue to what
is going on in a hvac system operation in a home.


Perhaps we can help each other. You don't seem to understand Newton's Law
of Cooling: the amount of heat that flows through a wall is proportional
to the size of the wall and the indoor-outdoor temp diff. If the indoor-
outdoor temp diff is 0, no heat flows.

Now if i would install a over sized hvac system and have a 5 ton or so.
It would not be but a hour or so to get back down to 72ºF inside but
I would have to deal with high humitity in the house


You seem to have trouble spelling the word "humidity" :-) Koko the gorilla
has a 1000 word vocabulary. WWII "basic English" for islanders had 800 words,
eg "howitzer." "Humidity" seems like a basic HVAC word. How many words does
an HVAC criminal need to be successful at his or her trade? Must they be
spelled correctly? You also seem to have trouble with "laten," "anbiant,"
"rize," "removial," and "tom."

and will have to run my system at lower temperature than 72ºF or
maybe down to 65ºF to get the water vapor out of the house. With
a 90%RH a house at 60ºF will feel very warm inside. With a 10%RH
and 95ºF inside the house will feel very cold...

The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard says most people would find 90% RH
at 60 F "very cold" (Y = -3.2, with 99.6% of people dissatisfied) and
10% RH at 95 F "very warm" (Y = +2.8, with a 97.4% PPD.) Maybe you need
a comfortstat vs thermostat. It might automatically lower the air temp
to compensate for a higher RH or Mean Radiant (wall) Temperature.


***Now first your going to have to leave them drug alone here for they are
getting to you and your concept of what is going on here.


When did you stop beating your wife? :-)

***Now either ASHRAE 55-2004 is full of **** or your full of ****.


You might more properly say "You're full of ****." But there's at least
one other possible explanation. Without meaning to seem disrespectful,
I submit that you may be wrong (gasp.)

Here's a quote:

Standard 55-2004, "Thermal Environmental Conditions for Human Occupancy,"
is a revision of Standard 55-1992. The standard specifies conditions in
which a specified fraction of the occupants will find the environment
thermally aceptable. The revision is a consensus standard that has
undergone public and ASHRAE review; it incorporates the relevant research
and experience gained since the 1992 revision... intended for use in design,
commmissioning, and testing of buildings and other occupied spaces and
their HVAC systems and for the evaluation of thermal environments... in
close agreement with ISO Standards 7726 and 7730... based on an adaptive
model of thermal comfort that is derived from a global database of 21,000
measurements taken primarily in office buildings.

As I see what you said of 60ºF at a 90%RH is very cold to the average
person. Nobody in their right mine is going to put up with 90%RH at 60ºF
in any home. It would be muggey as hell in there. Your off the wall here son.


Dad!!! I never knew. You must be very old. Please remember me in your will.

The ASHRAE 55-2004 spec has a minimum comfy temp of 67.3 F. Below that, most
people are "cold." You said 60 F is "very warm." Maybe TURTLE is right, and
thousands of people mistakenly said they were too warm vs too cold at 60 F,
and the 31 comfort experts on the 55 standards committee were also wrong.





I'm sorry to get you to tring to cover up the ideal that your not versed in High
moisture content rooms and low temperatures. YOU SAY People are very cold at
60ºF but you totally left out the 90%RH which make it another ball game all
together. As I have been reading your statements you totally ignore %RH all
together in deciding as to a comfort level would be. If you ignore the %RH level
you might as well ignore the temperature too while your at it. I just thought
here a minute and i see you have no ideal of what %RH is or what part it plays
in the HVAC business.






***Now You say 10%RH at 95ºF that you or maybe ASHRAE 55-2004 says this
is very warm to the average person.


The ASHRAE 55-2004 spec has a maximum comfy temp of 82.2 F. Above that, most
people are "hot." You initially said 10% RH at 95 F is "very cold," and now
you say 10%RH and 95ºF is "a very good condition and would feel pretty good
to anybody." Maybe TURTLE is right, and thousands of people mistakenly said
they were too cold vs too warm at 95 F, and the 31 experts on the ASHRAE 55
standards committee were also wrong. You might buy a copy of ASHRAE 55-2004
(a 28 page standard), and mail in the attached enclosed "Form for submittal
of proposed change to this standard under continuous maintenance." For sure,
your opinions will be duly noted.



Now again your quoting temperature that people would feel warm at and totally
ignoring %RH all together. The ASHRAE states temperature of the room that people
will say it is warm but the %RH will be or near 35%RH which 82.5ºF might be warm
to them. Now take the same people and put them in a room at 10%RH and 95ºF and
they will tell you is seems pretty good in here. Now I see you still don't have
any ideal of what %RH is and the effect on humans or people in a building. You
need to get with Paul and get him to explain what %RH is and the effect is on
the human body.

I have thought about here and it just seems to me that you have no ideal as to
what the hvac business is all about at all. I tell you about conditions with the
%RH very low and you ignore it totally. Any HVAC contractor, Engineer, HVAC
control system engineer, or even a helper will tell you and explain the %RH and
it's effect on the comfort level in a home, building or barn. You have no ideal
at all about %RH, Do you ? Nick my helper who only went to the 9 th grade in
school and he can tell you about the %RH and it's effect on the comfort level.
Nick did you finish the 6 th grade? I'm not joking Nick. Nick you can't bull****
your way into a bunch of hvac business people without they looking at you funny
and they thinking your a bull****ter.

TURTLE


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  #85   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default more fun with air conditioning

TURTLE wrote:

...YOU SAY People are very cold at 60ºF


Not just me. Thousands of people say so :-)

but you totally left out the 90%RH which make it another ball game all
together.


Most people say they feel too cold at 60 F, no matter what the RH is.

Temperature is the main thing that determines comfort, especially for
people who aren't working hard. If they aren't sweating, humidity is
a lot less important than temperature.

***Now You say 10%RH at 95ºF that you or maybe ASHRAE 55-2004 says this
is very warm to the average person.


And TURTLE says it's very cold :-) My grandmother used to talk about
"Frozen Usher." He would only drive his buckboard into Mayfield, KY on
the hottest day of the year, when he was all bundled up in his thick
winter coat, with sweaters and gloves and a woolen hat...

The ASHRAE 55-2004 spec has a maximum comfy temp of 82.2 F. Above that, most
people are "hot." You initially said 10% RH at 95 F is "very cold," and now
you say 10%RH and 95ºF is "a very good condition and would feel pretty
good to anybody." Maybe TURTLE is right, and thousands of people mistakenly
said they felt too cold vs too warm at 95 F, and the 31 comfort experts on
the ASHRAE 55 standards committee were also wrong...


Now again your quoting temperature that people would feel warm at and totally
ignoring %RH all together.


Most people say they feel too hot at 95 F, no matter what the RH is.

The ASHRAE states temperature of the room that people will say it is warm
but the %RH will be or near 35%RH which 82.5ºF might be warm to them.
Now take the same people and put them in a room at 10%RH and 95ºF and
they will tell you is seems pretty good in here.


No. The ASHRAE 55-2004 standard comfort zone upper temp limit is 82.2 F,
regardless of humidity. Above that, most people feel too hot.

Nick



  #86   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default more fun with air conditioning


wrote in message
...
TURTLE wrote:

...YOU SAY People are very cold at 60ºF


Not just me. Thousands of people say so :-)

but you totally left out the 90%RH which make it another ball game all
together.


Most people say they feel too cold at 60 F, no matter what the RH is.


This is Turtle.

Let me stop right here and say Nick your Full of **** to make a very stupit
statement like this. You don't have to try to pass yourself off as a person who
knows anything about the HVAC business at all any more for this statement tells
me you don't have a clue at all.

I added the post to alt.hvac for a joke to listen to and have a chuckle.

TURTLE


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004


  #87   Report Post  
 
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Default

Sir TURTLE wrote:

...YOU SAY People are very cold at 60ºF


Not just me. Thousands of people say so :-)

but you totally left out the 90%RH which make it another ball game all
together.


Incorrect. Check out ASHRAE standard 55-2004, if you please.

Most people say they feel too cold at 60 F, no matter what the RH is.


Let me stop right here and say Nick your Full of **** to make a very stupit
statement like this. You don't have to try to pass yourself off as a person
who knows anything about the HVAC business...


I'm happy enough to pass myself off as a person with two engineering degrees
in sci.engr.heat-vent-ac :-)

I added the post to alt.hvac for a joke to listen to and have a chuckle.


We might all chuckle at your credentials...

Nick

  #88   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
...
Sir TURTLE wrote:

...YOU SAY People are very cold at 60ºF

Not just me. Thousands of people say so :-)

but you totally left out the 90%RH which make it another ball game all
together.


Incorrect. Check out ASHRAE standard 55-2004, if you please.

Most people say they feel too cold at 60 F, no matter what the RH is.


Let me stop right here and say Nick your Full of **** to make a very stupit
statement like this. You don't have to try to pass yourself off as a person
who knows anything about the HVAC business...


I'm happy enough to pass myself off as a person with two engineering degrees
in sci.engr.heat-vent-ac :-)

I added the post to alt.hvac for a joke to listen to and have a chuckle.


We might all chuckle at your credentials...

Nick


This is Turtle.

Yea, I don't have much but 40+ years in the HVAC/R business and run my own
business for the last 20 years.

TURTLE


  #89   Report Post  
0_Qed
 
Posts: n/a
Default

TURTLE wrote:
This is Turtle.
Yea, I don't have much but 40+ years in the HVAC/R business and run my own
business for the last 20 years.
TURTLE


Turtle,

Rest =assured= , most folks that read your material will 'side'
with you ... :-)

ME?
I can out_credential the two(2) of you put "together" ...
still, ... :-) ... I'd listen to you.

Qed.
  #90   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

0_Qed wrote:

Turtle,

Rest =assured= , most folks that read your material will 'side'
with you ... :-)
ME?
I can out_credential the two(2) of you put "together" ...
I'd listen to you.


Someone else thinks 60 F is too hot and 95 F is too cold? :-)

Nick



  #92   Report Post  
Stormin Mormon
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Humility. Great trait.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"0_Qed" wrote in message
...

I can out_credential the two(2) of you put "together" ...
still, ... :-) ... I'd listen to you.

Qed.


  #93   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Humility. Great trait.

--

Christopher A. Young


This is Turtle.

Common sence -- a great trait!!!!!!!

TURTLE


  #94   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Honesty and knowing your trade
a Greater Trait !!!!

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