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Default US 220V 20A TO CHINA 220V 10A MAHJONG MACHINE

On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 22:44:49 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

That is why a 120/240v GFCI costs about 3x what a 120v one costs.


Our system is so much simpler. There really is no reason to have 110V equipment.


I suppose we could go dig up Thomas Edison and ask him why he wanted
to use 110v but we seem to be stuck with it now.
It could have been worse. Old Tom wanted 110v DC.
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Default US 220V 20A TO CHINA 220V 10A MAHJONG MACHINE

On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 22:53:22 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 22:41:19 -0000, wrote:



But what I'm interested in is do you ever have 220V devices connected to the same +/-110V wires as 110V devices, off the same breaker? If so, how does this breaker cope with THREE possible current flows?


The GFCI is "clever" as you say but a regular breaker only measures
the current on the ungrounded conductors, no matter where it ends up.
You can have both available at the same location and we even have the
devices to make it easy

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/5-20-6-20.jpg
The top one is 240v 15 or 20a, the bottom is 120v 15 or 20a.


My house is a lot simpler. 240V and 0V. All the 240V lines have a FUSE on them, none of this namby pamby circuit breaker **** causing false positives. I don't have to worry about crossing between circuits, there's only one 0V line, and it's the same as "earth". Both are wired together at the meter, then go back as the shielding on the armoured cable from the utility transformer. I often use earth instead of neutral, because having no circuit breakers, it's doesn't matter!


Yeah but when your RCD trips, the whole house goes dark. Then you are
on an easter egg hunt looking for the cause.
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Default US 220V 20A TO CHINA 220V 10A MAHJONG MACHINE

On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 18:51:32 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 02/15/2018 04:41 PM, wrote:

[snip]

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/5-20-6-20.jpg
The top one is 240v 15 or 20a, the bottom is 120v 15 or 20a.


These might have been what we had in the apartment I when in during 2nd
grade. I just remember my father saying you can use only half of each
plug. These apartments belonged to the university, and there were a lot
of foreign students. Maybe that explains the 240V receptacles.

Would each half be on a different circuit?


It is all one circuit with one of the 240 legs going to the 5-20
receptacle along with the neutral
You bring 2 ungrounded conductors a neutral and a ground to that box
normally.
You could even make it more interesting and put that in a 4" box with
another 5-20 or 5-15 duplex on the other ungrounded leg.
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Default US 220V 20A TO CHINA 220V 10A MAHJONG MACHINE

On 02/15/2018 09:29 PM, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 23:20:58 -0000, Jeff Wisnia wrote:



Ralph Mowery wrote:
A sneaker way to run the 240 volt devices (you did not hear it from me)
is to find two recepticals on the different legs .* YOu then run a wire
from each of the hot wires to the 240 volt device.* It helps for safety
if you also run a ground wire.* You do not need the neutrals if only a
240 volt device is hooked up.
If you do for some reason need a 120 volt device also, you can run the
neutral wires.* As they are connected together at the breaker box, you
can use either one or both of them.* Just be warned that if a single
breaker trips , the other side will still be 120 volts to ground and
neutral.

Ralph you just reminded me that about 63 years ago when I was a student
living in a dorm room at MIT. I acquired a 240 volt window air
conditioner and wanted to use it to cool our room. It turned out the
wall outlets in the room next to ours were on the other side of the 240
volt line so we ran a single wire out our window and into the window in
the next room. Presto, problem solved.

The next year I moved out of the dorm and rented an apartment across the
Charles river in Boston. Shortly after I hauled my stuff over there
guess what? I found out that building was one of many there still on DC
power and none of my beloved stereo equipment would work. I managed to
talk my way out of the lease because of that and found another place
that had already moved to AC power.

Lots of other funny things happened back then, like I went to try phone
sex but found out the holes in the dial were too small. G


Direct current?* Oh my god how old are you?!


Nine squared plus one as of February 10th.

Jeff

I suspect you'll prolly have to give jws another hint.

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On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 2:00:21 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 01:54:27 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article , says...

Being in the UK I'm not sure how this works in the US. But before those namby pamby circuit breakers, you just had -110V, 0V, +110V. You could take 110V from either of the 0V and 110V wires, or 220V from the two 110V wires. Do the circuit breakers think there's an earth fault if you try to run a 220V device off two 110V wires?

I thought an American circuit was paired - i.e. the two 110V lines were linked and run off a dual breaker which would accept a 220V device?




I think you have it correct. In the US what we have comming into the
house are 3 (or 4) wires. At the pole is a transformer that is center
tapped. across the full winding is 240 volts. From the center wire
(called the neutral) to either of the other wires is half that or 120
volts. So we can have either 120 volt or 240 volt devices. There is on
the newer items a safety ground that connects to the neutral at the
breaker box.



A sneaker way to run the 240 volt devices (you did not hear it from me)
is to find two recepticals on the different legs . YOu then run a wire
from each of the hot wires to the 240 volt device. It helps for safety
if you also run a ground wire. You do not need the neutrals if only a
240 volt device is hooked up.
If you do for some reason need a 120 volt device also, you can run the
neutral wires. As they are connected together at the breaker box, you
can use either one or both of them. Just be warned that if a single
breaker trips , the other side will still be 120 volts to ground and
neutral.


Don't you get a problem with earth leakage detection on the circuit breakers?
In the UK this is quite simple, the breaker measures the current through 240v and through 0V, and if they differ, some must have escaped to ground and it cuts the power.
Now how would this work in the USA, where you can have current flowing between -110V and +110V, or from one of the 110V wires to 0V? You'd have to have a very clever mechanism that monitored THREE currents and compared them all somehow.


Why do you think it's so hard to measure current in 3 wires, versus 2? It's not.


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On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 4:17:54 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 21:01:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 2:00:21 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 01:54:27 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article , says...

Being in the UK I'm not sure how this works in the US. But before those namby pamby circuit breakers, you just had -110V, 0V, +110V. You could take 110V from either of the 0V and 110V wires, or 220V from the two 110V wires. Do the circuit breakers think there's an earth fault if you try to run a 220V device off two 110V wires?
I thought an American circuit was paired - i.e. the two 110V lines were linked and run off a dual breaker which would accept a 220V device?




I think you have it correct. In the US what we have comming into the
house are 3 (or 4) wires. At the pole is a transformer that is center
tapped. across the full winding is 240 volts. From the center wire
(called the neutral) to either of the other wires is half that or 120
volts. So we can have either 120 volt or 240 volt devices. There is on
the newer items a safety ground that connects to the neutral at the
breaker box.



A sneaker way to run the 240 volt devices (you did not hear it from me)
is to find two recepticals on the different legs . YOu then run a wire
from each of the hot wires to the 240 volt device. It helps for safety
if you also run a ground wire. You do not need the neutrals if only a
240 volt device is hooked up.
If you do for some reason need a 120 volt device also, you can run the
neutral wires. As they are connected together at the breaker box, you
can use either one or both of them. Just be warned that if a single
breaker trips , the other side will still be 120 volts to ground and
neutral.

Don't you get a problem with earth leakage detection on the circuit breakers?
In the UK this is quite simple, the breaker measures the current through 240v and through 0V, and if they differ, some must have escaped to ground and it cuts the power.
Now how would this work in the USA, where you can have current flowing between -110V and +110V, or from one of the 110V wires to 0V? You'd have to have a very clever mechanism that monitored THREE currents and compared them all somehow.


First, most 240v breakers are not GFCI.


And here was me thinking the US had MORE safety than the UK.

Anyway, the OP wanted to run 240v off the 120v system, so we'd be talking about a twin 120v GFCI breaker. Would it care if some current didn't go through neutral? I guess it can't, as two equal 120v loads would mean it never went into neutral at all.

Second, there are GFCI breakers
that include a neutral, so they can detect the current flow and if it
doesn't add up, ie sum of two hots and neutral is not zero, they trip.


So those could handle an array of loads at both voltages? I take it they're electronic, I can't begin to imagine how else that would work.

--


All gfci breakers or receptacles are electronic.
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James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 23:20:58 -0000, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:



Ralph Mowery wrote:
A sneaker way to run the 240 volt devices (you did not hear it from me)
is to find two recepticals on the different legs . YOu then run a wire
from each of the hot wires to the 240 volt device. It helps for safety
if you also run a ground wire. You do not need the neutrals if only a
240 volt device is hooked up.
If you do for some reason need a 120 volt device also, you can run the
neutral wires. As they are connected together at the breaker box, you
can use either one or both of them. Just be warned that if a single
breaker trips , the other side will still be 120 volts to ground and
neutral.


Ralph you just reminded me that about 63 years ago when I was a student
living in a dorm room at MIT. I acquired a 240 volt window air
conditioner and wanted to use it to cool our toom. It turned out the
wall outlets in the room next to ours were on the other side of the 240
volt line so we ran a single wire out our window and into the window in
the next room. Presto, problem solved.

The next year I moved out of the dorm and rented an apartment across the
Charles river in Boston. Shortly after I hauled my stuff over there
guess what? I found out that building was one of many there still on DC
power and none of my beloved stereo equipment would work. I managed to
talk my way out of the lease because of that and found another place
that had already moved to AC power.

Lots of other funny things happened back then, like I went to try phone
sex but found out the holes in the dial were too small. G


Direct current? Oh my god how old are you?!


Go to this page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of...t_DC_system s


Where you will find this:

Remnant and existent DC systems

Some cities continued to use DC well into the 20th century. For example,
central Helsinki had a DC network until the late 1940s, and Stockholm
lost its dwindling DC network as late as the 1970s. A mercury-arc valve
rectifier station could convert AC to DC where networks were still used.
Parts of Boston, Massachusetts along Beacon Street and Commonwealth
Avenue still used 110 volts DC in the 1960s, causing the destruction of
many small appliances (typically hair dryers and phonographs) used by
Boston University students, who ignored warnings about the electricity
supply.

See?

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.
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Default Gay ****** Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL), the Sociopathic Attention Whore

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 20:31:08 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:


I've never really thought


Truer words you never said, you abysmally stupid gay ******!

--
More from gay ****** Birdbrain's strange sociopathic world:
"If people don't like seeing other people the way they were born, there's
something seriously wrong with them. In the UK I'm free to walk around
naked in public, and I often do. I walk up mountains starkers. People
laugh, gasp, and make rude comments, but I just tell them to grow up."
MID:
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On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 21:40:05 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

I suspect you'll prolly have to give jws another hint.


I doubt it, my degree involves Maths.



"Degree", "maths", Birdbrain? LOL You mean this kind of "maths", you
abysmally stupid sociopathic cretin?:

Some examples of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) sociopathic
"mathematics":

"100 is 5 times more than 20.
"5 times less" is the opposite of "5 times more", so this makes 100 back to
20 again.
20 is 5 times less than 100, the same as dividing by 5.
An elephant is 5 times bigger than a tiger, a tiger is 5 times smaller than
an elephant."
MID:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm comparing being able to tell the difference between 21 and 12 to being
able to tell the difference between 21 and 12. If you think that it's easy
to think a 12 year old is 21, it's only fair to use it as a reason when you
get caught ****ing a 12 year old, which you mistook to be 21."
MID:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"50 watts is ten times more than 5 watts. Likewise 5 watts is ten times
less than 50 watts."
MID:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The answer is 9. The 0.5 chicken is dead, so basically it's 1 chicken
laying 1 egg per day. The half egg was one halfway out, the only egg for
that day."
MID:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"let's say you prefer 20C water. If you go in 10C water you'd say that was
cold (10C colder than you want). Now you go in 0C water, that's twice as
cold, because it's now 20C colder than you want."
MID:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Even if only 25% of people want it legalised, and let's say LibDems already
have 15% of the vote. If 75% of that 15% stop voting for them because they
don't want it legalised, they're down to 3.75%. But 25% of the 85% who
didn't previously vote for them, change their mind due to this policy, they
gain 21.25%, giving them a total of 25%, well up from 15%."
MID:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If I say 1, then "or so", the "or so" means another 1.
If I say 5, then "or so", the "or so" means up to another 5.
Is English not your first language?"
MID:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you live for 4 years and die, you wasted 4 years. If you live for 20
years and die, you wasted 20 years, that's 5 times worse."
MID:
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Default Gay ****** Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL), the Sociopathic Attention Whore

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 21:43:40 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:



See?


I wasn't aware quite how third world the USA was.


He's not aware yet what kind of an idiot you are, Birdbrain! But he soon
will be! LOL


Gay ****** Birdbrain on Women:

--
Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) about women:
"I don't want one. Easy enough to get one if I wanted one."
MID:

--
Gay ****** Birdbrain about women:
"I don't want one, they're nothing but a nuisance."
MID:

--
More of ****** Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) strange world:
"Women should learn to enjoy sex.."
MID:

--
More from Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) strange sociopathic
world:
"...men are superior, so a woman dressed as a man looks better, not worse."
MID:

--
Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) sociopathic "mind" at work:
"Satan is god's wife. Woman are evil."
MID:

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) "deep thinking":
"A woman should never be allowed to operate anything technical."
MID:

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) deep thinking:
"Looking at a woman the wrong way is now illegal. Raising your eyebrow at an
inappropriate time gets you a jail term. At this rate there won't be any
kids being born soon."


--
Gay ****** Birdbrain about women:
"99% of females are not worth having."
MID:


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Default US 220V 20A TO CHINA 220V 10A MAHJONG MACHINE

On 2/16/2018 1:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Electronically, no.* But using simple coils and magnets which the originals did, subtracting x from y is simple, but when there's 3, how the **** do you do that?* Especially as you have one hot leg at opposite phase to the other.


It's single phase.
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On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 3:31:12 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 02:00:23 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 4:00:42 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 20:58:51 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 2:09:41 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 01:03:22 -0000, Frank "frank wrote:

On 2/14/2018 7:42 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 21:02:07 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 2:38:30 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 12:23:37 PM UTC-5, Pat L wrote:
I bought two mahjong machines in China to use in the US but I
forgot they use 220 over there. So I want to install a US 220V 20A
female receptor by using two legs of 110V 15A circuits and mounting a
box next to one of my 110v outlets. That done I want to convert that
over to 220V, neutral, & ground to run my machines.

The cord into the machine has "L" "N" and "gnd". I want to combine
the two 110 legs to one 220 leg.

I know that there are converter that will convert 110V to 220V but
I am afraid the 15A circuits can not handle the machines. Anyone out
there really know what I can do or buy to make this happen?

First, if you are in the USA it's 240v, so let's assume the machine
is ok with that. You can't put a 20a receptacle on a 15a circuit, ie
a circuit with a 15a breaker and 14g wire. Looks like your only
option is a new 240v circuit.


Let's try again. I saw where you said you wanted to put in a 20A
receptacle.
But the machine only needs 10A. So, you could use a 240V 15A receptacle.
The rest of what you're trying to do gets more dicely. As I
understand it,
you want to take two existing branch circuits that are on separate
breakers,
15A?, and turn them into an Edison circuit/shared neutral circuit that
still powers the existing two circuits plus the added 240V 15A
receptacle.
You'd have to replace the two breakers with a single double pole 15A
breaker.
Then the physics and basic safety work, but you still have other
potential
issues:

Are 240V and 120V receptacles permitted on the same circuit? I don't
know of any code provision that says no.

You'd have to make sure there aren't any other code issues with
converting
this into a shared neutral circuit.

Being in the UK I'm not sure how this works in the US. But before those
namby pamby circuit breakers, you just had -110V, 0V, +110V. You could
take 110V from either of the 0V and 110V wires, or 220V from the two
110V wires. Do the circuit breakers think there's an earth fault if you
try to run a 220V device off two 110V wires? I thought an American
circuit was paired - i.e. the two 110V lines were linked and run off a
dual breaker which would accept a 220V device?


We also have 220 outlets. Think I only have one for clothes dryer but
at least well and electric stove are 220.

But what I'm interested in is do you ever have 220V devices connected to the same +/-110V wires as 110V devices, off the same breaker? If so, how does this breaker cope with THREE possible current flows?

I haven't seen 240V and 120V receptacles on the same circuit. I would
think mostly that's due to the fact that there is no need for it, eg
dryers, stoves are dedicated circuits. But IDK of any code provision
that prohibits it, nor is there any obvious safety issue. The breaker
deals with it by doing what breakers do, limiting the current to the
breaker rating.

I'm talking about EARTH LEAKAGE breakers.

--
CONGRESS.SYS corrupted... Re-boot Washington D.C. (Y/N)?


A 240v gfci breaker with neutral provides ground fault protection just like any other gfci. It sums the current in all 3 conductors. You can have both 120v and 240v loads.


I've never really thought about it, but without some complicated electronics in there, how can it sum three things?

-


Just stop already, you're in way over your head.
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On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:40:58 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:31:04 -0000, Dev Null wrote:

On 2/16/2018 1:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Electronically, no. But using simple coils and magnets which the originals did, subtracting x from y is simple, but when there's 3, how the **** do you do that? Especially as you have one hot leg at opposite phase to the other.


It's single phase.


No, one hot is opposite (180 degrees out) from the other. It makes measuring things complicated.

--


Only to clueless morons. The fact that double pole gfci breakers with neutral are widely available proves you're wrong.
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On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:52:16 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:40:58 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:31:04 -0000, Dev Null wrote:

On 2/16/2018 1:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Electronically, no. But using simple coils and magnets which the originals did, subtracting x from y is simple, but when there's 3, how the **** do you do that? Especially as you have one hot leg at opposite phase to the other.

It's single phase.


No, one hot is opposite (180 degrees out) from the other. It makes measuring things complicated.

--


Only to clueless morons. The fact that double pole gfci breakers with neutral are widely available proves you're wrong.


Giggles.... Traitor_4ever calling someone a clueless moron. LMAO. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Amused Monster
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On 02/16/2018 07:40 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:31:04 -0000, Dev Null wrote:

On 2/16/2018 1:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Electronically, no.* But using simple coils and magnets which the originals did, subtracting x from y is simple, but when there's 3, how the **** do you do that? Especially as you have one hot leg at opposite phase to the other.


It's single phase.


No, one hot is opposite (180 degrees out) from the other.* It makes measuring things complicated.

It's single phase. Think about it, the flow is either from** L1 to L2** or** L2 to L1



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On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:40:58 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:31:04 -0000, Dev Null wrote:

On 2/16/2018 1:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Electronically, no. But using simple coils and magnets which the originals did, subtracting x from y is simple, but when there's 3, how the **** do you do that? Especially as you have one hot leg at opposite phase to the other.


It's single phase.


No, one hot is opposite (180 degrees out) from the other. It makes measuring things complicated.

--


Only to those that don't understand basic principles, ie Kirchhoff's current law.
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This is an interesting gadget. Basically it shuffles mahjong tiles (like big heavy dominos) and deals them to four players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMT6s7g-k-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lLlvl-ieKo

I'm not seeing any reason for 10 A of 220V power. Certainly not for the turntable that shuffles. There are also some linear pushers to line the tiles up, I don't know how much that would take.

I'm assuming the magnets that set the tiles right side up are permanent and not electromagnets, which would change my guess.
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On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 20:31:08 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 02:00:23 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 4:00:42 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 20:58:51 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 2:09:41 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 01:03:22 -0000, Frank "frank wrote:

On 2/14/2018 7:42 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 21:02:07 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 2:38:30 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 12:23:37 PM UTC-5, Pat L wrote:
I bought two mahjong machines in China to use in the US but I
forgot they use 220 over there. So I want to install a US 220V 20A
female receptor by using two legs of 110V 15A circuits and mounting a
box next to one of my 110v outlets. That done I want to convert that
over to 220V, neutral, & ground to run my machines.

The cord into the machine has "L" "N" and "gnd". I want to combine
the two 110 legs to one 220 leg.

I know that there are converter that will convert 110V to 220V but
I am afraid the 15A circuits can not handle the machines. Anyone out
there really know what I can do or buy to make this happen?

First, if you are in the USA it's 240v, so let's assume the machine
is ok with that. You can't put a 20a receptacle on a 15a circuit, ie
a circuit with a 15a breaker and 14g wire. Looks like your only
option is a new 240v circuit.


Let's try again. I saw where you said you wanted to put in a 20A
receptacle.
But the machine only needs 10A. So, you could use a 240V 15A receptacle.
The rest of what you're trying to do gets more dicely. As I
understand it,
you want to take two existing branch circuits that are on separate
breakers,
15A?, and turn them into an Edison circuit/shared neutral circuit that
still powers the existing two circuits plus the added 240V 15A
receptacle.
You'd have to replace the two breakers with a single double pole 15A
breaker.
Then the physics and basic safety work, but you still have other
potential
issues:

Are 240V and 120V receptacles permitted on the same circuit? I don't
know of any code provision that says no.

You'd have to make sure there aren't any other code issues with
converting
this into a shared neutral circuit.

Being in the UK I'm not sure how this works in the US. But before those
namby pamby circuit breakers, you just had -110V, 0V, +110V. You could
take 110V from either of the 0V and 110V wires, or 220V from the two
110V wires. Do the circuit breakers think there's an earth fault if you
try to run a 220V device off two 110V wires? I thought an American
circuit was paired - i.e. the two 110V lines were linked and run off a
dual breaker which would accept a 220V device?


We also have 220 outlets. Think I only have one for clothes dryer but
at least well and electric stove are 220.

But what I'm interested in is do you ever have 220V devices connected to the same +/-110V wires as 110V devices, off the same breaker? If so, how does this breaker cope with THREE possible current flows?

I haven't seen 240V and 120V receptacles on the same circuit. I would
think mostly that's due to the fact that there is no need for it, eg
dryers, stoves are dedicated circuits. But IDK of any code provision
that prohibits it, nor is there any obvious safety issue. The breaker
deals with it by doing what breakers do, limiting the current to the
breaker rating.

I'm talking about EARTH LEAKAGE breakers.

--
CONGRESS.SYS corrupted... Re-boot Washington D.C. (Y/N)?


A 240v gfci breaker with neutral provides ground fault protection just like any other gfci. It sums the current in all 3 conductors. You can have both 120v and 240v loads.


I've never really thought about it, but without some complicated electronics in there, how can it sum three things?


It is all done by how they wind a small toroid transformer. The
currents null each other out unless some is going somewhere other than
through that transformer. Then an OP amp samples that current and
fires a solenoid that trips the breaker.
This is a GFCI breaker.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/GFCI.jpg
On a 120/240 there will just be two stacked with an extra winding in
the transformer for the neutral.
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Default US 220V 20A TO CHINA 220V 10A MAHJONG MACHINE

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:40:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:31:04 -0000, Dev Null wrote:

On 2/16/2018 1:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Electronically, no. But using simple coils and magnets which the originals did, subtracting x from y is simple, but when there's 3, how the **** do you do that? Especially as you have one hot leg at opposite phase to the other.


It's single phase.


No, one hot is opposite (180 degrees out) from the other. It makes measuring things complicated.


Not particularly. The line to line will get measured just like any
other single phase and the neutral current will get subtracted from
any imbalance.
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On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 4:44:56 PM UTC-6, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 22:36:52 -0000, gfretwell@... wrote:

That is why a 120/240v GFCI costs about 3x what a 120v one costs.


Our system is so much simpler. There really is no reason to have
110V equipment.


The typical home only needs 240V for a few high-power items, so why
wire the whole house for an unnecessary voltage? Adding a center-tap
to a transformer is cheap. Rare to need portable 240V items where
GFCI would be important.


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On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 11:23:37 AM UTC-6, Pat L wrote:
I bought two mahjong machines in China to use in the US but I forgot
they use 220 over there. So I want to install a US 220V 20A female
receptor by using two legs of 110V 15A circuits and mounting a box
next to one of my 110v outlets.


No. Have an electrician run a new 240VAC line from your circuit
breaker box to an appropriate outlet. Of course USA power is 240V
60Hz rather than Chinese 220V 50Hz so you will need to check the
power specifications on your machine. An auto-transformer could be
used to reduce the voltage. You cannot safely connect out-of-phase
outlet circuits to be used together as you propose because of the
resulting short-circuit behavior.
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Default US 220V 20A TO CHINA 220V 10A MAHJONG MACHINE

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 2:22:46 PM UTC-5, Davej wrote:
On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 11:23:37 AM UTC-6, Pat L wrote:
I bought two mahjong machines in China to use in the US but I forgot
they use 220 over there. So I want to install a US 220V 20A female
receptor by using two legs of 110V 15A circuits and mounting a box
next to one of my 110v outlets.


No. Have an electrician run a new 240VAC line from your circuit
breaker box to an appropriate outlet. Of course USA power is 240V
60Hz rather than Chinese 220V 50Hz so you will need to check the
power specifications on your machine. An auto-transformer could be
used to reduce the voltage. You cannot safely connect out-of-phase
outlet circuits to be used together as you propose because of the
resulting short-circuit behavior.


Which is ridiculous because there is no short circuiting behavior. The op could do what they proposed and get 240v from two circuits on different legs. It would work, but I don't see a code compliant way.
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On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 1:30:27 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 2:22:46 PM UTC-5, Davej wrote:
On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 11:23:37 AM UTC-6, Pat L wrote:
I bought two mahjong machines in China to use in the US but I forgot
they use 220 over there. So I want to install a US 220V 20A female
receptor by using two legs of 110V 15A circuits and mounting a box
next to one of my 110v outlets.


No. Have an electrician run a new 240VAC line from your circuit
breaker box to an appropriate outlet. Of course USA power is 240V
60Hz rather than Chinese 220V 50Hz so you will need to check the
power specifications on your machine. An auto-transformer could be
used to reduce the voltage. You cannot safely connect out-of-phase
outlet circuits to be used together as you propose because of the
resulting short-circuit behavior.


Which is ridiculous because there is no short circuiting behavior. The
op could do what they proposed and get 240v from two circuits on
different legs. It would work, but I don't see a code compliant way.


You want a single wire bundle to come from the breaker box to the
240V outlet. You do not want to create some absurd inductive loop by
connecting two phases routed from different wired circuits. Added
inductance can reduce the reliability of short-circuit breaker
action. Also you want to use a 2-pole 240V breaker that will trip
both legs.
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Default Gay ****** Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL), the Sociopathic Attention Whore

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 22:47:10 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:


Left wingers don't have brains, but they do have a disease whereby they
see everyone else as wrong.


That's obviously the VERY disease YOU keep suffering from, Birdbrain, you
projecting sociopathic sow!

--
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babble:
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animal. Does your digestive system lack this ability?"
MID:

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"99% of people are thick, ignorant, or just plain stupid."
MID:

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"Americans can't speak English."
Message-ID:

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More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL), the village idiot's,
sick drivel:
"I have 10 times more common sense than most."
Message-ID:
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Default US 220V 20A TO CHINA 220V 10A MAHJONG MACHINE

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 11:30:22 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 2:22:46 PM UTC-5, Davej wrote:
On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 11:23:37 AM UTC-6, Pat L wrote:
I bought two mahjong machines in China to use in the US but I forgot
they use 220 over there. So I want to install a US 220V 20A female
receptor by using two legs of 110V 15A circuits and mounting a box
next to one of my 110v outlets.


No. Have an electrician run a new 240VAC line from your circuit
breaker box to an appropriate outlet. Of course USA power is 240V
60Hz rather than Chinese 220V 50Hz so you will need to check the
power specifications on your machine. An auto-transformer could be
used to reduce the voltage. You cannot safely connect out-of-phase
outlet circuits to be used together as you propose because of the
resulting short-circuit behavior.


Which is ridiculous because there is no short circuiting behavior. The op could do what they proposed and get 240v from two circuits on different legs. It would work, but I don't see a code compliant way.


The two biggest issues is the need for a 2 pole breaker for this and
the fact that they need to be grouped in the same raceway or cable.
If he can meet those 2 requirements this is probably going to be
legal.
One place I would start looking in old work would be for a multiwire
circuit, usually serving loads at the far end of the house like a
couple of bedrooms. These typically split out in a ceiling box in one
of them. If you can hit that with a 3 wire cable or even commandeer a
2 wire cable that you don't need for 120v you might be good to go.


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Default US 220V 20A TO CHINA 220V 10A MAHJONG MACHINE

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 5:28:08 PM UTC-5, Davej wrote:
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 1:30:27 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 2:22:46 PM UTC-5, Davej wrote:
On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 11:23:37 AM UTC-6, Pat L wrote:
I bought two mahjong machines in China to use in the US but I forgot
they use 220 over there. So I want to install a US 220V 20A female
receptor by using two legs of 110V 15A circuits and mounting a box
next to one of my 110v outlets.


No. Have an electrician run a new 240VAC line from your circuit
breaker box to an appropriate outlet. Of course USA power is 240V
60Hz rather than Chinese 220V 50Hz so you will need to check the
power specifications on your machine. An auto-transformer could be
used to reduce the voltage. You cannot safely connect out-of-phase
outlet circuits to be used together as you propose because of the
resulting short-circuit behavior.


Which is ridiculous because there is no short circuiting behavior. The
op could do what they proposed and get 240v from two circuits on
different legs. It would work, but I don't see a code compliant way.


You want a single wire bundle to come from the breaker box to the
240V outlet. You do not want to create some absurd inductive loop by
connecting two phases routed from different wired circuits. Added
inductance can reduce the reliability of short-circuit breaker
action. Also you want to use a 2-pole 240V breaker that will trip
both legs.


You would not be creating an absurd inductive loop or a breaker that
will not open if it shorts. I agree there are code issues and I
pointed that out from the start. There are two separate issues here.
The OP proposed using converting two separate circuits to a shared
neutral circuit. The issue are -

1 - Will it work electrically?

2 - Can it be done in a code compliant manner.

I said from the start that, yes it will work and there is no inherent
safety issue provided a double pole breaker is used. On the other
hand there have been posters claiming it will arc, short, you can't
get 240V that way, the appliance won't work, etc. That is just flat
out wrong.

And I said from the beginning that I don't see a code compliant way to
do it, the code issue being that not all the conductors would be in
the same cable. And that is to minimize inductive heating in metal
raceways as well as what I would say is good practice to keep things
in a logical grouping.
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Default US 220V 20A TO CHINA 220V 10A MAHJONG MACHINE

trader_4 wrote:

AC isn't
consistent polarity in the positive/negative sense. It changes. In
the case of the states, roughly 60 times a second.


I don't think it is "roughly". AC powered clocks keep very good time for
long periods. Though I have heard that sometimes the power generating
companies keep track of how many cycles have taken place over some fixed
period of time and slow down or speed up the generators to correct things.

Jeff
--
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(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.
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On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 4:47:16 PM UTC-6, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 02:20:35 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:52:16 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:40:58 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:31:04 -0000, Dev Null wrote:

On 2/16/2018 1:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Electronically, no. But using simple coils and magnets which the originals did, subtracting x from y is simple, but when there's 3, how the **** do you do that? Especially as you have one hot leg at opposite phase to the other.

It's single phase.

No, one hot is opposite (180 degrees out) from the other. It makes measuring things complicated.
--
Only to clueless morons. The fact that double pole gfci breakers with neutral are widely available proves you're wrong.


Giggles.... Traitor_4ever calling someone a clueless moron. LMAO. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Amused Monster


Left wingers don't have brains, but they do have a disease whereby they see everyone else as wrong.
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On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 8:31:40 PM UTC-5, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

AC isn't
consistent polarity in the positive/negative sense. It changes. In
the case of the states, roughly 60 times a second.


I don't think it is "roughly". AC powered clocks keep very good time for
long periods. Though I have heard that sometimes the power generating
companies keep track of how many cycles have taken place over some fixed
period of time and slow down or speed up the generators to correct things.

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.


There was an episode of Superman where some criminal was holed up in
some structure made of kryptonite or something that Superman could not
penetrate to get him. The statute of limitation for his crime was
approaching in a few days and he was waiting it out. So, superman got
the power company to up the freq from 60hz so his clock would run faster
and he's think the time limit had been hit and would come out. It worked.

Brass Rat 78 6-1 here

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On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:31:32 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

trader_4 wrote:

AC isn't
consistent polarity in the positive/negative sense. It changes. In
the case of the states, roughly 60 times a second.


I don't think it is "roughly". AC powered clocks keep very good time for
long periods. Though I have heard that sometimes the power generating
companies keep track of how many cycles have taken place over some fixed
period of time and slow down or speed up the generators to correct things.

Jeff


The grid depends on the frequency being the same throughout the grid
and it will self correct if they don't do it.
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On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 10:19:21 AM UTC-6, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 03:53:54 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:

It is sort of roughly 60 Hz. The power company has at times slowed the
frequency some ( maybe 1/2 or 1 Hz) during peak power loads. They will
then raise it a small amount during lower loads to keep an average over
a long period of time. This keeps all the line powered clocks very close
over a period of time.


Surely nobody uses clocks like that anymore.


It makes no sense to use that approach anymore. Quartz crystal clocks
are more accurate, and anything with access to GPS, cell service, or
the internet can be even more accurate.
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On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 16:51:07 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Indeed, if it's electronic you might aswell use the radio signal


For some reason we don't get WWV (or whatever that radio signal is
these days) down here. I have never had a radio backed up clock that
worked worth a damn.
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On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 09:23:19 -0800 (PST), Davej
wrote:

Quartz crystal clocks
are more accurate


More accurate than the grid? Not really. Just more reliable.
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On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 12:23:31 PM UTC-5, Davej wrote:
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 10:19:21 AM UTC-6, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 03:53:54 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:

It is sort of roughly 60 Hz. The power company has at times slowed the
frequency some ( maybe 1/2 or 1 Hz) during peak power loads. They will
then raise it a small amount during lower loads to keep an average over
a long period of time. This keeps all the line powered clocks very close
over a period of time.


Surely nobody uses clocks like that anymore.


It makes no sense to use that approach anymore. Quartz crystal clocks
are more accurate,


Not in my experience. The old clocks with synchronous motors were locked
to the line freq and the utilites made sure it was 60 hz, correcting
very slightly over time so that over any extended period it is exactly 60hz.
In the old days we had those clocks running and they were spot on, never
needed to be adjusted. New
digital clocks, I see variation. It's not a lot, but it's there.
My thermostat clock for example, will drift off by a couple mins in a year
because crystals have limited accuracy and there is no human correction
applied.

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trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 11:19:21 AM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 03:53:54 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article ,
says...

trader_4 wrote:

AC isn't
consistent polarity in the positive/negative sense. It changes. In
the case of the states, roughly 60 times a second.

I don't think it is "roughly". AC powered clocks keep very good time for
long periods. Though I have heard that sometimes the power generating
companies keep track of how many cycles have taken place over some fixed
period of time and slow down or speed up the generators to correct things.

Jeff

It is sort of roughly 60 Hz. The power company has at times slowed the
frequency some ( maybe 1/2 or 1 Hz) during peak power loads. They will
then raise it a small ammount during lower loads to keep an average over
a long period of time. This keeps all the line powered clocks very close
over a period of time.


Surely nobody uses clocks like that anymore.


The old ones were synched by virtue of the motor. But there is no reason
some new clocks that are AC powered and digital could not use the AC
freq as a reference to keep the clock always synched. IDK if any do it.
There are also clocks now that use the National Stds Bureau atomic clock
to stay synched. They put out a radio broadcast with the time info
encoded.

I wish whoever designed the clock in my 2016 Jeep Compass had used a
crystal in it. The damn thing loses about 30 seconds a day and I have to
reset it every couple of weeks just because that slowdown annoys me.

Jeff

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The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.
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On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 12:38:10 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 16:51:07 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Indeed, if it's electronic you might aswell use the radio signal


For some reason we don't get WWV (or whatever that radio signal is
these days) down here. I have never had a radio backed up clock that
worked worth a damn.


It's one of the useless govt programs, so Trump probably turned it off.
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