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Default Is there a database online for the number of shop hours a car repair should take?

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?
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Frank S wrote:
I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


You might try:
http://www.napaautocare.com/Estimato...r p_zc=72210#
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On 12/10/2017 1:44 PM, Ken wrote:
Frank S wrote:
I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


You might try:
http://www.napaautocare.com/Estimato...r p_zc=72210#


Try Chilton manuals
, Used to be our source waybackwhen.

Rene
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Frank S wrote:
I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.


It's published by Chilton's. It costs money. You can probably find it
at your local library if you have a good public library with a good set
of Chilton's. If you ask nicely, your mechanic might let you look at it.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.


Not everybody does. Some do. And then there is that car with the rust
problem where every job takes twice as long as the book says.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Is there a database online for the number of shop hours a car repair should take?

In article ,
says...

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.

Next new car I buy will be partially determined by my negotiating legal
requirement by them about markup on parts (100% no way), cost of repair
and labor. they pay the mechanic approx. $25 Hr yet charges over $125
locally here. We are paying so management can drive a free car and owner
can generate equity in his company. neither of which makes the car any
better, e.g. last longer with fewer repairs required during it's
lifespan, for me.

Work at a dealer, you are not welcome in my house.


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Default Is there a database online for the number of shop hours a carrepair should take?

On Sunday, December 10, 2017 at 1:45:02 PM UTC-6, Ken wrote:

You might try:
http://www.napaautocare.com/Estimato...r p_zc=72210#


Thanks Ken!

I had a the motor for my drivers side electric window replaced
about 6 weeks ago. I checked the price they charged against
this site and it was spot on!

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Default Is there a database online for the number of shop hours a carrepair should take?

On 12/10/2017 5:17 PM, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.

Next new car I buy will be partially determined by my negotiating legal
requirement by them about markup on parts (100% no way), cost of repair
and labor. they pay the mechanic approx. $25 Hr yet charges over $125
locally here. We are paying so management can drive a free car and owner
can generate equity in his company. neither of which makes the car any
better, e.g. last longer with fewer repairs required during it's
lifespan, for me.

Work at a dealer, you are not welcome in my house.


Besides the mechanic's pay rate, add in employer matching
taxes, fees, licenses, inspections, insurance, rent,
property tax, supplies, fixtures, advertising and so on.

Also, rate books show expected typical time for the job.
Your local shop multiplies that time estimate by their
billing rate, that is, Chilton's doesn't express a value for
dollars, just time.

You may well be overcharged sometimes, but mechanic's pay is
hardly the biggest part of shop expense.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


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Default Is there a database online for the number of shop hours a carrepair should take?

On 12/10/2017 6:17 PM, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.


The Flat Rte manual gives time, not dollars so it is valid anywhere.
Most mechanics can beat the times, especially the second time they do
the job and yes, many shops pay that rate no matter how long it takes.



What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.


Correct in most cases. If replacing a timing belt there us usually an
add on for the water pump at the same time though.



Next new car I buy will be partially determined by my negotiating legal
requirement by them about markup on parts (100% no way), cost of repair
and labor. they pay the mechanic approx. $25 Hr yet charges over $125
locally here. We are paying so management can drive a free car and owner
can generate equity in his company. neither of which makes the car any
better, e.g. last longer with fewer repairs required during it's
lifespan, for me.


Good luck with that. A good mechanic is making more than $25. Sure the
dealer is making a nice profit but you have no clue what it costs to
operate a shop.

Work at a dealer, you are not welcome in my house.

I'd not want to spend time with anyone with your attitude anyway even
though I never worked for a dealer. Without the employees you'd not be
able to by a car and get it serviced yet you refuse to socialize with
the guy that washes the car or cleans the bathrooms.
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Default Is there a database online for the number of shop hours a car repair should take?

On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:17:24 -0400, pjp
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.


Pure "flat rate" you get paid the labout units in the book - period.
You wiun some, you lose some. A good mechanic, over-all, wins more
than he loses.

Next new car I buy will be partially determined by my negotiating legal
requirement by them about markup on parts (100% no way), cost of repair
and labor. they pay the mechanic approx. $25 Hr yet charges over $125
locally here


You are paying the property taxes, the heat, the administration
staff, the wear and tear on the hoists and compressors, and a "fair
return on investment".

SOMETIMES the return on investment is a bit excessive - but you can't
run a shop on a 100% markup on labour. Might work where you can work
outsideall year, possibly under a sun-shade, with no heat, AC, etc. -
but not many places like that exist. OVERHEAD on an equipped shop is
HIGH.

. We are paying so management can drive a free car and owner
can generate equity in his company. neither of which makes the car any
better, e.g. last longer with fewer repairs required during it's
lifespan, for me.

Work at a dealer, you are not welcome in my house.



That's too bad - because the guy whopworks at a dealership can be a
good friend to have.
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Default Is there a database online for the number of shop hours a car repair should take?

On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:20:03 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2017 5:17 PM, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.

Next new car I buy will be partially determined by my negotiating legal
requirement by them about markup on parts (100% no way), cost of repair
and labor. they pay the mechanic approx. $25 Hr yet charges over $125
locally here. We are paying so management can drive a free car and owner
can generate equity in his company. neither of which makes the car any
better, e.g. last longer with fewer repairs required during it's
lifespan, for me.

Work at a dealer, you are not welcome in my house.


Besides the mechanic's pay rate, add in employer matching
taxes, fees, licenses, inspections, insurance, rent,
property tax, supplies, fixtures, advertising and so on.

Also, rate books show expected typical time for the job.
Your local shop multiplies that time estimate by their
billing rate, that is, Chilton's doesn't express a value for
dollars, just time.

You may well be overcharged sometimes, but mechanic's pay is
hardly the biggest part of shop expense.



There is "chilton time" and there is "factory time".

Dealers use "factory time" for most late model vehicles - and factory
time is generally pretty scimpy compared to Chiltons (or Motors, or
whatever "aftermarket" flat rates exist.)

The independents charge "chilton time"

Also, the "book time" isn't tecninally "hours" - it is "labour units"
- which compare closely to the number of hours an experienced mechanic
with the proper tools will take tio do the job, A mechanic who has
done the job many times should ALWAYS be able to do the job in fewer
actual hours - while an apprentice or mechanic unfamilliar with the
job will take more time.


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On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:46:33 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/10/2017 6:17 PM, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.


The Flat Rte manual gives time, not dollars so it is valid anywhere.
Most mechanics can beat the times, especially the second time they do
the job and yes, many shops pay that rate no matter how long it takes.



What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.


Correct in most cases. If replacing a timing belt there us usually an
add on for the water pump at the same time though.


There is a time for a water pump, and there is a time for a timing
belt - and there is an "add-on" time for common combinations. You
might see 2.6 for a water pump. and 3.3 for a timing belt - with an
"add-on" to the timing belt of .3 for the water puimp - or possibly an
extra 1.0 because to replace the timing belkt does not require opening
the cooling system, while changing the water pump does. The numbers
will often be different for w or w/o AC, ot from automatic to standard
trtans because of complications involved with the different options.

SOME shops ARE crooks and bill the full time for the timing belt plus
the full time for the water pump. But then there are plumbers and
electricians that overcharge too - not to mention Lawyers and
accountants.


Next new car I buy will be partially determined by my negotiating legal
requirement by them about markup on parts (100% no way), cost of repair
and labor. they pay the mechanic approx. $25 Hr yet charges over $125
locally here. We are paying so management can drive a free car and owner
can generate equity in his company. neither of which makes the car any
better, e.g. last longer with fewer repairs required during it's
lifespan, for me.


Good luck with that. A good mechanic is making more than $25. Sure the
dealer is making a nice profit but you have no clue what it costs to
operate a shop.

Work at a dealer, you are not welcome in my house.

I'd not want to spend time with anyone with your attitude anyway even
though I never worked for a dealer. Without the employees you'd not be
able to by a car and get it serviced yet you refuse to socialize with
the guy that washes the car or cleans the bathrooms.


There are a lot of people I choose not to spend time with - but not
based on what they do for a living or who they work for...
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Default Is there a database online for the number of shop hours a carrepair should take?

On 12/10/17 5:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/10/2017 5:17 PM, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.

Next new car I buy will be partially determined by my negotiating legal
requirement by them about markup on parts (100% no way), cost of repair
and labor. they pay the mechanic approx. $25 Hr yet charges over $125
locally here. We are paying so management can drive a free car and owner
can generate equity in his company. neither of which makes the car any
better, e.g. last longer with fewer repairs required during it's
lifespan, for me.

Work at a dealer, you are not welcome in my house.


Besides the mechanic's pay rate, add in employer matching
taxes, fees, licenses, inspections, insurance, rent,
property tax, supplies, fixtures, advertising and so on.


Environmental fees, IE vapor control, cleaning solvent replacement, shop
rags, all the other mandated regulations that must be followed.

The average person simply has no clue any more, since most never grew up
tinkering on cars in the back yard.

Also, rate books show expected typical time for the job.
Your local shop multiplies that time estimate by their
billing rate, that is, Chilton's doesn't express a value for
dollars, just time.

You may well be overcharged sometimes, but mechanic's pay is
hardly the biggest part of shop expense.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
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In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 11 Dec 2017 08:24:23 +1300, Frank S
wrote:

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.


Right.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.


That's what I've always heard. But why do you say "To be fair". Some
would say it's unfair.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.


I hadn't heard that. That would be unfairer. Not sure how often in
practice differnt tasks require the same setup work. But if you had
two problems under the dash, they might well charge the price for each,
even though they only took the radio etc. out once.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


It used to be called, at least informally, maybe formally, the Flat Rate
Manual.
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In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:17:24 -0400, pjp
wrote:

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing


I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.

Maybe he did some other looking around. I don't know and he didnt' say.

So like someone here said, he wins some, he loses some. This time he
won.

So I'm not angry, but otoh, I did go somewhere else to get my next car's
safety inspection.

But I didnt' tell him I went somewhere else and now I feel like I'm
seeing two girls at the same time.

It certainly is the closest I've come in quite a while to seeing two
girls at the same time.

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In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:04:15 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:


Besides the mechanic's pay rate, add in employer matching
taxes, fees, licenses, inspections, insurance, rent,
property tax, supplies, fixtures, advertising and so on.


Environmental fees, IE vapor control, cleaning solvent replacement, shop
rags, all the other mandated regulations that must be followed.


All that. It's not only auto shops that cost a lot to run.

The failure rate for all businesses is high, mostly because they take in
less money than they spend.

If owning a business were such a great deal, we'd all be doing it.

The average person simply has no clue any more, since most never grew up
tinkering on cars in the back yard.




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In news Ken said:

You might try:
http://www.napaautocare.com/Estimato...r p_zc=72210#


Thanks Ken,

That's a nice site which is probably what *most* people want.
a. Cost for the job
b. Cost for the part.

So I understand why that site is useful to *other* people.

But it's the exact *opposite* of what I want.
I don't want the final cost (that's easy) nor the parts cost (that's easy).

What I'm looking for is the number of hours only.
(The rest is just simple math.)
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In news Scott Dorsey said:

It's published by Chilton's. It costs money. You can probably find it
at your local library if you have a good public library with a good set
of Chilton's. If you ask nicely, your mechanic might let you look at it.


I guess that means it's not *online* then....
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In ,
pjp said:

I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.


A job takes the same amount of time in every part of the country.

I'm seeking what is hard to find - which is why I asked.
1. It's a source of TIME (not money!) time for each job
2. It's online

I know the paper books exist. It's what shops use to look the time up.
Then they simply charge the time by their shop rate.

It may not exist online - but what I'm asking for is the time.

I just want the flat rate time. Online. If it exists.
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In ,
Clare Snyder said:

There is a time for a water pump, and there is a time for a timing
belt - and there is an "add-on" time for common combinations. You
might see 2.6 for a water pump. and 3.3 for a timing belt - with an
"add-on" to the timing belt of .3 for the water puimp - or possibly an
extra 1.0 because to replace the timing belkt does not require opening
the cooling system, while changing the water pump does. The numbers
will often be different for w or w/o AC, ot from automatic to standard
trtans because of complications involved with the different options.


You seem to know more than everyone else, as this is all true.
It's complicated how any one shop charges the time.
But that's not what I'm asking.

I just want the flat rate time. Online. If it exists.

SOME shops ARE crooks and bill the full time for the timing belt plus
the full time for the water pump. But then there are plumbers and
electricians that overcharge too - not to mention Lawyers and
accountants.


Yes. I know about this where you explained it well that there is a flat
rate for the water pump, and a flat rate for the timing belt, but if you do
them both, then there are two ways to calculate the flat rate.

I just want the flat rate time. Online. If it exists.
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In news AMuzi said:

Chilton's doesn't express a value for dollars, just time.


That's *exactly* what I want.

a. Time.
b. Online.

Does it exist?


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In ,
Clare Snyder said:

There is a time for a water pump, and there is a time for a timing
belt - and there is an "add-on" time for common combinations. You
might see 2.6 for a water pump. and 3.3 for a timing belt - with an
"add-on" to the timing belt of .3 for the water puimp - or possibly an
extra 1.0 because to replace the timing belkt does not require opening
the cooling system, while changing the water pump does. The numbers
will often be different for w or w/o AC, ot from automatic to standard
trtans because of complications involved with the different options.


You seem to know more than everyone else, as this is all true.
It's complicated how any one shop charges the time.
But that's not what I'm asking.

I just want the flat rate time. Online. If it exists.

SOME shops ARE crooks and bill the full time for the timing belt plus
the full time for the water pump. But then there are plumbers and
electricians that overcharge too - not to mention Lawyers and
accountants.


Yes. I know about this where you explained it well that there is a flat
rate for the water pump, and a flat rate for the timing belt, but if you do
them both, then there are two ways to calculate the flat rate.

I just want the flat rate time. Online. If it exists.
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In ,
Clare Snyder said:

Pure "flat rate" you get paid the labout units in the book - period.
You wiun some, you lose some. A good mechanic, over-all, wins more
than he loses.


You seem to understand the flat rate the best.
The only thing I'd clarify is the "win" just means he *beat* the time.
He still gets paid what he should if he does the job in the flat rate time.

I just want the flat rate time. Online. If it exists.
(I understand that it may not exist online - that's why I asked.)
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In ,
Ed Pawlowski said:

The Flat Rte manual gives time, not dollars so it is valid anywhere.


Exactly.

Most mechanics can beat the times, especially the second time they do
the job and yes, many shops pay that rate no matter how long it takes.


Of course.

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.


Correct in most cases. If replacing a timing belt there us usually an
add on for the water pump at the same time though.


I understand that most shops just add it all up. That's OK.
I just want the flat rate time. Online. If it exists.
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In news Clare Snyder said:

There is "chilton time" and there is "factory time".


I'll take either time.

Dealers use "factory time" for most late model vehicles - and factory
time is generally pretty scimpy compared to Chiltons (or Motors, or
whatever "aftermarket" flat rates exist.)


I'll assume "factory time" is shorter than "Chilton time".

The independents charge "chilton time"


That's exactly what I'm seeking.
a. Time
b. Online

Also, the "book time" isn't tecninally "hours" - it is "labour units"
- which compare closely to the number of hours an experienced mechanic
with the proper tools will take tio do the job, A mechanic who has
done the job many times should ALWAYS be able to do the job in fewer
actual hours - while an apprentice or mechanic unfamilliar with the
job will take more time.


I'm ok with any units that equate to the time you multiply times the shop
rate.

So if it's in labor units, that's fine since that equates to average time
anyway.

But does it exist online?

I just want the flat rate time. Online. If it exists.
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In news Rene Lamontagne said:

Try Chilton manuals
, Used to be our source waybackwhen.


The original question asks for a database *online* for the shop hours for
any given job.

I know Mitchells has it in paper manuals but I'm seeking an *online*
source.

I just want the flat rate time. Online. If it exists.


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In news Ken Springer said:

Environmental fees, IE vapor control, cleaning solvent replacement, shop
rags, all the other mandated regulations that must be followed.

The average person simply has no clue any more, since most never grew up
tinkering on cars in the back yard.


I am only asking about time. Online.
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On Sunday, December 10, 2017 at 6:17:44 PM UTC-5, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.

Next new car I buy will be partially determined by my negotiating legal
requirement by them about markup on parts (100% no way), cost of repair
and labor.


Good luck with that. I'd like to be there to watch.



they pay the mechanic approx. $25 Hr yet charges over $125
locally here. We are paying so management can drive a free car and owner
can generate equity in his company. neither of which makes the car any
better, e.g. last longer with fewer repairs required during it's
lifespan, for me.

Work at a dealer, you are not welcome in my house.


I would bet that mechanics at a dealer that's charging $125 an hour
are making more than $25. Then they also have all those service advisers.
The BMW dealer here has half a dozen, at least. I'll bet they are
commission, making sure to recommend the max service possible. They
have to get paid. I'm not too happy with the rates charged by the
stealership either, but I don't see much we can do about it. I used
to use a independent decades ago, when they were substantially less
both in labor rate and parts cost. But they jacked their rates up
to with $10 of the dealer hourly rate and they put the BMW part #
on the bill, God only knows if it's a real BMW part or aftermarket.
They used to use aftermarket and charge less. I concluded that since
the indy works on all kinds of cars, but charges almost the same as
the dealer, you're better off going to the dealer. Presumably the
mechanics there see more of your particular car, have more experience,
better diagnostics, etc. If they fix it in 3 hours instead of 4 or
5 at an indy, you wind up saving money.
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On Sunday, December 10, 2017 at 10:37:38 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:17:24 -0400, pjp
wrote:

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing


I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.

Maybe he did some other looking around. I don't know and he didnt' say.

So like someone here said, he wins some, he loses some. This time he
won.

So I'm not angry, but otoh, I did go somewhere else to get my next car's
safety inspection.

But I didnt' tell him I went somewhere else and now I feel like I'm
seeing two girls at the same time.

It certainly is the closest I've come in quite a while to seeing two
girls at the same time.


What exactly is your complaint? $90 to diagnose a blown engine doesn't
sound unreasonable to me. I guess if it came in with a connecting rod
sticking out and oil pouring out, then it would be excessive. I'd do
that one for free. But otherwise, $90 seems OK to me.
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In ,
micky said:

I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.


1. All jobs have an *expected* flat rate time.
2. The flat rate time is published in a manual somewhere.
3. Every shop has access to that flat rate time manual (whether it's
Chiltons or Mitchells or All Data or the factory KSD).

Yes I am fully aware that some mechanics easily *beat* that flat rate time
and some mechanics take *longer* than that flat rate time - but the
mechanics still charge at the same flat rate time.

Yes. I am fully aware that to do a waterpump takes X flat rate time and to
do a timing belt takes Y flat rate time and do to them both does NOT take X
+ Y flat rate time.

Yes. I am fully aware that some shops still charge the X flat rate time
plus the Y flat rate time, while others charge X flat rate time plus
some-fraction-of Y flat rate time.

I'm fully aware of all this.
None of that is the question.

I wasn't aware that there is "dealer" flat rate time and "factory" flat
rate time, but that's just a complication that I can deal with depending on
what flat rate time I do find online.

What I don't know is WHERE to get the flat rate time online.
It might not exist online.

But that's why I ask.
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In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 11 Dec 2017 23:25:56 +1300, Frank S
wrote:

In ,
micky said:

I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.


1. All jobs have an *expected* flat rate time.
2. The flat rate time is published in a manual somewhere.
3. Every shop has access to that flat rate time manual (whether it's
Chiltons or Mitchells or All Data or the factory KSD).

Yes I am fully aware that some mechanics easily *beat* that flat rate time
and some mechanics take *longer* than that flat rate time - but the
mechanics still charge at the same flat rate time.

Yes. I am fully aware that to do a waterpump takes X flat rate time and to
do a timing belt takes Y flat rate time and do to them both does NOT take X
+ Y flat rate time.

Yes. I am fully aware that some shops still charge the X flat rate time
plus the Y flat rate time, while others charge X flat rate time plus
some-fraction-of Y flat rate time.

I'm fully aware of all this.
None of that is the question.

I wasn't aware that there is "dealer" flat rate time and "factory" flat
rate time, but that's just a complication that I can deal with depending on
what flat rate time I do find online.

What I don't know is WHERE to get the flat rate time online.
It might not exist online.

But that's why I ask.


Did you google flat rate manual ?

this is the 5th hit for me:
http://www.autorepairmanuals.biz/page/134522

As little as $55 if your car was made in 1977 or earlier

$112 for 2005.

Though I do wonder about this, 2005 Child Labor Guide CD-ROM
http://www.autorepairmanuals.biz/product/1401878180

In the 60's, all there was was the book, and I had no idea where to get
that, or how to pay the equivalent of $880


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In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 11 Dec 2017 02:17:50 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, December 10, 2017 at 10:37:38 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:17:24 -0400, pjp
wrote:

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing


I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.

Maybe he did some other looking around. I don't know and he didnt' say.

So like someone here said, he wins some, he loses some. This time he
won.

So I'm not angry, but otoh, I did go somewhere else to get my next car's
safety inspection.

But I didnt' tell him I went somewhere else and now I feel like I'm
seeing two girls at the same time.

It certainly is the closest I've come in quite a while to seeing two
girls at the same time.


What exactly is your complaint?


I said what I was talking about, that since they've heard the noise
before, it probably only took a minute, maybe 10, to diagnose the car.
When I asked for details, they said "There's something broken inside the
engine. It would cost money to find out what."

$90 to diagnose a blown engine doesn't
sound unreasonable to me. I guess if it came in with a connecting rod
sticking out and oil pouring out, then it would be excessive. I'd do
that one for free. But otherwise, $90 seems OK to me.


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In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 11 Dec 2017 02:14:09 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, December 10, 2017 at 6:17:44 PM UTC-5, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?


I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.

Next new car I buy will be partially determined by my negotiating legal
requirement by them about markup on parts (100% no way), cost of repair
and labor.


Good luck with that. I'd like to be there to watch.


Me too.



they pay the mechanic approx. $25 Hr yet charges over $125
locally here. We are paying so management can drive a free car and owner
can generate equity in his company. neither of which makes the car any
better, e.g. last longer with fewer repairs required during it's
lifespan, for me.

Work at a dealer, you are not welcome in my house.


I would bet that mechanics at a dealer that's charging $125 an hour
are making more than $25. Then they also have all those service advisers.
The BMW dealer here has half a dozen, at least. I'll bet they are
commission, making sure to recommend the max service possible. They
have to get paid. I'm not too happy with the rates charged by the
stealership either, but I don't see much we can do about it. I used
to use a independent decades ago, when they were substantially less
both in labor rate and parts cost. But they jacked their rates up
to with $10 of the dealer hourly rate and they put the BMW part #
on the bill, God only knows if it's a real BMW part or aftermarket.
They used to use aftermarket and charge less. I concluded that since
the indy works on all kinds of cars, but charges almost the same as
the dealer, you're better off going to the dealer. Presumably the
mechanics there see more of your particular car, have more experience,
better diagnostics, etc. If they fix it in 3 hours instead of 4 or
5 at an indy, you wind up saving money.


But I thought both used the flat rate manual and both charged the same
number of hours.

Anyhow, 2 years ago after I replaced the right half-axle, right ball
joint, right rotor, and one other part, I took the car to the dealer for
wheel alignment, on the theory he could do the best job. He even had an
offer that made him as cheap as Firestone. (That alone should have made
me suspicious.) They told me that I needed right and left CV boots,
even though the right boot had only 50 miles on it, and the left boot
was perfect too. They said I had a major oil leak, even though I didn't
have to add any oil in the next 3000 miles. And they told me a bunch of
other crap they claimed needed repair.

While most shops have "insurance" rules that you're not allowed where
the cars are fixed, they still let you in, show you the problem on the
car, before it's fixed. But the dealer makes you park the car in one
place and they drive it 80 yards to another place with 30 bays. No way
to see your own car or even talk to the actual mechanic. Instead they
have some pretty girl dispense the crap, so if she can be proven wrong,
she can say she misunderstood the mechanic. What a racket.

That was my first time at a dealer and I'm never going again.
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On 12/10/2017 10:04 PM, Ken Springer wrote:


Besides the mechanic's pay rate, add in employer matching
taxes, fees, licenses, inspections, insurance, rent,
property tax, supplies, fixtures, advertising and so on.


Environmental fees, IE vapor control, cleaning solvent replacement, shop
rags, all the other mandated regulations that must be followed.

The average person simply has no clue any more, since most never grew up
tinkering on cars in the back yard.


Those charges **** me off. Sure, they are real costs but so is
insurance, lighting, the water bill. It should be included in the shop
rate. They don't charge me different depending on whether or not the
mechanic had to flush the toilet while working on my car.

Most dealers have those charges built in as a percentage of the charges,
not based on actual use. Give me the rags and I'll take them to dispose
of them.
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On 12/11/2017 5:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:

I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.



What exactly is your complaint? $90 to diagnose a blown engine doesn't
sound unreasonable to me. I guess if it came in with a connecting rod
sticking out and oil pouring out, then it would be excessive. I'd do
that one for free. But otherwise, $90 seems OK to me.


Maybe. The Buick dealer tried to charge me a diagnostic fee to tell me
my heated seat did not work. Hey, that's why I came here and told you
what the problem was. They just built in a 1 hour diagnostic time for
every trip in. That and other problems made it the last GM car I ever
owned.
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On 12/11/2017 4:06 AM, Frank S wrote:
In news AMuzi said:

Chilton's doesn't express a value for dollars, just time.


That's *exactly* what I want.

a. Time.
b. Online.

Does it exist?


It sure does, as others have linked. But it's a compendium
of data from Chilton's or whoever for which they
(rightfully) charge a fee.

Nothing stops you from looking at your watch, doing the job
yourself and then looking at your watch again. If you want
a more convenient answer, buy a flat-rate manual.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971




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micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:17:24 -0400, pjp
wrote:

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing


I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.


Presumably you get that $90 refunded when you get an engine rebuild, though.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Frank S wrote:
In ,
pjp said:

I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.


A job takes the same amount of time in every part of the country.


Not necessarily.
Around here, brake jobs are easy. Up in Massachusetts where they salt the
roads, brake jobs on the same cars are hellish and take far longer.

I know the paper books exist. It's what shops use to look the time up.
Then they simply charge the time by their shop rate.

It may not exist online - but what I'm asking for is the time.

I just want the flat rate time. Online. If it exists.


Chilton's might have it online, but if so it won't be free. They are not
in the business of giving information out for free.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 12/11/2017 4:25 AM, Frank S wrote:
In ,
micky said:

I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.


1. All jobs have an *expected* flat rate time.
2. The flat rate time is published in a manual somewhere.
3. Every shop has access to that flat rate time manual (whether it's
Chiltons or Mitchells or All Data or the factory KSD).

Yes I am fully aware that some mechanics easily *beat* that flat rate time
and some mechanics take *longer* than that flat rate time - but the
mechanics still charge at the same flat rate time.

Yes. I am fully aware that to do a waterpump takes X flat rate time and to
do a timing belt takes Y flat rate time and do to them both does NOT take X
+ Y flat rate time.

Yes. I am fully aware that some shops still charge the X flat rate time
plus the Y flat rate time, while others charge X flat rate time plus
some-fraction-of Y flat rate time.

I'm fully aware of all this.
None of that is the question.

I wasn't aware that there is "dealer" flat rate time and "factory" flat
rate time, but that's just a complication that I can deal with depending on
what flat rate time I do find online.

What I don't know is WHERE to get the flat rate time online.
It might not exist online.

But that's why I ask.



Here you go.

http://www.chiltonpro.com/pub/About_ChiltonPro.aspx

It will cost you and you may need Proof of Pro and login credentials.

Rene


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On Monday, December 11, 2017 at 8:28:03 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 11 Dec 2017 02:17:50 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, December 10, 2017 at 10:37:38 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:17:24 -0400, pjp
wrote:

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing

I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.

Maybe he did some other looking around. I don't know and he didnt' say.

So like someone here said, he wins some, he loses some. This time he
won.

So I'm not angry, but otoh, I did go somewhere else to get my next car's
safety inspection.

But I didnt' tell him I went somewhere else and now I feel like I'm
seeing two girls at the same time.

It certainly is the closest I've come in quite a while to seeing two
girls at the same time.


What exactly is your complaint?


I said what I was talking about, that since they've heard the noise
before,


You didn't say that here in this thread, so I didn't know. What did
they tell you about that noise prior to the failure?



it probably only took a minute, maybe 10, to diagnose the car.
When I asked for details, they said "There's something broken inside the
engine. It would cost money to find out what."


Even if it took 10 mins, there is also the overhead of taking calls
from you, scheduling it, logging it in. taking your payment.
In today's world $90 doesn't seem out of line to me. If I was
running a car repair place, that would be my min charge for a
diagnosis. I know there are places that will do an initial inspection,
estimate for free. But that doesn't make them real good guys or
the other guys villains. How about you go to the free tell you
what's wrong guy and he tells you there is $1500 worth of stuff
that must be fixed, that's either BS or marginal on an older car?




$90 to diagnose a blown engine doesn't
sound unreasonable to me. I guess if it came in with a connecting rod
sticking out and oil pouring out, then it would be excessive. I'd do
that one for free. But otherwise, $90 seems OK to me.


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On Monday, December 11, 2017 at 9:12:13 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/11/2017 5:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:

I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.



What exactly is your complaint? $90 to diagnose a blown engine doesn't
sound unreasonable to me. I guess if it came in with a connecting rod
sticking out and oil pouring out, then it would be excessive. I'd do
that one for free. But otherwise, $90 seems OK to me.


Maybe. The Buick dealer tried to charge me a diagnostic fee to tell me
my heated seat did not work. Hey, that's why I came here and told you
what the problem was. They just built in a 1 hour diagnostic time for
every trip in. That and other problems made it the last GM car I ever
owned.


What do you think the minutes incurred actually are, including you calling
up, scheduling, then rolling the car into the shop, connecting the
diagnostic cable, running the tests? Those tests typically include
disconnect the seat cable and connect test cable XYZ. What voltage does
the test software now show. If it's under 12V, do this next procedure....
And on it goes. I have the test software for BMW and that is how it.
goes. I could easily spend a half hour diagnosing, following their
procedure. Then you still have all the other overhead.

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