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Someone in a townhouse not far from here got solar panels, for free. The
electric meter is in the front and that's why they ran 1.5 or 2" conduit
up the front of the house to the roof, and put in a 3" long junction box
where the conduit had to bend almost 90^ to go on the roof.

I think it's uggggly.

What should they have done differently, even if the homeowner had to
pay?

Can conduit be painted and how long would it stay approximately the same
color? Is there any conduit or useable alternative that is already
colored? White? Brown? Mariner turquoise?

Even that wouldn't be very good but it's the easiest most obvious.

How is it properly done when put on a roof?

Down through the stack to the basement, I presume, and the electric
connections and the solar control box (2 or 3 times the size of the
meter) are put in the basement????
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On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 6:58:23 PM UTC-4, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Tue 15 Aug 2017 02:49:41p, micky told us...

Someone in a townhouse not far from here got solar panels, for
free. The electric meter is in the front and that's why they ran
1.5 or 2" conduit up the front of the house to the roof, and put
in a 3" long junction box where the conduit had to bend almost 90^
to go on the roof.

I think it's uggggly.

What should they have done differently, even if the homeowner had
to pay?

Can conduit be painted and how long would it stay approximately
the same color? Is there any conduit or useable alternative
that is already colored? White? Brown? Mariner turquoise?

Even that wouldn't be very good but it's the easiest most obvious.


How is it properly done when put on a roof?

Down through the stack to the basement, I presume, and the
electric connections and the solar control box (2 or 3 times the
size of the meter) are put in the basement????


In two instances I have used gutter downspouts to conceal (contain)
220 volt cable that was then buried to feed our hot tub. I also used
it to contain (conceal) the replacement freon lines running between
the compressor and the condensor (the original had been buried in the
poured concrete slab of the house). The downspouts were then painted
the same color as the house and barely noticieable. Besides,
downspouts look normal on a house wall, not like an ugly cable.

Since this insallation is already in place, painting the meter and
control box could also be painted.

I'm sure there could have been better alternatives, but it's too late
now.


Plus the bigger problem is solar panels themselves are ugly.
Put on the front of the house, where you can see them, they look
terrible. Elon Musk has some new ones just coming out that look
like shingles, but they are a lot more expensive so far.

You can paint PVC conduit, but it would certainly have been easier
before it was put up.
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In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Aug 2017 22:58:18 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Tue 15 Aug 2017 02:49:41p, micky told us...

Someone in a townhouse not far from here got solar panels, for
free. The electric meter is in the front and that's why they ran
1.5 or 2" conduit up the front of the house to the roof, and put
in a 3" long junction box where the conduit had to bend almost 90^
to go on the roof.

I think it's uggggly.

What should they have done differently, even if the homeowner had
to pay?

Can conduit be painted and how long would it stay approximately
the same color? Is there any conduit or useable alternative
that is already colored? White? Brown? Mariner turquoise?

Even that wouldn't be very good but it's the easiest most obvious.


How is it properly done when put on a roof?

Down through the stack to the basement, I presume, and the
electric connections and the solar control box (2 or 3 times the
size of the meter) are put in the basement????


In two instances I have used gutter downspouts to conceal (contain)


So you mean put the cable inside the downspout! I thought he just
meant put the conduit in the corner between the downspout and tthe
wall??

220 volt cable that was then buried to feed our hot tub.


Was it an actual downspout with water in it when it rained?

I also used
it to contain (conceal) the replacement freon lines running between
the compressor and the condensor (the original had been buried in the
poured concrete slab of the house). The downspouts were then painted
the same color as the house and barely noticieable. Besides,
downspouts look normal on a house wall, not like an ugly cable.

Since this insallation is already in place, painting the meter and
control box could also be painted.


Actually those two things look okay, and the meter isn't even visible
from the street (though I painted mine, all but the glass, to match the
house.

I'm sure there could have been better alternatives, but it's too late
now.


Right. They've been talking about this on our new neighborhood mailing
list, and I pointed out how bad it looked and how it could have looked
better. last I looked, this particular neighbor was on the miailing
list, but if she is, so be it.

Then someone else posted as both the salesman and the 5-star reference
for one of the companies. She said " I have [this brand of] panels and
my elec. went from about 290 to $47.50 and with my XOOM elec&has my bill
is about 22" This sounds very unlikely to me. I asked how big her
array is and how many watts, and if I could go see her house.

I myself don't think solar panels are ugly, only that bloomin' pipe.
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On 08/15/2017 10:28 PM, micky wrote:
I myself don't think solar panels are ugly, only that bloomin' pipe.



Agreed! I'd penetrate the roof (like a plumbing vent) with PVC electrical conduit and place the controls in a basement/utility room.

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In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 04:52:40 -0400, joe
wrote:

On 08/15/2017 10:28 PM, micky wrote:
I myself don't think solar panels are ugly, only that bloomin' pipe.



Agreed! I'd penetrate the roof (like a plumbing vent) with PVC electrical conduit and place the controls in a basement/utility room.


In my neighborhood post, I suggested that, and added that that part
wouldn't be free. The other part is not free but you don't have to pay
anything in advance. They collect it monthly and also promise your
total bill will be lower or at least not higher than it has been.


The other pretty big thing they've been putting outside is the FIOS
(fiber optic) cable box.

My DSL keeps taking breaks of some sort. Sometimes the webradio (a
separate program) will play for long periods of time with no
interruption, while the web seems to stop, even email will sometimes
stop. OTOH, sometimes the webradio sometimes stops while the other
things work fine.

A) If I had FIOS would that solve things?
B) Is Verizon intentionally messing with DSL to get people to change to
FIOS, or was it always like this?


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On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 1:31:09 AM UTC-4, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Tue 15 Aug 2017 07:28:30p, micky told us...

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Aug 2017 22:58:18 GMT, Wayne
Boatwright wrote:

On Tue 15 Aug 2017 02:49:41p, micky told us...

Someone in a townhouse not far from here got solar panels, for
free. The electric meter is in the front and that's why they ran
1.5 or 2" conduit up the front of the house to the roof, and put
in a 3" long junction box where the conduit had to bend almost
90^ to go on the roof.

I think it's uggggly.

What should they have done differently, even if the homeowner
had to pay?

Can conduit be painted and how long would it stay approximately
the same color? Is there any conduit or useable alternative
that is already colored? White? Brown? Mariner turquoise?

Even that wouldn't be very good but it's the easiest most
obvious.


How is it properly done when put on a roof?

Down through the stack to the basement, I presume, and the
electric connections and the solar control box (2 or 3 times the
size of the meter) are put in the basement????


In two instances I have used gutter downspouts to conceal
(contain)


So you mean put the cable inside the downspout! I thought he
just meant put the conduit in the corner between the downspout and
tthe wall??


Yes, the cable was put inside the downspout.

220 volt cable that was then buried to feed our hot tub.


Was it an actual downspout with water in it when it rained?


It was not an actual downspout to carry water. It was a section of
downspout bought specificaclly for this purpose. It didn't connect
to anything.

I also used
it to contain (conceal) the replacement freon lines running
between the compressor and the condensor (the original had been
buried in the poured concrete slab of the house). The downspouts
were then painted the same color as the house and barely
noticieable. Besides, downspouts look normal on a house wall, not
like an ugly cable.

Since this insallation is already in place, painting the meter and
control box could also be painted.


Actually those two things look okay, and the meter isn't even
visible from the street (though I painted mine, all but the glass,
to match the house.

I'm sure there could have been better alternatives, but it's too
late now.


Right. They've been talking about this on our new neighborhood
mailing list, and I pointed out how bad it looked and how it could
have looked better. last I looked, this particular neighbor was
on the miailing list, but if she is, so be it.

Then someone else posted as both the salesman and the 5-star
reference for one of the companies. She said " I have [this brand
of] panels and my elec. went from about 290 to $47.50 and with my
XOOM elec&has my bill is about 22" This sounds very unlikely to
me. I asked how big her array is and how many watts, and if I
could go see her house.

I myself don't think solar panels are ugly, only that bloomin'
pipe.


If I were iclined to put solar panels on my roof, I would definitely
ut them on the back side of the roof, as well as any associated
equipment either mounted on the back wall or in the basement, if
there is a basement.


Incline? No pun intended, I assume. ;-)

The layout of your house may dictate where you install the panels. You may lose some
production, depending on which way the rear roof faces as well as the slope.

My rear roof faces north so I'll lose production just from that. The trees won't help either.

This site contains a study done on north facing panels.

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.co...solar-modules/
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On 8/15/2017 5:58 PM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Tue 15 Aug 2017 02:49:41p, micky told us...

Someone in a townhouse not far from here got solar panels, for
free. The electric meter is in the front and that's why they ran
1.5 or 2" conduit up the front of the house to the roof, and put
in a 3" long junction box where the conduit had to bend almost 90^
to go on the roof.

I think it's uggggly.

What should they have done differently, even if the homeowner had
to pay?

Can conduit be painted and how long would it stay approximately
the same color? Is there any conduit or useable alternative
that is already colored? White? Brown? Mariner turquoise?

Even that wouldn't be very good but it's the easiest most obvious.


How is it properly done when put on a roof?

Down through the stack to the basement, I presume, and the
electric connections and the solar control box (2 or 3 times the
size of the meter) are put in the basement????


In two instances I have used gutter downspouts to conceal (contain)
220 volt cable that was then buried to feed our hot tub. I also used
it to contain (conceal) the replacement freon lines running between
the compressor and the condensor (the original had been buried in the
poured concrete slab of the house). The downspouts were then painted
the same color as the house and barely noticieable. Besides,
downspouts look normal on a house wall, not like an ugly cable.

Since this insallation is already in place, painting the meter and
control box could also be painted.

I'm sure there could have been better alternatives, but it's too late
now.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and free electricity looks pretty
to me. Suggestion; move to a HOA and enjoy utopia.
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On 8/16/2017 7:37 AM, micky wrote:


In my neighborhood post, I suggested that, and added that that part
wouldn't be free. The other part is not free but you don't have to pay
anything in advance. They collect it monthly and also promise your
total bill will be lower or at least not higher than it has been.

The solar company gets all the tax benefits and you get the potential
cost liability. You usually have a long term lease that leaves you
liable when you want to sell the house. Not for me.



The other pretty big thing they've been putting outside is the FIOS
(fiber optic) cable box.

My DSL keeps taking breaks of some sort. Sometimes the webradio (a
separate program) will play for long periods of time with no
interruption, while the web seems to stop, even email will sometimes
stop. OTOH, sometimes the webradio sometimes stops while the other
things work fine.

A) If I had FIOS would that solve things?
B) Is Verizon intentionally messing with DSL to get people to change to
FIOS, or was it always like this?


In some areas around here Verizon stopped installing FIOS. It may fix
your problems but talk to your neighbors that have it to see how well it
works for them.
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On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/16/2017 7:37 AM, micky wrote:


In my neighborhood post, I suggested that, and added that that part
wouldn't be free. The other part is not free but you don't have to pay
anything in advance. They collect it monthly and also promise your
total bill will be lower or at least not higher than it has been.

The solar company gets all the tax benefits and you get the potential
cost liability. You usually have a long term lease that leaves you
liable when you want to sell the house. Not for me.



The other pretty big thing they've been putting outside is the FIOS
(fiber optic) cable box.

My DSL keeps taking breaks of some sort. Sometimes the webradio (a
separate program) will play for long periods of time with no
interruption, while the web seems to stop, even email will sometimes
stop. OTOH, sometimes the webradio sometimes stops while the other
things work fine.

A) If I had FIOS would that solve things?
B) Is Verizon intentionally messing with DSL to get people to change to
FIOS, or was it always like this?


In some areas around here Verizon stopped installing FIOS. It may fix
your problems but talk to your neighbors that have it to see how well it
works for them.


Do you mean that Verizon stopped installing FIOS to new areas not
already served or that V stopped installing it for new customers
in areas that already have it? I thought they just stopped deploying
it to new areas and that occured several years ago.

I don't have FIOS, but I would expect it would be very reliable and fast
like cable internet. DSL has inherent big problems, it tries to use new
tech to push data over old wires.
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On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:33:17 AM UTC-4, My 2 Cents wrote:
On 8/15/2017 5:58 PM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Tue 15 Aug 2017 02:49:41p, micky told us...

Someone in a townhouse not far from here got solar panels, for
free. The electric meter is in the front and that's why they ran
1.5 or 2" conduit up the front of the house to the roof, and put
in a 3" long junction box where the conduit had to bend almost 90^
to go on the roof.

I think it's uggggly.

What should they have done differently, even if the homeowner had
to pay?

Can conduit be painted and how long would it stay approximately
the same color? Is there any conduit or useable alternative
that is already colored? White? Brown? Mariner turquoise?

Even that wouldn't be very good but it's the easiest most obvious.


How is it properly done when put on a roof?

Down through the stack to the basement, I presume, and the
electric connections and the solar control box (2 or 3 times the
size of the meter) are put in the basement????


In two instances I have used gutter downspouts to conceal (contain)
220 volt cable that was then buried to feed our hot tub. I also used
it to contain (conceal) the replacement freon lines running between
the compressor and the condensor (the original had been buried in the
poured concrete slab of the house). The downspouts were then painted
the same color as the house and barely noticieable. Besides,
downspouts look normal on a house wall, not like an ugly cable.

Since this insallation is already in place, painting the meter and
control box could also be painted.

I'm sure there could have been better alternatives, but it's too late
now.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and free electricity looks pretty
to me. Suggestion; move to a HOA and enjoy utopia.


He may have to when that neighbor reads what Micky said about how
her house looks in that newsletter. Sounds like a good way to start
a war to me.


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On 8/16/2017 10:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:


The other pretty big thing they've been putting outside is the FIOS
(fiber optic) cable box.

My DSL keeps taking breaks of some sort. Sometimes the webradio (a
separate program) will play for long periods of time with no
interruption, while the web seems to stop, even email will sometimes
stop. OTOH, sometimes the webradio sometimes stops while the other
things work fine.

A) If I had FIOS would that solve things?
B) Is Verizon intentionally messing with DSL to get people to change to
FIOS, or was it always like this?


In some areas around here Verizon stopped installing FIOS. It may fix
your problems but talk to your neighbors that have it to see how well it
works for them.


Do you mean that Verizon stopped installing FIOS to new areas not
already served or that V stopped installing it for new customers
in areas that already have it? I thought they just stopped deploying
it to new areas and that occured several years ago.

I don't have FIOS, but I would expect it would be very reliable and fast
like cable internet. DSL has inherent big problems, it tries to use new
tech to push data over old wires.


Both for a while. They had problems in at least one area but that may
have changed. ATT also slowed and perhaps stopped in new areas. They
also sold off their landline service to Frontier.
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In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 07:14:40 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:33:17 AM UTC-4, My 2 Cents wrote:
On 8/15/2017 5:58 PM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Tue 15 Aug 2017 02:49:41p, micky told us...

Someone in a townhouse not far from here got solar panels, for
free. The electric meter is in the front and that's why they ran
1.5 or 2" conduit up the front of the house to the roof, and put
in a 3" long junction box where the conduit had to bend almost 90^
to go on the roof.

I think it's uggggly.

What should they have done differently, even if the homeowner had
to pay?

Can conduit be painted and how long would it stay approximately
the same color? Is there any conduit or useable alternative
that is already colored? White? Brown? Mariner turquoise?

Even that wouldn't be very good but it's the easiest most obvious.


How is it properly done when put on a roof?

Down through the stack to the basement, I presume, and the
electric connections and the solar control box (2 or 3 times the
size of the meter) are put in the basement????


In two instances I have used gutter downspouts to conceal (contain)
220 volt cable that was then buried to feed our hot tub. I also used
it to contain (conceal) the replacement freon lines running between
the compressor and the condensor (the original had been buried in the
poured concrete slab of the house). The downspouts were then painted
the same color as the house and barely noticieable. Besides,
downspouts look normal on a house wall, not like an ugly cable.

Since this insallation is already in place, painting the meter and
control box could also be painted.

I'm sure there could have been better alternatives, but it's too late
now.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and free electricity looks pretty
to me. Suggestion; move to a HOA and enjoy utopia.


He may have to when that neighbor reads what Micky said about how
her house looks in that newsletter. Sounds like a good way to start
a war to me.


I'm sure she doesn't read this group.

OTOH, the neigbhorhood list I mentioned (a subset of nextdoor.com) has
about 30 of the 100 of us subscribed. They had an online list of all of
those 30 subscribers and I should have checked it again before the
similar comments I made there, but I don't think she's a member yet --
I just checked and she's not -- and if she joins later, she won't see
earlier posts. I don't think there are archives even if she wanted to
look at old posts.

However not only did I say the installation was ugly, but the next day a
woman from outside the n'hood posted and said she was selling the
systems and her bill went from 290 to 48 dollars (and then when she
switched electric companies it went to 22 dollars).

I"ve never heard a claim of a 242 dollar / month savings, and I asked
how big her array was, how many watts it put out, and asked if I could
see her house. I don't trust her.

I'm sure I annoyed her, which is okay, but because I thought only my 100
neighbors would be reading all this, I used my real name. Now I see we
get posts from maybe a dozen nearby n'hoods, and I really don't want to
fight with someone who knows my name.

So I just signed up a second time, but I have to give my home address.
They would accept my cell phone number, but I'm not telling them that,
and they would accept a credit card number but I'm surely not telling
them that. So that only leaves a postcard. OTOH, my neighbors know
there's no one else living here, unless I keep him chained in the
basement. Maybe I can keep this new listing's address out of the
n'hood list.
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In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 05:31:00 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Tue 15 Aug 2017 07:28:30p, micky told us...

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Aug 2017 22:58:18 GMT, Wayne
Boatwright wrote:

On Tue 15 Aug 2017 02:49:41p, micky told us...
.....


In two instances I have used gutter downspouts to conceal
(contain)


So you mean put the cable inside the downspout! I thought he
just meant put the conduit in the corner between the downspout and
tthe wall??


Yes, the cable was put inside the downspout.

220 volt cable that was then buried to feed our hot tub.


Was it an actual downspout with water in it when it rained?


It was not an actual downspout to carry water. It was a section of
downspout bought specificaclly for this purpose. It didn't connect
to anything.


That would be okay. It's probably what he meant.

I'm sure you didn't have a 3" right angle connection that was hanging in
mid-air by a few inches.

I also used
it to contain (conceal) the replacement freon lines running
between the compressor and the condensor (the original had been
buried in the poured concrete slab of the house). The downspouts
were then painted the same color as the house and barely
noticieable. Besides, downspouts look normal on a house wall, not
like an ugly cable.

Since this insallation is already in place, painting the meter and
control box could also be painted.


Actually those two things look okay, and the meter isn't even
visible from the street (though I painted mine, all but the glass,
to match the house.

I'm sure there could have been better alternatives, but it's too
late now.


Right. They've been talking about this on our new neighborhood
mailing list, and I pointed out how bad it looked and how it could
have looked better. last I looked, this particular neighbor was
on the miailing list, but if she is, so be it.

Then someone else posted as both the salesman and the 5-star
reference for one of the companies. She said " I have [this brand
of] panels and my elec. went from about 290 to $47.50 and with my
XOOM elec&has my bill is about 22" This sounds very unlikely to
me. I asked how big her array is and how many watts, and if I
could go see her house.

I myself don't think solar panels are ugly, only that bloomin'
pipe.


If I were iclined to put solar panels on my roof, I would definitely
ut them on the back side of the roof, as well as any associated
equipment either mounted on the back wall or in the basement, if
there is a basement.


I wonder if she got both the front and the back. I can see the front,
but that side points north east. The south west side would be better,
plus, because we're on a hill, you can't even see the roof on the back
of the house.

Another neighbor put a light on the side of his house and instead of
running elecricty to the attic and then through the wall to the light,
they ran aluminum conduit from the porch light 20 feet sideways and 20
feet up. It sure looks ugly.

Other houses I've seen put in floodlights and instead of running cable
in the bedroom wall up one foot from a indoor receptacle and out, they
run conduit from the porch light outside the wall and it looks ugly too.

I don't think they know anything about construction and it doesn't even
occur to them how to do it right.
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In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 04:59:26 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 1:31:09 AM UTC-4, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Tue 15 Aug 2017 07:28:30p, micky told us...

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Aug 2017 22:58:18 GMT, Wayne
Boatwright wrote:

On Tue 15 Aug 2017 02:49:41p, micky told us...

Someone in a townhouse not far from here got solar panels, for
free. The electric meter is in the front and that's why they ran
1.5 or 2" conduit up the front of the house to the roof, and put
in a 3" long junction box where the conduit had to bend almost
90^ to go on the roof.

I think it's uggggly.

What should they have done differently, even if the homeowner
had to pay?

Can conduit be painted and how long would it stay approximately
the same color? Is there any conduit or useable alternative
that is already colored? White? Brown? Mariner turquoise?

Even that wouldn't be very good but it's the easiest most
obvious.


How is it properly done when put on a roof?

Down through the stack to the basement, I presume, and the
electric connections and the solar control box (2 or 3 times the
size of the meter) are put in the basement????


In two instances I have used gutter downspouts to conceal
(contain)

So you mean put the cable inside the downspout! I thought he
just meant put the conduit in the corner between the downspout and
tthe wall??


Yes, the cable was put inside the downspout.

220 volt cable that was then buried to feed our hot tub.

Was it an actual downspout with water in it when it rained?


It was not an actual downspout to carry water. It was a section of
downspout bought specificaclly for this purpose. It didn't connect
to anything.

I also used
it to contain (conceal) the replacement freon lines running
between the compressor and the condensor (the original had been
buried in the poured concrete slab of the house). The downspouts
were then painted the same color as the house and barely
noticieable. Besides, downspouts look normal on a house wall, not
like an ugly cable.

Since this insallation is already in place, painting the meter and
control box could also be painted.

Actually those two things look okay, and the meter isn't even
visible from the street (though I painted mine, all but the glass,
to match the house.

I'm sure there could have been better alternatives, but it's too
late now.

Right. They've been talking about this on our new neighborhood
mailing list, and I pointed out how bad it looked and how it could
have looked better. last I looked, this particular neighbor was
on the miailing list, but if she is, so be it.

Then someone else posted as both the salesman and the 5-star
reference for one of the companies. She said " I have [this brand
of] panels and my elec. went from about 290 to $47.50 and with my
XOOM elec&has my bill is about 22" This sounds very unlikely to
me. I asked how big her array is and how many watts, and if I
could go see her house.

I myself don't think solar panels are ugly, only that bloomin'
pipe.


If I were iclined to put solar panels on my roof, I would definitely
ut them on the back side of the roof, as well as any associated
equipment either mounted on the back wall or in the basement, if
there is a basement.


Incline? No pun intended, I assume. ;-)

The layout of your house may dictate where you install the panels. You may lose some
production, depending on which way the rear roof faces as well as the slope.

My rear roof faces north so I'll lose production just from that. The trees won't help either.

This site contains a study done on north facing panels.

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.co...solar-modules/


This is a great page, except for one mistake, as I read it. "The sun
is overhead in the summer, when the array is most productive—so the
arrays are nearly identical during the most crucial times"

He does say "nearly" but I still think it can be misleading to a lot of
people. The sun is always above our heads, but it is never directly
above our heads or north of the the line going straight up from our
heads. That is, even on the longest day of the year, the sun is never
farther north than the Tropic of Cancer, which goes through Mexico and
along the northern coast of Cuba. So even Florida and Texas don't get
direct sunlight, ever. There is always some angle. But the angle is
less during the summer -- That's what makes it summer!
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On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 11:44:36 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 04:59:26 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 1:31:09 AM UTC-4, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Tue 15 Aug 2017 07:28:30p, micky told us...

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Aug 2017 22:58:18 GMT, Wayne
Boatwright wrote:

On Tue 15 Aug 2017 02:49:41p, micky told us...

Someone in a townhouse not far from here got solar panels, for
free. The electric meter is in the front and that's why they ran
1.5 or 2" conduit up the front of the house to the roof, and put
in a 3" long junction box where the conduit had to bend almost
90^ to go on the roof.

I think it's uggggly.

What should they have done differently, even if the homeowner
had to pay?

Can conduit be painted and how long would it stay approximately
the same color? Is there any conduit or useable alternative
that is already colored? White? Brown? Mariner turquoise?

Even that wouldn't be very good but it's the easiest most
obvious.


How is it properly done when put on a roof?

Down through the stack to the basement, I presume, and the
electric connections and the solar control box (2 or 3 times the
size of the meter) are put in the basement????


In two instances I have used gutter downspouts to conceal
(contain)

So you mean put the cable inside the downspout! I thought he
just meant put the conduit in the corner between the downspout and
tthe wall??

Yes, the cable was put inside the downspout.

220 volt cable that was then buried to feed our hot tub.

Was it an actual downspout with water in it when it rained?

It was not an actual downspout to carry water. It was a section of
downspout bought specificaclly for this purpose. It didn't connect
to anything.

I also used
it to contain (conceal) the replacement freon lines running
between the compressor and the condensor (the original had been
buried in the poured concrete slab of the house). The downspouts
were then painted the same color as the house and barely
noticieable. Besides, downspouts look normal on a house wall, not
like an ugly cable.

Since this insallation is already in place, painting the meter and
control box could also be painted.

Actually those two things look okay, and the meter isn't even
visible from the street (though I painted mine, all but the glass,
to match the house.

I'm sure there could have been better alternatives, but it's too
late now.

Right. They've been talking about this on our new neighborhood
mailing list, and I pointed out how bad it looked and how it could
have looked better. last I looked, this particular neighbor was
on the miailing list, but if she is, so be it.

Then someone else posted as both the salesman and the 5-star
reference for one of the companies. She said " I have [this brand
of] panels and my elec. went from about 290 to $47.50 and with my
XOOM elec&has my bill is about 22" This sounds very unlikely to
me. I asked how big her array is and how many watts, and if I
could go see her house.

I myself don't think solar panels are ugly, only that bloomin'
pipe.


If I were iclined to put solar panels on my roof, I would definitely
ut them on the back side of the roof, as well as any associated
equipment either mounted on the back wall or in the basement, if
there is a basement.


Incline? No pun intended, I assume. ;-)

The layout of your house may dictate where you install the panels. You may lose some
production, depending on which way the rear roof faces as well as the slope.

My rear roof faces north so I'll lose production just from that. The trees won't help either.

This site contains a study done on north facing panels.

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.co...solar-modules/


This is a great page, except for one mistake, as I read it. "The sun
is overhead in the summer, when the array is most productive€”so the
arrays are nearly identical during the most crucial times"


How much sun does the north side of a roof in your area get
even in summer? It's not about summer just summer
months, it's about how much sun falls on a given roof face
during the entire year. South facing is best, sw is still
very good. North, forget about it. I've never seen an array
facing north, have you?






He does say "nearly" but I still think it can be misleading to a lot of
people. The sun is always above our heads, but it is never directly
above our heads or north of the the line going straight up from our
heads. That is, even on the longest day of the year, the sun is never
farther north than the Tropic of Cancer, which goes through Mexico and
along the northern coast of Cuba. So even Florida and Texas don't get
direct sunlight, ever. There is always some angle. But the angle is
less during the summer -- That's what makes it summer!


There are calculators that give you the exact data for a specific location.
It's what the installers use.


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In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 09:10:56 -0400, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:

On 8/16/2017 7:37 AM, micky wrote:


In my neighborhood post, I suggested that, and added that that part
wouldn't be free. The other part is not free but you don't have to pay
anything in advance. They collect it monthly and also promise your
total bill will be lower or at least not higher than it has been.

The solar company gets all the tax benefits and you get the potential
cost liability. You usually have a long term lease that leaves you
liable when you want to sell the house. Not for me.


About 20 years, I think. So you're expected to pay off the loan if you
sell your house? That makes sense.

I guess I was thinking the new owner would take over the contract, but
even if he continued the agreement so they continued to get their
payments, it would be like a subtenant and the original tenant, who had
moved out, would still be ultimately liable for the rent if it doesn't
get paid by the subtenant.


The other pretty big thing they've been putting outside is the FIOS
(fiber optic) cable box.

My DSL keeps taking breaks of some sort. Sometimes the webradio (a
separate program) will play for long periods of time with no
interruption, while the web seems to stop, even email will sometimes
stop. OTOH, sometimes the webradio sometimes stops while the other
things work fine.

A) If I had FIOS would that solve things?
B) Is Verizon intentionally messing with DSL to get people to change to
FIOS, or was it always like this?


In some areas around here Verizon stopped installing FIOS. It may fix
your problems but talk to your neighbors that have it to see how well it
works for them.


Very good idea. I should have thought of that.

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In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:35:56 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 11:44:36 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 04:59:26 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 1:31:09 AM UTC-4, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Tue 15 Aug 2017 07:28:30p, micky told us...

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Aug 2017 22:58:18 GMT, Wayne
Boatwright wrote:

On Tue 15 Aug 2017 02:49:41p, micky told us...

Someone in a townhouse not far from here got solar panels, for
free. The electric meter is in the front and that's why they ran
1.5 or 2" conduit up the front of the house to the roof, and put
in a 3" long junction box where the conduit had to bend almost
90^ to go on the roof.

I think it's uggggly.

What should they have done differently, even if the homeowner
had to pay?

Can conduit be painted and how long would it stay approximately
the same color? Is there any conduit or useable alternative
that is already colored? White? Brown? Mariner turquoise?

Even that wouldn't be very good but it's the easiest most
obvious.


How is it properly done when put on a roof?

Down through the stack to the basement, I presume, and the
electric connections and the solar control box (2 or 3 times the
size of the meter) are put in the basement????


In two instances I have used gutter downspouts to conceal
(contain)

So you mean put the cable inside the downspout! I thought he
just meant put the conduit in the corner between the downspout and
tthe wall??

Yes, the cable was put inside the downspout.

220 volt cable that was then buried to feed our hot tub.

Was it an actual downspout with water in it when it rained?

It was not an actual downspout to carry water. It was a section of
downspout bought specificaclly for this purpose. It didn't connect
to anything.

I also used
it to contain (conceal) the replacement freon lines running
between the compressor and the condensor (the original had been
buried in the poured concrete slab of the house). The downspouts
were then painted the same color as the house and barely
noticieable. Besides, downspouts look normal on a house wall, not
like an ugly cable.

Since this insallation is already in place, painting the meter and
control box could also be painted.

Actually those two things look okay, and the meter isn't even
visible from the street (though I painted mine, all but the glass,
to match the house.

I'm sure there could have been better alternatives, but it's too
late now.

Right. They've been talking about this on our new neighborhood
mailing list, and I pointed out how bad it looked and how it could
have looked better. last I looked, this particular neighbor was
on the miailing list, but if she is, so be it.

Then someone else posted as both the salesman and the 5-star
reference for one of the companies. She said " I have [this brand
of] panels and my elec. went from about 290 to $47.50 and with my
XOOM elec&has my bill is about 22" This sounds very unlikely to
me. I asked how big her array is and how many watts, and if I
could go see her house.

I myself don't think solar panels are ugly, only that bloomin'
pipe.


If I were iclined to put solar panels on my roof, I would definitely
ut them on the back side of the roof, as well as any associated
equipment either mounted on the back wall or in the basement, if
there is a basement.

Incline? No pun intended, I assume. ;-)

The layout of your house may dictate where you install the panels. You may lose some
production, depending on which way the rear roof faces as well as the slope.

My rear roof faces north so I'll lose production just from that. The trees won't help either.

This site contains a study done on north facing panels.

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.co...solar-modules/


This is a great page, except for one mistake, as I read it. "The sun
is overhead in the summer, when the array is most productive—so the
arrays are nearly identical during the most crucial times"


How much sun does the north side of a roof in your area get
even in summer?


Whatever Derby Dad's page said.

It's not about summer just summer
months, it's about how much sun falls on a given roof face
during the entire year.


It depends on what you mean by "it". You appear to be talking about the
annual solar input, but I was talking about "The sun is overhead in the
summer".

South facing is best, sw is still
very good. North, forget about it. I've never seen an array
facing north, have you?


I have. Did you read Dad's page. It's not such a bad idea,depending on
the latitude and slope of the roof, and maybe there were other factors.


He does say "nearly" but I still think it can be misleading to a lot of
people. The sun is always above our heads, but it is never directly
above our heads or north of the the line going straight up from our
heads. That is, even on the longest day of the year, the sun is never
farther north than the Tropic of Cancer, which goes through Mexico and
along the northern coast of Cuba. So even Florida and Texas don't get
direct sunlight, ever. There is always some angle. But the angle is
less during the summer -- That's what makes it summer!


There are calculators that give you the exact data for a specific location.
It's what the installers use.


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On 8/16/2017 5:00 PM, micky wrote:


The solar company gets all the tax benefits and you get the potential
cost liability. You usually have a long term lease that leaves you
liable when you want to sell the house. Not for me.


About 20 years, I think. So you're expected to pay off the loan if you
sell your house? That makes sense.

I guess I was thinking the new owner would take over the contract, but
even if he continued the agreement so they continued to get their
payments, it would be like a subtenant and the original tenant, who had
moved out, would still be ultimately liable for the rent if it doesn't
get paid by the subtenant.


I imagine there are different ways to handle it but I wonder what it
does to the value of the house. Five years in, if the lease was paid off
by the original owner I can se it as a plus. Twenty years later with
old equipment wearing out, it could be a deal killer.
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On 08/15/2017 09:28 PM, micky wrote:

[snip]

I myself don't think solar panels are ugly, only that bloomin' pipe.


A lot of the time "ugly" seems to be a synonym of "useful".

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The reward of a thing well done is to have done it." -- Ralph Waldo
Emerson
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On 08/16/2017 12:31 AM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:

[snip]

If I were iclined to put solar panels on my roof, I would definitely
ut them on the back side of the roof,


Even if the sun shines on the front a lot more than it shines on the back.

[snip]




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On 08/16/2017 07:33 AM, My 2 Cents wrote:

[snip]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and free electricity looks pretty
to me.


I'm like that. Much of what looks good to me is what's useful.

BTW, I keep a towel next to the sink for drying my hands. I know some
people who hide the towel where it's hard to get to, and have this stuff
that looks like fake mistletoe within easy reach.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The reward of a thing well done is to have done it." -- Ralph Waldo
Emerson
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On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 5:04:17 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:


How much sun does the north side of a roof in your area get
even in summer?


Whatever Derby Dad's page said.

It's not about summer just summer
months, it's about how much sun falls on a given roof face
during the entire year.


It depends on what you mean by "it". You appear to be talking about the
annual solar input, but I was talking about "The sun is overhead in the
summer".


Do people typically buy these systems based on it's output versus
it's cost savings based on the summer only or on a whole typical
year?





South facing is best, sw is still
very good. North, forget about it. I've never seen an array
facing north, have you?


I have. Did you read Dad's page. It's not such a bad idea,depending on
the latitude and slope of the roof, and maybe there were other factors.


I just read it now. Let's start with this:

How much worse are north-facing solar modules?

"We start with a typical residential system in Charlotte, North Carolina. We designed and modeled the system in HelioScope, our sales and design software platform. With a 2/12 pitched roof...."


So, they don't start with a "typical residential system", unless 2/12
roofs are typical in NC. Are they typical in MD? They aren't typical
here, 6/12 would be typical. Then they say that if it were a shallow
pitched roof of 1/12. WTF? 2/12 is already shallow. If it's close
to flat, then orientation doesn't matter. Finally they
start to get to reality, 4/12 is 29% less efficient when facing north.
I'm not going to bother with the calculator to find out how bad it gets
when you reach 6/12 pitch, but from the shallow 2/12 roof to a 4/12 roof
the efficiency loss doubled, so draw your own conclusions on what
happens as you get closer to a typical roof. Even at 4/12 you're
29% worse off and that's in NC, if you go further north it gets worse
too. The economics already
need subsidies to make them practical and that's for a normal install.
If you want to put one on a typical roof that faces north, you can
but the economics get much worse. That is why I don't see them on
north facing roofs here.




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On 8/16/2017 5:57 PM, Sam E wrote:
On 08/16/2017 12:31 AM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:

[snip]

If I were iclined to put solar panels on my roof, I would definitely
ut them on the back side of the roof,


Even if the sun shines on the front a lot more than it shines on the back.

[snip]



It would be of some benefit but the payback will be longer and monthly
contribution less. Wayne is in Phoenix so they get a lot of sun anyway.
Comes down to the numbers, I guess.
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In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 15:52:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 5:04:17 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:


How much sun does the north side of a roof in your area get
even in summer?


Whatever Derby Dad's page said.

It's not about summer just summer
months, it's about how much sun falls on a given roof face
during the entire year.


It depends on what you mean by "it". You appear to be talking about the
annual solar input, but I was talking about "The sun is overhead in the
summer".


Do people typically buy these systems based on it's output versus
it's cost savings based on the summer only or on a whole typical
year?


Let me say again, I wasn't talking about annual output or how people
decide whether to buy solar panels or not.

I was talking about "The sun is overhead in the summer". If you want to
call it thread drift or OT, feel free.




South facing is best, sw is still
very good. North, forget about it. I've never seen an array
facing north, have you?


I have. Did you read Dad's page. It's not such a bad idea,depending on
the latitude and slope of the roof, and maybe there were other factors.


I just read it now. Let's start with this:

How much worse are north-facing solar modules?

"We start with a typical residential system in Charlotte, North Carolina. We designed and modeled the system in HelioScope, our sales and design software platform. With a 2/12 pitched roof...."


So, they don't start with a "typical residential system", unless 2/12
roofs are typical in NC. Are they typical in MD? They aren't typical
here, 6/12 would be typical. Then they say that if it were a shallow


Now you are talking about roof pitch when I was asking your question
about whether I had seen an array facing north. As I said, I have seen
it and it's not such a bad idea, depending on atleast 3 factors.

If you want to change the subject, fine, but I think you should make
clear that you're not relating your new topic with my topic.

But since you've changed the subject, yes, there are 2/12 roofs here.

Probably some 1/12 roofs but I don't remember any in particular.

pitched roof of 1/12. WTF? 2/12 is already shallow. If it's close
to flat, then orientation doesn't matter. Finally they
start to get to reality, 4/12 is 29% less efficient when facing north.
I'm not going to bother with the calculator to find out how bad it gets
when you reach 6/12 pitch, but from the shallow 2/12 roof to a 4/12 roof
the efficiency loss doubled, so draw your own conclusions on what
happens as you get closer to a typical roof. Even at 4/12 you're
29% worse off and that's in NC, if you go further north it gets worse
too. The economics already
need subsidies to make them practical and that's for a normal install.
If you want to put one on a typical roof that faces north, you can
but the economics get much worse. That is why I don't see them on
north facing roofs here.


The smae article points out that if the roof is oriented NNE/SSW the
difference is not as great and with NE/SW it's is a lot less. But it
doesn't really matter because I'm not getting cells any time soon.

If I ever decide to get solar cells, I'll do or get the calculations.
That's why I bookmarked Dad's page.
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In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 17:44:35 -0400, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:

On 8/16/2017 5:00 PM, micky wrote:


The solar company gets all the tax benefits and you get the potential
cost liability. You usually have a long term lease that leaves you
liable when you want to sell the house. Not for me.


About 20 years, I think. So you're expected to pay off the loan if you
sell your house? That makes sense.

I guess I was thinking the new owner would take over the contract, but
even if he continued the agreement so they continued to get their
payments, it would be like a subtenant and the original tenant, who had
moved out, would still be ultimately liable for the rent if it doesn't
get paid by the subtenant.


I imagine there are different ways to handle it but I wonder what it
does to the value of the house. Five years in, if the lease was paid off
by the original owner I can se it as a plus. Twenty years later with
old equipment wearing out, it could be a deal killer.


My friend has a big lot and the original builder/owner put in solar
cells on a slanted panel on the ground, with firs or tall bushes hiding
them from the house. They must be 6 or 10 years old now. I was thinking
that they might be old, but at least on the ground they'll be easier to
replace.

The wiring to the house is buried and she kept track at first of the
money she was saving and it made her happy. She asked me about the
installation I posted about here, if they owned the equipement or not.
I think she owns hers.



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fios runs on fibre optics to the ONT the box on the outside of the home they do it this way so techs can work on fios from outside

DSL works on the copper lines., verizon has decided to turn off its entire copper plant nationwide. a friend is a verizon tech reports 3 states have already gone dark,.

verizon has sold off nearly all customers in non fios areas.......

there long term plans re to go to wireless internet.

i was a early fios adopter. it had all sorts of troubles, including a central office problem with a bad router. there road techs were great, but their customer call in csrs sucked big time.

i finally demanded they remove the copper lines NID and all fios stuff most notably the ONT on the side of my house........

they reported it was against company policy impossible.

i threated them with my promise a big banner across my yard

VERIZON FIOS SUCKS. heck i had access to one of those low power radio stations realtors use. i was going to broadcast to anyone coming by my horror story.......

if verizon ever sends another salesman too my home i will ask him to help me put the sign up..........

the same fios call takers also supported my business phone.....one day realizing i was only using my cell phone for out going calls. i called and cancelled my out going call package which cost at the time 60 bucks a month

they mistakendly called my entire phone line twice...... 2nd timw took nearly a week to fix

now you know why i hate verizon

they tried 2 to 3 times a week harassing me at dinner time to try to sell me fios after i had turned it off, so far they have left me alone.....

i do some advertising for fios. if i run into a fios sales kiosk i stand around and act friendly, once there lots of people around i tell my horror story.....

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On 08/16/2017 06:52 PM, trader_4 wrote:
Do people typically buy these systems based on it's output versus
it's cost savings based on the summer only or on a whole typical
year?


Don't know about other people but for me the return I get on money invested with Vanguard is greater than a return I would get from any solar system. Solar is just not there yet.

That said I think we need to take the money taxpayers waste on welfare democrats and reroute it into solar R&D.





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In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:54:44 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 08/15/2017 09:28 PM, micky wrote:

[snip]

I myself don't think solar panels are ugly, only that bloomin' pipe.


A lot of the time "ugly" seems to be a synonym of "useful".


Of course the pipe is useful but being useful is good, being ugly is
bad. It's both.
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In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 13:22:31 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Wed 16 Aug 2017 04:37:12a, micky told us...

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 04:52:40 -0400, joe
wrote:

On 08/15/2017 10:28 PM, micky wrote:
I myself don't think solar panels are ugly, only that bloomin'
pipe.


Agreed! I'd penetrate the roof (like a plumbing vent) with PVC
electrical conduit and place the controls in a basement/utility
room.


In my neighborhood post, I suggested that, and added that that
part wouldn't be free. The other part is not free but you don't
have to pay anything in advance. They collect it monthly and also
promise your total bill will be lower or at least not higher than
it has been.


The other pretty big thing they've been putting outside is the
FIOS (fiber optic) cable box.

My DSL keeps taking breaks of some sort. Sometimes the webradio
(a separate program) will play for long periods of time with no
interruption, while the web seems to stop, even email will
sometimes stop. OTOH, sometimes the webradio sometimes stops
while the other things work fine.

A) If I had FIOS would that solve things?
B) Is Verizon intentionally messing with DSL to get people to
change to FIOS, or was it always like this?


I know nothing about Verizon's FIOS. However, in central Phoenix
Cox's fiber optics interface box is always mounted on the rear wall
of the house, as arer other interface and control boxes for other
uses. Cox's Intrnet speed tops out at 300 Mbps. We chose 100 Mbps
and have had amazingly good performance for all purposes, virtually
uninterrupted with the exception of power failures.


That's good to know.

Here the cable TV is in the back yard, but other utilities are in the
front, sewer, water, electric, phone, fiber. We don't have gas, and we
didn't have fiber of course but they put it in the front. Did a good
job in terms of not digging up any more than they had to, and by had to.
Ran the fiber under narrow sidewalks without damaging them, although
they did tear up one wider sidewalk and the replacenment doesn't have
the nice border the original had. I should have called to complain but
I didn't. (Now I don't notice it anymore, but I still should have
complained.)
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On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 9:50:04 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 15:52:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 5:04:17 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:


How much sun does the north side of a roof in your area get
even in summer?

Whatever Derby Dad's page said.

It's not about summer just summer
months, it's about how much sun falls on a given roof face
during the entire year.

It depends on what you mean by "it". You appear to be talking about the
annual solar input, but I was talking about "The sun is overhead in the
summer".


Do people typically buy these systems based on it's output versus
it's cost savings based on the summer only or on a whole typical
year?


Let me say again, I wasn't talking about annual output or how people
decide whether to buy solar panels or not.

I was talking about "The sun is overhead in the summer". If you want to
call it thread drift or OT, feel free.







South facing is best, sw is still
very good. North, forget about it. I've never seen an array
facing north, have you?

I have. Did you read Dad's page. It's not such a bad idea,depending on
the latitude and slope of the roof, and maybe there were other factors.


I just read it now. Let's start with this:

How much worse are north-facing solar modules?

"We start with a typical residential system in Charlotte, North Carolina. We designed and modeled the system in HelioScope, our sales and design software platform. With a 2/12 pitched roof...."


So, they don't start with a "typical residential system", unless 2/12
roofs are typical in NC. Are they typical in MD? They aren't typical
here, 6/12 would be typical. Then they say that if it were a shallow


Now you are talking about roof pitch when I was asking your question
about whether I had seen an array facing north. As I said, I have seen
it and it's not such a bad idea, depending on atleast 3 factors.

If you want to change the subject, fine, but I think you should make
clear that you're not relating your new topic with my topic.


I am relating it to your topic. You said someone in your
neighborhood got solar panels installed. That was the topic.
Seems to me that system, the economics of it, whether it's wise
to install or not depends on using it year round, not just during
the summer. You apparently then swallowed that article about north
facing roofs not affecting performance much without realizing they
start off with a very misleading analysis, they use a 2/12 roof and
then say that it gets even better with a low pitch roof, 1/12?
2/12 is already a low pitch roof, the lowest code allows for shingles,
but then they want to sell solar systems, so they probably aren't
the most objective, eh?

The problem is that solar is only feasible for most people because
it's being subsidized, it has a long payback period and when you
further cripple it by putting
it on a north facing roof, it gets worse, a lot worse if it's
a typical 4/12 to 6/12 roof instead of a nearly flat roof in the example.






But since you've changed the subject, yes, there are 2/12 roofs here.

Probably some 1/12 roofs but I don't remember any in particular.


On homes here, a 2/12 roof isn't common, I've never seen a 1/12
roof. And where I have seen a 2/12 kind of roof, it's been as
just one smaller part of an overall structure, like part of a
contemporary house design. I have one roof plane close to that
on mine, over the garage, but it's not big enough for a typical
array either.

If you want to put a solar array facing north and understand the
economics, that's fine. I'm just saying if you read that article
where they claim to use a "typical" installation and then use
a 2/12 roof and talk about a 1/12 roof, to show that the output
only takes a 16% hit, it's very misleading. Eventually they do
say that a more typical 4/12 roof takes a 29% hit, which is why
you don't typically see them on the north side of homes. It
changes the economics significantly.




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On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 05:09:59 -0400, Bob wrote in


On 08/16/2017 06:52 PM, trader_4 wrote:
Do people typically buy these systems based on it's output versus
it's cost savings based on the summer only or on a whole typical
year?


Don't know about other people but for me the return I get on money invested
with Vanguard is greater than a return I would get from any solar system.
Solar is just not there yet.


+1
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.
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On 8/16/2017 8:44 AM, micky wrote:

This is a great page, except for one mistake, as I read it. "The sun
is overhead in the summer, when the array is most productive€”so the
arrays are nearly identical during the most crucial times"

He does say "nearly" but I still think it can be misleading to a lot of
people. The sun is always above our heads, but it is never directly
above our heads or north of the the line going straight up from our
heads. That is, even on the longest day of the year, the sun is never
farther north than the Tropic of Cancer, which goes through Mexico and
along the northern coast of Cuba. So even Florida and Texas don't get
direct sunlight, ever. There is always some angle. But the angle is
less during the summer -- That's what makes it summer!


What are you trying to say here?

The sun at the longest days comes in my north facing windows in early
morning and late evening. North of the arctic circle, the sun comes from
straight north at midnight.

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In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 20:50:18 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

fios runs on fibre optics to the ONT the box on the outside of the home they do it this way so techs can work on fios from outside

DSL works on the copper lines., verizon has decided to turn off its entire copper plant nationwide. a friend is a verizon tech reports 3 states have already gone dark,.

verizon has sold off nearly all customers in non fios areas.......


Yes, I should plan it right so that I get the best deal to abandon DSL.
But I have no patience to pay attention, and I might be too late
already, and I'll probably get an ultimatum and a bad deal.


there long term plans re to go to wireless internet.

i was a early fios adopter. it had all sorts of troubles, including a central office problem with a bad router. there road techs were great, but their customer call in csrs sucked big time.

i finally demanded they remove the copper lines NID and all fios stuff most notably the ONT on the side of my house........


LOL. But I don't get it. If FIOS was giving you so much trouble,
wouldn't you want the copper as a backup?


they reported it was against company policy impossible.

i threated them with my promise a big banner across my yard

VERIZON FIOS SUCKS. heck i had access to one of those low power radio stations realtors use. i was going to broadcast to anyone coming by my horror story.......


LOL


if verizon ever sends another salesman too my home i will ask him to help me put the sign up..........

the same fios call takers also supported my business phone.....one day realizing i was only using my cell phone for out going calls. i called and cancelled my out going call package which cost at the time 60 bucks a month

they mistakendly called my entire phone line twice...... 2nd timw took nearly a week to fix

now you know why i hate verizon

they tried 2 to 3 times a week harassing me at dinner time to try to sell me fios after i had turned it off, so far they have left me alone.....


I got them to stop calling me, but they still write a lot.


i do some advertising for fios. if i run into a fios sales kiosk i stand around and act friendly, once there lots of people around i tell my horror story.....


LOL
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In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 17 Aug 2017 09:15:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 9:50:04 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Aug 2017 15:52:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 5:04:17 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:


How much sun does the north side of a roof in your area get
even in summer?

Whatever Derby Dad's page said.

It's not about summer just summer
months, it's about how much sun falls on a given roof face
during the entire year.

It depends on what you mean by "it". You appear to be talking about the
annual solar input, but I was talking about "The sun is overhead in the
summer".

Do people typically buy these systems based on it's output versus
it's cost savings based on the summer only or on a whole typical
year?


Let me say again, I wasn't talking about annual output or how people
decide whether to buy solar panels or not.

I was talking about "The sun is overhead in the summer". If you want to
call it thread drift or OT, feel free.







South facing is best, sw is still
very good. North, forget about it. I've never seen an array
facing north, have you?

I have. Did you read Dad's page. It's not such a bad idea,depending on
the latitude and slope of the roof, and maybe there were other factors.

I just read it now. Let's start with this:

How much worse are north-facing solar modules?

"We start with a typical residential system in Charlotte, North Carolina. We designed and modeled the system in HelioScope, our sales and design software platform. With a 2/12 pitched roof...."


So, they don't start with a "typical residential system", unless 2/12
roofs are typical in NC. Are they typical in MD? They aren't typical
here, 6/12 would be typical. Then they say that if it were a shallow


Now you are talking about roof pitch when I was asking your question
about whether I had seen an array facing north. As I said, I have seen
it and it's not such a bad idea, depending on atleast 3 factors.

If you want to change the subject, fine, but I think you should make
clear that you're not relating your new topic with my topic.


I am relating it to your topic. You said someone in your
neighborhood got solar panels installed. That was the topic.
Seems to me that system, the economics of it, whether it's wise
to install or not depends on using it year round, not just during
the summer. You apparently then swallowed that article about north
facing roofs not affecting performance much without realizing they
start off with a very misleading analysis, they use a 2/12 roof and


No, I read that, and before you brought it up.

then say that it gets even better with a low pitch roof, 1/12?
2/12 is already a low pitch roof, the lowest code allows for shingles,
but then they want to sell solar systems, so they probably aren't
the most objective, eh?


I don't remember the details anymore.

The problem is that solar is only feasible for most people because
it's being subsidized, it has a long payback period and when you
further cripple it by putting
it on a north facing roof, it gets worse, a lot worse if it's
a typical 4/12 to 6/12 roof instead of a nearly flat roof in the example.


I said I'd seen it on north roofs, but those same people probably had
cells on the south roof too.



But since you've changed the subject, yes, there are 2/12 roofs here.

Probably some 1/12 roofs but I don't remember any in particular.


On homes here, a 2/12 roof isn't common, I've never seen a 1/12
roof. And where I have seen a 2/12 kind of roof, it's been as
just one smaller part of an overall structure, like part of a
contemporary house design. I have one roof plane close to that
on mine, over the garage, but it's not big enough for a typical
array either.

If you want to put a solar array facing north and understand the
economics, that's fine. I'm just saying if you read that article
where they claim to use a "typical" installation and then use


I don't think they called 2/12 typical.

"We start with a typical residential system in Charlotte, North
Carolina" I took that to mean the system itself was typical, and this
wasn't related to where it was installed.

"The tilt of the roof matters a great deal. If this same system was on a
shallow 1/12-pitched roof (with a tilt of 4.8°), then the south-facing

--- this doesn't mean there are such houses, just that this shows how
tilt matters.

array would produce 1,315 kWh/kWp, while the north-facing array would
produce 1,205—a difference of just 8%! If the roof were steeper (say,
4/12), then the north-facing array would be 29% worse.

The orientation of the house also matters. The above examples are for a
house facing perfectly north-south. But if the house is facing
south-southwest (30° off of perfectly south), then the equator-facing
roof is only 14% better. And if the roof is 60° off south, then the
equator-facing roof is only 8% better."

I might be able to do the math but with difficulty. Since I'm not
getting solar, I stipped reading.


a 2/12 roof and talk about a 1/12 roof, to show that the output
only takes a 16% hit, it's very misleading. Eventually they do
say that a more typical 4/12 roof takes a 29% hit, which is why
you don't typically see them on the north side of homes. It
changes the economics significantly.


Of course.


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