On 2017-05-28, T wrote:



Please note that GNU Cash DOES NOT do inventory or payroll.

Like I know!? I'm retired. I don't do that silliness, anymore.

Linux is NOT the end all/be all OS. It gives you a choice, which
Microsoft/Apple do not. That's my primary point.

nb

On 28 May 2017 00:38:03 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2017-05-28, T wrote:

Linux's downfall is the lack of applications.

Nonsense.

There is no Turbo Tax

GNUCash

No Quick Books

If I don't know what it is, so why woudld I care?

No M$ Office

Open Office, Libre Office, etc

So it depends, a crappy OS with five different apps to
do everything and gets infected with the turn of the wind
or a technically elegant OS with sparse amount of apps.

Yes, Winblows has more sophisticated applications (a term replaced by
"apps". cuz today's kids cannot express 4 syllables), but they are all
proprietary. IOW, they cost $$$$.

Yes, Winblows has more "accepted" applications/programs, but only cuz
stupid ppl are willing to spend $$$$ to solve their problems. I find
it hilarious that kids, today, can type faster with their thumbs than
I can by touch-typing on a regular keyboard, yet they are terrified of
the command line (CLI). WTF!?

nb
There's just about as many "free" and "open source" stuff for Windoze
as there is for Linux.

On 2017-05-28, wrote:

There's just about as many "free" and "open source" stuff for Windoze
as there is for Linux.

Something I learned many years ago!

FACT: Young Turk programmers, all taking college level CS courses, have
to prove themselves by creating/developing a program (application,
app, etc). They then offer it for free, online. I usta get all my Windows
"freeware" from online Windows repositories. Then, after awhile, if
the app is successful (mIRC), they start charging $$ for it.

Linux licenses are typically "copy-left" programs. Look it up!

nb

On 28 May 2017 01:21:52 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2017-05-28, wrote:

There's just about as many "free" and "open source" stuff for Windoze
as there is for Linux.

Something I learned many years ago!

FACT: Young Turk programmers, all taking college level CS courses, have
to prove themselves by creating/developing a program (application,
app, etc). They then offer it for free, online. I usta get all my Windows
"freeware" from online Windows repositories. Then, after awhile, if
the app is successful (mIRC), they start charging $$ for it.

Linux licenses are typically "copy-left" programs. Look it up!

nb
Who gives a hoot?

Shadow wrote:
The main thing is, DO NOT INSTALL anything other than what your package manager offers. Installation is automatic and all dependencies are taken care of by the manager.
Anything downloaded separately (like Oracle Java) will be a massive security hazard, and unless you are proficient with fixing Linux code, avoid it like the plague.


You don't trust Oracle, or is something else going on that I am unaware
of? One of the reasons I installed Linux (on the side) was to have a
"sandbox" to run Java applications that I don't have to trust.

On 05/27/2017 05:57 PM, notbob wrote:
On 2017-05-28, T wrote:



Please note that GNU Cash DOES NOT do inventory or payroll.

Like I know!? I'm retired. I don't do that silliness, anymore.

Linux is NOT the end all/be all OS. It gives you a choice, which
Microsoft/Apple do not. That's my primary point.

nb


That is what I love about Linux too. It is wide open
and the innovation is constant.

Apple is the worst when it comes to the vendor lock
in straight jacket.

After Frankenstein (w8) and Son-of-Frankenstein (W-Nein,
oops, ten) I can't really say what M$ is thinking. I
just wish they smoke a better brand of banana peal
when they think this s*** up.

On 05/27/2017 05:56 PM, wrote:
On 28 May 2017 00:11:13 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2017-05-28, wrote:

Linux is a "religion" to some.

Not I! I'm pretty much a Linux non-zealot. I jes got tired of
having my Windows boxes hacked, so changed to Linux (I still have one
XP netbook, which I rarely take online).

Better? Of course. Never been hacked and I have a choice! With
Windows, you have no choice. It's as simple as that.

nb
Never been hacked and I've been using windows since Windows 2. It's as
simple as THAT.
I started usinf Windows on my own computer with Windows for Workgroups
3.1?.


WFW 3.11 was sweet! I installed it to solve a zillion
problems with Windows, even those not on a network.

On 05/27/2017 06:12 PM, notbob wrote:
Obviously, you stick with
more tame websites.

The bad guys try to break into those sites with the most hit.
They are usually social type web sites. "Bill Clinton got
a new girl friend, what happened on the bachelor, etc.."

Got an old guy with dementia who surfs pron sites to
kill the boredom. He gets hit with everything!
Fortunately, I don't think he remembers who I am.

On 5/27/2017 5:38 PM, notbob wrote:
On 2017-05-28, T wrote:

Linux's downfall is the lack of applications.

Nonsense.

There is no Turbo Tax

GNUCash

No Quick Books

If I don't know what it is, so why woudld I care?

No M$ Office

Open Office, Libre Office, etc

So it depends, a crappy OS with five different apps to
do everything and gets infected with the turn of the wind
or a technically elegant OS with sparse amount of apps.

Yes, Winblows has more sophisticated applications (a term replaced by
"apps". cuz today's kids cannot express 4 syllables), but they are all
proprietary. IOW, they cost $$$$.

Yes, Winblows has more "accepted" applications/programs, but only cuz
stupid ppl are willing to spend $$$$ to solve their problems. I find
it hilarious that kids, today, can type faster with their thumbs than
I can by touch-typing on a regular keyboard, yet they are terrified of
the command line (CLI). WTF!?

nb

Try comparing apples to apples. Have one of your kids configure GRUB
and see how fast they type. They don't like CLI because they
have no idea WHAT to type and could care less.

Copy a file with a complex file name from one directory to another
six levels of directories away, using the CLI. I'll do it with a mouse
and we'll see who gets it right first...there, I'm done.
CLI has limited utility and even that's because nobody bothered to
write a user interface for it.

GUI encapsulates the entire set of command line options and source/targets
right there on the screen. You don't have to remember some
oddly-named parameter that works differently from the same parameter
used with another command. You don't have to know or care whether
you have grub1 or grub2 or legacy grub or...It's all right there on the
GUI screen for the exact version you're calling.

On 2017-05-27, wrote:
I agree 110% - after working in the computer support business for
over 26 years. Is windows perfect? Far from it - but it's about as
good as it gets, in the big picture.

Well, you're still pretty new at this stuff so it's understandable you'd
consider Windows to be "as good as it gets." (I find that attitude common
with neophytes who really have not been exposed to anything else.)

It really depends of course on the needs of the user what is going to
work best. I have not used Windows for a very long time and do not miss
it.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 5/27/2017 5:58 PM, wrote:
On 28 May 2017 00:38:03 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2017-05-28, T wrote:

Linux's downfall is the lack of applications.

Nonsense.

There is no Turbo Tax

GNUCash

No Quick Books

If I don't know what it is, so why woudld I care?

No M$ Office

Open Office, Libre Office, etc

So it depends, a crappy OS with five different apps to
do everything and gets infected with the turn of the wind
or a technically elegant OS with sparse amount of apps.

Yes, Winblows has more sophisticated applications (a term replaced by
"apps". cuz today's kids cannot express 4 syllables), but they are all
proprietary. IOW, they cost $$$$.

Yes, Winblows has more "accepted" applications/programs, but only cuz
stupid ppl are willing to spend $$$$ to solve their problems. I find
it hilarious that kids, today, can type faster with their thumbs than
I can by touch-typing on a regular keyboard, yet they are terrified of
the command line (CLI). WTF!?

nb
There's just about as many "free" and "open source" stuff for Windoze
as there is for Linux.

If you live in a vacuum and are willing to live with whatever you get with
linux, you're good to go. But don't expect your peeps to change the way
they do things so they can stay compatible with you.

On 05/26/2017 08:30 AM, wrote:
I can no longer activate Windows XP on my desktop computer, even using the various go-arounds offered on the net. I can afford Windows 10 and so on, but I have given too many hours over the years to its Regedit, restore yada features. I do not need bells and whistles. I need a decent word processor, spreadsheet, pdf viewer. I have a small Chromebook as my second computer. For anything serious, I can use my little Chromebook or go to the public library.

I am ready to try a free alternative operating system, such as Linux's Ubuntu.

If you use a free operating system, can you post your thumbs up or thumbs down for it compared to Windows?



Here is a nice list of alternative software for Linux:

http://alternativeto.net/platform/linux/

On Sun, 28 May 2017 02:49:39 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake
wrote:

On 2017-05-27, wrote:
I agree 110% - after working in the computer support business for
over 26 years. Is windows perfect? Far from it - but it's about as
good as it gets, in the big picture.

Well, you're still pretty new at this stuff so it's understandable you'd
consider Windows to be "as good as it gets." (I find that attitude common
with neophytes who really have not been exposed to anything else.)

It really depends of course on the needs of the user what is going to
work best. I have not used Windows for a very long time and do not miss
it.
n 26 years in the computer world is pretty well irrelevant. If you
want to work with 30 year old computer programs and technology, be my
guest.

On Sat, 27 May 2017 19:49:56 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/27/2017 5:58 PM, wrote:
On 28 May 2017 00:38:03 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2017-05-28, T wrote:

Linux's downfall is the lack of applications.

Nonsense.

There is no Turbo Tax

GNUCash

No Quick Books

If I don't know what it is, so why woudld I care?

No M$ Office

Open Office, Libre Office, etc

So it depends, a crappy OS with five different apps to
do everything and gets infected with the turn of the wind
or a technically elegant OS with sparse amount of apps.

Yes, Winblows has more sophisticated applications (a term replaced by
"apps". cuz today's kids cannot express 4 syllables), but they are all
proprietary. IOW, they cost $$$$.

Yes, Winblows has more "accepted" applications/programs, but only cuz
stupid ppl are willing to spend $$$$ to solve their problems. I find
it hilarious that kids, today, can type faster with their thumbs than
I can by touch-typing on a regular keyboard, yet they are terrified of
the command line (CLI). WTF!?

nb
There's just about as many "free" and "open source" stuff for Windoze
as there is for Linux.

If you live in a vacuum and are willing to live with whatever you get with
linux, you're good to go. But don't expect your peeps to change the way
they do things so they can stay compatible with you.
And I double dog dare you to run a large commercial insurance
brokerage using linux on the desktop!!!! Even try running a decent
sised manufacturing and distribution business running Linux on the
desktop, in HR, Shipping and recieving, packing, and shop floor
inventory and BOM apps, including EDI with all your customers across
North America and world wide.

On 2017-05-28, T wrote:

Got an old guy with dementia who surfs pron sites to
kill the boredom. He gets hit with everything!
Fortunately, I don't think he remembers who I am.

Wait! ....you talkin'.....??

On 2017-05-28, mike wrote:

your peeps to change the way.....

WTF are "your peeps"!?

Damn kids......

nb

wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2017 19:49:56 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/27/2017 5:58 PM, wrote:
On 28 May 2017 00:38:03 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2017-05-28, T wrote:

Linux's downfall is the lack of applications.
Nonsense.

There is no Turbo Tax
GNUCash

No Quick Books
If I don't know what it is, so why woudld I care?

No M$ Office
Open Office, Libre Office, etc

So it depends, a crappy OS with five different apps to
do everything and gets infected with the turn of the wind
or a technically elegant OS with sparse amount of apps.
Yes, Winblows has more sophisticated applications (a term replaced by
"apps". cuz today's kids cannot express 4 syllables), but they are all
proprietary. IOW, they cost $$$$.

Yes, Winblows has more "accepted" applications/programs, but only cuz
stupid ppl are willing to spend $$$$ to solve their problems. I find
it hilarious that kids, today, can type faster with their thumbs than
I can by touch-typing on a regular keyboard, yet they are terrified of
the command line (CLI). WTF!?

nb
There's just about as many "free" and "open source" stuff for Windoze
as there is for Linux.

If you live in a vacuum and are willing to live with whatever you get with
linux, you're good to go. But don't expect your peeps to change the way
they do things so they can stay compatible with you.
And I double dog dare you to run a large commercial insurance
brokerage using linux on the desktop!!!! Even try running a decent
sised manufacturing and distribution business running Linux on the
desktop, in HR, Shipping and recieving, packing, and shop floor
inventory and BOM apps, including EDI with all your customers across
North America and world wide.

I would guess that many companies like Amazon use database software
running on Linux in most cases (as it's "free"). I wouldn't really
expect to run any large company from a single desktop... I have several
desktops where I live and we are not running a business.

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 10:30:13 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I can no longer activate Windows XP on my desktop computer, even using the various go-arounds offered on the net. I can afford Windows 10 and so on, but I have given too many hours over the years to its Regedit, restore yada features. I do not need bells and whistles. I need a decent word processor, spreadsheet, pdf viewer. I have a small Chromebook as my second computer.. For anything serious, I can use my little Chromebook or go to the public library.

I am ready to try a free alternative operating system, such as Linux's Ubuntu.

If you use a free operating system, can you post your thumbs up or thumbs down for it compared to Windows?


I have an old laptop that I'm going to try loading True OS formerly PC-BSD on. It has Ubuntu on it now but I want to play with something else. I had PC-BSD on a desktop some years back and I liked it. I'm interested in how the OS has matured. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=trueos

https://www.trueos.org/

[8~{} Uncle OS Monster

On 2017-05-28, wrote:
n 26 years in the computer world is pretty well irrelevant. If you
want to work with 30 year old computer programs and technology, be my
guest.

I work with what in my judgement is best for my own needs and for
whatever project(s) I may be working on.

What you consider to be "30 year old computer programs and technology" has
taken the world by storm. In every area of computing except traditional
desktop systems, some form of Linux/Unix is employed. For better or worse
it is what a large part of the technological world runs on.

I come from a non-Microsoft background, starting with systems that
employed punch cards and paper tape. I've never had much use for that
company or its software, and in fact my own business runs completely free
of Microsoft products. (Of course if someone else wants or needs them
that is their own decision to make.)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 28 May 2017 03:18:56 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 27 May 2017 03:59:46p, Bill told us...

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Sat 27 May 2017 12:11:23p, Bill told us...

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Sat 27 May 2017 08:53:40a, Frank told us...

On 5/27/2017 12:01 AM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Fri 26 May 2017 06:59:29p, songbird told us...

wrote: ...
I am ready to try a free alternative operating system, such
as Linux's Ubuntu.

If you use a free operating system, can you post your
thumbs up or thumbs down for it compared to Windows?
certainly give it a try.

i've been running Debian for many years and Ubuntu is
based upon Debian, but is supposedly easier to use.

there will be a learning curve, but if you have time
i consider it time well spent. i like puzzles instead
of watching tv anyways...

i can't even remember the last time i booted my
other machine which has win98 on it, the battery has
probably died by now (it also has Debian on it).


songbird

Certainly there are alternative operating systems other than
Windows. Do I pesonally want to use them? A definite no. I
don't want to spend (waste) my time "making" something work,
whereas WINDows 10 will be 100% compatible with my hardware,
other software, peripherals, all the drivers and firmware,
etc. Windows 10 allows me to USE my system rather than
playing with it.

I know that all you opponents will not agree. :-)

I agree with you but I applaud their efforts. Everybody wins
when there is competition.

Oh, I have no problem with what others do. I do have a problem
when they tell me what I should. FWIW, between Microsoft and
Apple, I don't see a snowball's chance in hell of any other
others ever becoming conpetitive with those two behemoths, at
least not in my lifetime.
I think you are overlooking Google and its Android platform.



AFAIK, neither are platforms used on desktop computers. Some of
Google's software, yes, but not their OS. I use Android on my
cell phone and find that it's appropriate there.


What I think you were overlooking is the significance of the
platform (when you compared it to MS's product and Apple's
products). I heard someone say last week, "The phone is the new
TV"; I think it's fair to say that the new "phones" go along way
towards replacing a desktop too for a lot of people as well.



I don't think I'm overlooking it at all. Granted, smart phones are
definitely small computers but they will never replace a deskstop
computer in my world. If smart phones are replacing desktops for a
lot of people, then they probably don't know that much about desktop
computer capabilities.
Love to see someone run Autocad or SolidWorks on their phone!! Or set
up a 300 column spreadsheet.They are pretty useless even as a serious
web browser, and without a physical keyboard like a 'berry, pretty
useless for serious email (or word processing) as well. Even with my
'berry I wouldn't want to write a manuscript.
I can access the company network VPN from my phone, but running any
of the applications would be virtually impossible - even using it to
remote control my desktop. My phone will NEVER replace my desktop.
Even a tablet, without an external keyboard, is only of limited
usefullness. With the keyboard may as well have a laptop.

On Sun, 28 May 2017 00:28:09 -0400, Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2017 19:49:56 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/27/2017 5:58 PM, wrote:
On 28 May 2017 00:38:03 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2017-05-28, T wrote:

Linux's downfall is the lack of applications.
Nonsense.

There is no Turbo Tax
GNUCash

No Quick Books
If I don't know what it is, so why woudld I care?

No M$ Office
Open Office, Libre Office, etc

So it depends, a crappy OS with five different apps to
do everything and gets infected with the turn of the wind
or a technically elegant OS with sparse amount of apps.
Yes, Winblows has more sophisticated applications (a term replaced by
"apps". cuz today's kids cannot express 4 syllables), but they are all
proprietary. IOW, they cost $$$$.

Yes, Winblows has more "accepted" applications/programs, but only cuz
stupid ppl are willing to spend $$$$ to solve their problems. I find
it hilarious that kids, today, can type faster with their thumbs than
I can by touch-typing on a regular keyboard, yet they are terrified of
the command line (CLI). WTF!?

nb
There's just about as many "free" and "open source" stuff for Windoze
as there is for Linux.

If you live in a vacuum and are willing to live with whatever you get with
linux, you're good to go. But don't expect your peeps to change the way
they do things so they can stay compatible with you.
And I double dog dare you to run a large commercial insurance
brokerage using linux on the desktop!!!! Even try running a decent
sised manufacturing and distribution business running Linux on the
desktop, in HR, Shipping and recieving, packing, and shop floor
inventory and BOM apps, including EDI with all your customers across
North America and world wide.

I would guess that many companies like Amazon use database software
running on Linux in most cases (as it's "free"). I wouldn't really
expect to run any large company from a single desktop... I have several
desktops where I live and we are not running a business.
57 and counting. The files are all on a NAS attached to a windows
Server 2012 - we ditched the 'nix box about 6 years ago, when we
upgraded the system from the old Basic 4 dumb terminals to Win-Boxes
and moved to the client server model of the database software. A lot
less trouble than the old system -
Can't for the life of me remember the name of the development system
used at the moment - - - -

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 10:30:13 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I can no longer activate Windows XP on my desktop computer, even using the various go-arounds offered on the net. I can afford Windows 10 and so on, but I have given too many hours over the years to its Regedit, restore yada features. I do not need bells and whistles. I need a decent word processor, spreadsheet, pdf viewer. I have a small Chromebook as my second computer.. For anything serious, I can use my little Chromebook or go to the public library.

I am ready to try a free alternative operating system, such as Linux's Ubuntu.

If you use a free operating system, can you post your thumbs up or thumbs down for it compared to Windows?

I use Ubuntu Mate.

Excellent O.S.

Andy

On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 7:00:49 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Sat 27 May 2017 12:11:23p, Bill told us...

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Sat 27 May 2017 08:53:40a, Frank told us...

On 5/27/2017 12:01 AM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Fri 26 May 2017 06:59:29p, songbird told us...

wrote: ...
I am ready to try a free alternative operating system, such
as Linux's Ubuntu.

If you use a free operating system, can you post your thumbs
up or thumbs down for it compared to Windows?
certainly give it a try.

i've been running Debian for many years and Ubuntu is
based upon Debian, but is supposedly easier to use.

there will be a learning curve, but if you have time
i consider it time well spent. i like puzzles instead
of watching tv anyways...

i can't even remember the last time i booted my
other machine which has win98 on it, the battery has
probably died by now (it also has Debian on it).


songbird

Certainly there are alternative operating systems other than
Windows. Do I pesonally want to use them? A definite no. I
don't want to spend (waste) my time "making" something work,
whereas WINDows 10 will be 100% compatible with my hardware,
other software, peripherals, all the drivers and firmware, etc.
Windows 10 allows me to USE my system rather than playing with
it.

I know that all you opponents will not agree. :-)

I agree with you but I applaud their efforts. Everybody wins
when there is competition.

Oh, I have no problem with what others do. I do have a problem
when they tell me what I should. FWIW, between Microsoft and
Apple, I don't see a snowball's chance in hell of any other
others ever becoming conpetitive with those two behemoths, at
least not in my lifetime.
I think you are overlooking Google and its Android platform.



AFAIK, neither are platforms used on desktop computers. Some of
Google's software, yes, but not their OS. I use Android on my cell
phone and find that it's appropriate there.


What I think you were overlooking is the significance of the platform
(when you compared it to MS's product and Apple's products). I heard
someone say last week, "The phone is the new TV"; I think it's fair to
say that the new "phones" go along way towards replacing a desktop too
for a lot of people as well.

That's right. A decade ago many homes had more than one PC, some
several. Now it's more common for there to be less PCs, the extra
ones being replaced by phones and tablets, both of which offer what
typical users were using those other PCs for.

http://static1.businessinsider.com/i...0113_pc_bi.png

PC sales have been dropping substantially for 4 consecutive years and
are at 8 year lows.

On 5/30/2017 6:55 AM, Bud Frede wrote:
Wayne Boatwright writes:



Oh, I have no problem with what others do. I do have a problem when
they tell me what I should. FWIW, between Microsoft and Apple, I
don't see a snowball's chance in hell of any other others ever
becoming conpetitive with those two behemoths, at least not in my
lifetime.

Mobile devices are taking over for most users, and Microsoft doesn't
really have anything to offer for mobile devices.

I'd also note that Free Software doesn't have to be "conpetitive" (sic)
in terms of unit sales to the mass market. As long as there are people
who like developing it and people who like to use it, it's automatically
a success.
Define the criteria carefully and everything is a success.
Desktop linux is extremely successful among those who use it.
I choose installed base as the metric. It's hard to call it a success
if you can't give it away.
I've installed desktop linux dozens of times over the years.
Do I count as two dozen users?
I've probably
got 5 disks I could plug in and run it instantly. I could do 90% of
what I do without incident. Problem is that
it takes about five minutes to miss something that I can do easily
with windows (and gave up after several serious efforts to implement
in linux) and swap out the disk.

You mentioned in another post that you prefer to use your computer
rather than fiddle with it. That's exactly why I use Linux. Years ago
I grew tired of all the problems that Windows has and decided to see if
I could do without it. I tried Apple's alternatives, but found them to
be much more expensive and rather restrictive.

You're free to use whatever software you want, but I'd suggest that an
investment in learning Linux could pay dividends in the long run. I find
that my hardware lasts longer with Linux because it consumes less
resources and I don't have to continually upgrade when my computer gets
slow.

I also don't have to switch to whatever Microsoft decides is their UI
flavor of the month. The desktop environment I use has been around for
many years and while it has evolved, it hasn't radically changed like
Windows has over and over.
I'd agree with the premise. Somewhere around windows 95 I decided to use
as little MS software as possible. I use a lot of software originally
designed for linux then ported to windows. Icons on the desktop for
virtually everything make the OS version mostly irrelevant.
One of my desktop linux gripes is that each version seems to arbitrarily
change the way users create shortcuts. Did the concept of drag and drop
get lost in the linux vortex?

It's not about the details of the user interface. You can learn to use
any interface. Problem is that it's not stable or self consistent.
And it's not worth the change if it provides no tangible benefit.
Windows users and linux users have very different views of tangible
benefits.
I tried to switch to open office back in the day. It worked all the time
in isolation. But there were issues with MSOffice compatibility.
And the user interface was so different that I spent most of my time
looking for the right menu. After a few weeks, I threw in the towel
and reinstalled an ancient version of MSOffice. Having MSOffice on
one machine and Open office on another was an operational disaster.
That's a big problem with people who have linux at home and windows
at work. It's an operational nightmare prone to error.

Underneath the GUI is a very capable command line environment that has a
long and rich history. I've been using it and learning more about it for
over 20 years, and will continue to do so.

You do so because you like doing so. Nothing wrong with having a hobby.
Go ahead, brag about your superiority. Your peeps will respect you.

Your television probably has a remote. But, there's a rich set of buttons
on the machine. How often do you walk over to the TV to change the
volume? There's likely a test mode that lets you do additional
things to bend the machine to your will. How often do you use that?
Cars have automatic transmissions because people like them.
Many people couldn't drive a technically superior 'stick' and could care
less.
I have a thermostat that keeps my house at whatever temperature I like.
I have a fireplace in case I want to do it the hard way. I'll let you
know if I ever do that...don't hold your breath. I buy food at the store
instead of growing it because it frees me to do other things I want.
If I actually wanted to cook something from scratch,
I'd have to find the manual, decide on which of the dozen alternative
recipes to try,
go to the repository to get ingredients, futz with the tools and
techniques, clean up the mess and keep trying different recipes
until I got something that met my desires.
Great plan for a chef. For me, not so much. I don't wanna be a chef.
I'd rather eat it than mess with cooking it.
Toilets flush so we don't have to carry
a bucket out to the street. Sure, we could do that, but technology
permits us to do better.



The things I've learned about Linux (and Unix) can also carry over to
other OSs like FreeBSD or even Mac OS X if I decide to use those.

You're saying that learning about Linux carries over to other linuxes.
Sure it does. Your learning prepares you to ferret out the differences
and conditions you to be OK with having to figure out the seemingly
random changes in each version/release.

One of the big reasons that desktop linux is not more
popular is the high barrier to entry. If linux developers wanted to,
they'd take down the "you're too stupid to use linux" sign and
pave a better path from the dominant OS to allow new users to
come. Let their knowledge of windows carry over to operating desktop
linux. I don't mean just adding an icon they can click to
surf the web. I mean letting them do all the functions they now enjoy.
Better program integration. Better integration with their peeps
who have not yet made the transition.

Desktop linux is antisocial. Operated in a vacuum, one might decide
that it offers everything they need and a hobby to fill their solitude.
Anyone who suggests that Desktop linux become more social with the
way the world works is berated, with prejudice. That's not the
way to win friends.

The tail will not wag the dog. Millions of linux users will not
change the attitude of Billions of windows users.
Take something as simple as Firefox. Somebody decided to put the
configuration function a different place in the menu structure.
Little things like that make the transition more difficult/annoying.
This
knowledge also can apply to the popular mobile devices, and the wide
array of devices that are making up the Internet of Things.

The chances are very good that you own multiple devices that use Linux
(or a Unix-like OS) and may not even know it.

YES, YES, YES!!! That's exactly the point. You shouldn't have to know
anything about the underlying OS to make it do what you want. If desktop
linux operated that way, current windows users could jump ship with ease.
Every other windows release has been a public relations nightmare.
People stick with it because there is no viable alternative.
Linux developers have ignored several opportunities to have a
major increase in user acceptance of desktop linux.

Linux, the OS, is plenty good.
Apps are mostly tolerable. From my perspective, many apps
are hobby projects presented as solutions. Somebody solved
the 80% of the problem that they needed and moved on.
So, we have dozens of apps solving different 80% of the problem.
A commercial app would likely have better coverage in ONE app.
Same thing is true of different distros. It's CHAOS.
Like the song says, "ninety-nine and a half won't do." 80%
is a non-starter.
Glue it together into A stable Desktop Computing Platform.
Round off the rough edges.
Add more GUI, that operates consistently.
QUIT FORKING IT INTO CHAOS!


My fund of knowledge
applies to those devices quite well. Does yours?
YES! You're not the only smart person on the planet.

On Sat, 27 May 2017 21:53:22 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Shadow wrote:
The main thing is, DO NOT INSTALL anything other than what your package manager offers. Installation is automatic and all dependencies are taken care of by the manager.
Anything downloaded separately (like Oracle Java) will be a massive security hazard, and unless you are proficient with fixing Linux code, avoid it like the plague.


You don't trust Oracle, or is something else going on that I am unaware
of? One of the reasons I installed Linux (on the side) was to have a
"sandbox" to run Java applications that I don't have to trust.

Every Java runtime update "fixes" a number of "critical
vulnerabilities" that can allow remote access or execution and are
being exploited in the wild.
The funny thing is the vulnerabilities are always introduced
by previous updates. They weren't there before.
So I don't trust them.

Same with Win 10. "Security updates" disable anti-datamining
fixes and open your PC for exploit. Which is why anti-telemetry
software is updated every time an "official" patch comes out.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Sat, 27 May 2017 19:46:57 -0700, mike wrote:

You don't have to remember some
oddly-named parameter that works differently from the same parameter
used with another command.

That's what help and man pages are for, there are usually more
options than you will ever find in a GUI program.
Though the GUI is faster for normal users, the command line is
far more powerful. For example, I would never use a GUI to encode
video. It's too hard to get the end result I want.

BTW What's the GUI for turning Win 10 telemetry (datamining)
COMPLETELY off ?
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Sat, 27 May 2017 23:14:20 -0400, wrote:

And I double dog dare you to run a large commercial insurance
brokerage using linux on the desktop!!!! Even try running a decent
sised manufacturing and distribution business running Linux on the
desktop, in HR, Shipping and recieving, packing, and shop floor
inventory and BOM apps, including EDI with all your customers across
North America and world wide.

Right. Amazon does not use "a desktop" either.
It runs on Linux, though.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On 28 May 2017 04:16:35 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2017-05-28, mike wrote:

your peeps to change the way.....

WTF are "your peeps"!?

I think he means people that use Linux. Like Amazon, Glugle,
FaceKook etc
Even Microsoft has a lot of its outsourced mirrors on Linux
servers.
No wonder they all went bust.
[]'s

Damn kids......

nb
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Sat, 27 May 2017 21:43:46 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 10:30:13 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I can no longer activate Windows XP on my desktop computer, even using the various go-arounds offered on the net. I can afford Windows 10 and so on, but I have given too many hours over the years to its Regedit, restore yada features. I do not need bells and whistles. I need a decent word processor, spreadsheet, pdf viewer. I have a small Chromebook as my second computer. For anything serious, I can use my little Chromebook or go to the public library.

I am ready to try a free alternative operating system, such as Linux's Ubuntu.

If you use a free operating system, can you post your thumbs up or thumbs down for it compared to Windows?


I have an old laptop that I'm going to try loading True OS formerly PC-BSD on. It has Ubuntu on it now but I want to play with something else. I had PC-BSD on a desktop some years back and I liked it. I'm interested in how the OS has matured. ?(?)?

https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=trueos

https://www.trueos.org/


Devuan has been finally released. It's basically Debian
without the controversial systemd

I'll wait to see how it fares, and replace my Debian with it
if there are not too many glitches.

https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On 5/30/2017 2:00 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sat, 27 May 2017 21:43:46 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 10:30:13 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I can no longer activate Windows XP on my desktop computer, even using the various go-arounds offered on the net. I can afford Windows 10 and so on, but I have given too many hours over the years to its Regedit, restore yada features. I do not need bells and whistles. I need a decent word processor, spreadsheet, pdf viewer. I have a small Chromebook as my second computer. For anything serious, I can use my little Chromebook or go to the public library.

I am ready to try a free alternative operating system, such as Linux's Ubuntu.

If you use a free operating system, can you post your thumbs up or thumbs down for it compared to Windows?


I have an old laptop that I'm going to try loading True OS formerly PC-BSD on. It has Ubuntu on it now but I want to play with something else. I had PC-BSD on a desktop some years back and I liked it. I'm interested in how the OS has matured. ?(?)?

https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=trueos

https://www.trueos.org/

If you have an old laptop, determine whether it supports PAE and download
the correct version of the OS.


Devuan has been finally released. It's basically Debian
without the controversial systemd

I'll wait to see how it fares, and replace my Debian with it
if there are not too many glitches.

https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan
[]'s

On Tue, 30 May 2017 17:46:11 -0300, Shadow wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2017 23:14:20 -0400, wrote:

And I double dog dare you to run a large commercial insurance
brokerage using linux on the desktop!!!! Even try running a decent
sised manufacturing and distribution business running Linux on the
desktop, in HR, Shipping and recieving, packing, and shop floor
inventory and BOM apps, including EDI with all your customers across
North America and world wide.

Right. Amazon does not use "a desktop" either.
It runs on Linux, though.
[]'s
It runs linux on the SERVER. Not every employee in the office uses
Linux "on the desktop" - and darn right they use a "desktop" The
desktop app running on WinDoze interfaces with the 'nix box at the
database level and talks WinDoze compatible to the outside world.

On 05/31/2017 03:07 AM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
I have never had a problem with Windows. I have used Linix and Unix
in the work environment and absolutel hated it. I wold never put on
my own PC.

If you are satisfied with Windows, fine. However saying you've never had
a problem with Windows suggests your use has been quite casual.

On Thu, 01 Jun 2017 03:11:11 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Wed 31 May 2017 07:07:47a, rbowman told us...

On 05/31/2017 03:07 AM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
I have never had a problem with Windows. I have used Linix and
Unix in the work environment and absolutel hated it. I wold
never put on my own PC.

If you are satisfied with Windows, fine. However saying you've
never had a problem with Windows suggests your use has been quite
casual.


I'm a constant user. Before I retired I worked in many IT positions
including a Windows network administrator and technician. I'm pretty
fanatical about maintaining all the computers in our home. If you
learn how to avoid problems, you don't generally have problems.
There are MANY serious Windows users who have virtually no problems -
and perhaps as many 'Nix users who have had a LOT of problems (and
have given up on the OS)

The current Apple OS is basically a 'Nix distro underneath. When my
wife worked at Health Services at Laurier U, they used Mac Medical,
while I administered a Windows network. The Mac system was down MANY
times while the Windows system was virtually rock solid.

Macintosh - Machine Always Crashes, If Not The Operating System Hangs

On Thu, 01 Jun 2017 04:32:22 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Wed 31 May 2017 08:45:08p, told us...

On Thu, 01 Jun 2017 03:11:11 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Wed 31 May 2017 07:07:47a, rbowman told us...

On 05/31/2017 03:07 AM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
I have never had a problem with Windows. I have used Linix and
Unix in the work environment and absolutel hated it. I wold
never put on my own PC.

If you are satisfied with Windows, fine. However saying you've
never had a problem with Windows suggests your use has been
quite casual.


I'm a constant user. Before I retired I worked in many IT
positions including a Windows network administrator and
technician. I'm pretty fanatical about maintaining all the
computers in our home. If you learn how to avoid problems, you
don't generally have problems.
There are MANY serious Windows users who have virtually no
problems -
and perhaps as many 'Nix users who have had a LOT of problems (and
have given up on the OS)

The current Apple OS is basically a 'Nix distro underneath. When
my wife worked at Health Services at Laurier U, they used Mac
Medical, while I administered a Windows network. The Mac system
was down MANY times while the Windows system was virtually rock
solid.

Macintosh - Machine Always Crashes, If Not The Operating System
Hangs


Thanks. You are clearly someone who has the knowledge and
understandng.
Over 26 years of working daily with the darn "confusers" including
about 5 years in R&D

On 2017-06-01, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
Beleve me, I well understand. I clocked in around 35 years if you
count working with mainframe and mini computers at Bell Labs.
Piddling around with desktop machines of any ilk was like child's
play by comparison. The average person simply doesn't undersand and
doesn't want to. They think they're so smart working with their
little Linux and Unix boxes. Little do they know. They're welcome
to it, IMHO.

You newbies really are a hoot. I measure the uptime on my "little Linux
and Unix" boxes in years. But whatever, if you want to stay in the Windows
playpen you are welcome to it.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 06/01/2017 08:22 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
You newbies really are a hoot. I measure the uptime on my "little Linux
and Unix" boxes in years. But whatever, if you want to stay in the Windows
playpen you are welcome to it.

Yeah, it ****ed me off 51 days ago when the power was out longer than
the UPS could handle. Need to splice the pickup battery into the APC...

People who say five nines and Windows in the same breath are optimists.

We had one site that complained that our system crashed in the wee
hours. Turned out Server 2008 was configured to apply updates by
default. It did it's thing about 3AM on Patch Tuesday and rebooted like
a good Windows box. People dispatching emergency responders get a little
****ed when that happens. If something bad is going down at the time,
they get a lot ****ed.

Twenty years ago they were running RS/6000's but IBM priced themselves
out of the game. We shut our last RS/6000 box down about five years ago.
I don't know if it would still boot up or if we could still do an AIX
build. Probably, since we build most of the stuff on Linux.

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Thu 01 Jun 2017 07:22:55p, Roger Blake told us...

On 2017-06-01, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:
Beleve me, I well understand. I clocked in around 35 years if
you count working with mainframe and mini computers at Bell Labs.
Piddling around with desktop machines of any ilk was like
child's play by comparison. The average person simply doesn't
undersand and doesn't want to. They think they're so smart
working with their little Linux and Unix boxes. Little do they
know. They're welcome to it, IMHO.
You newbies really are a hoot. I measure the uptime on my "little
Linux and Unix" boxes in years. But whatever, if you want to stay
in the Windows playpen you are welcome to it.

You're so full of crap it makes my eyes water. I was working with Unix
on mini computers before you even knew what it was. I just prefer to
not have it on a personal computer.

You have to admit, in terms of "using/managing resources" Windows is a
joke.. it hardly tries.
I think that is embarrassing considering how long it has been out
there. For an upgrade, MS changes the desktop, or invades your privacy
more..

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Thu 01 Jun 2017 11:09:54p, Bill told us...

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Thu 01 Jun 2017 07:22:55p, Roger Blake told us...

On 2017-06-01, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:
Beleve me, I well understand. I clocked in around 35 years if
you count working with mainframe and mini computers at Bell
Labs.
Piddling around with desktop machines of any ilk was like
child's play by comparison. The average person simply doesn't
undersand and doesn't want to. They think they're so smart
working with their little Linux and Unix boxes. Little do they
know.
They're welcome to it, IMHO.
You newbies really are a hoot. I measure the uptime on my
"little Linux and Unix" boxes in years. But whatever, if you
want to stay in the Windows playpen you are welcome to it.

You're so full of crap it makes my eyes water. I was working
with Unix on mini computers before you even knew what it was. I
just prefer to not have it on a personal computer.

You have to admit, in terms of "using/managing resources" Windows
is a joke.. it hardly tries.
I think that is embarrassing considering how long it has been out
there. For an upgrade, MS changes the desktop, or invades your
privacy more..



I really don't care what you think or what you believe.


That's a sneaky way of avoiding my concerns! Why did you make this
personal?

On Wed, 31 May 2017 23:45:08 -0400, wrote:

The current Apple OS is basically a 'Nix distro underneath. When my
wife worked at Health Services at Laurier U, they used Mac Medical,
while I administered a Windows network. The Mac system was down MANY
times while the Windows system was virtually rock solid.

The NHS must have been using Macs then. 98% of the crippled
machines were running Win 7 (1% XP and 1% others, including Win 10).
No idea how they managed to install M$ on a Mac, but they were
certainly vulnerable to Wannacrypt.
None were using Linux
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Fri, 02 Jun 2017 05:20:14 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Thu 01 Jun 2017 07:22:55p, Roger Blake told us...

On 2017-06-01, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:
Beleve me, I well understand. I clocked in around 35 years if
you count working with mainframe and mini computers at Bell Labs.
Piddling around with desktop machines of any ilk was like
child's play by comparison. The average person simply doesn't
undersand and doesn't want to. They think they're so smart
working with their little Linux and Unix boxes. Little do they
know. They're welcome to it, IMHO.

You newbies really are a hoot. I measure the uptime on my "little
Linux and Unix" boxes in years. But whatever, if you want to stay
in the Windows playpen you are welcome to it.


You're so full of crap it makes my eyes water. I was working with Unix
on mini computers before you even knew what it was. I just prefer to
not have it on a personal computer.
The "up time" on my Windows boxes has regularly exceded 6 months -
and then all I do is reboot - and it's not because it locked up.