I just added on a room and getting ready to insulate. The old part of the
house has R-11, both walls and ceiling. What is the recommended insulation
these days for putting between 2 x 4's? Part of the roof for the new room
includes what was a porch and has only 2 x 4's, not 2 x 6's. Also, will
ceiling tile provide more R value than drywall?

Bob

3.5 " insulation is all you can get in a 2x4" stud space. There should
be some valueable info avail. on this topic thru a Google search. Im in
northern illinois and have 3.5 " in the walls and i had 18" blown in
the attic over the existing 6" batts. Made a big difference in the
heating bills. Get hold of some tight fitting thermopane windows too.

_____________________________________________

Have you hugged your A/C Tech today ?

_____________________________________________

What zone are you , where do you live. There is no place in the country
that has such a low R value as r 11 for ceilings unless you dont heat or
cool. Arnt you following code or pulling a permit. Insulation values
are only minimums so people can afford to heat and cool their homes
without going broke paying the utility co. My area zone 5 goes from
-20 to 100+ r 35 is code r 50- 60 is near optimal r 100 is optimal.
Codes were established with cheap energy. Sips construstion can be R
40 walls R 80 ceiling.

You have 2x4 for ceiling joists ? No permit eh, its gonna sag to.
Well you are doing everything else right R 11 ceilings , 2x4 joists,
gee why insulate at all it will save on material and labor, just use
ceiling tile, now you can buy a bigger Tee Vee

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...

You have 2x4 for ceiling joists ? No permit eh, its gonna sag to.
Well you are doing everything else right R 11 ceilings , 2x4 joists,
gee why insulate at all it will save on material and labor, just use
ceiling tile, now you can buy a bigger Tee Vee


Not all of us are as rich as you folks up north. This is a poverty area in
rural Tennessee and we make do with what we have. You wouldn't understand,
I'm sure. They don't do permits out here and there are no inspections. I
didn't build the house and R-11 is standard issue for poverty housing. By
the way, I don't own a TV. Again, you wouldn't understand with your attitude
against poor people. Now get in your Cadillac and find some more people to
make fun of.

Bob

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
3.5 " insulation is all you can get in a 2x4" stud space. There should
be some valueable info avail. on this topic thru a Google search. Im in
northern illinois and have 3.5 " in the walls and i had 18" blown in
the attic over the existing 6" batts. Made a big difference in the
heating bills. Get hold of some tight fitting thermopane windows too.


The roof is somewhat open. They have 2 x 6 joists on 24 inch centers. Over
that are 1 x 6 strips of lath with metal roofing screwed to the lath. The
ends of the corrugated roof are open so and there is a ridge vent so there
is plenty of air circulation. They build these 20 x 24 foot homes off site
and then truck them in. Everything is budget all the way. There is no access
at all to the attic except to remove a metal roof panel. However the side is
vinyl siding and they can easily blow in plenty of insulation, something
that I will have done before winter. The porch was open and joists are only
2 x 4, but it isn't standard #2 pine. It's some sort of hardwood rough cut
and a true 2 x 4. I added 8 feet in length to the porch so that it runs the
full 24 feet x 8 feet wide and then enclosed it. My joists are #2 pine 2 x 6
on 16 in centers instead of 24". So I can insulate my part as it should be,
but the old construction is something I'll have to live with unless I tear
everything done and start over. There is a limit as to how far I'm going to
go on a house that sells for $24,000.

Bob

Not trying to make fun of you, but a little research and higher- proper
R value and proper supports can save you alot more than your ISP
connection every month. Insulation is cheap, and the attic is the best
place to start since heat rises. In walls you are limited to 3.5" so
not much you can do. Drywall has no seams when finished , so less air
infiltration, plus no dust to fall on you and make you itch. Drywall= R
1 apx and shouldnt be used as a total R figure. Ceiling tile with the
seams allow for too much air to pass to be considered alone an R factor.
Check out Dow, Owens Corning, Celotex, Energy Star, EPA, and other Gov
sites that publish complete info on insulation, Zones, and all you need
to know on efficiency and insulation.

rck wrote:
I just added on a room and getting ready to insulate. The old part of the
house has R-11, both walls and ceiling. What is the recommended insulation
these days for putting between 2 x 4's? Part of the roof for the new room
includes what was a porch and has only 2 x 4's, not 2 x 6's. Also, will
ceiling tile provide more R value than drywall?

Bob


Hi
It is your local thing. Depends where you live.
Simply more is better but there is minimum needed per code.
Here(Alberta), wall is R20, ceiling is R40 minimum per code.
Tony

rck wrote:

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...

You have 2x4 for ceiling joists ? No permit eh, its gonna sag to.
Well you are doing everything else right R 11 ceilings , 2x4 joists,
gee why insulate at all it will save on material and labor, just use
ceiling tile, now you can buy a bigger Tee Vee



Not all of us are as rich as you folks up north. This is a poverty area in
rural Tennessee and we make do with what we have. You wouldn't understand,
I'm sure. They don't do permits out here and there are no inspections. I
didn't build the house and R-11 is standard issue for poverty housing. By
the way, I don't own a TV. Again, you wouldn't understand with your attitude
against poor people. Now get in your Cadillac and find some more people to
make fun of.

Bob


Hi,
Poor insulation costs more energy making you poorer!
Tony

rck wrote:

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...

3.5 " insulation is all you can get in a 2x4" stud space. There should
be some valueable info avail. on this topic thru a Google search. Im in
northern illinois and have 3.5 " in the walls and i had 18" blown in
the attic over the existing 6" batts. Made a big difference in the
heating bills. Get hold of some tight fitting thermopane windows too.



The roof is somewhat open. They have 2 x 6 joists on 24 inch centers. Over
that are 1 x 6 strips of lath with metal roofing screwed to the lath. The
ends of the corrugated roof are open so and there is a ridge vent so there
is plenty of air circulation. They build these 20 x 24 foot homes off site
and then truck them in. Everything is budget all the way. There is no access
at all to the attic except to remove a metal roof panel. However the side is
vinyl siding and they can easily blow in plenty of insulation, something
that I will have done before winter. The porch was open and joists are only
2 x 4, but it isn't standard #2 pine. It's some sort of hardwood rough cut
and a true 2 x 4. I added 8 feet in length to the porch so that it runs the
full 24 feet x 8 feet wide and then enclosed it. My joists are #2 pine 2 x 6
on 16 in centers instead of 24". So I can insulate my part as it should be,
but the old construction is something I'll have to live with unless I tear
everything done and start over. There is a limit as to how far I'm going to
go on a house that sells for $24,000.

Bob


Hi,
Whoa! Dubya is wasting billions on dumb war, and some people in U.S.
living in a house like that? My Gosh! I am at loss.
Tony
(a Canuck, way up North, today it's so cold, I had to start fire place
in the morning. Furnace ran all night. LOL)

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:nkjBc.824106$oR5.292001@pd7tw3no...
Hi,
Poor insulation costs more energy making you poorer!
Tony


Yes, that is why I asked the original question. I want to get the best that
I can afford. I understand it won't be like the rich folks have but I hope
it is better than what they originally put in this place when it was built.
This is not a severe climate like when I lived in New England with 30 below
in winter and also not like when I lived in Arizona with 120 degree
temperatures in summer. Middle Tennessee has a mild climate, an occasional
zero degree day or two but the norm is in the 20's during the coldest part
of winter and very often in the 50's. I don't have central heat so it's easy
to save by not heating the bedroom during the day and then not heating the
livingroom and kitchen at night.

Bob

rck wrote:

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:nkjBc.824106$oR5.292001@pd7tw3no...

Hi,
Poor insulation costs more energy making you poorer!
Tony



Yes, that is why I asked the original question. I want to get the best that
I can afford. I understand it won't be like the rich folks have but I hope
it is better than what they originally put in this place when it was built.
This is not a severe climate like when I lived in New England with 30 below
in winter and also not like when I lived in Arizona with 120 degree
temperatures in summer. Middle Tennessee has a mild climate, an occasional
zero degree day or two but the norm is in the 20's during the coldest part
of winter and very often in the 50's. I don't have central heat so it's easy
to save by not heating the bedroom during the day and then not heating the
livingroom and kitchen at night.

Bob


Hi,
Fiberglass loses R value when compressed. So in a 2X4 cavity snug fit
fiberglass will have about R12. Rigid styrofoam has more R value but it
costs more. Also sealing all the air infiltrating gaps is good idea as
well. Aand vapor barrier.
good luck,
Tony
(Cold rainy father's day. Wife and kids are taking me to Lobster feast
for a treat)

Red wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:14:36 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:


Hi,
Fiberglass loses R value when compressed.


Nonsense.

Hi,
I don't think you understand how insulation work. Do you know what
that letter R stands for? Took thermal dynamics in school?
Tony

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:gLkBc.824589$oR5.173590@pd7tw3no...
Red wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:14:36 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:


Hi,
Fiberglass loses R value when compressed.


Nonsense.

Hi,
I don't think you understand how insulation work. Do you know what
that letter R stands for? Took thermal dynamics in school?
Tony


My understanding is that the best insulator is dead air space and fiberglass
traps the air. If it is compressed, there is less air to insulate and more
fiberglass to conduct heat. Therefore fluffed up insulation is better than
compressed. Is my understanding of this correct?
Bob

Red wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:32:44 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:


Red wrote:


On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:14:36 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:



Hi,
Fiberglass loses R value when compressed.


Nonsense.


Hi,
I don't understand how insulation work.
Tony


A 6" batt in a 4" space loses R value but it is still higher than the R value of
a 4 inch batt.
Hi,
So, what's meaning of nonsense?
Topic closed.
Tony

rck wrote:

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:gLkBc.824589$oR5.173590@pd7tw3no...

Red wrote:


On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:14:36 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:



Hi,
Fiberglass loses R value when compressed.


Nonsense.


Hi,
I don't think you understand how insulation work. Do you know what
that letter R stands for? Took thermal dynamics in school?
Tony



My understanding is that the best insulator is dead air space and fiberglass
traps the air. If it is compressed, there is less air to insulate and more
fiberglass to conduct heat. Therefore fluffed up insulation is better than
compressed. Is my understanding of this correct?
Bob


Hi, Bob
You got it.
Thanks,
Tony

(HVAC fella) wrote in message ...
3.5 " insulation is all you can get in a 2x4" stud space. There should
be some valueable info avail. on this topic thru a Google search. Im in
northern illinois and have 3.5 " in the walls and i had 18" blown in
the attic over the existing 6" batts. Made a big difference in the
heating bills. Get hold of some tight fitting thermopane windows too.

_____________________________________________


Have you hugged your A/C Tech today ?

_____________________________________________
In fact, I discovered that U.S. batt insulation may improve if
slightly cysompressed.
Journal of Light Construction said nominal 6 inch pushed into nominal
4 inch space works.
I was told this was true during a seminar and asked JLC several years
ago.

Tom Baker

Tom, who promotes that thought , the Fiberglass manufacturers

In article zjkBc.791937$Pk3.246764@pd7tw1no, Tony Hwang wrote:

My health care cost is free. Most drugs are free, but some are covered
80% only(new expensive ones just hitting the market) Free hearing aid,
eye glasses, dentures if needed for seniors.

If you believe that you're *really* getting all that for free, then you're a
fool. Why do you think your taxes are so high? *Somebody* has to pay for it.

In article . net, "rck" wrote:

My understanding is that the best insulator is dead air space and fiberglass
traps the air. If it is compressed, there is less air to insulate and more
fiberglass to conduct heat. Therefore fluffed up insulation is better than
compressed. Is my understanding of this correct?

With the minor nit that hard vacuum is an even better insulator than dead air
space ... yes, your understanding is quite correct. Red doesn't know what he's
talking about.

m Ransley wrote:

What zone are you , where do you live. There is no place in the country
that has such a low R value as r 11 for ceilings unless you dont heat or
cool. Arnt you following code or pulling a permit. Insulation values
are only minimums so people can afford to heat and cool their homes
without going broke paying the utility co. My area zone 5 goes from
-20 to 100+ r 35 is code r 50- 60 is near optimal r 100 is optimal.
Codes were established with cheap energy. Sips construstion can be R
40 walls R 80 ceiling.

Lets see, the difference between an R50 surface and an R100 surface,
assuming a dT of 70F, is a little over 6000 BTU/sqft, per YEAR.
That works out to around 2000 watt-hours.
In RI, electricity costs in the vicinity of 6 cents/kwh.
Which means that the extra 50R of insulation is saving you
something on the order of 12 cents (US) per year, per square foot.
Since the R50 of insulation, in the form of deep fiberglass batts,
costs in the vicinity of $0.50 per square foot, that means that
the best *POSSIBLE* payback would be on the order of 4 years.

But normal people don't have to heat their homes to 70F above the
ambient temperature all year, so double that payback period.
If you're willing to tolerate a small amount of discomfort, and
let the indoor temperature swing from 65 or so in the winter to
75 or so in the summer, you can probably add another 4 years
or so to the payback period. If adding more insulation requires
paying for deeper studs and different construction, and if you
add in the interest on your money, you can probably add ANOTHER
4 years to your payback period..


You have 2x4 for ceiling joists ? No permit eh, its gonna sag to.

2x4s are adequate for a rafter spanning a porch extension which is
probably around 6' deep.

Yes, that is why I asked the original question. I want to get the best that
I can afford. I understand it won't be like the rich folks have but I hope
it is better than what they originally put in this place when it was built.
This is not a severe climate like when I lived in New England with 30 below
in winter and also not like when I lived in Arizona with 120 degree
temperatures in summer. Middle Tennessee has a mild climate, an occasional
zero degree day or two but the norm is in the 20's during the coldest part
of winter and very often in the 50's. I don't have central heat so it's easy
to save by not heating the bedroom during the day and then not heating the
livingroom and kitchen at night.

The way heat loss works, a small area with really low R values will
suck more heat out of the house than a large area with only moderate
R values. So if you have a choice between fixing single-pane
windows and adding another 4" of insulation in the attic, do the windows.
Deal with drafts and air-leaks first, THEN the ceiling, and THEN the
walls. If you've got the headroom, you can glue or screw rigid foam
to the underside of the ceiling, and then cover that with sheetrock.

--Goedjn

"default" wrote in message

In RI, electricity costs in the vicinity of 6 cents/kwh.

Are you serious? In CT we pay that for electricity, but pay almost that
much for distribution charges. 6¢ total seems awfully cheap in the
northeast.
Ed

Are you serious? In CT we pay that for electricity, but pay almost that
much for distribution charges. 6¢ total seems awfully cheap in the
northeast.
Ed

I didn't have my bill with me, so I yanked the "standard offer service"
rate off Narraganset electric's website
http://www.nationalgridus.com/narrag...4_standard.asp

I may well, have misinterpreted it. Maybe that *IS* the delivery charge,
and the actual energy costs are separate.

--Goedjn

Here we are 0.12kwh double your 0.6 and considering resale value, and
the fact that gas was at its highest last year and electric will be
going up with gas you can halve your payback estimates conservatively .
Standards today are like comparing standards of 40 yrs ago to today.
Bottom line, a good return, increased comfort, and a value that wont be
exceeded in 30 yrs

Plus Labor is the biggest factor in increasing later , my cost to
double up was i almost just material. Plus doing it later would make
working in the attic impossible and dangerous, my ceiling is the attic
floor.

Now factor in settling of insulation , I will measure mine soon but I
can visibly see its settled.

6 inch ? a joke , thats apx 21 , in the 30s that was ok, but not now.

Yes diminished returns are a fact, But I paid no more than 66 $ to
heat 1275 sq last year, the installer knew of similar houses wasting
700 a month , I did allot more than the attic , I did walls windows
foundation, floor. But my resale went up 30000.

Utility co has been out and say my costs are among the lowest if not
the lowest. Yes they worked on my meter and checked for taps.

Figure it this way pay now or pay allot more later. Nobody knows where
gas is going, leave it to alcaida and it will be 100 a barrel with NG
and electric following right along.

Trends for utilities show a doubling in 6-10 yrs and antiquitated
standards insure we will be a worlds leader in waste, as always.

Here we are 0.12kwh double your 0.6 and considering resale value, and
the fact that gas was at its highest last year and electric will be
going up with gas you can halve your payback estimates conservatively .
Standards today are like comparing standards of 40 yrs ago to today.
Bottom line, a good return, increased comfort, and a value that wont be
exceeded in 30 yrs

Plus Labor is the biggest factor in increasing later , my cost to
double up was i almost just material. Plus doing it later would make
working in the attic impossible and dangerous, my ceiling is the attic
floor.

Now factor in settling of insulation , I will measure mine soon but I
can visibly see its settled.

6 inch ? a joke , thats apx 21 , in the 30s that was ok, but not now.

Yes diminished returns are a fact, But I paid no more than 66 $ to
heat 1275 sq last year, the installer knew of similar houses wasting
700 a month , I did allot more than the attic , I did walls windows
foundation, floor. But my resale went up 30000.

Utility co has been out and say my costs are among the lowest if not
the lowest. Yes they worked on my meter and checked for taps.

Figure it this way pay now or pay allot more later. Nobody knows where
gas is going, leave it to alcaida and it will be 100 a barrel with NG
and electric following right along.

Trends for utilities show a doubling in 6-10 yrs and antiquitated
standards insure we will be a worlds leader in waste, as always.

"default" wrote in message
...


2x4s are adequate for a rafter spanning a porch extension which is
probably around 6' deep.

Minus the overhang from the main part of the house with 2 x 6, the actual
2x4 length is 4.5 feet.

Bob

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"default" wrote in message

In RI, electricity costs in the vicinity of 6 cents/kwh.

Are you serious? In CT we pay that for electricity, but pay almost that
much for distribution charges. 6¢ total seems awfully cheap in the
northeast.
Ed



Fortunately we have the TVA which supplies cheap power at approx 7.5
cents/kWh

Bob

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:13:56 GMT, rck
wrote:


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"default" wrote in message

In RI, electricity costs in the vicinity of 6 cents/kwh.

Are you serious? In CT we pay that for electricity, but pay almost that
much for distribution charges. 6¢ total seems awfully cheap in the
northeast.
Ed



Fortunately we have the TVA which supplies cheap power at approx 7.5
cents/kWh

Bob



In CT, I'm paying about 16 cents/kWh.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:25:49 -0400, default
wrote:



Lets see, the difference between an R50 surface and an R100 surface,
assuming a dT of 70F, is a little over 6000 BTU/sqft, per YEAR.
That works out to around 2000 watt-hours.
In RI

How do you figure this?

I have 1k square foot house. Currently have R11 insulation in poor
condition. Attic temp is 130 on a bad day inside is 75. I'm trying
to figure out how much I would save by adding R38 rolled insulatin to
the attic.

Steve B.