On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:02:27 -0500, advised:

If they are busy- rushed off their feet mounting their customers'
tires - purchased from them - why would they install tires you got
somewhere else, making the wait for their customers even longer?
Stop. Think. Understand. It's BUSINESS.

I have no problem NOT asking Costco to mount other people's tires.
I'm the guy mounting my own tires, so, I'm not gonna argue with Costco to
mount them.

To me, the process is simple:
1. Buy the best tires at the lowest price
2. Have them shipped (preferably for free) to my house
3. Mount and balance them at the house

Depends on your tolerance - and the hassle you have to go through
when you have problems with your on-line-ordered stuff (and it is
WHEN, not IF - it WILL happen!!!)

Like anyone, I've had issues with shipped goods, but, heck. A tire is a big
rubber round thing. It isn't gonna break in shipping. It's not gonna get
scratched. It's not gonna be the wrong size usually, or the wrong color.

So, as risk goes, sure, there is risk ... but not a lot of risk with tires.

They are great for anything you use a lot of and therfore buy in
quantity.

Yup. I buy boxes of paper from Costco, and boxes of motor oil, and shop
rags, and piles of batteries!


Did you see they are opening some new locations that go "back to
basics" - back to where they started - as a wholesale supplier for
small businesses???

No. I didn't know about that. I started with "Price Club" which turned into
Costco at some point. I remember Sams being around. But Costco is mostly
for "people" it seems, although I do see people buying tons of bottled
water and I think "can't they get it cheaper at a "real" wholesale place"?

That's what they were when I first dealt with them. They will have no
custom meat cutting, no tire and auto center, no eye-glasses or
hearing aids or jewelry a,d a whole lot less apparel - but more range
in office equipment and supplies, tools, etc that small businesses
will need - and cater more to the "mom-and-pop" stores and eateries
with their foodstuffs etc..

Speaking of meat, I buy the $120 New York Strip and slice it myself
(there's a bit of fat to be gotten rid of, but no bones). It's a great
deal. I get about a dozen steaks out of a $120 hunk of beef.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 06:47:31 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:12:26 -0500, advised:

You don't have a CLUE how I buy my tires or what "thought" goes into
them - and I most certainly would NOT buy tires based primarily on
price.

Buying tires is both easy and hard, depending on what criteria you use.

If you read the reviews, you'll go nuts, because they're extremely
inconsistent, and most are from buttmeters which haven't been calibrated
and all suffer from the placebo effect. So reviews are absolutely useless
because only 1 in 100 will be accurate.

There's not much else to go by except UTQG and we all know how government
standards are. But as flawed as it is, it's the best there is.

So I buy tires based on only three things:
1. Fitment (e.g., a 108T is generally better than a 102S)

You DO understand what thoise numbers mean???? The 102S is good for
1874 lbs PER TIRE and 112MPH - definitely more than adequate for a
4Runner. You do not need a 2205 lb weight rating at 118MPH on a
4Runner!!!
2. UTQG (never less than Traction A and Temperature A for example)
3. Price (lower is better)

The traction rating on tires for the Runner don't tell anywhere NEAR
the whole story. It only indicates straight line stopping perfornance
and has nothing to do with cornering grip. It is quite possible to
have a C traction tire outperform a AA in lateral grip - so buyinf by
UTQG is really pretty much going in blind when you come right down to
it.

Same for the temperature grading. A 108t b rated will run cooler on
your truck than a 102t A grade in many cases. Again - just buying
"numbers" isn't telling you much.

On my truck I'm running Michelin Latitude touring for the summer and
Nokian Hakkepillita R2 winters.

On the Taurus I'm running TigerPaw Touring 95V tires (the expensive
tiger paw touring - not the cheap)

Lotsa people buy tires based on superstition and warranty and brand name,
which they're welcome to do. Some even buy them based on the sidewall
stripe. All the power to them. Not me.

You are being a prick again - it is not becoming.

I apologize.
You have to realize though, that I'm sick and tired of tired old cliches.
They're fun, like poetry is fun; but they are nearly meaningless.

For example, all the dumb****s on the planet say 'you get what you pay for'
which is ridiculous. You get whatever it is that you get. How much you pay
for it is meaningless to what it is that you get. It would be the same
thing if you got it for free as if you mortgaged your house for it. Price
is never an indication of quality. Only dumb****s think it is because price
is *easy* to measure whereas quality is a lot harder (sometimes) to
measure.

The smart man realizes you ONLY get what you pay for, generally
speaking. In other words - in another cliche - there is "no free
ride".
Generally if it sounds to good to be true, it is. Sometimes there are
real DEALS out there - but they are few and far between.

So, for example, if I have a UTQG tire of 400/A/A and it is, say, $100,
where it's a 102S tire, of a certain size, that's a *better* deal than,
say, a 400/A/B tire which is the same load range and size for, say, $200.

I don't care that one is a brand name, or that it has sidewalls, or that
the warranty is whatever it is, or that they say the tread is quiet or that
they say it wicks away water, etc.

Mabee you should. If you drive in wet conditions at speed, a AA
traction tire that has no lateral traction (stability) can be DEADLY.

I also drove competetive autosports (rallye) - so I know a bit about
tires. That couple of square inches of tire patch is ALL that is
keeping you on the road. I'm sorry - but your tire understanding
leaves a LOT to be desiresd. You can learn from those of us who know,
or you can remain (possibly dangerously) ignorant. by yur own choice.
It IS what you learn after you know it all that really counts - I know
- another cliche - but true.

BTW, if I *knew* that the tread was quiet, or that it wicked away water
better, then *that* would be an indicator of quality; but what they *say*
is almost always bull**** so it can't be trusted (but should be taken into
account if it is trusted).

You need to learn what to trust. DB ratings in proper reviews don't
lie. Nore do "peer reviewed" scientific studies. The skid pan doesn't
lie - nor do track times in doble blind comparrisons. THAT is the
kind of information I use to chose tires - and why I spent the money
for the Haks for the ranger. An unloaded pickup with limited slip
needes all the help it can get when the roads get slick

You snot-nosed little punk - You have not listened to a word I've
said. I thought for a few minutes I may have misjudgesd you -to
harshly. I take it back.

I apologize. I said in a previous post that I'm gonna be nicer.

YOu are NOT willing to learn - and I doubt your level of automotive
knowledge and experience will EVER approach that of any of they guys
on this list - or particularly guys like myself who have done this
professionally - for a living, for longer than you have been alive.

Actually, I'm pretty smart. I have very high degrees and I test well (at
least I did when I was in graduate school). But I'm not an automotive
mechanic. I studied the biological sciences. They are a far cry from this
stuff, but the one thing I can handle is data. Lots and lots of data.

Your degrees don't meen squat - nor does your IQ. Nor does mine. The
fact that I graduated at the top of my class and wrote the highest
marks on my licence exam that had ever been written at that time means
NOTHING. It's what I learned AFTER that. The fact my younger brother
beat my score by 1/100% 7 years later doesn't make him a better
mechanic than me either . IF he's a better mechanic it's because he's
stayed at it about 15 years longer than I did

The way I learn is by doing experiments and then looking up bits of data.

I'm surprised you actually assimilated enough to figure out how to put
it all together and get the job done. You are definitely not making
yourself any friends - - -

Well, I'm different than most people.
Most people are afraid to admit they made a mistake.
I don't care one bit about admitting I made a mistake.
And I made plenty of mistakes when I changed that tire and the one today.
Mistakes are part of learning.

The average man learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns
from the mistakes of others - and the fool never learns because he
never maked mistakes - I know - another cliche but very true and very
applicable. You will never live long enough to make all the mistakes
yourself. Too many of the mistakes can be either deadly or
self-limitting. Learn from some of us who have the experience - some
learned from our own mistakes, and some from the experience and
mistakes of others.

What I could have done (which many people do) is write up this idealistic
DIY that assumes I didn't make any mistakes (such as bending the
bead-breaking wedge). I could easily have written it all up so that it
looks like I'm a genius.

But I write what happened and I'm not in the least trying to impress
anyone.

I understand that - but your initial approach was EXTREMELY
off-puting. I know some of "us geniuses" (ha ha ha) have that problem

I just ask questions and if I don't get answers, I find them out on my own
(if possible). That's all I'm doing here.
You get answers. You just don't accept them. I've answered just about
every (technical) question you asked and you've blown me off.
Rou have been EXTREMELY disrespectful to the guys here that know
things and would try to help you. You **** them off, you pay the
price.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:17:22 -0500, advised:

Actually the REAL solution would be to make a tubular one out of 2
inch square tube - but welding in a plate will do the job

I understand, In fact, I thought I saw a video where the guy did exactly
that. But, for me, for now, strapping in a block of wood will work, and,
when I get the oxyacetylene setup, I can weld a plate or crossbars or
whatever.

Welding plate like that with an axy-acetylene welder CAN be done, but
it's not a job for beginners. If my only tool was the gas welder, I'd
braze that part - not weld.

I won't be that good yet. The friend has a 220VAC arc welder he said he'd
give me, for free though.

By the way - it's a CLEVIS pin.

Oooooooh. Thank you! I didn't look it up, but my spellchecker kept
bothering me so I capitalized it a few times, and the spellchecker shut up,
so, I figured it was Clovis.

Thank you for correcting me. I am indebted to you because most people
wouldn't bother on the Usenet for that but I, for one, appreciate the
correction.

Thanks!

Again, I'd stick weld that job - or if all I had was the torch, I'd
braze it - and drill a few small holes and plug braze it too.

I'm not gonna be that good at welding.

But, one thing you bring up is that *any* bar will do for breaking the weld
so I probably can just NOT use the red bar that comes with the tool.

Then I would only use the red bar for removing the already-broken bead from
the rim and placing it back on.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 06:54:39 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:20:56 -0500, advised:

Price "matching" is only good if they will BEAT the lowest price

I agree with that statement.
Only that's not price "matching"; that's price "beating" which is a good
thing.

Matching, as far as I can tell, is useless, unless (as I said) you get
something hidden for free (like no tax or less time or no shipping or
whatever).

And LEGALLY you are REQUIRED to submit the local tax on product you
order in from outside the state if they do not have a business
presence in your state. If they DO have a presence in your state, they
are requireds to charge the tax applicable in your state. Whether this
is enforced or not, I don't know.

That's debatable but I'm not a tax lawyer or accountant so I can't tell you
if it is or not since interstate commerce is a tricky thing which is
regulated federally and not by the states.

Suffice to say it's not enforced anyway, and, if it was, it would merely
shove almost all commerce overseas where it couldn't be enforced.

It's how "fluid" things work.
It can be enforced there too. Customs agents can tighten up the
border so tight a flea couldn't get through. If they think there is
enough money to be had to make it worth while, and the state
governments work alonf with the feds instead of being ignorant about
everything, the Feds can enforce the state tax laws too. Everything
coming in gets taxed according to it's destination - no exceptions -
and both the states and the feds win - and Trump gets to "Make America
Great Again"

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:00:51 -0500, advised:

If you are only going to static balance anyway, stock only the
stik-on weights and apply them to the CENTER of the rim. That way you
are not splitting weights and quite possibly making the dynamic
balance worse. It is also the onlr economical way of having the weight
you require for all situations. When "roughing" the balance plsce the
weighy at the point you will be installing it (an inch or two in from
the bead, on most of those rims) - it will take a wee bit more weight
in there, but you won't throw them nearly as easily, being held in
place by rotational force as well as the tape.

Clare, that's good advice.

The beauty of the stickon weights for home use is that they fit everything,
and they don't need special tools, and they can be easily stocked in
assorted sizes and they can be easily sliced in half if necessary, etc.

So, if stickon weights work for steel wheels, they should be given a chance
to work. The flat areas of the rim are gonna be along the inside anyway,
near to the center anyway, whereas the crimp-on weights would be along the
outside edge.

I already have plenty of stickon weights because I picked them up at HF
already.

Thanks for the encouragement to use them, as the P-type weights (which
pretty much is what the Toyota steel wheels seem to use) would need to be
obtained in all sorts of sizes and they wouldn't work for all wheels like
the stickons can.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:43:07 -0500, advised:

It can be enforced there too. Customs agents can tighten up the
border so tight a flea couldn't get through. If they think there is
enough money to be had to make it worth while, and the state
governments work alonf with the feds instead of being ignorant about
everything, the Feds can enforce the state tax laws too. Everything
coming in gets taxed according to it's destination - no exceptions -
and both the states and the feds win - and Trump gets to "Make America
Great Again"

I know economic history pretty well.

Two things specifically:
1. The power to tax involves the power to destroy, and,
2. There is always a "Black Market" which will spring up the moment those
wonderfully efficient customs agents tighten up the border.

Hell, they build tunnels, for heavens sake, under the border between the US
and Mexico just to slip drugs through past those wonderful customs agents.

Take just one example of what you're saying, which was when Jim Florio
added a tax on new trucks newly registered in New Jersey. Guess what
happened? (it's a fascinating story).

Basically you can't tax something without risking killing it.
Taxes are like small doses of poison.
Too much, and you kill the golden goose.

That's why there is no effective tax on things bought out of state.
If they did make that tax effective, two things would happen:
a. They'd kill what they taxed, and,
b. A black market would spring up

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:38:46 -0500, advised:

You DO understand what thoise numbers mean???? The 102S is good for
1874 lbs PER TIRE and 112MPH - definitely more than adequate for a
4Runner. You do not need a 2205 lb weight rating at 118MPH on a
4Runner!!!

Yeah, I understand tire numbers probably better than most people do because
I buy tires by the specs so that's *all* I base a tire purchase on (other
than price, but without meeting the spec, the price doesn't matter).

The OEM tires are 102S (I put the S there even though it's the speed
rarting because they go together). So a 108T is heavier duty and faster.

The funny thing is that the UTQG "Temperature" rating of the 108T tires is
only B while the UTQG temperature rating of the 102S is A, where
temperature is temperature but it's really mostly a function of speed,
which is odd that it's a slower speed-rated tire but a hotter temperature
rated tire.

Oddities exist in the specs.

The traction rating on tires for the Runner don't tell anywhere NEAR
the whole story. It only indicates straight line stopping perfornance
and has nothing to do with cornering grip. It is quite possible to
have a C traction tire outperform a AA in lateral grip - so buyinf by
UTQG is really pretty much going in blind when you come right down to
it.

Yeah. It's not lateral g forces but you know what?
You got something better?
I realize that UTQG is flawed but what are you gonna use without it?

The "reviews" are so terrible that it makes me sick to just read them.
Only 1 out of 100 of the reviews is accurate to any degree and they don't
generally test them on the same vehicle with the same driving conditions,
so, even that 1 out of 100 that is accurate is for some other vehicle.

What's left?


Same for the temperature grading. A 108t b rated will run cooler on
your truck than a 102t A grade in many cases. Again - just buying
"numbers" isn't telling you much.

Again. You got something better than the specs?
If so, I'm all ears, but if you tell me you believe the bull****
advertising claims then don't bother. Or, if you believe the utterly
useless reviews, then again, don't bother.

And don't say warranty either, because that's completely bogus.
Name brand is also bogus because all tires are safe that are sold in the
USA.

So, I buy by the spec.
What does anyone have for choosing tires that is better than the specs?

The smart man realizes you ONLY get what you pay for, generally
speaking. In other words - in another cliche - there is "no free
ride".

What most people don't understand is that YOU, as an individual, rarely get
to determine the set price of anything.

What I mean by that is that you don't pay the price that you are willing to
pay so much as you pay the price that everyone else is willing to pay.

So, for example, if people are willing to stand outside an Apple store for
hours in the rain just so that they can pay $800 for a cellphone, then you
aren't going to get that cellphone for, say, $500 on that same day.

The price isn't set by what YOU are willing to pay; the price is set by
what the *masses* are willing to pay. So what does *advertising* do? They
influence the masses. Specifically, they inflate the perceived value of the
product so that the masses are willing to pay more for that product.

Is it a better product? Maybe. Maybe not. But that's meaningless. It's
marketing's job to raise what the *masses* think it is worth (like high
octane gasoline). The one guy like you and me who know that our cars do
better on the lower octane stuff they're designed for won't pay that
premium price. But if we *wanted* that iPhone or that high octane gas, we
don't pay what it's worth. We have to pay what the masses are willing to
pay.

And, get this ... the masses are (fundamentally) stupid.
SO the problem is that the price is set by the masses, who are stupid.

The masses wouldn't know quality if it hit them in the face.
Just look at how many people pay extra for high-octane gasoline for a car
designed for the low octane stuff or for gold trim on their iPhone. They
don't get any better quality. They just jack up the price for the rest of
us.


Generally if it sounds to good to be true, it is. Sometimes there are
real DEALS out there - but they are few and far between.

We just bought these four tires for either $58 or $58 each (I forget, I
think I said 68 but I think it was really 58). I could have gotten *plenty*
of tires at plenty of other prices, from that price to $150 each. Are they
better tires? Some were (e.g., traction AA or treadwear 700 perhaps) but,
in reality, I think we got a good deal of about $240 for four tires where
the installation is free (yes, I know, the tools cost me so the
installation will take two years to be free).

Mabee you should. If you drive in wet conditions at speed, a AA
traction tire that has no lateral traction (stability) can be DEADLY.

Do you see the huge flaw in your logic?
I can't disagree with your words, but your words are sophistry because you
don't *know* whether you have lateral traction in *any* tire.

I buy contintenals, for example, for my bike, and they cost a lot, but
that's only because I know the tire intimately, and I like the feel of
them. But for someone else, on some other bike? I wouldn't have a clue how
they'd perform, and I'm not qualified to advise them anyway.

SO what are YOU going on if you were to say that your tires have greater
lateral traction than my tires?

I'm not saying that yours do, or that yours don't.
And I'm not saying that you said yours do.

All I'm saying is that you have no way of knowing what the lateral traction
is unless you personally tested the tires, and if you did, then your
personal tests don't apply to someone else who drives a different vehicle
under different conditions.

So, my point is that if you have lateral traction specs, great.
But you don't.
And neither does anyone else.

The only thing you have are the specs.
Which is why I buy by the specs.

I also drove competetive autosports (rallye) - so I know a bit about
tires. That couple of square inches of tire patch is ALL that is
keeping you on the road. I'm sorry - but your tire understanding
leaves a LOT to be desiresd.

Actually, let's just agree to disagree on how well I know tires.

Most people *think* they know a lot about tires, but all they know is what
the marketing guys told them. That's bull****. They know absolutely nothing
about tires if what they know comes from marketing bull****.

If you know the lateral g-force traction of your tires, just tell me what
it is.

It's a simple number of Gs (less than one).
Tell me.
What is it?

Then if you give me a number, I'm gonna ask where you got it.
Most people pull that number out of a very dark place.

I'm sure the tire manufacturer measured it but they don't give you those
numbers. And they depend on a ****load of conditions anyway.

My only point is that measured numbers are GREAT.
But nobody has them.
Not typical consumers anyway.

You can learn from those of us who know,
or you can remain (possibly dangerously) ignorant. by yur own choice.
It IS what you learn after you know it all that really counts - I know
- another cliche - but true.

What I know about tires is that there is a ****load of bull**** that people
*believe* they know about tires.

I also know that nobody has the specs they make believe they have (well,
I'm talking consumers - I'm sure racers who pay $10K for a set of tires
know a lot of tested parameters).

So, take this lateral g-force spec.
What's the lateral g's (less than one) that your tires generate?

If you give me a number, I have to then ask where'd you get that number?
That's my whole point.

Nobody has the numbers (not consumers, anyway).
The only numbers the consumer has are the published specs.

You need to learn what to trust.

I am old enough to know almost nothing can be trusted that isn't enforced
by law and threat of punishment. Take the VW situation, where they gamed
the system. The only thing stopping them is the huge fines that are going
to result.

Without those huge fines, they'd still be telling us that VW diesels are
zippy *and* fuel efficient.

You and I know tires well. I know that, for example, lateral G's are
important. But where are you gonna get the numbers to compare consumer
tires against?

My only point is that if we had the numbers for all the tires we are
considering buying, then, sure, use those numbers.

But where are you gonna get those numbers?

DB ratings in proper reviews don't
lie. Nore do "peer reviewed" scientific studies. The skid pan doesn't
lie - nor do track times in doble blind comparrisons.

C'mon. You can't expect me to believe that can you?

You know as well as I do that if those statements were actually true, we'd
both be in heaven.

But, the sheer raw unfortunate fact is that, for a set of consumer tires,
I'm not going to have access to those numbers for all the tires I'm
considering, and, even if I did have those numbers, they're tremendously
dependent on the test conditions, the vehicle, the way it's driven, and
even the weather that day.

What's funny is that you're actually saying the exact same thing I'm
saying, which is that you buy by the numbers.

The only difference is that you're intimating that you *have* far more
numbers than I have (or anyone else has), and I'm asking you *where* you
got them from.

If "I" had those numbers, I'd buy by those numbers too.

But I don't think any consumer has those numbers for the dozen or two dozen
tires he's comparing when he makes his buying decision.

THAT is the
kind of information I use to chose tires - and why I spent the money
for the Haks for the ranger. An unloaded pickup with limited slip
needes all the help it can get when the roads get slick

Again, you and I are essentially saying the same thing, which is that we
buy tires by the performance metric numbers.

The only difference is that you're intimating you have a super secret stash
of these performance numbers, and I'm asking you where you get them from.

Because if I had those numbers, I'd buy by those numbers too.

Your degrees don't meen squat - nor does your IQ. Nor does mine.

Actually, they do mean a lot. And so does yours.

A college degree, and especially higher level degrees *proves* that a
person can do a ****load of things that are complex, and which takes months
(at the very least) and years (in general) to accomplish, and, that they
can do those complex tasks well enough that about 30 to 40 different
professors (some of whom are assholes) have given them high enough marks to
pass (and preferably better than that).

A guy who can't even garner a GED might be just as capable, but there's no
proof of that.

Just like a tire might be capable of garnering 0.90Gs but without a
reliable test report backing it up, there's no proof of that.

You get answers. You just don't accept them. I've answered just about
every (technical) question you asked and you've blown me off.

I disagree but that one is in the eye of the beholder.

For example, you suggested a $500 tire mounting machine, but the
manufacturer warns that it shouldn't be used for passenger tires. Then you
suggested shoring it up (which is fine) but how is that any different than
shoring up the one I already have (which is intended for passenger tires).

So, we simply have a different attitude but that doesn't mean I blew you
off.

Rou have been EXTREMELY disrespectful to the guys here that know
things and would try to help you. You **** them off, you pay the
price.

Actually, there were only about three or four people who tried to help.
The rest just trolled.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:52:24 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron advised:

Basically you can't tax something without risking killing it.

Just to give you an idea of what happened when Florio taxed trucks in New
Jersey, you can read this one sentence:

Flori's truck tax "was meant to raise $44 million but failed to do more
than shift truck sales to other states."

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/11/20/ny...sales-tax.html


Here is another sentence, before they repealed the tax:
"The sales tax, which added thousands of dollars to the price of trucks,
had threatened to drive the state's 1,500 truck dealers out of business, as
buyers went to Pennsylvania and other states that have no such tax. "

"http://www.nytimes.com/1990/11/09/nyregion/first-step-of-florio-s-tax-retreat-repealing-assessment-on-trucks.html


This article explains a bit more what happens when you tax a fluid item:
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/08/17/ny...es-plunge.html

"''This has the makings of a disaster,'' he said. ''There isn't going to
be much here in the way of truck and parts sales. In addition, the truckers
will simply set up small terminals across the borders in Delaware,
Pennsylvania or New York, and the state will lose registration fees, which
range from $600 to $800 a truck.''

Of course, the power to destroy works in reverse too:
In 1977, New Jersey was the first state in the Northeast to exempt heavy
trucks from the sales tax, Mr. Walton said, and in the four years it took
for Pennsylvania, New York and most of New England to follow suit, the
state's trucking industry boomed.

''We became the trucking hub for New York and Long Island,'' he said.

The only Northeast state that did not exempt heavy trucks from its sales
tax was Connecticut, and the number of heavy-truck dealers in that state
has dropped to seven from 42 in the last decade, Mr. Walton said. ''If we
don't restore our exemption, we'll go the way of Connecticut,'' he said.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 05:03:04 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 23:38:46 -0500, advised:

The machine as supplied is CRAP - but it doesn't take MUCH to make it
half-assed decent. Get a steel plate welden in place of the
fence-post.

Clare,

You are making sense. I agree with you. I only shoved the fence post in
there as an American ingenuity hack, but the real solution would be to weld
in some steel reinforcement, I agree.

To that end, I have a friend who will sell me his old oxy acetylene setup,
so, I will pick that up soon (the tanks are empty so I will need to fill
them up). I'll learn how to weld, which should be a useful skill anyway.


The current price of acetylene should give you heartburn. I
reconfigured my gas brazing / welding rig to use propane instead.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 07:02:03 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:02:27 -0500, advised:

If they are busy- rushed off their feet mounting their customers'
tires - purchased from them - why would they install tires you got
somewhere else, making the wait for their customers even longer?
Stop. Think. Understand. It's BUSINESS.

I have no problem NOT asking Costco to mount other people's tires.
I'm the guy mounting my own tires, so, I'm not gonna argue with Costco to
mount them.

To me, the process is simple:
1. Buy the best tires at the lowest price
2. Have them shipped (preferably for free) to my house
3. Mount and balance them at the house

Depends on your tolerance - and the hassle you have to go through
when you have problems with your on-line-ordered stuff (and it is
WHEN, not IF - it WILL happen!!!)

Like anyone, I've had issues with shipped goods, but, heck. A tire is a big
rubber round thing. It isn't gonna break in shipping. It's not gonna get
scratched. It's not gonna be the wrong size usually, or the wrong color.

But it might take 6 ounces to balance, or go down the road like a 3
legged dog, or just plain be a really ****TY set of $69 tires - - -

So, as risk goes, sure, there is risk ... but not a lot of risk with tires.

They are great for anything you use a lot of and therfore buy in
quantity.

Yup. I buy boxes of paper from Costco, and boxes of motor oil, and shop
rags, and piles of batteries!


Did you see they are opening some new locations that go "back to
basics" - back to where they started - as a wholesale supplier for
small businesses???

No. I didn't know about that. I started with "Price Club" which turned into
Costco at some point. I remember Sams being around. But Costco is mostly
for "people" it seems, although I do see people buying tons of bottled
water and I think "can't they get it cheaper at a "real" wholesale place"?

That's what they were when I first dealt with them. They will have no
custom meat cutting, no tire and auto center, no eye-glasses or
hearing aids or jewelry a,d a whole lot less apparel - but more range
in office equipment and supplies, tools, etc that small businesses
will need - and cater more to the "mom-and-pop" stores and eateries
with their foodstuffs etc..

Speaking of meat, I buy the $120 New York Strip and slice it myself
(there's a bit of fat to be gotten rid of, but no bones). It's a great
deal. I get about a dozen steaks out of a $120 hunk of beef.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:52:26 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:38:46 -0500, advised:

You DO understand what thoise numbers mean???? The 102S is good for
1874 lbs PER TIRE and 112MPH - definitely more than adequate for a
4Runner. You do not need a 2205 lb weight rating at 118MPH on a
4Runner!!!

Yeah, I understand tire numbers probably better than most people do because
I buy tires by the specs so that's *all* I base a tire purchase on (other
than price, but without meeting the spec, the price doesn't matter).

The OEM tires are 102S (I put the S there even though it's the speed
rarting because they go together). So a 108T is heavier duty and faster.

The funny thing is that the UTQG "Temperature" rating of the 108T tires is
only B while the UTQG temperature rating of the 102S is A, where
temperature is temperature but it's really mostly a function of speed,
which is odd that it's a slower speed-rated tire but a hotter temperature
rated tire.

Oddities exist in the specs.

The traction rating on tires for the Runner don't tell anywhere NEAR
the whole story. It only indicates straight line stopping perfornance
and has nothing to do with cornering grip. It is quite possible to
have a C traction tire outperform a AA in lateral grip - so buyinf by
UTQG is really pretty much going in blind when you come right down to
it.

Yeah. It's not lateral g forces but you know what?
You got something better?
I realize that UTQG is flawed but what are you gonna use without it?

The "reviews" are so terrible that it makes me sick to just read them.
Only 1 out of 100 of the reviews is accurate to any degree and they don't
generally test them on the same vehicle with the same driving conditions,
so, even that 1 out of 100 that is accurate is for some other vehicle.

What's left?


Same for the temperature grading. A 108t b rated will run cooler on
your truck than a 102t A grade in many cases. Again - just buying
"numbers" isn't telling you much.

Again. You got something better than the specs?
If so, I'm all ears, but if you tell me you believe the bull****
advertising claims then don't bother. Or, if you believe the utterly
useless reviews, then again, don't bother.

I believe the scientifically done tire tests - nothing less than
double blind, with 3 or more testers on both sets of tires.

And don't say warranty either, because that's completely bogus.
Name brand is also bogus because all tires are safe that are sold in the
USA.

Warranty is only a very small indicator of quality -in that if they
were really ****ty tires they could not afford to warrantee them.
Rather have a tire with a 90 day warrantee last 6 years than a tire
with a 5 year warrantee replaced every 90 days, if you get the drift.

Also "all tires sold in the US are safe" - - Nope. Remember Firestone
721s?? There were quite a few really dangerous tires sold in the USA.
Uniroyal Zeta 40M was another if I remember correctly (treads flying
off at even low speeds) and "safe" is pretty subjective. I want a tire
that PERFORMS -and that is where the big difference in tires shows up
- both actual PERFORMANCE, and how well and long they stand up. The
combination of good performance - traction, ride, handling, noise etc
wih long life is the nearly unobtainable holy grail.
So, I buy by the spec.
What does anyone have for choosing tires that is better than the specs?

REAL test data.

The smart man realizes you ONLY get what you pay for, generally
speaking. In other words - in another cliche - there is "no free
ride".

What most people don't understand is that YOU, as an individual, rarely get
to determine the set price of anything.

You do get to determine what you are willing to pay, and to decide
what constitutes VALUE for you

What I mean by that is that you don't pay the price that you are willing to
pay so much as you pay the price that everyone else is willing to pay.

Nope. If I'm not willing to pay the price, I don't buy. Totally my
choice.

So, for example, if people are willing to stand outside an Apple store for
hours in the rain just so that they can pay $800 for a cellphone, then you
aren't going to get that cellphone for, say, $500 on that same day.

No, but you might buy it for $450 in 3 months when the next "fruit of
the day" is released. Being an "earlt adopter" is being a "pioneer" -
defined as the guy laying on his belly in the dust with an arrow in
his back - - - Also known as "bleeding edge"

The price isn't set by what YOU are willing to pay; the price is set by
what the *masses* are willing to pay. So what does *advertising* do? They
influence the masses. Specifically, they inflate the perceived value of the
product so that the masses are willing to pay more for that product.

Is it a better product? Maybe. Maybe not. But that's meaningless. It's
marketing's job to raise what the *masses* think it is worth (like high
octane gasoline). The one guy like you and me who know that our cars do
better on the lower octane stuff they're designed for won't pay that
premium price. But if we *wanted* that iPhone or that high octane gas, we
don't pay what it's worth. We have to pay what the masses are willing to
pay.

And, get this ... the masses are (fundamentally) stupid.
SO the problem is that the price is set by the masses, who are stupid.

Remember, you are just one of the masses. Nothing about you makes you
special - and PLEASE don't say "superior intelect"

The masses wouldn't know quality if it hit them in the face.
Just look at how many people pay extra for high-octane gasoline for a car
designed for the low octane stuff or for gold trim on their iPhone. They
don't get any better quality. They just jack up the price for the rest of
us.

How does comeone else buying premium fuel affect what you pay for the
lowest octane fuel you can buy?? What effect does it have on you?
And yes, SOME vehicles "designed for" regular gas really DO benefit
from running premium - I run nothing BUT premium in my seasonal
equipment rngines. Always have - always will.

Generally if it sounds to good to be true, it is. Sometimes there are
real DEALS out there - but they are few and far between.

We just bought these four tires for either $58 or $58 each (I forget, I
think I said 68 but I think it was really 58). I could have gotten *plenty*
of tires at plenty of other prices, from that price to $150 each. Are they
better tires? Some were (e.g., traction AA or treadwear 700 perhaps) but,
in reality, I think we got a good deal of about $240 for four tires where
the installation is free (yes, I know, the tools cost me so the
installation will take two years to be free).

What brand tires??? I know you don;t look at brands in a choice.
The tires I just put on my wifes car are made by Salun - a Chinese
brand - which just HAPPENS to be the highest quality independent
chinese tire maker.. I did a lot of investigating before buying those
tires - they meet my requirements on a low mileage 15 year old town
car.

Mabee you should. If you drive in wet conditions at speed, a AA
traction tire that has no lateral traction (stability) can be DEADLY.

Do you see the huge flaw in your logic?
I can't disagree with your words, but your words are sophistry because you
don't *know* whether you have lateral traction in *any* tire.

Damned right I do.

I buy contintenals, for example, for my bike, and they cost a lot, but
that's only because I know the tire intimately, and I like the feel of
them. But for someone else, on some other bike? I wouldn't have a clue how
they'd perform, and I'm not qualified to advise them anyway.

SO what are YOU going on if you were to say that your tires have greater
lateral traction than my tires?


Actual skid pan testing - the only thing that really matters is when
the rubber really hits the road.
I'm not saying that yours do, or that yours don't.
And I'm not saying that you said yours do.

All I'm saying is that you have no way of knowing what the lateral traction
is unless you personally tested the tires, and if you did, then your
personal tests don't apply to someone else who drives a different vehicle
under different conditions.

I say BS. As a competition driver, I know what to look for - and
where.

So, my point is that if you have lateral traction specs, great.
But you don't.
And neither does anyone else.

Yes, sometimes I do.

The only thing you have are the specs.
Which is why I buy by the specs.

Nope. I have to dissagree with you. 2 tires can have the exact same
specs and be TOTALLY different tires.

I also drove competetive autosports (rallye) - so I know a bit about
tires. That couple of square inches of tire patch is ALL that is
keeping you on the road. I'm sorry - but your tire understanding
leaves a LOT to be desiresd.

Actually, let's just agree to disagree on how well I know tires.

Most people *think* they know a lot about tires, but all they know is what
the marketing guys told them. That's bull****. They know absolutely nothing
about tires if what they know comes from marketing bull****.

If you know the lateral g-force traction of your tires, just tell me what
it is.

It's a simple number of Gs (less than one).
Tell me.
What is it?

Which tires? On what surface?
Which is why specs don't mean squat.

Then if you give me a number, I'm gonna ask where you got it.
Most people pull that number out of a very dark place.

I'm sure the tire manufacturer measured it but they don't give you those
numbers. And they depend on a ****load of conditions anyway.

My only point is that measured numbers are GREAT.
But nobody has them.
Not typical consumers anyway.

You clain to NOT be a typical consumer. You are smartere than the
average bear. I'm not the typical consumer either because I work a
lot harder for my money - and on my purchases.

You can learn from those of us who know,
or you can remain (possibly dangerously) ignorant. by yur own choice.
It IS what you learn after you know it all that really counts - I know
- another cliche - but true.

What I know about tires is that there is a ****load of bull**** that people
*believe* they know about tires.

And you've fallen for the most obvious - ratings that are not based
on anything - cannot be confirmed, and are USUALLY bogus.

I also know that nobody has the specs they make believe they have (well,
I'm talking consumers - I'm sure racers who pay $10K for a set of tires
know a lot of tested parameters).

So, take this lateral g-force spec.
What's the lateral g's (less than one) that your tires generate?

If you give me a number, I have to then ask where'd you get that number?
That's my whole point.

Nobody has the numbers (not consumers, anyway).
The only numbers the consumer has are the published specs.

Try Smithers RAPRA.

Or tire testing done by KAL Tire, among others

No use giving you facts - because you don't believe them Sometimes the
most intelligent are the stupidest when it comes to life.

You need to learn what to trust.

I am old enough to know almost nothing can be trusted that isn't enforced
by law and threat of punishment. Take the VW situation, where they gamed
the system. The only thing stopping them is the huge fines that are going
to result.

Without those huge fines, they'd still be telling us that VW diesels are
zippy *and* fuel efficient.

They ARE - they just aren't CLEAN or LEGAL

You and I know tires well. I know that, for example, lateral G's are
important. But where are you gonna get the numbers to compare consumer
tires against?

My only point is that if we had the numbers for all the tires we are
considering buying, then, sure, use those numbers.

But where are you gonna get those numbers?

DB ratings in proper reviews don't
lie. Nore do "peer reviewed" scientific studies. The skid pan doesn't
lie - nor do track times in doble blind comparrisons.

C'mon. You can't expect me to believe that can you?

You know as well as I do that if those statements were actually true, we'd
both be in heaven.

But, the sheer raw unfortunate fact is that, for a set of consumer tires,
I'm not going to have access to those numbers for all the tires I'm
considering, and, even if I did have those numbers, they're tremendously
dependent on the test conditions, the vehicle, the way it's driven, and
even the weather that day.


Narrow down the number of tires you are considering. Look at the
specs and reviuews - make your short list - then investigate and
prove.
What's funny is that you're actually saying the exact same thing I'm
saying, which is that you buy by the numbers.

Not by the numbers you buy by - price and manufacturer rated numbers
(which you emphatically say are BS)

The only difference is that you're intimating that you *have* far more
numbers than I have (or anyone else has), and I'm asking you *where* you
got them from.

If "I" had those numbers, I'd buy by those numbers too.
No you wouldn't, because you would NEVER pay $236 for a tire - I can
almost guarantee that!!!

But I don't think any consumer has those numbers for the dozen or two dozen
tires he's comparing when he makes his buying decision.

Considering a dozen or too tires is totally a fools errand.

THAT is the
kind of information I use to chose tires - and why I spent the money
for the Haks for the ranger. An unloaded pickup with limited slip
needes all the help it can get when the roads get slick

Again, you and I are essentially saying the same thing, which is that we
buy tires by the performance metric numbers.

The only difference is that you're intimating you have a super secret stash
of these performance numbers, and I'm asking you where you get them from.

Because if I had those numbers, I'd buy by those numbers too.

Your degrees don't meen squat - nor does your IQ. Nor does mine.

Actually, they do mean a lot. And so does yours.

A college degree, and especially higher level degrees *proves* that a
person can do a ****load of things that are complex, and which takes months
(at the very least) and years (in general) to accomplish, and, that they
can do those complex tasks well enough that about 30 to 40 different
professors (some of whom are assholes) have given them high enough marks to
pass (and preferably better than that).

And i've run across very "educated" engineers who couldn't
troubleshoot their way out of a wet paper bag if it was open at both
ends.

A guy who can't even garner a GED might be just as capable, but there's no
proof of that.

And a PHD in abnormal basket weaving doesn't make him any smarter
than the guy who got his "degree" at the shool of hard knocks. You
just THINK you are smarter.
Just like a tire might be capable of garnering 0.90Gs but without a
reliable test report backing it up, there's no proof of that.

You get answers. You just don't accept them. I've answered just about
every (technical) question you asked and you've blown me off.

I disagree but that one is in the eye of the beholder.

For example, you suggested a $500 tire mounting machine, but the
manufacturer warns that it shouldn't be used for passenger tires. Then you
suggested shoring it up (which is fine) but how is that any different than
shoring up the one I already have (which is intended for passenger tires).

So, we simply have a different attitude but that doesn't mean I blew you
off.

Rou have been EXTREMELY disrespectful to the guys here that know
things and would try to help you. You **** them off, you pay the
price.

Actually, there were only about three or four people who tried to help.
The rest just trolled.
And again, that can be perception. -on both sides

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 12:12:31 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 06:35:14 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:11:45 -0500, advised:

I buy my tires from a reputable local dealer who gets to make the
markup on the tires, and charges me $15 canadian to install and
balance them.

I think we got a far better deal than you do, because we *thought* about
the problem set ahead of time, so as to maximize what our money buys.

You don't have a CLUE how I buy my tires or what "thought" goes into
them - and I most certainly would NOT buy tires based primarily on
price.

For example, we chose the tires for their $68 price, and for their 460
traction, A treadwear, and A temperature ratings, based on the OEM specs
from Toyota of a 102S P225/75R15 tire for the OEM wheels.

Normally we use Tire Rack but https://simpletire.com/ gave them to us for
free shipping (which saved $16 per tire right off the bat). It did take
about 10 days (including the weekend) so that was one drawback, but in
general, a few days extra time isn't all that critical when deciding to
replace a set of tires.

So, the total cost for 4 460/A/A tires was, literally, $68 per tire.

I'm not a cheap-ass who believes he can always get a better deal
on-line. I give my business to local businesses - owned by my
neighbours, who employ my neighbours and pay local taxes in my
community..

Again, you are filled to the brim with cliches, but you're welcome to them.
This is a *technical* question, not a philosophical one.
You can wax philosophically on alt.philosophy or alt.economic.theory.

You are being a prick again - it is not becoming.

That goes for tires, appliances, and just about everything
else I buy. If it is available locally, I buy locally. I'm not a rich
man - but I make my living here, and I believe my nieghbours should be
able to make their living here too. That means sometimes I pay a few
dollars more than buying from out of the area - but on the whole I
believe I'm getting as good value for my money locally as I would getr
anywhere.

You probably should be waxing on alt.philosophy for this post.

As far as getting your money back, I truly don't believe you will
ever make your money back on your DIY tire changing and alignment
schemes - because you WILL screw up more than you save. Virtually
guaranteed. You have proven you don't understand what is involved.

Heh heh heh heh ... you make me laugh.

You're actually *scared* of people like me.
Because I can do things that you wouldn't dare do yourself.

You snot-nosed little punk - You have not listened to a word I've
said. I thought for a few minutes I may have misjudgesd you -to
harshly. I take it back.

I may start out ignorant, but I end up knowing far more than you ever will.
That's not because I'm smarter than you are; I'm just far more willing to
learn than you are.

YOu are NOT willing to learn - and I doubt your level of automotive
knowledge and experience will EVER approach that of any of they guys
on this list - or particularly guys like myself who have done this
professionally - for a living, for longer than you have been alive.

And, I'm certainly far more willing to give back since I know that the
power of Usenet is not only being able to ask experts questions, but to
also give back so that the next person stands on our shoulders.

Which I, and others, have been TRYING to do for you for several
weeks. You appear to be unteachable and unhelpable - or at least a
total ingrate.

Here's an example of classic Usenet giving back to the team:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!or...o/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

And EVEYTHING you put into that very fine piece is information you
WERE given on this newsgroup.

I'm surprised you actually assimilated enough to figure out how to put
it all together and get the job done. You are definitely not making
yourself any friends - - -

Wow, looks like Clarabell has found another friend!

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 12:20:59 AM UTC-5, wrote:


There will always be someone who will sell at a lower price


Following that to it's logical conclusion, tires would be selling for 1 cent.

Frank Baron posted for all of us...



On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 20:09:56 -0500, advised:

Move the breaker shoe part in to the first hole on the handle so
the shoe pushes out and down when you lean on the handle - as shown in
the 'tubes I referenced. The inner part of the rim needs to be against
the stop on the foot of the changer.

Oh. I didn't even realize, until you mentioned that, that there are holes
in the handle where we can move the breaker shovel further to the center of
the wheel or further away from the center of the wheel.

Too bad, because I don't have the SUV (I only have one spare tire right
now) as I'm doing this for a relative.

Last night, I destroyed the tire changer bead-breaking arm:
http://i.cubeupload.com/LqS6N4.jpg

It bent like it was made out of butter.

I may have to head back to Harbor Freight for this one:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ics54M.jpg

You get what you pay for troll. Still stumped by the valve stem?

--
Tekkie

Frank Baron posted for all of us...

Nothing of value as he is a troll. Look up valve stem *NUT*


--
Tekkie

posted for all of us...

Read Clares stuff and ignore the trolls idiocy.



I'm not a cheap-ass who believes he can always get a better deal
on-line. I give my business to local businesses - owned by my
neighbours, who employ my neighbours and pay local taxes in my
community..

Again, you are filled to the brim with cliches, but you're welcome to them.
This is a *technical* question, not a philosophical one.
You can wax philosophically on alt.philosophy or alt.economic.theory.

You are being a prick again - it is not becoming.

That goes for tires, appliances, and just about everything
else I buy. If it is available locally, I buy locally. I'm not a rich
man - but I make my living here, and I believe my nieghbours should be
able to make their living here too. That means sometimes I pay a few
dollars more than buying from out of the area - but on the whole I
believe I'm getting as good value for my money locally as I would getr
anywhere.

You probably should be waxing on alt.philosophy for this post.

As far as getting your money back, I truly don't believe you will
ever make your money back on your DIY tire changing and alignment
schemes - because you WILL screw up more than you save. Virtually
guaranteed. You have proven you don't understand what is involved.

Heh heh heh heh ... you make me laugh.

You're actually *scared* of people like me.
Because I can do things that you wouldn't dare do yourself.

You snot-nosed little punk - You have not listened to a word I've
said. I thought for a few minutes I may have misjudgesd you -to
harshly. I take it back.

I may start out ignorant, but I end up knowing far more than you ever will.
That's not because I'm smarter than you are; I'm just far more willing to
learn than you are.

YOu are NOT willing to learn - and I doubt your level of automotive
knowledge and experience will EVER approach that of any of they guys
on this list - or particularly guys like myself who have done this
professionally - for a living, for longer than you have been alive.

And, I'm certainly far more willing to give back since I know that the
power of Usenet is not only being able to ask experts questions, but to

Oh yeah I forgot this trolls alignment crap. Sorry...

--
Tekkie

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 06:47:31 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:12:26 -0500, advised:

You don't have a CLUE how I buy my tires or what "thought" goes into
them - and I most certainly would NOT buy tires based primarily on
price.

Buying tires is both easy and hard, depending on what criteria you use.

If you read the reviews, you'll go nuts, because they're extremely
inconsistent, and most are from buttmeters which haven't been calibrated
and all suffer from the placebo effect. So reviews are absolutely useless
because only 1 in 100 will be accurate.


Tire reviews are especially problematic, since besides the buttmeter
you've got variables like car, load weight, driving style, etc.
I got lucky once where a guy with the same car as mine did a good,
thorough review on TireRack. I got the same tires at Just Tires and
was completely satisfied.
But every time I've looked there since I've come up empty. I'll still
go there first when I need new tires.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:27:04 -0500, advised:

But it might take 6 ounces to balance, or go down the road like a 3
legged dog, or just plain be a really ****TY set of $69 tires - - -

C'mon Clare.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing like in that Monty Python
skit where people buy arguments.

I bought the Nexen NPriz AH5 P225/75R15 102S tires online.
If I bought them from *any* online shop, they'd be the same tires.
If I bought them at any local shop, they'd *still* be the same tires.
If I paid $500 per tire or if I paid $65 per tire, they'd be the same
tires.

You call them ****ty, and you're welcome to do so, but every time I ask you
to back up your statements, you come up flat.

For example, I told you in detail exactly how I buy tires, which is by the
specs printed on the sidewall of every passenger tire sold in the USA.

You tell me you have a *better* method of buying tires, which, you say is
that you have the super secret manufacturers' test results.

Fine. I'd love to have them.
Where are those super secret manufacturers' test results for the tires
above?

Where are those super secret manufacturers' test results for YOUR tires?

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 06:35:09 -0800 (PST), trader_4 advised:

Wow, looks like Clarabell has found another friend!

The one thing I am is a diligent studious Usenet poster in that I summarize
what I've learned so that everyone benefits from the effort.

For example, the Harbor Freight tool, as Clare said, is a POS, but, with a
bit of foresight, you can shore up its weak points.

1. If you're changing standard passenger car tires, it works fine.
2. If you're changing SUV tires, the bead breaker will bend.
3. So what you do is shore it up ahead of time
a. You replace the clevis pins (thanks Clare!) with bolts to reduce slop
b. You stiffen the bead breaker arms
c. You use a pipe instead of the red tire iron for breaking bead leverage
d. You bolt the sucker down as firmly as you can

This is the kind of information I wish the first response to this thread
had. It took a couple of days, but, as a team, what we've done is solve the
problems so that the next person with the same task starts where we left
off.

That's how Usenet is supposed to work.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 09:07:02 -0500, advised:

Again. You got something better than the specs?
I believe the scientifically done tire tests - nothing less than
double blind, with 3 or more testers on both sets of tires.

Hi Clare,

You can I both would have no problem choosing tires by the spec is we
actually had those tests in hand, but without those tests in your hand for
every tire (of the dozens you're looking at), how are you going to choose
between them?

Warranty is only a very small indicator of quality -in that if they
were really ****ty tires they could not afford to warrantee them.

We're not disagreeing.
I use warrantee only when everything else is equal.

Then, heck, if one guy has a 50K mile warranty and the other has a 75K mile
warranty, and everything else is equal, sure, I'll go with the longer
warranty. Why not?

But warranty plays no role when other factors are far more important.


Also "all tires sold in the US are safe" - - Nope. Remember Firestone
721s?? There were quite a few really dangerous tires sold in the USA.

C'mon. Let's not go off on witch hunts here.

I think you completely missed the point if you pick the Firestone or
Uniroyal debacles as an indication that tires sold in the US are NOT safe.

It's a fact that tires are safe no matter which ones you buy just as it's a
fact that the Tylenol you get from the drug store doesn't have cyanide in
it.

Sure, once in a while there is a disaster, but there is no buying habit you
can outline that is defensible in this case. What are you gonna do to
mitigate the chance of another Uniroyal/Firestone debacle?

The answer is nothing.
So it serves no purpose for you to bring in the Firestone/Uniroyal outlier.

You may as well say airline travel is unsafe the moment a single airline
crashes, so never fly because flying is unsafe.

What does anyone have for choosing tires that is better than the specs?
REAL test data.

C'mon Clare. Let's be serious. I'm not a fool.
Your sophistic response works for most people on Usenet because most people
are fools.

But it doesn't work with me.
You justified absolutely nothing of what you said.
I justified everything.

I buy by the specs printed on the sidewall (and I explained them).

You said you buy tires using better criteria than I do.
Fine.

I ask you the criteria.
You say "real test data".

Fine. I'd love to have real test data for the dozen (or so) tires I look at
but my point was that nobody has this real test data (not consumers
anyway).

You say you have this real test data for the tires you buy.
Fine.
Where is it?

Specifically, where do we get those manufacture test specs for the tires in
question? ( Nexen NPriz AH5 P225/75R15 102S Pattern Code AH5 )

You do get to determine what you are willing to pay, and to decide
what constitutes VALUE for you

C'mon Clare. You don't get the object you want unless you pay the price
that someone else is willing to pay.
That is, YOU don't set the price.
The price is set by all the other people who want the same thing you want.

You think YOU set the price.
You don't.

You can disagree with me, but it's impossible for you to *set* the price of
what constitutes vale to you (if you want the object).

Sure, you can NOT buy the object.
But that just proves my point even more.

Take for example a typical California home in Palo Alto.
What's the price?
About 2 million bucks.
For 2000 square feet and a postage-stamp lawn.

Now, you come along, and you *want* a house in Palo Alto.
What are you willing to pay?

Oh, you're only willing to pay $500K?
Guess what?

You don't get that house.

If you don't want to understand what I just wrote, then that's fine.

But for you to blindly ignore thousands of years of basic economic theory
means that we will just have to disagree with each other.

Sure, you can decide it isn't worth 2 million bucks.
But then you don't get that house.

So, you *still* don't set the price of the house because *plenty* of other
people are willing to pay 2 million for that house that you're not willing
to pay 500K for. And they live in that house. While you don't.

Anyway, this is so basic that I can't believe we're discussing it.
Suffice to say you are welcome to disagree and I think that you missed a
few economics courses in college.


What I mean by that is that you don't pay the price that you are willing to
pay so much as you pay the price that everyone else is willing to pay.

Nope. If I'm not willing to pay the price, I don't buy. Totally my
choice.

You completely missed the entire point.

If you *wanted* the object, but if you're not willing to pay the price that
everyone else is willing to pay, *they* get the object, and you don't.

They set the price. Not you.
This is such a basic part of economic theory that I can't believe we're
even discussing it.

So, you're willing to disagree; but you have to come up with a tenable
argument where you actually *get* the object you want for the price you
want.

No, but you might buy it for $450 in 3 months when the next "fruit of
the day" is released. Being an "earlt adopter" is being a "pioneer" -
defined as the guy laying on his belly in the dust with an arrow in
his back - - - Also known as "bleeding edge"

C'mon Clare. You changed the goal posts. Sure, if you want an iPhone 1 (do
they even exist?) you can get it cheaper now than it was on the day it was
first sold - but the example I gave was a specific object at a specific
time.

It's basic economic theory that market timing is *part* of the product.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:54:21 -0600, Vic Smith advised:

Tire reviews are especially problematic, since besides the buttmeter
you've got variables like car, load weight, driving style, etc.
I got lucky once where a guy with the same car as mine did a good,
thorough review on TireRack. I got the same tires at Just Tires and
was completely satisfied.
But every time I've looked there since I've come up empty. I'll still
go there first when I need new tires.

I agree with you that there is an occasional jewel in the tire reviews,
but, overall, they're almost completely useless due to the variability of
everything.

What do I use to compare tires?
I use the specs printed on the sidewall.

What would I *love* to use?
I'd love to use the manufacturers' own test specs!

Where do we get those manufacture test specs for the tires in question?
Nexen NPriz AH5 P225/75R15 102S Pattern Code AH5

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:48:05 -0500, Tekkie? advised:

You get what you pay for.

Hi Tekkie,

I'm going to be nice, as per the suggestion from Clare.

To answer your question, I have solved *all* the problems where I
appreciate the helpful advice from everyone.

In particular, Clare and a few others were very helpful, as they actually
had the experience.

This question was never going to be answered by people who have never done
the job themselves with home equipment anyway.

You must have missed the summary (and the summary of the summary, and a few
summaries after that), so I'll just point you to the summary of the tire
bead problem so you can read it yourself, since you're interested in the
results:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!or...o/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

You see, I'm an excellent Usenet poster who gives back to the team by
summarizing the thread in a post to the original so that others can find it
quickly and easily in the future.



Still stumped by the valve stem?

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:13:44 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

The current price of acetylene should give you heartburn. I
reconfigured my gas brazing / welding rig to use propane instead.

Interesting. I never thought it would be expensive.
Googling, if I read this right, it's $20 for 10 cubic feet refills.
http://tinyurl.com/hwebznk

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 05:54:39 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:13:44 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

The current price of acetylene should give you heartburn. I
reconfigured my gas brazing / welding rig to use propane instead.

Interesting. I never thought it would be expensive.
Googling, if I read this right, it's $20 for 10 cubic feet refills.
http://tinyurl.com/hwebznk

That is for a tiny "MC" bottle. A medium size "B" bottle is $44.00.
Those prices are nuts. I understand the prices went through the roof
when the acetylene production plant in Texas exploded a couple of
years ago.

Designing a tire is like trying to make a woman happy! WTF do you want?

Long tread life?
Low rolling resistance?
Dry traction?
Wet traction?
Ice traction?
Snow traction?
Quiet tire?
Speed rating?
Smooth ride?

Good grief!

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:58:11 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

That is for a tiny "MC" bottle. A medium size "B" bottle is $44.00.
Those prices are nuts. I understand the prices went through the roof
when the acetylene production plant in Texas exploded a couple of
years ago.

Thanks for the heads' up.
I've seen the tanks my friend has which are about up to my knee.

I'm guessing those are the MC tanks which that site shows are 20 bucks for
10 cubic feet, so that's roughly 2 bucks a cubic foot.
http://tinyurl.com/hwebznk

How much acetylene is a cubic foot in terms of welding time?
Dunno.

Note that this price is just one that I got off the net.
It's probably double where I live due to expense and the fact that the
brick-and-mortar shops often charge more than online places.

So I'll assume it's forty bucks for that MC tank for me to get it filled
(or swapped out).

For my use, that's probably ok (acetylene lasts forever, doesn't it)?

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 14:59:56 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:58:11 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

That is for a tiny "MC" bottle. A medium size "B" bottle is $44.00.
Those prices are nuts. I understand the prices went through the roof
when the acetylene production plant in Texas exploded a couple of
years ago.

Thanks for the heads' up.
I've seen the tanks my friend has which are about up to my knee.

I'm guessing those are the MC tanks which that site shows are 20 bucks for
10 cubic feet, so that's roughly 2 bucks a cubic foot.
http://tinyurl.com/hwebznk

An MC tank is very small, about twice the size of your average propane
torch bottle. Plumber frequently use them for their Turbo Torches.

A "B" bottle might come up to the knee of a shorter person. It comes
up to about my mid shin.



How much acetylene is a cubic foot in terms of welding time?
Dunno.

All depends upon the size tip you are using.


Note that this price is just one that I got off the net.
It's probably double where I live due to expense and the fact that the
brick-and-mortar shops often charge more than online places.

So I'll assume it's forty bucks for that MC tank for me to get it filled
(or swapped out).

For my use, that's probably ok (acetylene lasts forever, doesn't it)?

Do what you wish. I have a lot of use for my torch, silver soldering,
brazing, welding, cutting etc. $10 to fill a gas grill size tank of
propane is a lot more economical then buying acetylene. Additionally,
acetylene is very dangerous for the uninitiated.

I saw the aftermath of a USMC aviation mechanic who opened the valve,
more than one turn, on a large, unregulated acetylene bottle. With
the gas coming out in such volume at such a high pressure, it created
either a static charge or the friction of the escaping gas produced
enough heat that it caused the gas to ignite and the bottle to
explode.

It killed the mechanic, rendered an F-4 a total loss and blew a large
hole in a blast resistant aircraft shelter. Acetylene is something to
be respected.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:09:50 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

An MC tank is very small, about twice the size of your average propane
torch bottle. Plumber frequently use them for their Turbo Torches.

A "B" bottle might come up to the knee of a shorter person. It comes
up to about my mid shin.

Oh. It's probably a B bottle then. It's strapped into a handtruck along
with the oxygen which is the same size.


How much acetylene is a cubic foot in terms of welding time?
Dunno.

All depends upon the size tip you are using.

Yeah. And how much welding you do.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 18:12:53 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:09:50 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

An MC tank is very small, about twice the size of your average propane
torch bottle. Plumber frequently use them for their Turbo Torches.

A "B" bottle might come up to the knee of a shorter person. It comes
up to about my mid shin.

Oh. It's probably a B bottle then. It's strapped into a handtruck along
with the oxygen which is the same size.


How much acetylene is a cubic foot in terms of welding time?
Dunno.

All depends upon the size tip you are using.

Yeah. And how much welding you do.

Moving on to more productive discussion, what is the brand of the
welding rig itself, the torch and regulators?

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 14:59:56 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

By the way, did you purchase and try the HF bead breaker as of yet?

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 18:26:17 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

Moving on to more productive discussion, what is the brand of the
welding rig itself, the torch and regulators?

All is Craftsman. About 30 or 40 years old.
Currently stored outside in the rain.

Yeah. I know. ... that's why it's free.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 18:30:44 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

By the way, did you purchase and try the HF bead breaker as of yet?

I went to HF and bought all the weights that they had, and I returned that
stupid bead breaker bar (which was useless) but I kept the two 24-inch tire
irons.

Since I have been successful at breaking the bead, and since the bead on my
friend's automotive tire was a cinch, I decided to stick with the
reinforced old bead breaker attachment.

This is the bent bead breaker attachment:
http://i.cubeupload.com/LqS6N4.jpg

This is it straightened out again:
http://i.cubeupload.com/JfWmot.jpg

This is it reinforced with a fence post:
http://i.cubeupload.com/kYwRJt.jpg

This is the red tire iron attachment afterward:
http://i.cubeupload.com/3q4ZU3.jpg

What I now know, and what I would have told anyone who asked the same
questions I asked just a couple of days ago, is that the HF tire changer is
a POS but you can make it work if you strengthen it up like Clare suggests.

1. You have to put a block of something stiff in that bead breaker arm!
2. You should NOT use the red tire iron for the lever for breaking the bead
either (use a pipe because the tire iron bent too).
3. You should replace the clevis adjustment pins (thanks Clare!) with bolts
so as to reduce the slop

Once you do those three things, the POS HF tire changer should work to
break the bead of the tougher SUV tires (it works fine on easier passenger
car tires).

posted for all of us...


One place I worked we had a "slip guage" that told us when we drove a
car into the shop if the alignment was apppreciably out - and that
test was done free of charge to every vehicle that came in the door.

Is that the one with the teeth in a trough in the floor? We had one of them
and customers would just shake their heads when we we wouldn't try to nick
them for unneeded services.


--
Tekkie

posted for all of us...



And I've done it on tires that would flatten you if they dropped on
you, as well as standard sized automobile and light truck tires


Don't forget the split rims; could be killers. One of the firefighters I
know killed himself when he didn't do it correctly - in his day job, not ff.

--
Tekkie

Frank Baron posted for all of us...

You missed something...

e. Remove the old Schrader valve and stem assembly

Lube new Schrader valve prior to next step

f. Insert the new Schrader valve and stem assembly

Lube the tire beads prior to the next two steps.

g. Place the lower bead of the new tire on the wheel
h. Place the upper bead of the new tire on the wheel





--
Tekkie

Frank Baron posted for all of us...


Like anyone, I've had issues with shipped goods, but, heck. A tire is a big
rubber round thing. It isn't gonna break in shipping. It's not gonna get
scratched. It's not gonna be the wrong size usually, or the wrong color


But the wire in the bead might get bent in shipping...

--
Tekkie

"Frank Baron"

PLONK!!!!

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 15:12:02 -0500, Tekkie? advised:

But the wire in the bead might get bent in shipping...

Or, they can ship the wrong shade of black.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 15:08:11 -0500, Tekkie? advised:

Lube new Schrader valve prior to next step

f. Insert the new Schrader valve and stem assembly

Lube the tire beads prior to the next two steps.

Good point. The dish detergent helped wonderfully.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 05:53:14 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:27:04 -0500, advised:

But it might take 6 ounces to balance, or go down the road like a 3
legged dog, or just plain be a really ****TY set of $69 tires - - -

C'mon Clare.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing like in that Monty Python
skit where people buy arguments.

I bought the Nexen NPriz AH5 P225/75R15 102S tires online.
If I bought them from *any* online shop, they'd be the same tires.
If I bought them at any local shop, they'd *still* be the same tires.
If I paid $500 per tire or if I paid $65 per tire, they'd be the same
tires.

And wherever you bought them, they are a mediocre tire at best. Their
OEM tires on Hyundai cars have a very short lifespan and are possibly
the worst part on the car.

You call them ****ty, and you're welcome to do so, but every time I ask you
to back up your statements, you come up flat.

For example, I told you in detail exactly how I buy tires, which is by the
specs printed on the sidewall of every passenger tire sold in the USA.

You tell me you have a *better* method of buying tires, which, you say is
that you have the super secret manufacturers' test results.

Fine. I'd love to have them.
Where are those super secret manufacturers' test results for the tires
above?

Where are those super secret manufacturers' test results for YOUR tires?
Well, here is a double blind test done on the Sailun snow tires I
installed on my wife's Taurus - as an example.

It rtook me less than 5 minutes to find when I did the initial
investigation into the tires that were offered to me, and about 35
seconds to find on Google just now - - -