I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...e-1116797-.htm

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 21:44:01 +0000, Tom
m wrote:

I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?

faulty foci or switch ? -- things can be bad out of the box.

Cheaper than a new pump, unless it was bad, too

On 12/6/16 4:44 PM, Tom wrote:
I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump
to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the
receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they
replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?


Does outlet trip with nothing plugged in ?

Does it trip with anything else (lamp, etc) plugged in ?

On 12/06/2016 04:44 PM, Tom wrote:
I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to
be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?



Maybe ****ing tell the ****ing clowns that ****ing installed it to
****ing fix the ****ing piece of ****ing ****?

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 21:44:01 +0000, Tom
m wrote:

I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?

Inspect the wiring and be sure there is nothing touching the enclosure
or the ground (hot or neutral)
If you have a meter, be sure you have no continuity between the motor
leads and ground (with it disconnected from the hot and neutral)

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 21:44:01 +0000, Tom
m wrote:

I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?
Get a different pump, but don't be surprised if it still trips.

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 17:30:07 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 21:44:01 +0000, Tom
om wrote:

I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?

Get a different pump, but don't be surprised if it still trips.

Keep replacing the pump until the tripping stops? :-\

I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?


Check the wiring of the GFCI. Those combination devices can be a little tricky.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 4:27:46 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 21:44:01 +0000, Tom
m wrote:

I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?

Inspect the wiring and be sure there is nothing touching the enclosure
or the ground (hot or neutral)
If you have a meter, be sure you have no continuity between the motor
leads and ground (with it disconnected from the hot and neutral)

I'm wondering if the furnace installer ran the power instead of an electrician or someone with a lot of experience running Romex. I know from experimenting that a GFCI will trip if the neutral touches the ground. The OP didn't write whether or not the GFCI trips when nothing is plugged in or if it trips as soon as the pump is plugged in. It could faulty diagnostics by the Mark-1 installer. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Tripping Monster

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 14:34:08 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 17:30:07 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 21:44:01 +0000, Tom
caedfaa9ed1216d60ef78a6f660f5f85_10409@example. com wrote:

I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?

Get a different pump, but don't be surprised if it still trips.

Keep replacing the pump until the tripping stops? :-\
No, iI'd try a "different" pump - not just another identical unit. If
it trips too ----, I'd just get rid of the GFCI after it has passed
inspection. The pumps virtually ALL have minor electrical leakage in
real life operation. The electrics are NOT hermetically sealed, and
they are damp.Not only damp, but the condensate is also
acidic/corrosive. Requiring a GFCI on the pump is ludicrous. Just
ground it well and it is not a safety hazard.

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 4:44:04 PM UTC-5, Tom wrote:
I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...e-1116797-.htm

Almost guaranteed to be either the GFCI or its wiring. Make sure that Neutral as well as Hot is going to the GFCI.

But as Dev Null said (paraphrasing here), You paid someone to do this. Don't let them get away with sticking you with an installation that, while they say it meets code, doesn't work.

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 7:54:45 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 14:34:08 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 17:30:07 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 21:44:01 +0000, Tom
caedfaa9ed1216d60ef78a6f660f5f85_10409@example. com wrote:

I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?

Get a different pump, but don't be surprised if it still trips.

Keep replacing the pump until the tripping stops? :-\
No, iI'd try a "different" pump - not just another identical unit. If
it trips too ----, I'd just get rid of the GFCI after it has passed
inspection. The pumps virtually ALL have minor electrical leakage in
real life operation. The electrics are NOT hermetically sealed, and
they are damp.Not only damp, but the condensate is also
acidic/corrosive. Requiring a GFCI on the pump is ludicrous. Just
ground it well and it is not a safety hazard.

I have a Little Giant condensate pump on a GFCI receptacle, which
is required by code, because it's in a basement. No tripping, ever.
The issue with the receptacle and safety hazard are
that something other than the pump can be plugged in. Probably not
likely, but a homeowner with a flooded basement could be using a
shop vac and plug it in.

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 9:32:11 PM UTC-5, rangerssuck wrote:
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 4:44:04 PM UTC-5, Tom wrote:
I have a new furnace and a condensate pump the code requires the pump to be on
a gfci so they installed a combination switch receptacle the receptacle is
gfci the switch is not the pump is the only thing on the gfci they replaced
the pump and it still trips any thoughts?

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...e-1116797-.htm

Almost guaranteed to be either the GFCI or its wiring. Make sure that Neutral as well as Hot is going to the GFCI.

But as Dev Null said (paraphrasing here), You paid someone to do this. Don't let them get away with sticking you with an installation that, while they say it meets code, doesn't work.

Also unanswered is does it trip instantly when the pump is plugged in?
As soon as the pump comes on? Or only after some period of operation.
Probably the latter, or the installer issue becomes even more interesting.

On 12/06/2016 04:21 PM, Dev Null wrote:

[snip[


Maybe ****ing tell the ****ing clowns that ****ing installed it to
****ing fix the ****ing piece of ****ing ****?

Maybe with a little less ****ing?

replying to trader_4, Tom wrote:
It may go weeks before it trips the installer said basically the same thing
that Clare said he will replace it with a standard outlet after the inspection

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...e-1116797-.htm

It may go weeks before it trips the installer said basically the same thing
that Clare said he will replace it with a standard outlet after the inspection


Removing a safety feature is not a good idea and of course a code violation.. Get someone who is qualified to work on electrical wiring as your installer does not have a good attitude and is setting himself up for possible liability if someone got hurt or died from using a non-GFCI receptacle. Would you want a family member to plug into that unprotected outlet?

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:52:17 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:


It may go weeks before it trips the installer said basically the same thing
that Clare said he will replace it with a standard outlet after the inspection


Removing a safety feature is not a good idea and of course a code violation. Get someone who is qualified to work on electrical wiring as your installer does not have a good attitude and is setting himself up for possible liability if someone got hurt or died from using a non-GFCI receptacle. Would you want a family member to plug into that unprotected outlet?

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

The only legal out is a 240v pump in a 6-15 or hard wiring the 120v
pump.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:52:17 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:


It may go weeks before it trips the installer said basically the same thing
that Clare said he will replace it with a standard outlet after the inspection


Removing a safety feature is not a good idea and of course a code violation. Get someone who is qualified to work on electrical wiring as your installer does not have a good attitude and is setting himself up for possible liability if someone got hurt or died from using a non-GFCI receptacle. Would you want a family member to plug into that unprotected outlet?

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV
That "unprotected outlet" is a dedicated single use outlet - and
we've plugged into "unprotected outlets" for about 100 years. There
are some circuits that have NO BUSINESS being on GFCI protected
circuits. Perhaps there is a condensate pump that will never
false-trip a GFCI - but I haven't seen many.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 18:59:51 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:52:17 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:


It may go weeks before it trips the installer said basically the same thing
that Clare said he will replace it with a standard outlet after the inspection


Removing a safety feature is not a good idea and of course a code violation. Get someone who is qualified to work on electrical wiring as your installer does not have a good attitude and is setting himself up for possible liability if someone got hurt or died from using a non-GFCI receptacle. Would you want a family member to plug into that unprotected outlet?

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

The only legal out is a 240v pump in a 6-15 or hard wiring the 120v
pump.
Or a 12 volt pump or a medical grade isolation transformer. Or some
inspectors will accept a single 15 amp twist-lock outlet - making it a
"dedicated" outlet for a single use. - equivalent to a "hard wired"
device.. Or install the outlet inside the case of the furnace. The
furnace isn't GFCI protected either.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 20:45:42 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 18:59:51 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:52:17 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:


It may go weeks before it trips the installer said basically the same thing
that Clare said he will replace it with a standard outlet after the inspection


Removing a safety feature is not a good idea and of course a code violation. Get someone who is qualified to work on electrical wiring as your installer does not have a good attitude and is setting himself up for possible liability if someone got hurt or died from using a non-GFCI receptacle. Would you want a family member to plug into that unprotected outlet?

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

The only legal out is a 240v pump in a 6-15 or hard wiring the 120v
pump.
Or a 12 volt pump or a medical grade isolation transformer

12v would work but the wall wart would be on a GFCI.
Isolation transformers are not a fix for anything in the code.
They still must have a grounded conductor if you use a chapter 3
wiring method on the secondary (unless it is part of a listed
assembly).

..
Or some
inspectors will accept a single 15 amp twist-lock outlet - making it a
"dedicated" outlet for a single use. - equivalent to a "hard wired"
device..

Not for the last couple cycles.

"210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for
personnel shall be provided as required in 21O.8(A) through
(C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in
a readily accessible location"

"(A)(5) Unfinished basements - for purposes of this section,
unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas
of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and
limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like"

That is seen to be pretty unambitious. All of the old exceptions are
gone except for a fire alarm system (that is not a smoke detector)

Or install the outlet inside the case of the furnace. The
furnace isn't GFCI protected either.

Maybe but you might get cited for a 110.3(B)
modifying a listed product.

Why not just fix the friggin pump? If water is getting into the
windings or the wiring compartment the mo fo is broke.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 22:27:50 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 20:45:42 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 18:59:51 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:52:17 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:


It may go weeks before it trips the installer said basically the same thing
that Clare said he will replace it with a standard outlet after the inspection


Removing a safety feature is not a good idea and of course a code violation. Get someone who is qualified to work on electrical wiring as your installer does not have a good attitude and is setting himself up for possible liability if someone got hurt or died from using a non-GFCI receptacle. Would you want a family member to plug into that unprotected outlet?

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

The only legal out is a 240v pump in a 6-15 or hard wiring the 120v
pump.
Or a 12 volt pump or a medical grade isolation transformer

12v would work but the wall wart would be on a GFCI.
Isolation transformers are not a fix for anything in the code.
They still must have a grounded conductor if you use a chapter 3
wiring method on the secondary (unless it is part of a listed
assembly).

The wall wart on a gfci powering the pump won't trip the GFCI An
isolation transformer constitutes a seperately derived power source
and a "medical grade" isolation trasformer has zero leakage It can be
grounded with no effect on the GFCI because the GFCI compares line to
neutral - it does not measure ground current. The isolation
transformer removes the ground reference from the neutral so there is
no shock danger from either line or neutral (now technically l1 and
l2) and ground

.
Or some
inspectors will accept a single 15 amp twist-lock outlet - making it a
"dedicated" outlet for a single use. - equivalent to a "hard wired"
device..

Not for the last couple cycles.
Here in ontario they still did a couple years ago

"210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for
personnel shall be provided as required in 21O.8(A) through
(C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in
a readily accessible location"

"(A)(5) Unfinished basements - for purposes of this section,
unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas
of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and
limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like"

That is seen to be pretty unambitious. All of the old exceptions are
gone except for a fire alarm system (that is not a smoke detector)

Or install the outlet inside the case of the furnace. The
furnace isn't GFCI protected either.

Maybe but you might get cited for a 110.3(B)
modifying a listed product.

Why not just fix the friggin pump? If water is getting into the
windings or the wiring compartment the mo fo is broke.

And 90+ percent of them out there ARE "broke". Same with sump pumps.
If I had a house that required a sump pump to keep the basement dry
there is no way in hell I'd have it on a GFCI. One day it WILL trip,
and the water level will rise, causing water damage .

My preference is a house sitting high enough on a well enough drained
area that no sump pump is required - which is what I own now.
I just did some investigating - and in ontario a sump pump does NOT
require a GFCI under certain conditions. The same applies to water
pressure pumps. I can see it also applied to condensate pumps -

as quoted below

Question
Does the Ontario Code require ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI)
protection for sump pumps or water pressure system pumps in homes?
Answer
No, the Code does not require GFCI protection of these specific
appliances unless they are supplied by receptacles that happen to be
within 1.5 m (5') of a sink, are installed out of doors and located
within 2.5 m (8' 2") of ground level, or are within 3 m (10') of a
pool or hot tub, or as required by manufacturer installation
instructions.

Rules 26-700, 26-710, 26-714, 68-068.

I have been told a single twist lock ceiling mounted outlet for a sump
pump is allowed without a GFCI

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 23:19:14 -0500, wrote:


12v would work but the wall wart would be on a GFCI.
Isolation transformers are not a fix for anything in the code.
They still must have a grounded conductor if you use a chapter 3
wiring method on the secondary (unless it is part of a listed
assembly).

The wall wart on a gfci powering the pump won't trip the GFCI
An
isolation transformer constitutes a seperately derived power source
and a "medical grade" isolation trasformer has zero leakage It can be
grounded with no effect on the GFCI because the GFCI compares line to
neutral - it does not measure ground current. The isolation
transformer removes the ground reference from the neutral so there is
no shock danger from either line or neutral (now technically l1 and
l2) and ground

.... but a medical isolation transformer is not legal to serve a
receptacle that is not part of a piece of listed medical equipment.
If you read the rules on an SDS, you see one side needs to be
grounded.

.
Or some
inspectors will accept a single 15 amp twist-lock outlet - making it a
"dedicated" outlet for a single use. - equivalent to a "hard wired"
device..

Not for the last couple cycles.
Here in ontario they still did a couple years ago

Is the OP in Ontario?
.... and it sounds like you are saying the CeC caught up with the NEC.


Why not just fix the friggin pump? If water is getting into the
windings or the wiring compartment the mo fo is broke.


And 90+ percent of them out there ARE "broke". Same with sump pumps.
If I had a house that required a sump pump to keep the basement dry
there is no way in hell I'd have it on a GFCI. One day it WILL trip,
and the water level will rise, causing water damage .

There are plenty of defective refrigerator compressors out there too
that are happily sparking and arcing inside the can but it is still
not legal to avoid GFCI requirements, just because you don't want to
buy a new one.

My preference is a house sitting high enough on a well enough drained
area that no sump pump is required - which is what I own now.
I just did some investigating - and in ontario a sump pump does NOT
require a GFCI under certain conditions. The same applies to water
pressure pumps. I can see it also applied to condensate pumps -

as quoted below

Question
Does the Ontario Code require ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI)
protection for sump pumps or water pressure system pumps in homes?
Answer
No, the Code does not require GFCI protection of these specific
appliances unless they are supplied by receptacles that happen to be
within 1.5 m (5') of a sink, are installed out of doors and located
within 2.5 m (8' 2") of ground level, or are within 3 m (10') of a
pool or hot tub, or as required by manufacturer installation
instructions.

Rules 26-700, 26-710, 26-714, 68-068.

I have been told a single twist lock ceiling mounted outlet for a sump
pump is allowed without a GFCI

How long ago was that? I can dig through old code books and find a
rule that says it is legal to ground a receptacle to any convenient
cold water pipe but it is not 1975, even if you still have a leisure
suit in the closet.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 23:54:53 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 23:19:14 -0500, wrote:


12v would work but the wall wart would be on a GFCI.
Isolation transformers are not a fix for anything in the code.
They still must have a grounded conductor if you use a chapter 3
wiring method on the secondary (unless it is part of a listed
assembly).

The wall wart on a gfci powering the pump won't trip the GFCI
An
isolation transformer constitutes a seperately derived power source
and a "medical grade" isolation trasformer has zero leakage It can be
grounded with no effect on the GFCI because the GFCI compares line to
neutral - it does not measure ground current. The isolation
transformer removes the ground reference from the neutral so there is
no shock danger from either line or neutral (now technically l1 and
l2) and ground

... but a medical isolation transformer is not legal to serve a
receptacle that is not part of a piece of listed medical equipment.
If you read the rules on an SDS, you see one side needs to be
grounded.

So you plug the iso;lation transformer into the GFCI with a grounded
pluf, and then you connect the pump to the isolated secondary,
bridging the ground - assuming the pump has a grounded plug, not a
polarised one.
.
Or some
inspectors will accept a single 15 amp twist-lock outlet - making it a
"dedicated" outlet for a single use. - equivalent to a "hard wired"
device..

Not for the last couple cycles.
Here in ontario they still did a couple years ago

Is the OP in Ontario?
... and it sounds like you are saying the CeC caught up with the NEC.


Why not just fix the friggin pump? If water is getting into the
windings or the wiring compartment the mo fo is broke.


And 90+ percent of them out there ARE "broke". Same with sump pumps.
If I had a house that required a sump pump to keep the basement dry
there is no way in hell I'd have it on a GFCI. One day it WILL trip,
and the water level will rise, causing water damage .

There are plenty of defective refrigerator compressors out there too
that are happily sparking and arcing inside the can but it is still
not legal to avoid GFCI requirements, just because you don't want to
buy a new one.
In Ontario it is - depending where the refrigerator is. Not required
for the refrigerator in my main floor kitchen or in my finished
basement. In fact not even recommended for the refrigerator.

Because my refrigerator and outside outlet are on the same circuit, I
could not use a GFCI breaker and had to install a GFCI outlet in the
weatherproof exterior outlet enclosure. That was a requirement of my
inspector

From ECMWEB:
GFCI protection devices are also required for all 15A and 20A, 125V
receptacles located in garages and grade-level portions of unfinished
or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of a
dwelling unit [210.8(A)(2)]. However, there are a couple of exceptions
to this rule. GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for a
garage door opener. Nor are they required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.

My preference is a house sitting high enough on a well enough drained
area that no sump pump is required - which is what I own now.
I just did some investigating - and in ontario a sump pump does NOT
require a GFCI under certain conditions. The same applies to water
pressure pumps. I can see it also applied to condensate pumps -

as quoted below

Question
Does the Ontario Code require ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI)
protection for sump pumps or water pressure system pumps in homes?
Answer
No, the Code does not require GFCI protection of these specific
appliances unless they are supplied by receptacles that happen to be
within 1.5 m (5') of a sink, are installed out of doors and located
within 2.5 m (8' 2") of ground level, or are within 3 m (10') of a
pool or hot tub, or as required by manufacturer installation
instructions.

Rules 26-700, 26-710, 26-714, 68-068.

I have been told a single twist lock ceiling mounted outlet for a sump
pump is allowed without a GFCI

How long ago was that? I can dig through old code books and find a
rule that says it is legal to ground a receptacle to any convenient
cold water pipe but it is not 1975, even if you still have a leisure
suit in the closet.
This was confirmed by an inspector last year when I looked at buying
a house with a sump pump (and a lot of drainage issues which forced me
to pass on an otherwise very desireable house). See the above ecmweb
reference for confirmation.

12v would work but the wall wart would be on a GFCI.
Isolation transformers are not a fix for anything in the code.
They still must have a grounded conductor if you use a chapter 3
wiring method on the secondary (unless it is part of a listed
assembly).

The wall wart on a gfci powering the pump won't trip the GFCI
An
isolation transformer constitutes a seperately derived power source
and a "medical grade" isolation trasformer has zero leakage It can be
grounded with no effect on the GFCI because the GFCI compares line to
neutral - it does not measure ground current. The isolation
transformer removes the ground reference from the neutral so there is
no shock danger from either line or neutral (now technically l1 and
l2) and ground

... but a medical isolation transformer is not legal to serve a
receptacle that is not part of a piece of listed medical equipment.
If you read the rules on an SDS, you see one side needs to be
grounded.

So you plug the iso;lation transformer into the GFCI with a grounded
pluf, and then you connect the pump to the isolated secondary,
bridging the ground - assuming the pump has a grounded plug, not a
polarised one.
.
Or some
inspectors will accept a single 15 amp twist-lock outlet - making it a
"dedicated" outlet for a single use. - equivalent to a "hard wired"
device..

Not for the last couple cycles.
Here in ontario they still did a couple years ago

Is the OP in Ontario?
... and it sounds like you are saying the CeC caught up with the NEC.


Why not just fix the friggin pump? If water is getting into the
windings or the wiring compartment the mo fo is broke.


And 90+ percent of them out there ARE "broke". Same with sump pumps.
If I had a house that required a sump pump to keep the basement dry
there is no way in hell I'd have it on a GFCI. One day it WILL trip,
and the water level will rise, causing water damage .

There are plenty of defective refrigerator compressors out there too
that are happily sparking and arcing inside the can but it is still
not legal to avoid GFCI requirements, just because you don't want to
buy a new one.
In Ontario it is - depending where the refrigerator is. Not required
for the refrigerator in my main floor kitchen or in my finished
basement. In fact not even recommended for the refrigerator.

Because my refrigerator and outside outlet are on the same circuit, I
could not use a GFCI breaker and had to install a GFCI outlet in the
weatherproof exterior outlet enclosure. That was a requirement of my
inspector

From ECMWEB:
GFCI protection devices are also required for all 15A and 20A, 125V
receptacles located in garages and grade-level portions of unfinished
or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of a
dwelling unit [210.8(A)(2)]. However, there are a couple of exceptions
to this rule. GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for a
garage door opener. Nor are they required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.

My preference is a house sitting high enough on a well enough drained
area that no sump pump is required - which is what I own now.
I just did some investigating - and in ontario a sump pump does NOT
require a GFCI under certain conditions. The same applies to water
pressure pumps. I can see it also applied to condensate pumps -

as quoted below

Question
Does the Ontario Code require ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI)
protection for sump pumps or water pressure system pumps in homes?
Answer
No, the Code does not require GFCI protection of these specific
appliances unless they are supplied by receptacles that happen to be
within 1.5 m (5') of a sink, are installed out of doors and located
within 2.5 m (8' 2") of ground level, or are within 3 m (10') of a
pool or hot tub, or as required by manufacturer installation
instructions.

Rules 26-700, 26-710, 26-714, 68-068.

I have been told a single twist lock ceiling mounted outlet for a sump
pump is allowed without a GFCI

How long ago was that? I can dig through old code books and find a
rule that says it is legal to ground a receptacle to any convenient
cold water pipe but it is not 1975, even if you still have a leisure
suit in the closet.
This was confirmed by an inspector last year when I looked at buying
a house with a sump pump (and a lot of drainage issues which forced me
to pass on an otherwise very desireable house). See the above ecmweb
reference for confirmation.


Those exceptions that you mentioned have been eliminated from the current 2014 National Electrical Code. A ceiling receptacle in a garage does need GFCI protection, but the GFCI needs to be located where it is readily accessible for testing. A single dedicated outlet in the garage for a refrigerator also is required to have GFCI protection as well as a sump pump. I think someone mentioned in another post that the only exception is an electrical outlet dedicated for an alarm system. Your jurisdiction may still be operating under an older code.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 8:45:45 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 18:59:51 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:52:17 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:


It may go weeks before it trips the installer said basically the same thing
that Clare said he will replace it with a standard outlet after the inspection


Removing a safety feature is not a good idea and of course a code violation. Get someone who is qualified to work on electrical wiring as your installer does not have a good attitude and is setting himself up for possible liability if someone got hurt or died from using a non-GFCI receptacle. Would you want a family member to plug into that unprotected outlet?

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

The only legal out is a 240v pump in a 6-15 or hard wiring the 120v
pump.
Or a 12 volt pump or a medical grade isolation transformer. Or some
inspectors will accept a single 15 amp twist-lock outlet - making it a
"dedicated" outlet for a single use. - equivalent to a "hard wired"
device.. Or install the outlet inside the case of the furnace. The
furnace isn't GFCI protected either.

Or just do it right. There are lots of condensate pumps on GFCI,
including my Little Giant. Six years of operation for both heat and
AC and no trips. There is no reason a new pump and a new GFCI should
be tripping. It's very likely either something is defective or it's
wired incorrectly. THAT is the bottom line.

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 12:55:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 23:54:53 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 23:19:14 -0500, wrote:


12v would work but the wall wart would be on a GFCI.
Isolation transformers are not a fix for anything in the code.
They still must have a grounded conductor if you use a chapter 3
wiring method on the secondary (unless it is part of a listed
assembly).

The wall wart on a gfci powering the pump won't trip the GFCI
An
isolation transformer constitutes a seperately derived power source
and a "medical grade" isolation trasformer has zero leakage It can be
grounded with no effect on the GFCI because the GFCI compares line to
neutral - it does not measure ground current. The isolation
transformer removes the ground reference from the neutral so there is
no shock danger from either line or neutral (now technically l1 and
l2) and ground

... but a medical isolation transformer is not legal to serve a
receptacle that is not part of a piece of listed medical equipment.
If you read the rules on an SDS, you see one side needs to be
grounded.

So you plug the iso;lation transformer into the GFCI with a grounded
pluf, and then you connect the pump to the isolated secondary,
bridging the ground - assuming the pump has a grounded plug, not a
polarised one.
.
Or some
inspectors will accept a single 15 amp twist-lock outlet - making it a
"dedicated" outlet for a single use. - equivalent to a "hard wired"
device..

Not for the last couple cycles.
Here in ontario they still did a couple years ago

Is the OP in Ontario?
... and it sounds like you are saying the CeC caught up with the NEC.


Why not just fix the friggin pump? If water is getting into the
windings or the wiring compartment the mo fo is broke.


And 90+ percent of them out there ARE "broke". Same with sump pumps.
If I had a house that required a sump pump to keep the basement dry
there is no way in hell I'd have it on a GFCI. One day it WILL trip,
and the water level will rise, causing water damage .

There are plenty of defective refrigerator compressors out there too
that are happily sparking and arcing inside the can but it is still
not legal to avoid GFCI requirements, just because you don't want to
buy a new one.
In Ontario it is - depending where the refrigerator is. Not required
for the refrigerator in my main floor kitchen or in my finished
basement. In fact not even recommended for the refrigerator.

Because my refrigerator and outside outlet are on the same circuit, I
could not use a GFCI breaker and had to install a GFCI outlet in the
weatherproof exterior outlet enclosure. That was a requirement of my
inspector

From ECMWEB:
GFCI protection devices are also required for all 15A and 20A, 125V
receptacles located in garages and grade-level portions of unfinished
or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of a
dwelling unit [210.8(A)(2)]. However, there are a couple of exceptions
to this rule. GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for a
garage door opener. Nor are they required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.

My preference is a house sitting high enough on a well enough drained
area that no sump pump is required - which is what I own now.
I just did some investigating - and in ontario a sump pump does NOT
require a GFCI under certain conditions. The same applies to water
pressure pumps. I can see it also applied to condensate pumps -

as quoted below

Question
Does the Ontario Code require ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI)
protection for sump pumps or water pressure system pumps in homes?
Answer
No, the Code does not require GFCI protection of these specific
appliances unless they are supplied by receptacles that happen to be
within 1.5 m (5') of a sink, are installed out of doors and located
within 2.5 m (8' 2") of ground level, or are within 3 m (10') of a
pool or hot tub, or as required by manufacturer installation
instructions.

Rules 26-700, 26-710, 26-714, 68-068.

I have been told a single twist lock ceiling mounted outlet for a sump
pump is allowed without a GFCI

How long ago was that? I can dig through old code books and find a
rule that says it is legal to ground a receptacle to any convenient
cold water pipe but it is not 1975, even if you still have a leisure
suit in the closet.
This was confirmed by an inspector last year when I looked at buying
a house with a sump pump (and a lot of drainage issues which forced me
to pass on an otherwise very desireable house). See the above ecmweb
reference for confirmation.

Another good example of going down rat holes, trying to kludge
crap together, when there is no need. It's code that basement
receptacles have to be GFCI. There are millions of high eff
furnaces. If condensate pumps were incompatible with GFCI,
tripping them, there would be a huge problem. Apparently there
isn't. The OP has a brand new pump, brand new GFCI. Something
is either defective or wired incorrectly. The solution would seem
to be to fix it, not kludge around it.

replying to clare, James wrote:
Add 1 more to the count of people experiencing this issue with new furnace &
new condensate pump plugged into a newly installed GFCI.

Symptoms of the issue were that the new touchscreen thermostat just turned
off, later on the same day that it was installed! This was *after* inspection
from an electrician that the plumbers & HVAC people called in.

The next day, the guy that came back out found that the issue was the newly
installed GFCI powering the condensate pump had tripped. We didn't even think
of this, because that outlet didn't exist before! (thus no GFCI) There was an
alternate safety sensor on the evaporator coil condensate drain pan, which we
searched online about and originally assumed was the issue. The HVAC guy that
came out was from the same company that installed it, yet he didn't have any
knowledge of why this */or any/* GFCI would trip.

So /assuming both/ the HVAC installers & electrician knew what they were doing
this should have never happened. Yet it still happened.

Even with all the code books, rules, regulations, training and supposedly
proper equipment installed this still happened in 2019. Go figure.

Yet another symptom of the same old knowledge vs. complexity problem with
human beings that must participate in the current society. Such narrow
focused job specialization plus complex systems with complex code books and
myriad permutations of parts and it's no wonder simple avoidable problems like
this still happen all the time.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...e-1116797-.htm

On Tuesday, June 11, 2019 at 6:44:10 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
replying to clare, James wrote:
Add 1 more to the count of people experiencing this issue with new furnace &
new condensate pump plugged into a newly installed GFCI.

Symptoms of the issue were that the new touchscreen thermostat just turned
off, later on the same day that it was installed! This was *after* inspection
from an electrician that the plumbers & HVAC people called in.

So, not only the condensate pump is on the GFCI, but the furnace too?
Furnace does not have to be GFCI and I would not wire one into a GFCI.




The next day, the guy that came back out found that the issue was the newly
installed GFCI powering the condensate pump had tripped. We didn't even think
of this, because that outlet didn't exist before! (thus no GFCI) There was an
alternate safety sensor on the evaporator coil condensate drain pan, which we
searched online about and originally assumed was the issue. The HVAC guy that
came out was from the same company that installed it, yet he didn't have any
knowledge of why this */or any/* GFCI would trip.

Not clear here, maybe the condensate not pumping out triggered a sensor
and that shut off the furnace/AC?




So /assuming both/ the HVAC installers & electrician knew what they were doing
this should have never happened. Yet it still happened.

Even with all the code books, rules, regulations, training and supposedly
proper equipment installed this still happened in 2019. Go figure.

So what's wrong? Bad condensate pump? Bad GFCI?

On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 22:44:06 GMT, James
m wrote:

replying to clare, James wrote:
Add 1 more to the count of people experiencing this issue with new furnace &
new condensate pump plugged into a newly installed GFCI.

Symptoms of the issue were that the new touchscreen thermostat just turned
off, later on the same day that it was installed! This was *after* inspection
from an electrician that the plumbers & HVAC people called in.

The next day, the guy that came back out found that the issue was the newly
installed GFCI powering the condensate pump had tripped. We didn't even think
of this, because that outlet didn't exist before! (thus no GFCI) There was an
alternate safety sensor on the evaporator coil condensate drain pan, which we
searched online about and originally assumed was the issue. The HVAC guy that
came out was from the same company that installed it, yet he didn't have any
knowledge of why this */or any/* GFCI would trip.

So /assuming both/ the HVAC installers & electrician knew what they were doing
this should have never happened. Yet it still happened.

Even with all the code books, rules, regulations, training and supposedly
proper equipment installed this still happened in 2019. Go figure.

Yet another symptom of the same old knowledge vs. complexity problem with
human beings that must participate in the current society. Such narrow
focused job specialization plus complex systems with complex code books and
myriad permutations of parts and it's no wonder simple avoidable problems like
this still happen all the time.
Up here in Ontario you can only cord and plug if it comes from the
factory with a cord and plug - and I don't think any HVAC system that
is CSA approved comes that way. Furnace MUST be on separate circuit
-as must the AC - and no GFCI device is required (or recommended) on
the HVAC equipment. The only device "allowed" on the furnace circuit
is a condensate pump - but most of THEM are cord and plug - which
would eliminate them being on the same circuit - - - - (unless you
put a "single" outlet INSIDE the furnace and plugged the pump in
there) I don't think there is any law against cutting off the plug and
hardwiring the pump either - but not 100% sure on that (or even the
rest - as far as that goes -- - - - -

OP,

does the GFI trip

1) very soon after the pump is plugged in even if it is not running?

2) after a while when the pump is running

3) at the same time that the pump starts or stops.

If 3, it may be the noise surge when the pump switches on or off.

I think they make another version of GFI that is for higher leakage. You might try to find one of those.

Also, I think code allows (or did in the past) an outlet to be mounted high up at the ceiling to not have a GFI. This is intended for sump pumps.

mark

On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 9:27:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:
OP,

does the GFI trip

1) very soon after the pump is plugged in even if it is not running?

2) after a while when the pump is running

3) at the same time that the pump starts or stops.

If 3, it may be the noise surge when the pump switches on or off.

I think they make another version of GFI that is for higher leakage. You might try to find one of those.

Also, I think code allows (or did in the past) an outlet to be mounted high up at the ceiling to not have a GFI. This is intended for sump pumps.

mark

I have a Little Giant on a GFCI receptacle. That receptacle is on the same
circuit as the furnace. Ten years, no trips.

He could try plugging the pump into another GFCI. If it has to run to trip,
could put it outside, run a garden hose very slow into it, let it run
for awhile, see if it trips. It's not clear if the furnace is on the GFCI
too, would be unusual, but if so, that could be what's tripping it, though
it really should not if it's not defective.