Location for new sump pit, etc

Greetings,

I inhabit a small brick bungalow, built in 1954, poured-concrete
foundation, about 800 square feet. Perhaps twice a year we
get hard/fast rains (i.e. 3" in 12 hours) which cause a
hydrostatic water problem in the basement. The water "pushes
up" from underneath the basement floor.

I need to specify/install both a sump pit and a sump pump. I am
modestly competent (not expert) at such DIY projects.

My immediate problem is to choose a location for a sump
pit so as to avoid pipes etc buried under my basement
floor.

A diagram might be helpful (if you can view this as
"plain text" (in Notepad or ?) it will be most helpful):

_____________________________
| K P | K - Kitchen vent, runs from
| ' | roof thru wall into basement
| ' | floor.
| ' | F - Floor drain
| ' | S - Stack
| ' | V - Stack vent in front yard
| F | P - Candidate location for
| ' | new sump pit.
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| S |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
______________________________
'
front yard '
'
V
'
================================Sewer line in street

Note that the single quote "lines" from K to F etc
are where I "assume" a pipe runs under the basement
floor. Do these look reasonable?

The sump pit will be about 24" in diameter and about
24" deep. I will place the edge of the pit about 15"
from a wall. I've drilled 2 holes thru the basement
floor: it appears to be (surprisingly) only about 2"
thick. I currently *hope* to be able to cut the hole
with a 'diamond' blade on a standard-duty circular
saw.

How much trouble might I be getting myself into, here?
What to look for? What to avoid??

Please note that I do not have $1400 (or whatever)
to hire a contractor for this ...

I have scoured the net for detailed instructions on
pit location, specs on pit size, etc and have found
almost nothing. If anyone knows of a good source of
info, please let me know.

How much crushed rock outside the pit basin? One
fellow told me 1" all around. A net article suggested 6".

Any/all suggestions, info, etc would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
David

Puddin' Man wrote:

Location for new sump pit, etc

Greetings,

I inhabit a small brick bungalow, built in 1954, poured-concrete
foundation, about 800 square feet. Perhaps twice a year we
get hard/fast rains (i.e. 3" in 12 hours) which cause a
hydrostatic water problem in the basement. The water "pushes
up" from underneath the basement floor.

I need to specify/install both a sump pit and a sump pump. I am
modestly competent (not expert) at such DIY projects.

My immediate problem is to choose a location for a sump
pit so as to avoid pipes etc buried under my basement
floor.

A diagram might be helpful (if you can view this as
"plain text" (in Notepad or ?) it will be most helpful):

_____________________________
| K P | K - Kitchen vent, runs from
| ' | roof thru wall into basement
| ' | floor.
| ' | F - Floor drain
| ' | S - Stack
| ' | V - Stack vent in front yard
| F | P - Candidate location for
| ' | new sump pit.
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| S |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
______________________________
'
front yard '
'
V
'
================================Sewer line in street

Note that the single quote "lines" from K to F etc
are where I "assume" a pipe runs under the basement
floor. Do these look reasonable?

The sump pit will be about 24" in diameter and about
24" deep. I will place the edge of the pit about 15"
from a wall. I've drilled 2 holes thru the basement
floor: it appears to be (surprisingly) only about 2"
thick. I currently *hope* to be able to cut the hole
with a 'diamond' blade on a standard-duty circular
saw.

How much trouble might I be getting myself into, here?
What to look for? What to avoid??

Please note that I do not have $1400 (or whatever)
to hire a contractor for this ...

I have scoured the net for detailed instructions on
pit location, specs on pit size, etc and have found
almost nothing. If anyone knows of a good source of
info, please let me know.

How much crushed rock outside the pit basin? One
fellow told me 1" all around. A net article suggested 6".

Any/all suggestions, info, etc would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
David

I know you were originally thinking of tying the pump dischg into
the stack. Looking at your dwg, is there any chance that you could
simply dump the outlet pipe into the floor drain? They are typically 4"
and should handle the flow.

BTW, the diag looks reasonably accurate.

If you have to cut into the stack, you'll need a P-trap and also
a vent line to the roof (or to another vent). Or...they may let
you use a mechanical vent, like:
http://www.studor.com/

A check valve will probably be reqd too.

You can saw the floor but if used dry it will make a hell of
a dust mess. For a small hole I would prefer to bust the floor
after drilling a few holes at the perimeter.

I like more stone around the pit. And be sure to elevate the
pump above the bottom of the sump so that it doesn't suck in
mud/debris.

Jim

Note too that it is probably a code violation most anywhere in the US to
discharge drainage water into a sanitary sewer. With respect to the location
of th esewer below the floor, the city/town should be able to tell you where
is is from the main in the street to the foundation wall, and you can pretty
much guess where it is from the (vent? cleanout?) stack to the foundation,
though a drain cleaning company could locate it accurately if needed.

If you put the pit near the right rear corner, as you show, you should
likely be away from it, at it likely takes as straight a path as is
possible, but be sure. You could hammer-drill a series of holes in an 18"
diameter circle in the intended location, break out the floor and hand dig
through the fill below in order to install an 18" dia by 24" deep sump pump
liner. The bottom of the pit can be lined with crushed stone. Pipe the
discharge to the back yard if practical or to a distant dry well,
alternately, if the yard does not permit it see if you can arrange w/ the
city/town to connect to the municipal storm drain (not sanitary sewer)
system at the side of the street.

Zoeller Pump company has detailed installation inforation on their site:
http://www.zoeller.com/zcopump/zcopdfdocs/FM0447.pdf look at the typical
dewatering application. Note too, you will need a dedicated 20A 120V GCFI
protected recepticle to power the pump. For a dewatering application, vs an
effluent pump or sewage pump you can just use an opening in the cover, and
do not need to run a sealed vent line. The discharge piping can be PVC or
ABS Sch 40 (as code permits) or semiflexible PE, or copper or galv steel. A
sump pump check valve will also be required, a shutoff in the line is not
likely needed (unless it is a very high vertical lift) if you can tolerate
some water flushing back when the line is disconnected from the pump for
service, replacement, etc. Outside, above grade, flat, floppy collapsing
PVC swimming pool drain hose may also be used to carry the water to a
suitable location on the lot.

All this assumes the problem is that the local water table rises under the
foundation, and not that the water collects along the outside of the
foundation wanns and comes through the walls as much/more than up through
the floor -- in that case improved drainage placed in a trench around the
foundation and redirected to a remote drywell might better solve the
problem, but it sounds as though it is indeed rise from below that is
troubling you.


"Speedy Jim" wrote in message ...
Puddin' Man wrote:

Location for new sump pit, etc

Greetings,

I inhabit a small brick bungalow, built in 1954, poured-concrete
foundation, about 800 square feet. Perhaps twice a year we
get hard/fast rains (i.e. 3" in 12 hours) which cause a
hydrostatic water problem in the basement. The water "pushes
up" from underneath the basement floor.

I need to specify/install both a sump pit and a sump pump. I am
modestly competent (not expert) at such DIY projects.

My immediate problem is to choose a location for a sump
pit so as to avoid pipes etc buried under my basement
floor.

A diagram might be helpful (if you can view this as
"plain text" (in Notepad or ?) it will be most helpful):

_____________________________
| K P | K - Kitchen vent, runs from
| ' | roof thru wall into basement
| ' | floor.
| ' | F - Floor drain
| ' | S - Stack
| ' | V - Stack vent in front yard
| F | P - Candidate location for
| ' | new sump pit.
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| S |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
| ' |
______________________________
'
front yard '
'
V
'
================================Sewer line in street

Note that the single quote "lines" from K to F etc
are where I "assume" a pipe runs under the basement
floor. Do these look reasonable?

The sump pit will be about 24" in diameter and about
24" deep. I will place the edge of the pit about 15"
from a wall. I've drilled 2 holes thru the basement
floor: it appears to be (surprisingly) only about 2"
thick. I currently *hope* to be able to cut the hole
with a 'diamond' blade on a standard-duty circular
saw.

How much trouble might I be getting myself into, here?
What to look for? What to avoid??

Please note that I do not have $1400 (or whatever)
to hire a contractor for this ...

I have scoured the net for detailed instructions on
pit location, specs on pit size, etc and have found
almost nothing. If anyone knows of a good source of
info, please let me know.

How much crushed rock outside the pit basin? One
fellow told me 1" all around. A net article suggested 6".

Any/all suggestions, info, etc would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
David

I know you were originally thinking of tying the pump dischg into
the stack. Looking at your dwg, is there any chance that you could
simply dump the outlet pipe into the floor drain? They are typically 4"
and should handle the flow.

BTW, the diag looks reasonably accurate.

If you have to cut into the stack, you'll need a P-trap and also
a vent line to the roof (or to another vent). Or...they may let
you use a mechanical vent, like:
http://www.studor.com/

A check valve will probably be reqd too.

You can saw the floor but if used dry it will make a hell of
a dust mess. For a small hole I would prefer to bust the floor
after drilling a few holes at the perimeter.

I like more stone around the pit. And be sure to elevate the
pump above the bottom of the sump so that it doesn't suck in
mud/debris.

Jim

The Masked Marvel wrote:

Note too that it is probably a code violation most anywhere in the US to
discharge drainage water into a sanitary sewer.

Just to bring you up to date: this is a continuation from an
earlier thread where OP stated that his city has combined san/storm
sewers and this connection would be permitted.
I had questioned the same thing at the time...

Jim

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:57:25 -0500, Speedy Jim wrote:

I know you were originally thinking of tying the pump dischg into
the stack. Looking at your dwg, is there any chance that you could
simply dump the outlet pipe into the floor drain? They are typically 4"
and should handle the flow.

I finally got the plumbing inspector. He sez it's OK to
route discharge into the drain. This is the simplest
approach: the target for the discharge is no longer an
issue.

BTW, the diag looks reasonably accurate.

And the assumptions for the routing of the pipes below
the floor are "reasonable"? Thanks, this was my primary
concern at this time.

A check valve will probably be reqd too.

No problem.

You can saw the floor but if used dry it will make a hell of
a dust mess. For a small hole I would prefer to bust the floor
after drilling a few holes at the perimeter.

Yes, I expect the mess. I'll throw up some old shower
curtains or somesuch. I'd drill but I fear it'd take
much longer and perhaps burn the bearings in a drill
or 2 or 3. I may have to anyway if the 'diamond'
blades burn up quickly.

I like more stone around the pit.

3" all around? 6"??

And be sure to elevate the
pump above the bottom of the sump so that it doesn't suck in
mud/debris.

Maybe 3" of gravel in the bottom of the pit, and the
pump just above it? 6"??


On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 03:29:26 GMT, "The Masked Marvel"
wrote:

---snip ---

Zoeller Pump company has detailed installation inforation on their site:
http://www.zoeller.com/zcopump/zcopdfdocs/FM0447.pdf look at the typical
dewatering application.

This is "a find", and should be very helpful. Thanks!

Note too, you will need a dedicated 20A 120V GCFI
protected recepticle to power the pump.

I hope I can still get breakers for my 20 yr-old
Cutler-Hammer power box ...

For a dewatering application, vs an
effluent pump or sewage pump you can just use an opening in the cover, and
do not need to run a sealed vent line. The discharge piping can be PVC or
ABS Sch 40 (as code permits) or semiflexible PE, or copper or galv steel. A
sump pump check valve will also be required, a shutoff in the line is not
likely needed (unless it is a very high vertical lift)

It won't be.

if you can tolerate
some water flushing back when the line is disconnected from the pump for
service, replacement, etc.

I can live with it.

Outside, above grade, flat, floppy collapsing
PVC swimming pool drain hose may also be used to carry the water to a
suitable location on the lot.

All this assumes the problem is that the local water table rises under the
foundation, and not that the water collects along the outside of the
foundation wanns and comes through the walls as much/more than up through
the floor -- in that case improved drainage placed in a trench around the
foundation and redirected to a remote drywell might better solve the
problem, but it sounds as though it is indeed rise from below that is
troubling you.

Yes, I've done all I can with the exterior over the years. When
we had 12" of rain in 12 hours a few weeks ago, it appeared
that all I had was seepage from under the basement floor.

The pump is obviously not secured to the basin. The pump
unit is held in place by clamping the discharge pipe
above the basin to the wall or floor?

Much Thanks to "Speedy Jim" and
the "The Masked Marvel".

Cheers,
Puddin'

Puddin' Man wrote:

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:57:25 -0500, Speedy Jim wrote:
SNIP
I like more stone around the pit.

3" all around? 6"??

And be sure to elevate the
pump above the bottom of the sump so that it doesn't suck in
mud/debris.

Maybe 3" of gravel in the bottom of the pit, and the
pump just above it? 6"??

Go with 3" all around and 3" in the sump (or a couple of bricks).


On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 03:29:26 GMT, "The Masked Marvel"
wrote:
SNIP
Note too, you will need a dedicated 20A 120V GCFI
protected recepticle to power the pump.

I'll have to disagree here. You need a dedicated circuit,
but Art. 210-8 (a) (4), Exception #3 excludes sump pumps from
the GFCI requirement. A sump pump is different from a decorative
fountain in that you don't want the sump pump tripping accidentally
when the pump is most needed.
(Of course, your inspector may feel differently...)
Jim

Puddin' Man wrote:

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:57:25 -0500, Speedy Jim wrote:


I know you were originally thinking of tying the pump dischg into
the stack. Looking at your dwg, is there any chance that you could
simply dump the outlet pipe into the floor drain? They are typically 4"
and should handle the flow.


I finally got the plumbing inspector. He sez it's OK to
route discharge into the drain. This is the simplest
approach: the target for the discharge is no longer an
issue.


BTW, the diag looks reasonably accurate.


And the assumptions for the routing of the pipes below
the floor are "reasonable"? Thanks, this was my primary
concern at this time.


A check valve will probably be reqd too.


No problem.


You can saw the floor but if used dry it will make a hell of
a dust mess. For a small hole I would prefer to bust the floor
after drilling a few holes at the perimeter.


Yes, I expect the mess. I'll throw up some old shower
curtains or somesuch. I'd drill but I fear it'd take
much longer and perhaps burn the bearings in a drill
or 2 or 3. I may have to anyway if the 'diamond'
blades burn up quickly.


I like more stone around the pit.


3" all around? 6"??


And be sure to elevate the
pump above the bottom of the sump so that it doesn't suck in
mud/debris.


Maybe 3" of gravel in the bottom of the pit, and the
pump just above it? 6"??


On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 03:29:26 GMT, "The Masked Marvel"
wrote:

---snip ---


Zoeller Pump company has detailed installation inforation on their site:
http://www.zoeller.com/zcopump/zcopdfdocs/FM0447.pdf look at the typical
dewatering application.


This is "a find", and should be very helpful. Thanks!


Note too, you will need a dedicated 20A 120V GCFI
protected recepticle to power the pump.


I hope I can still get breakers for my 20 yr-old
Cutler-Hammer power box ...

Think carefully about using a GFCI receptacle. My preference for sump
pumps is to not use them since an unexpected (false) interruption is not
desirable. Same reason to not use one on a refrigerator or freezer.

Boden


For a dewatering application, vs an
effluent pump or sewage pump you can just use an opening in the cover, and
do not need to run a sealed vent line. The discharge piping can be PVC or
ABS Sch 40 (as code permits) or semiflexible PE, or copper or galv steel. A
sump pump check valve will also be required, a shutoff in the line is not
likely needed (unless it is a very high vertical lift)


It won't be.


if you can tolerate
some water flushing back when the line is disconnected from the pump for
service, replacement, etc.


I can live with it.


Outside, above grade, flat, floppy collapsing
PVC swimming pool drain hose may also be used to carry the water to a
suitable location on the lot.

All this assumes the problem is that the local water table rises under the
foundation, and not that the water collects along the outside of the
foundation wanns and comes through the walls as much/more than up through
the floor -- in that case improved drainage placed in a trench around the
foundation and redirected to a remote drywell might better solve the
problem, but it sounds as though it is indeed rise from below that is
troubling you.


Yes, I've done all I can with the exterior over the years. When
we had 12" of rain in 12 hours a few weeks ago, it appeared
that all I had was seepage from under the basement floor.

The pump is obviously not secured to the basin. The pump
unit is held in place by clamping the discharge pipe
above the basin to the wall or floor?

Much Thanks to "Speedy Jim" and
the "The Masked Marvel".

Cheers,
Puddin'