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  #41   Report Post  
volts500
 
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Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"Henry77" :-P wrote in message ...

"volts500" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
So, teach it to sing.

On 23 Nov 2003 09:33:42 -0800, (Mark) wrote:

I am having problems with one of my two furnaces. When the thermostat
kicks in, the furnace will light, but the fan won't kick in. Then

the
furnace shuts down. If I turn off the heat (i.e. not on heat or
cool), and turn the fan to "on", it just hums (the other furnace

works
fine and the fan will run). There is a solenoid that clicks, then the
humming. The fan itself turns effortlessly.

Do you think this could be a problem with the capacitor, solenoid or
transformer?

Yep - or about 100 other things.


Bad cap, bad start winding, bad centrifugal switch, whats the other 97?



Hmmm - seems like you got yourself a small HVAC troubleshooters guide to
make yourself look like you know something sorta like you do over on HOME.
You know - where you spout off all sorts of paragraphs and section numbers
from the NEC manual (some of which have nothing to do with the question
which shows you are just looking this crap in the book without knowing the
meaning - yeah I scanned your messages - needed a good laugh). If you are
truly an electrician I pity the fool that hires you. FYI - there are other
things that can cause the problem the OP had --- you better do more

reading
(and no - just looking at the pictures won't do - sorry). It's little

wonder
why some of the PRO's here on HVAC are so jaded - it's because of idiots
like you.


PRO fiberboard duct boys........you're the bottom feeders of the HVAC trade,
and you know it, one rung above window units. Gotta make a big deal out of
a simple motor start problem........pretty ****ing sad. Oh, that's right,
anything tougher than that and you have to replace the whole unit, huh?


  #42   Report Post  
volts500
 
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"CBHvac" wrote in message
...

"volts500" wrote in message
m...

"CBHvac" wrote in message
...

Snipped sniveling

That's what I thought..........you can't refute a damn thing I said flex
duct boy, and the best your butt buddy could do was backpedal. Here, try
again.


Ahh..here we go...anyone getting dizzy???


Doesn't take much to get you fiberboard duct boys heads a spinnin', huh?

Yea..I like Tom better...


Yeah, _you_ could tell Tomi Boi that you re-wired the feeders to a 200kW
duct heater, and he wouldn't have the first clue that you're full of ****.

Volty...get a ****ing real job...hopefully working for someone that will
train you.


Insults? Is that the best you "pro" flex duct boys can do? At least throw
in some technical discussion once in a while. Let's see, if you chump
fiberboard duct boys think there are 100 different things that could be
causing a simple blower motor start problem, there must be _100,000_ things
that could go wrong with a Metasys, huh?


  #43   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
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Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"CBHvac" wrote in message
...
Wrong thread man..


This is Turtle

He had me for a minute here and was gazzing at the screen. I can remember
changing a bunch of belts on hvac system [ new stuff ] but he said they
don't have them. i had to stop and try to remember where I've been to check
on this statement. Awwwwwwwwwwwwww Some of them there new hvac system do
have belts. Hey thank you for reminding me I'm suppost to change the belts
on the First Baptist church in Pitken , Louisiana for I was suppose to
change them last Friday.

TURTLE


  #44   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
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Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"CBHvac" wrote in message
...
Wrong thread man..


This is Turtle

He had me for a minute here and was gazzing at the screen. I can remember
changing a bunch of belts on hvac system [ new stuff ] but he said they
don't have them. i had to stop and try to remember where I've been to check
on this statement. Awwwwwwwwwwwwww Some of them there new hvac system do
have belts. Hey thank you for reminding me I'm suppost to change the belts
on the First Baptist church in Pitken , Louisiana for I was suppose to
change them last Friday.

TURTLE


  #45   Report Post  
Don Mallard
 
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Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

Must be _another_ trade secret, huh? Don't worry, I won't tell him that
when the leads of an ohmmeter are applied one way across the terminals that
the needle will deflect and slowly fall, then switch the leads and there
should be no needle deflection if the cap is good.


That doesn't seem right. I would say:
1. Disconnect the capacitor.
2. Apply the ohmmeter leads; the needle should deflect and then fall.
If it doesn't fall to infinity, cap is leaking.
3. Remove leads. Wait one minute and apply the leads again.
If needle deflects at all, cap has leaked since being charged up a
minute ago.
4. Reverse the leads and repeat steps 2 and 3. The needle SHOULD
deflect at first, in contradiction to the previous poster's advice.

Yes, cap is cheap. But going shopping for the right value and physical
size takes time - he doesn't have one "in the truck" like you do.
....Dom


  #46   Report Post  
Henry77
 
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"volts500" wrote in message
...

"Henry77" :-P wrote in message ...

"volts500" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
So, teach it to sing.

On 23 Nov 2003 09:33:42 -0800, (Mark) wrote:

I am having problems with one of my two furnaces. When the

thermostat
kicks in, the furnace will light, but the fan won't kick in. Then

the
furnace shuts down. If I turn off the heat (i.e. not on heat or
cool), and turn the fan to "on", it just hums (the other furnace

works
fine and the fan will run). There is a solenoid that clicks, then

the
humming. The fan itself turns effortlessly.

Do you think this could be a problem with the capacitor, solenoid

or
transformer?

Yep - or about 100 other things.

Bad cap, bad start winding, bad centrifugal switch, whats the other

97?



Hmmm - seems like you got yourself a small HVAC troubleshooters guide

to
make yourself look like you know something sorta like you do over on

HOME.
You know - where you spout off all sorts of paragraphs and section

numbers
from the NEC manual (some of which have nothing to do with the question
which shows you are just looking this crap in the book without knowing

the
meaning - yeah I scanned your messages - needed a good laugh). If you

are
truly an electrician I pity the fool that hires you. FYI - there are

other
things that can cause the problem the OP had --- you better do more

reading
(and no - just looking at the pictures won't do - sorry). It's little

wonder
why some of the PRO's here on HVAC are so jaded - it's because of idiots
like you.


PRO fiberboard duct boys........you're the bottom feeders of the HVAC

trade,
and you know it, one rung above window units. Gotta make a big deal out

of
a simple motor start problem........pretty ****ing sad. Oh, that's right,
anything tougher than that and you have to replace the whole unit, huh?



Anyone else notice that when this character can't challenge the facts you
throw at him it goes off on a tangent. Guess his NEC manual can't tell him
how to respond to my points :-/



  #47   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"Henry77" :-P wrote in message ...

Anyone else notice that when this character can't challenge the facts you
throw at him it goes off on a tangent. Guess his NEC manual can't tell

him
how to respond to my points :-/


C what I mean? Here come the usual alt.H(ACK)VAC piranhas who have nothing
to contribute but insults. Thanks for helping prove my point........or are
you such a dim bulb that you didn't even realize it?


  #48   Report Post  
klm
 
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:17:34 -0500, "CBHvac"
wrote:


"klm" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:15:02 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:



Switch off the furnace power. Disconnect the fan belt.


FAN BELT??
Geeezeus..I hope his isnt that old..

Try turning
the motor first then the fan drum next by hand.


Fan drum? It better NOT move...



I have a natural gas fired furnace with a label InterCity (iC). The
house is 1400 sq ft, double that if you include a full basement.


The furnace looks as new as the day it was installed and it works
pretty hard what with the 6 month long winters we have up in the great
white north. I keep it well maintained.

The mechanism is as simple as it gets with a 1/2HP electric motor
turning a squirrel cage fan via a pulley and belt. Tried to be a bit
too clever when it was new and added grease to the bronze bearings for
the squirrel cage axle. That grease dried up fast, probably wore the
bronze bearings to give a dirty dark abrasive crud (oxidized bronze.)
I had to change the bearings twice within 3 years before I wised up
and figured that the bearings were meant to run dry. The damaged
bearings were ovalled so that the axle could flop around and the
furnace gave a loud clunk everytime it started up or stopped. It
squealed like a stuck pig when the fan was turning. The furnace had
been running fine for more than 10 years since I omitted that grease.
  #49   Report Post  
Grand_Puba
 
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Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"volts500" wrote in message
news

"Henry77" :-P wrote in message ...

Anyone else notice that when this character can't challenge the facts

you
throw at him it goes off on a tangent. Guess his NEC manual can't tell

him
how to respond to my points :-/


C what I mean? Here come the usual alt.H(ACK)VAC piranhas who have

nothing
to contribute but insults. Thanks for helping prove my point........or

are
you such a dim bulb that you didn't even realize it?



Hey Volty;
Why don't you shut up and give us all a break - you have already proven you
are a clueless moron. These people are here to get help and not listen to
your moronic rants - go crawl back under your rock please!


  #50   Report Post  
Grand_Puba
 
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Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"volts500" wrote in message
news

"Henry77" :-P wrote in message ...

Anyone else notice that when this character can't challenge the facts

you
throw at him it goes off on a tangent. Guess his NEC manual can't tell

him
how to respond to my points :-/


C what I mean? Here come the usual alt.H(ACK)VAC piranhas who have

nothing
to contribute but insults. Thanks for helping prove my point........or

are
you such a dim bulb that you didn't even realize it?



Hey Volty;
Why don't you shut up and give us all a break - you have already proven you
are a clueless moron. These people are here to get help and not listen to
your moronic rants - go crawl back under your rock please!




  #51   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"Grand_Puba" ......... wrote in message
...

"volts500" wrote in message
news

"Henry77" :-P wrote in message

...

Anyone else notice that when this character can't challenge the facts

you
throw at him it goes off on a tangent. Guess his NEC manual can't

tell
him
how to respond to my points :-/


C what I mean? Here come the usual alt.H(ACK)VAC piranhas who have

nothing
to contribute but insults. Thanks for helping prove my point........or

are
you such a dim bulb that you didn't even realize it?



Hey Volty;
Why don't you shut up and give us all a break - you have already proven

you
are a clueless moron. These people are here to get help and not listen to
your moronic rants - go crawl back under your rock please!


Grand_Puba, aka Henry77. How original, another alt.H(ACK)VAC sock puppet.


  #52   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"Grand_Puba" ......... wrote in message
...

"volts500" wrote in message
news

"Henry77" :-P wrote in message

...

Anyone else notice that when this character can't challenge the facts

you
throw at him it goes off on a tangent. Guess his NEC manual can't

tell
him
how to respond to my points :-/


C what I mean? Here come the usual alt.H(ACK)VAC piranhas who have

nothing
to contribute but insults. Thanks for helping prove my point........or

are
you such a dim bulb that you didn't even realize it?



Hey Volty;
Why don't you shut up and give us all a break - you have already proven

you
are a clueless moron. These people are here to get help and not listen to
your moronic rants - go crawl back under your rock please!


Grand_Puba, aka Henry77. How original, another alt.H(ACK)VAC sock puppet.


  #53   Report Post  
Henry77
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"volts500" wrote in message
...

"Grand_Puba" ......... wrote in message
...

"volts500" wrote in message
news

"Henry77" :-P wrote in message

...

Anyone else notice that when this character can't challenge the

facts
you
throw at him it goes off on a tangent. Guess his NEC manual can't

tell
him
how to respond to my points :-/

C what I mean? Here come the usual alt.H(ACK)VAC piranhas who have

nothing
to contribute but insults. Thanks for helping prove my

point........or
are
you such a dim bulb that you didn't even realize it?



Hey Volty;
Why don't you shut up and give us all a break - you have already proven

you
are a clueless moron. These people are here to get help and not listen

to
your moronic rants - go crawl back under your rock please!


Grand_Puba, aka Henry77. How original, another alt.H(ACK)VAC sock puppet.



Nice try loser (someone just IM'd me about this crap). I don't hide behind
alias's - I tell it like it is under my own name (not a loser like you) -
all you have to do is review messages on my home group (despite your lame
attempt at framing me (you made one grave error- can you tell what it
was.....)). Like I said - I make no attempt to hide or mis-represent myself
as something I am not (like you) - I tell it like it is and you are plain an
simple a total idiot (I call em as I see them).



  #54   Report Post  
Henry77
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"volts500" wrote in message
...

"Grand_Puba" ......... wrote in message
...

"volts500" wrote in message
news

"Henry77" :-P wrote in message

...

Anyone else notice that when this character can't challenge the

facts
you
throw at him it goes off on a tangent. Guess his NEC manual can't

tell
him
how to respond to my points :-/

C what I mean? Here come the usual alt.H(ACK)VAC piranhas who have

nothing
to contribute but insults. Thanks for helping prove my

point........or
are
you such a dim bulb that you didn't even realize it?



Hey Volty;
Why don't you shut up and give us all a break - you have already proven

you
are a clueless moron. These people are here to get help and not listen

to
your moronic rants - go crawl back under your rock please!


Grand_Puba, aka Henry77. How original, another alt.H(ACK)VAC sock puppet.



Nice try loser (someone just IM'd me about this crap). I don't hide behind
alias's - I tell it like it is under my own name (not a loser like you) -
all you have to do is review messages on my home group (despite your lame
attempt at framing me (you made one grave error- can you tell what it
was.....)). Like I said - I make no attempt to hide or mis-represent myself
as something I am not (like you) - I tell it like it is and you are plain an
simple a total idiot (I call em as I see them).



  #55   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"Henry77" :-P wrote in message ...

Grand_Puba, aka Henry77. How original, another alt.H(ACK)VAC sock

puppet.



Nice try loser (someone just IM'd me about this crap). I don't hide behind
alias's - I tell it like it is under my own name (not a loser like you) -
all you have to do is review messages on my home group (despite your lame
attempt at framing me (you made one grave error- can you tell what it
was.....)). Like I said - I make no attempt to hide or mis-represent

myself
as something I am not (like you) - I tell it like it is and you are plain

an
simple a total idiot (I call em as I see them).


This is getting better than I expected......the alt.H(ACK)VAC IM butt
buddy list!




  #56   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"Henry77" :-P wrote in message ...

Grand_Puba, aka Henry77. How original, another alt.H(ACK)VAC sock

puppet.



Nice try loser (someone just IM'd me about this crap). I don't hide behind
alias's - I tell it like it is under my own name (not a loser like you) -
all you have to do is review messages on my home group (despite your lame
attempt at framing me (you made one grave error- can you tell what it
was.....)). Like I said - I make no attempt to hide or mis-represent

myself
as something I am not (like you) - I tell it like it is and you are plain

an
simple a total idiot (I call em as I see them).


This is getting better than I expected......the alt.H(ACK)VAC IM butt
buddy list!


  #57   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:31:21 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:

Have you brainiacs over there in alt.hvac ever figured out the difference
between MCA and MOCP yet?



Uhm, that would be a past discussion you and I had sir.

At the very least the interpretation is extremely cloudy on that and
you know it as well. You were correct in allowed derating of
conductors, however you also agreed there were other sections within
440.XX that indicated it might not be allowed. We also both took
notice that even if the derating were to be allowed, often times
voltage drop due to length, the larger conductor would be selected
anyway.

All things considered, you were opting to save money on the electrical
installation and I was spending more money to be on the safer side of
the dispute. The NFPA 70 or NEC clearly spells out that the code is
NOT the most practical, or even the best, but more specifically it is
the MINIMUM requirements.

I have no idea why you chose to bring this old settled discussion into
this thread, but now that you have, why not. Perhaps some one derated
the conductors trying to save a few bucks and the voltage applied to
the motor is too low and has now burned up.

The three things you mentioned are reasons a motor might not start and
would just hum, there certainly are several more. Low voltage due to
wiring, contacts in relay, or contacts in the breaker. Loose
connections, the list goes on and on.

Could the repair cost 700 bucks? Well, if the motor is toast because
of bad contacts on the relay, which is commonly on the pc board, I
suppose it could approach that pretty quick. Motor, cap, board,
possibly a new blower wheel if the hub is bad. Yeah, depending upon
the manufacture and the parts cost, it sure could. It also could be a
15 dollar cap and an hours labor plus the service call. I have no
idea, I can not see it from here.

At the end of our last conversation you seemed like a pretty decent
guy. You sure were not on a rant like you are this time. In fact, I
have not even watched this thread well enough to know WTF is going on,
just saw your name and thought , well I thought it was sharing info
and not this fussing stuff. For what it is worth, If I recall
correctly, 90 degree C wire is spec for heaters.

The other rich
  #58   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:31:21 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:

Have you brainiacs over there in alt.hvac ever figured out the difference
between MCA and MOCP yet?



Uhm, that would be a past discussion you and I had sir.

At the very least the interpretation is extremely cloudy on that and
you know it as well. You were correct in allowed derating of
conductors, however you also agreed there were other sections within
440.XX that indicated it might not be allowed. We also both took
notice that even if the derating were to be allowed, often times
voltage drop due to length, the larger conductor would be selected
anyway.

All things considered, you were opting to save money on the electrical
installation and I was spending more money to be on the safer side of
the dispute. The NFPA 70 or NEC clearly spells out that the code is
NOT the most practical, or even the best, but more specifically it is
the MINIMUM requirements.

I have no idea why you chose to bring this old settled discussion into
this thread, but now that you have, why not. Perhaps some one derated
the conductors trying to save a few bucks and the voltage applied to
the motor is too low and has now burned up.

The three things you mentioned are reasons a motor might not start and
would just hum, there certainly are several more. Low voltage due to
wiring, contacts in relay, or contacts in the breaker. Loose
connections, the list goes on and on.

Could the repair cost 700 bucks? Well, if the motor is toast because
of bad contacts on the relay, which is commonly on the pc board, I
suppose it could approach that pretty quick. Motor, cap, board,
possibly a new blower wheel if the hub is bad. Yeah, depending upon
the manufacture and the parts cost, it sure could. It also could be a
15 dollar cap and an hours labor plus the service call. I have no
idea, I can not see it from here.

At the end of our last conversation you seemed like a pretty decent
guy. You sure were not on a rant like you are this time. In fact, I
have not even watched this thread well enough to know WTF is going on,
just saw your name and thought , well I thought it was sharing info
and not this fussing stuff. For what it is worth, If I recall
correctly, 90 degree C wire is spec for heaters.

The other rich
  #59   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"REL" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:31:21 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:

Have you brainiacs over there in alt.hvac ever figured out the difference
between MCA and MOCP yet?



Uhm, that would be a past discussion you and I had sir.

At the very least the interpretation is extremely cloudy on that and
you know it as well.



No, REL, it's common knowledge in the electrical industry.......and very
clear. One would think that someone who claims to be trained by the Union
as a Journeyman Wireman would know that. I even provided you with several
avenues to verify what I was saying......such as check out
_any_ HVAC Schedule which easily obtained for the asking at any commercial
construction site which one may be working at and compare those specs to
what's stamped on the nameplates.


You were correct in allowed derating of
conductors, however you also agreed there were other sections within
440.XX that indicated it might not be allowed. We also both took
notice that even if the derating were to be allowed, often times
voltage drop due to length, the larger conductor would be selected
anyway.


But still not as large as the MOCP. The wires aren't derated, they are
sized for the MCA.

All things considered, you were opting to save money on the electrical
installation and I was spending more money to be on the safer side of
the dispute.



Who's money? That argument might be OK for a single dinky residential unit,
but it just doesn't hold water when many large units are considered.


The NFPA 70 or NEC clearly spells out that the code is
NOT the most practical, or even the best, but more specifically it is
the MINIMUM requirements.


No, REL, like I said it's common knowledge in the trade. Even the strictest
Design Engineers will not require the wire size to be sized as large as the
MOCP. Once the volt drop is accounted for, some Hospital and School, etc.
Design Engineers
will bump up the wire and conduit sizes by usually no more than one size,
and then
only to allow for future growth of the facilities. Again, even those
professionals don't require a wire size to meet the full MOCP.


I have no idea why you chose to bring this old settled discussion into
this thread, but now that you have, why not.



Because it fits. The discussion evidently was settled in your
mind.....Grand Puba style. When
two professionals disagree, is not the next logical step step (_IF_ one
really wants to "settle" something) to seek the advice of other
(indifferent) professionals? I believe that a few other professionals in
the group did agree with me, but their comments were seeming ignored, or
buried in the
numerous Piranha attacks. IIRC, I did
offer to take the discussion to alt.engineering.electrical. Declining to do
so, to me anyway, either shows that you don't want the alt.hvac piranhas
(who can contribute nothing but insults) to see that you are wrong, or is
it that you don't perceive the people in AEE expert enough to settle the
matter? Perhaps some known leaders in the electrical industry at this
website will suffice?:
http://electrical-contractor.net/cgi...i?action=intro
If you don't agree with that, then perhaps you can suggest a 3rd party?


Perhaps some one derated
the conductors trying to save a few bucks and the voltage applied to
the motor is too low and has now burned up.


Perhaps. However, that's a volt drop problem......which has nothing with
the crux of that discussion, which was MCA (Minimum Circuit Ampacity) and
MOCP (Maximum OverCurrent Protection). For sake of discussion, increasing
the
wire size to account for volt drop is (or should be) a given.

The three things you mentioned are reasons a motor might not start and
would just hum, there certainly are several more. Low voltage due to
wiring, contacts in relay, or contacts in the breaker. Loose
connections, the list goes on and on.


OK, then, how hard was that?
Although the relay contacts have already been mentioned, and
the other symptoms are closely related, they count. Let's see, we're down
to 93 out of 100 possibilities. I'll even give credit for a few more that I
may have missed in the count.......so let's make it 90 out of 100. Only 90
to go.


Could the repair cost 700 bucks? Well, if the motor is toast because
of bad contacts on the relay, which is commonly on the pc board, I
suppose it could approach that pretty quick. Motor, cap, board,
possibly a new blower wheel if the hub is bad. Yeah, depending upon
the manufacture and the parts cost, it sure could. It also could be a
15 dollar cap and an hours labor plus the service call. I have no
idea, I can not see it from here.



There ya go! That's all that had to be said to the OP from the get go.


At the end of our last conversation you seemed like a pretty decent
guy. You sure were not on a rant like you are this time. In fact, I
have not even watched this thread well enough to know WTF is going on,
just saw your name and thought , well I thought it was sharing info
and not this fussing stuff.



Info _was_ being shared until the alt.hvac Piranhas went into attack mode.


For what it is worth, If I recall
correctly, 90 degree C wire is spec for heaters.


All _anybody_ needs to do is have a look see at the wire between the
terminal block and the heating element of their own equipment to see that
the wire is indeed hi-temp (105C or higher). The feeder _supply_ wires may
only be required to be (usually) 75C, even then, depending on what's called
for by the manufacturer........but since 90C wire is very popular, that's
what usually gets used. CBHVAC claiming that he was going to re-wire and
restring a 200kW duct heater was just ridiculous.....for starters, I'd like
to know what house has a 200kW heater.


The other rich






  #60   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"REL" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:31:21 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:

Have you brainiacs over there in alt.hvac ever figured out the difference
between MCA and MOCP yet?



Uhm, that would be a past discussion you and I had sir.

At the very least the interpretation is extremely cloudy on that and
you know it as well.



No, REL, it's common knowledge in the electrical industry.......and very
clear. One would think that someone who claims to be trained by the Union
as a Journeyman Wireman would know that. I even provided you with several
avenues to verify what I was saying......such as check out
_any_ HVAC Schedule which easily obtained for the asking at any commercial
construction site which one may be working at and compare those specs to
what's stamped on the nameplates.


You were correct in allowed derating of
conductors, however you also agreed there were other sections within
440.XX that indicated it might not be allowed. We also both took
notice that even if the derating were to be allowed, often times
voltage drop due to length, the larger conductor would be selected
anyway.


But still not as large as the MOCP. The wires aren't derated, they are
sized for the MCA.

All things considered, you were opting to save money on the electrical
installation and I was spending more money to be on the safer side of
the dispute.



Who's money? That argument might be OK for a single dinky residential unit,
but it just doesn't hold water when many large units are considered.


The NFPA 70 or NEC clearly spells out that the code is
NOT the most practical, or even the best, but more specifically it is
the MINIMUM requirements.


No, REL, like I said it's common knowledge in the trade. Even the strictest
Design Engineers will not require the wire size to be sized as large as the
MOCP. Once the volt drop is accounted for, some Hospital and School, etc.
Design Engineers
will bump up the wire and conduit sizes by usually no more than one size,
and then
only to allow for future growth of the facilities. Again, even those
professionals don't require a wire size to meet the full MOCP.


I have no idea why you chose to bring this old settled discussion into
this thread, but now that you have, why not.



Because it fits. The discussion evidently was settled in your
mind.....Grand Puba style. When
two professionals disagree, is not the next logical step step (_IF_ one
really wants to "settle" something) to seek the advice of other
(indifferent) professionals? I believe that a few other professionals in
the group did agree with me, but their comments were seeming ignored, or
buried in the
numerous Piranha attacks. IIRC, I did
offer to take the discussion to alt.engineering.electrical. Declining to do
so, to me anyway, either shows that you don't want the alt.hvac piranhas
(who can contribute nothing but insults) to see that you are wrong, or is
it that you don't perceive the people in AEE expert enough to settle the
matter? Perhaps some known leaders in the electrical industry at this
website will suffice?:
http://electrical-contractor.net/cgi...i?action=intro
If you don't agree with that, then perhaps you can suggest a 3rd party?


Perhaps some one derated
the conductors trying to save a few bucks and the voltage applied to
the motor is too low and has now burned up.


Perhaps. However, that's a volt drop problem......which has nothing with
the crux of that discussion, which was MCA (Minimum Circuit Ampacity) and
MOCP (Maximum OverCurrent Protection). For sake of discussion, increasing
the
wire size to account for volt drop is (or should be) a given.

The three things you mentioned are reasons a motor might not start and
would just hum, there certainly are several more. Low voltage due to
wiring, contacts in relay, or contacts in the breaker. Loose
connections, the list goes on and on.


OK, then, how hard was that?
Although the relay contacts have already been mentioned, and
the other symptoms are closely related, they count. Let's see, we're down
to 93 out of 100 possibilities. I'll even give credit for a few more that I
may have missed in the count.......so let's make it 90 out of 100. Only 90
to go.


Could the repair cost 700 bucks? Well, if the motor is toast because
of bad contacts on the relay, which is commonly on the pc board, I
suppose it could approach that pretty quick. Motor, cap, board,
possibly a new blower wheel if the hub is bad. Yeah, depending upon
the manufacture and the parts cost, it sure could. It also could be a
15 dollar cap and an hours labor plus the service call. I have no
idea, I can not see it from here.



There ya go! That's all that had to be said to the OP from the get go.


At the end of our last conversation you seemed like a pretty decent
guy. You sure were not on a rant like you are this time. In fact, I
have not even watched this thread well enough to know WTF is going on,
just saw your name and thought , well I thought it was sharing info
and not this fussing stuff.



Info _was_ being shared until the alt.hvac Piranhas went into attack mode.


For what it is worth, If I recall
correctly, 90 degree C wire is spec for heaters.


All _anybody_ needs to do is have a look see at the wire between the
terminal block and the heating element of their own equipment to see that
the wire is indeed hi-temp (105C or higher). The feeder _supply_ wires may
only be required to be (usually) 75C, even then, depending on what's called
for by the manufacturer........but since 90C wire is very popular, that's
what usually gets used. CBHVAC claiming that he was going to re-wire and
restring a 200kW duct heater was just ridiculous.....for starters, I'd like
to know what house has a 200kW heater.


The other rich








  #61   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:35:57 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:



But still not as large as the MOCP. The wires aren't derated, they are
sized for the MCA.

Uhm, I never disagreed about sizing them for the MCA, I said you can
not size them for the MCA and then protect them with the MOCP. You
disagreed and pointed to 440.xx and I indicated to you that about four
more sections beyond it stated the over current device should be sized
to 125% of the conductor which does not equal the MOCP on most
systems.

No, REL, like I said it's common knowledge in the trade. Even the strictest
Design Engineers will not require the wire size to be sized as large as the
MOCP. Once the volt drop is accounted for, some Hospital and School, etc.


I indicated all of my feeder work was in hospitals, more specifically
FL which has the additional burden of having HRS rewrite many sections
of the NEC to far more restrictive standards for many applications.

I have no idea why you chose to bring this old settled discussion into
this thread, but now that you have, why not.



Because it fits. The discussion evidently was settled in your
mind.....Grand Puba style. When
two professionals disagree, is not the next logical step step (_IF_ one
really wants to "settle" something) to seek the advice of other
(indifferent) professionals? I believe that a few other professionals in
the group did agree with me, but their comments were seeming ignored, or
buried in the numerous Piranha attacks.


I do not recall the discussion becoming abusive, and I do not believe
I ever attacked you. I certainly may have been real hard headed and
that may have come across. I did seek out information from other
professionals. The ones I contacted were in agreement with me, the
over current device would be sized to the 125% of the conductor rating
and NOT the MOCP. I also pointed you to a request for clarification
that had been submitted to the NFPA.

IIRC, I did
offer to take the discussion to alt.engineering.electrical. Declining to do
so, to me anyway, either shows that you don't want the alt.hvac piranhas
(who can contribute nothing but insults) to see that you are wrong, or is
it that you don't perceive the people in AEE expert enough to settle the
matter? Perhaps some known leaders in the electrical industry at this
website will suffice?:
http://electrical-contractor.net/cgi...i?action=intro
If you don't agree with that, then perhaps you can suggest a 3rd party?


Guy, I could not give one bit of a damn about who sees me make a
mistake, or be wrong. I am a human and I make lots of mistakes, like
entering into this conversation at all. I did so because most of what
I had seen from you in the past had been right on target and you
seemed like a pretty decent, smart guy, that's all. You did not ever
offer to take it to AEE, I do not know if my service even offers it to
me. I thought it was over myself.

OK, then, how hard was that?
Although the relay contacts have already been mentioned, and
the other symptoms are closely related, they count. Let's see, we're down
to 93 out of 100 possibilities. I'll even give credit for a few more that I
may have missed in the count.......so let's make it 90 out of 100. Only 90
to go.


You want a list? I think what is more appropriate is notification to
the person with the problem that there is a reason behind the failure.
Finding the fault is one thing, finding out why the fault occurred is
another. Repairing the fault without correcting the cause will only
result in future faults. I am not sure how many reasons I can come up
with for a motor failing to start with voltage applied, nor am I
particularly inclined to do so.

I should have kept my freakin pie hole shut as the net result is you
think less of me and I think less of you for your reactions. I am
sorry you feel the way you do, it is very likely we could learn some
things from each other, though now it is not likely that will come to
pass.


the other rich

  #62   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:35:57 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:



But still not as large as the MOCP. The wires aren't derated, they are
sized for the MCA.

Uhm, I never disagreed about sizing them for the MCA, I said you can
not size them for the MCA and then protect them with the MOCP. You
disagreed and pointed to 440.xx and I indicated to you that about four
more sections beyond it stated the over current device should be sized
to 125% of the conductor which does not equal the MOCP on most
systems.

No, REL, like I said it's common knowledge in the trade. Even the strictest
Design Engineers will not require the wire size to be sized as large as the
MOCP. Once the volt drop is accounted for, some Hospital and School, etc.


I indicated all of my feeder work was in hospitals, more specifically
FL which has the additional burden of having HRS rewrite many sections
of the NEC to far more restrictive standards for many applications.

I have no idea why you chose to bring this old settled discussion into
this thread, but now that you have, why not.



Because it fits. The discussion evidently was settled in your
mind.....Grand Puba style. When
two professionals disagree, is not the next logical step step (_IF_ one
really wants to "settle" something) to seek the advice of other
(indifferent) professionals? I believe that a few other professionals in
the group did agree with me, but their comments were seeming ignored, or
buried in the numerous Piranha attacks.


I do not recall the discussion becoming abusive, and I do not believe
I ever attacked you. I certainly may have been real hard headed and
that may have come across. I did seek out information from other
professionals. The ones I contacted were in agreement with me, the
over current device would be sized to the 125% of the conductor rating
and NOT the MOCP. I also pointed you to a request for clarification
that had been submitted to the NFPA.

IIRC, I did
offer to take the discussion to alt.engineering.electrical. Declining to do
so, to me anyway, either shows that you don't want the alt.hvac piranhas
(who can contribute nothing but insults) to see that you are wrong, or is
it that you don't perceive the people in AEE expert enough to settle the
matter? Perhaps some known leaders in the electrical industry at this
website will suffice?:
http://electrical-contractor.net/cgi...i?action=intro
If you don't agree with that, then perhaps you can suggest a 3rd party?


Guy, I could not give one bit of a damn about who sees me make a
mistake, or be wrong. I am a human and I make lots of mistakes, like
entering into this conversation at all. I did so because most of what
I had seen from you in the past had been right on target and you
seemed like a pretty decent, smart guy, that's all. You did not ever
offer to take it to AEE, I do not know if my service even offers it to
me. I thought it was over myself.

OK, then, how hard was that?
Although the relay contacts have already been mentioned, and
the other symptoms are closely related, they count. Let's see, we're down
to 93 out of 100 possibilities. I'll even give credit for a few more that I
may have missed in the count.......so let's make it 90 out of 100. Only 90
to go.


You want a list? I think what is more appropriate is notification to
the person with the problem that there is a reason behind the failure.
Finding the fault is one thing, finding out why the fault occurred is
another. Repairing the fault without correcting the cause will only
result in future faults. I am not sure how many reasons I can come up
with for a motor failing to start with voltage applied, nor am I
particularly inclined to do so.

I should have kept my freakin pie hole shut as the net result is you
think less of me and I think less of you for your reactions. I am
sorry you feel the way you do, it is very likely we could learn some
things from each other, though now it is not likely that will come to
pass.


the other rich

  #63   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:50:26 GMT, (REL) wrote:

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:35:57 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:



But still not as large as the MOCP. The wires aren't derated, they are
sized for the MCA.


Well ain't this something!
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb...ML/001269.html

Right on your own suggested forum.

I am not going to spend any more time on the topic researching my own
arguments sir. If you find any support for your maintaining that you
can wire the unit for the MCA and then protect it with the MOCP put a
link here in this thread as I marked it for retrieval.

If you find supporting information I will own my mistake infront of
god and everybody. Perhaps that is a difference you do not see in me.
I do not care if I am wrong, I only seek to correct it when I am.

the other rich
  #64   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:50:26 GMT, (REL) wrote:

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:35:57 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:



But still not as large as the MOCP. The wires aren't derated, they are
sized for the MCA.


Well ain't this something!
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb...ML/001269.html

Right on your own suggested forum.

I am not going to spend any more time on the topic researching my own
arguments sir. If you find any support for your maintaining that you
can wire the unit for the MCA and then protect it with the MOCP put a
link here in this thread as I marked it for retrieval.

If you find supporting information I will own my mistake infront of
god and everybody. Perhaps that is a difference you do not see in me.
I do not care if I am wrong, I only seek to correct it when I am.

the other rich
  #65   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"REL" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:50:26 GMT, (REL) wrote:

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:35:57 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:



But still not as large as the MOCP. The wires aren't derated, they are
sized for the MCA.


Well ain't this something!
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb...ML/001269.html

Right on your own suggested forum.



Without the MCA or MOCP being stated, there's is no way to determine if the
MCA was bumped up to account for volt drop, nor can one determine if a
breaker smaller than the MOCP was installed.


I am not going to spend any more time on the topic researching my own
arguments sir. If you find any support for your maintaining that you
can wire the unit for the MCA and then protect it with the MOCP put a
link here in this thread as I marked it for retrieval.


By all means, if I knew it was going to be that easy I would have done that
a long time ago.

http://www.ecmag.com/editorial_detail.aspx?id=1086
http://www.mbinet.org/web/magazine/comfort1299.html
http://homewiringandmore.com/index.html
although there is a typo, more specifically:
http://homewiringandmore.com/homewir...hvac/hvac.html

If you find supporting information I will own my mistake infront of
god and everybody. Perhaps that is a difference you do not see in me.
I do not care if I am wrong, I only seek to correct it when I am.

the other rich





  #66   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"REL" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:50:26 GMT, (REL) wrote:

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:35:57 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:



But still not as large as the MOCP. The wires aren't derated, they are
sized for the MCA.


Well ain't this something!
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb...ML/001269.html

Right on your own suggested forum.



Without the MCA or MOCP being stated, there's is no way to determine if the
MCA was bumped up to account for volt drop, nor can one determine if a
breaker smaller than the MOCP was installed.


I am not going to spend any more time on the topic researching my own
arguments sir. If you find any support for your maintaining that you
can wire the unit for the MCA and then protect it with the MOCP put a
link here in this thread as I marked it for retrieval.


By all means, if I knew it was going to be that easy I would have done that
a long time ago.

http://www.ecmag.com/editorial_detail.aspx?id=1086
http://www.mbinet.org/web/magazine/comfort1299.html
http://homewiringandmore.com/index.html
although there is a typo, more specifically:
http://homewiringandmore.com/homewir...hvac/hvac.html

If you find supporting information I will own my mistake infront of
god and everybody. Perhaps that is a difference you do not see in me.
I do not care if I am wrong, I only seek to correct it when I am.

the other rich



  #67   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:48:59 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:


http://homewiringandmore.com/homewir...hvac/hvac.html

If you find supporting information I will own my mistake infront of
god and everybody. Perhaps that is a difference you do not see in me.
I do not care if I am wrong, I only seek to correct it when I am.

the other rich


THIS DOCUMENT IS BASED ON THE 1999 NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE AND IS
DESIGNED TO GIVE YOU AN OPTION, AS A SELF HELP, THAT SHOULD PASS
MINIMUM CODE REQUIREMENTS. WHILE EXTREME CARE HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED IN
THE PREPARATION OF THIS SELF HELP DOCUMENT, THE AUTHOR AND / OR
PROVIDER OF THIS DOCUMENT ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ERRORS OR
OMISSIONS, NOR IS ANY LIABILITY ASSUMED FROM TNE USE OF THE
INFORMATION CONTAINED WITHIN THIS DOCUMENT BY THE AUTHOR OR PROVIDER.

Good thing he has that in place wouldn't you say.

This is the one you showed me before, it is NOT compelling at all sir.
The author is stating that a unit with a MCA of 27Amps and a MOCP of
45 may be connected with number 10 wire and a 100 amp fuse. All
because of the LRA of the compressor motor.

He is full of ****.

He even discusses the MOCP lol.

Volts500 this is the SAME thing again. Here is the deal. By exceeding
the MOCP stated on the plate, he is wrong. Now before you go into a
long drawn out disertation about how it is just MY opinion I will
check into this very situation.

I am certianly of the opinion that should you opt to wire this with
number 10 wire and protect it with a 100amp HACR fuse or breaker not
only would you find yourself in violation of the minimum standards of
the NEC, you would have also VOIDED any warranty on the unit.

I will print this out and submit it to no less than one master
electrician, one double E and 3 major manufactures to determine if
they would honor warranty next week.

I certianly found your own argument of being allowed to size to MOCP a
bit more reasonable, but perhaps I have forgotten enough of it to
realize you also indicated it was acceptable to exceed the MOP on the
name plate.

FYI HACR breakers and fuses are DESIGNED to withstand damn it I forget
now, but if I recall correctly 6 times the rating for a few seconds to
prevent trips due to LRA. I find the idea of placing a 100 amp breaker
on number 10 wire to a device with normal loading of under 30 amps
flat out idiotic and a significant diservice to the client.

Keep your liability insurance paid up.
  #68   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:48:59 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:


http://homewiringandmore.com/homewir...hvac/hvac.html

If you find supporting information I will own my mistake infront of
god and everybody. Perhaps that is a difference you do not see in me.
I do not care if I am wrong, I only seek to correct it when I am.

the other rich


THIS DOCUMENT IS BASED ON THE 1999 NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE AND IS
DESIGNED TO GIVE YOU AN OPTION, AS A SELF HELP, THAT SHOULD PASS
MINIMUM CODE REQUIREMENTS. WHILE EXTREME CARE HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED IN
THE PREPARATION OF THIS SELF HELP DOCUMENT, THE AUTHOR AND / OR
PROVIDER OF THIS DOCUMENT ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ERRORS OR
OMISSIONS, NOR IS ANY LIABILITY ASSUMED FROM TNE USE OF THE
INFORMATION CONTAINED WITHIN THIS DOCUMENT BY THE AUTHOR OR PROVIDER.

Good thing he has that in place wouldn't you say.

This is the one you showed me before, it is NOT compelling at all sir.
The author is stating that a unit with a MCA of 27Amps and a MOCP of
45 may be connected with number 10 wire and a 100 amp fuse. All
because of the LRA of the compressor motor.

He is full of ****.

He even discusses the MOCP lol.

Volts500 this is the SAME thing again. Here is the deal. By exceeding
the MOCP stated on the plate, he is wrong. Now before you go into a
long drawn out disertation about how it is just MY opinion I will
check into this very situation.

I am certianly of the opinion that should you opt to wire this with
number 10 wire and protect it with a 100amp HACR fuse or breaker not
only would you find yourself in violation of the minimum standards of
the NEC, you would have also VOIDED any warranty on the unit.

I will print this out and submit it to no less than one master
electrician, one double E and 3 major manufactures to determine if
they would honor warranty next week.

I certianly found your own argument of being allowed to size to MOCP a
bit more reasonable, but perhaps I have forgotten enough of it to
realize you also indicated it was acceptable to exceed the MOP on the
name plate.

FYI HACR breakers and fuses are DESIGNED to withstand damn it I forget
now, but if I recall correctly 6 times the rating for a few seconds to
prevent trips due to LRA. I find the idea of placing a 100 amp breaker
on number 10 wire to a device with normal loading of under 30 amps
flat out idiotic and a significant diservice to the client.

Keep your liability insurance paid up.
  #69   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"REL" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:48:59 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:



http://homewiringandmore.com/homewir...hvac/hvac.html

If you find supporting information I will own my mistake infront of
god and everybody. Perhaps that is a difference you do not see in me.
I do not care if I am wrong, I only seek to correct it when I am.

the other rich


THIS DOCUMENT IS BASED ON THE 1999 NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE AND IS
DESIGNED TO GIVE YOU AN OPTION, AS A SELF HELP, THAT SHOULD PASS
MINIMUM CODE REQUIREMENTS. WHILE EXTREME CARE HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED IN
THE PREPARATION OF THIS SELF HELP DOCUMENT, THE AUTHOR AND / OR
PROVIDER OF THIS DOCUMENT ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ERRORS OR
OMISSIONS, NOR IS ANY LIABILITY ASSUMED FROM TNE USE OF THE
INFORMATION CONTAINED WITHIN THIS DOCUMENT BY THE AUTHOR OR PROVIDER.

Good thing he has that in place wouldn't you say.


Standard ho hum disclaimer.


This is the one you showed me before, it is NOT compelling at all sir.
The author is stating that a unit with a MCA of 27Amps and a MOCP of
45 may be connected with number 10 wire and a 100 amp fuse. All
because of the LRA of the compressor motor.

He is full of ****.


Did I not say there was a typo? If the typo were brought to his attention,
and he did not correct it within a reasonable time, yes, I agree he would
most definitely be full of ****.


He even discusses the MOCP lol.


So, you're gonna knock down the rest of his discussion because of a typo?

Volts500 this is the SAME thing again. Here is the deal. By exceeding
the MOCP stated on the plate, he is wrong.


As far as the typo, yes he's wrong. The MOCP as _illustrated_ was 45 amps,
not 100 amps.

Now before you go into a
long drawn out disertation about how it is just MY opinion I will
check into this very situation.


I agree that it's wrong, again it's a typo. I knew there was a typo when I
read it, I _said_ there was a typo right next to the link, and of course I
expected you to make a big deal about it.


I am certianly of the opinion that should you opt to wire this with
number 10 wire and protect it with a 100amp HACR fuse or breaker not
only would you find yourself in violation of the minimum standards of
the NEC, you would have also VOIDED any warranty on the unit.


Again, no disagreement.

I will print this out and submit it to no less than one master
electrician, one double E and 3 major manufactures to determine if
they would honor warranty next week.


I won't argue either. They will probably laugh at you for making such a big
deal out of a typo though.


I certianly found your own argument of being allowed to size to MOCP a
bit more reasonable, but perhaps I have forgotten enough of it to
realize you also indicated it was acceptable to exceed the MOP on the
name plate.


No, never have, never will. Please don't make things up.

FYI HACR breakers and fuses are DESIGNED to withstand damn it I forget
now, but if I recall correctly 6 times the rating for a few seconds to
prevent trips due to LRA. I find the idea of placing a 100 amp breaker
on number 10 wire to a device with normal loading of under 30 amps
flat out idiotic and a significant diservice to the client.


For the seventh time..........I AGREE.......can you say TYPO!?

OK, you made your point about the typo......YOU FOUND THE TYPO!!! Now plug
in the (illustrated) nameplate numbers and try to make the same argument. I
find it interesting that you conveniently had ABSOLUTELY NO COMMENT
regarding the very _first_ link that I provided. Here let me post it again:
http://www.ecmag.com/editorial_detail.aspx?id=1086
It's time to settle this, Rich. Please comment on the above link.



  #70   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"REL" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:48:59 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:



http://homewiringandmore.com/homewir...hvac/hvac.html

If you find supporting information I will own my mistake infront of
god and everybody. Perhaps that is a difference you do not see in me.
I do not care if I am wrong, I only seek to correct it when I am.

the other rich


THIS DOCUMENT IS BASED ON THE 1999 NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE AND IS
DESIGNED TO GIVE YOU AN OPTION, AS A SELF HELP, THAT SHOULD PASS
MINIMUM CODE REQUIREMENTS. WHILE EXTREME CARE HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED IN
THE PREPARATION OF THIS SELF HELP DOCUMENT, THE AUTHOR AND / OR
PROVIDER OF THIS DOCUMENT ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ERRORS OR
OMISSIONS, NOR IS ANY LIABILITY ASSUMED FROM TNE USE OF THE
INFORMATION CONTAINED WITHIN THIS DOCUMENT BY THE AUTHOR OR PROVIDER.

Good thing he has that in place wouldn't you say.


Standard ho hum disclaimer.


This is the one you showed me before, it is NOT compelling at all sir.
The author is stating that a unit with a MCA of 27Amps and a MOCP of
45 may be connected with number 10 wire and a 100 amp fuse. All
because of the LRA of the compressor motor.

He is full of ****.


Did I not say there was a typo? If the typo were brought to his attention,
and he did not correct it within a reasonable time, yes, I agree he would
most definitely be full of ****.


He even discusses the MOCP lol.


So, you're gonna knock down the rest of his discussion because of a typo?

Volts500 this is the SAME thing again. Here is the deal. By exceeding
the MOCP stated on the plate, he is wrong.


As far as the typo, yes he's wrong. The MOCP as _illustrated_ was 45 amps,
not 100 amps.

Now before you go into a
long drawn out disertation about how it is just MY opinion I will
check into this very situation.


I agree that it's wrong, again it's a typo. I knew there was a typo when I
read it, I _said_ there was a typo right next to the link, and of course I
expected you to make a big deal about it.


I am certianly of the opinion that should you opt to wire this with
number 10 wire and protect it with a 100amp HACR fuse or breaker not
only would you find yourself in violation of the minimum standards of
the NEC, you would have also VOIDED any warranty on the unit.


Again, no disagreement.

I will print this out and submit it to no less than one master
electrician, one double E and 3 major manufactures to determine if
they would honor warranty next week.


I won't argue either. They will probably laugh at you for making such a big
deal out of a typo though.


I certianly found your own argument of being allowed to size to MOCP a
bit more reasonable, but perhaps I have forgotten enough of it to
realize you also indicated it was acceptable to exceed the MOP on the
name plate.


No, never have, never will. Please don't make things up.

FYI HACR breakers and fuses are DESIGNED to withstand damn it I forget
now, but if I recall correctly 6 times the rating for a few seconds to
prevent trips due to LRA. I find the idea of placing a 100 amp breaker
on number 10 wire to a device with normal loading of under 30 amps
flat out idiotic and a significant diservice to the client.


For the seventh time..........I AGREE.......can you say TYPO!?

OK, you made your point about the typo......YOU FOUND THE TYPO!!! Now plug
in the (illustrated) nameplate numbers and try to make the same argument. I
find it interesting that you conveniently had ABSOLUTELY NO COMMENT
regarding the very _first_ link that I provided. Here let me post it again:
http://www.ecmag.com/editorial_detail.aspx?id=1086
It's time to settle this, Rich. Please comment on the above link.





  #71   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

I knew we had settled on this before but I was positive for some
reason your orginal post had indicated the 100 amp page was fine. Your
calling it a typo on the guys part. Most typo's happen once, not a
five paragraph explanation of why a value is acceptable.

Now more to the point. Your response back to the group was bring up a
settled disagreement. we hashed it all not then and I stated you were
correct and I was wrong at that time. You have brought it back up as
if that never happened. It did, and you responded to it happening. I
have no idea why you seek to fuss so much, particularly with me.

You are allowed to wire for the MCA and proctect at the MOCP. It is
also not wise to do so all the time. The NEC specs MINIMAL standards.
The discussion you brought up again this time in your last post refers
to a 15 amp load on 14 gauge wire with 30 amp protection. While this
might be acceptable as a minimum standard, 14 gauge wire will cause
significant voltage drop within a very short distance. The cost
savings on such an application does not have value over safety and
equipment life. If it was a long enough run to save much money at all,
it was too long for the voltage drop involved.

I have no idea of why you can not let it go, especialy since it has
already been stated you were correct. At best all that is left is a
disagreement with what is best practice. I am pretty sure we both
agreed that careful consideration to many things might make one choose
not to use the minimum standards set forth by the NEC.

Here is a link to where this all ended sir, if you can explain why it
is come up again for any purpose other than to argue, please explain
to me where the problem remains as it is very unclear to me.

http://www.google.com/groups?q=g:thl...paba y.rr.com

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 04:38:04 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:


  #72   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

I knew we had settled on this before but I was positive for some
reason your orginal post had indicated the 100 amp page was fine. Your
calling it a typo on the guys part. Most typo's happen once, not a
five paragraph explanation of why a value is acceptable.

Now more to the point. Your response back to the group was bring up a
settled disagreement. we hashed it all not then and I stated you were
correct and I was wrong at that time. You have brought it back up as
if that never happened. It did, and you responded to it happening. I
have no idea why you seek to fuss so much, particularly with me.

You are allowed to wire for the MCA and proctect at the MOCP. It is
also not wise to do so all the time. The NEC specs MINIMAL standards.
The discussion you brought up again this time in your last post refers
to a 15 amp load on 14 gauge wire with 30 amp protection. While this
might be acceptable as a minimum standard, 14 gauge wire will cause
significant voltage drop within a very short distance. The cost
savings on such an application does not have value over safety and
equipment life. If it was a long enough run to save much money at all,
it was too long for the voltage drop involved.

I have no idea of why you can not let it go, especialy since it has
already been stated you were correct. At best all that is left is a
disagreement with what is best practice. I am pretty sure we both
agreed that careful consideration to many things might make one choose
not to use the minimum standards set forth by the NEC.

Here is a link to where this all ended sir, if you can explain why it
is come up again for any purpose other than to argue, please explain
to me where the problem remains as it is very unclear to me.

http://www.google.com/groups?q=g:thl...paba y.rr.com

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 04:38:04 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:


  #73   Report Post  
klm
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:50:26 GMT, klm wrote:


The mechanism is as simple as it gets with a 1/2HP electric motor
turning a squirrel cage fan via a pulley and belt. Tried to be a bit
too clever when it was new and added grease to the bronze bearings for
the squirrel cage axle. That grease dried up fast, probably wore the
bronze bearings to give a dirty dark abrasive crud (oxidized bronze.)
I had to change the bearings twice within 3 years before I wised up
and figured that the bearings were meant to run dry. The damaged
bearings were ovalled so that the axle could flop around and the
furnace gave a loud clunk everytime it started up or stopped. It
squealed like a stuck pig when the fan was turning. The furnace had
been running fine for more than 10 years since I omitted that grease.


The ovalling of the bearings part bugged me. Finally recalled the old
(10 year) sequence of what happened.

A newspaper story on prepping for winter caught my eye. It was to
check the furnace for clean filters, etc. plus check the fan belt
tension. So tightened the belt.. After some time the furnace fan
started to squeak so added some grease and 10/30W lube oil. Tensioned
the belt again. That grease dried up so added more and tensioned the
belt again. Recurring problem and now the fan started to clunk every
time it started or stopped. After two seasons the squirrel cage fan
and the floor of the furnace was spattered with grease and lube oil.
So decided to take out the assembly to clean. Found the bearings
ovalled and the fan shaft scoured. Replaced those.

The above same problems developed over time again. By my third
service effort figured that the bearings were not meant to be lubed.
More important the belt tension should be just what the motor weight
is as mounted on its hinge.

No problem since.

  #74   Report Post  
klm
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:50:26 GMT, klm wrote:


The mechanism is as simple as it gets with a 1/2HP electric motor
turning a squirrel cage fan via a pulley and belt. Tried to be a bit
too clever when it was new and added grease to the bronze bearings for
the squirrel cage axle. That grease dried up fast, probably wore the
bronze bearings to give a dirty dark abrasive crud (oxidized bronze.)
I had to change the bearings twice within 3 years before I wised up
and figured that the bearings were meant to run dry. The damaged
bearings were ovalled so that the axle could flop around and the
furnace gave a loud clunk everytime it started up or stopped. It
squealed like a stuck pig when the fan was turning. The furnace had
been running fine for more than 10 years since I omitted that grease.


The ovalling of the bearings part bugged me. Finally recalled the old
(10 year) sequence of what happened.

A newspaper story on prepping for winter caught my eye. It was to
check the furnace for clean filters, etc. plus check the fan belt
tension. So tightened the belt.. After some time the furnace fan
started to squeak so added some grease and 10/30W lube oil. Tensioned
the belt again. That grease dried up so added more and tensioned the
belt again. Recurring problem and now the fan started to clunk every
time it started or stopped. After two seasons the squirrel cage fan
and the floor of the furnace was spattered with grease and lube oil.
So decided to take out the assembly to clean. Found the bearings
ovalled and the fan shaft scoured. Replaced those.

The above same problems developed over time again. By my third
service effort figured that the bearings were not meant to be lubed.
More important the belt tension should be just what the motor weight
is as mounted on its hinge.

No problem since.

  #75   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"REL" wrote in message
...

I knew we had settled on this before but I was positive for some
reason your orginal post had indicated the 100 amp page was fine. Your
calling it a typo on the guys part. Most typo's happen once, not a
five paragraph explanation of why a value is acceptable.


The "five paragraph explanation" makes perfect sense once the typo is
corrected. You're grasping for straws and you know it.

Now more to the point. Your response back to the group was bring up a
settled disagreement.
we hashed it all not then and I stated you were
correct and I was wrong at that time.


No, REL, you talked out of both sides of your mouth, just like you're doing
now.

You have brought it back up as
if that never happened. It did, and you responded to it happening. I
have no idea why you seek to fuss so much, particularly with me.



Well , SIR, is this _not_ your statement from just a few posts ago???:

"I am not going to spend any more time on the topic researching my own
arguments sir. If you find any support for your maintaining that you
can wire the unit for the MCA and then protect it with the MOCP put a
link here in this thread as I marked it for retrieval.

If you find supporting information I will own my mistake infront of
god and everybody. Perhaps that is a difference you do not see in me.
I do not care if I am wrong, I only seek to correct it when I am."


I don't see anywhere in that statement that you said were wrong. Quite the
opposite, SIR.


You are allowed to wire for the MCA and proctect at the MOCP.


This is how the whole argument got started in the first place! You were
maintaining in _no_ uncertain terms that this _very_ statement (by me, BTW)
was
incorrect. OK, I get it, yesterday you were adamant that one cannot "wire
the unit for the MCA and then protect it with the MOCP", but today, after
reading the link that I provided, you're saying the exact opposite.


It is
also not wise to do so all the time. The NEC specs MINIMAL standards.
The discussion you brought up again this time in your last post refers
to a 15 amp load on 14 gauge wire with 30 amp protection.


Imagine that! A TYPO! The MOCP was _clearly_ stated as 25 amps in the
article for the link that I provided. I suppose
it's OK when _you_ make a typo, but not other's?


While this
might be acceptable as a minimum standard,


Is this your admission of your mistake "in front God and everybody"?

14 gauge wire will cause
significant voltage drop within a very short distance. The cost
savings on such an application does not have value over safety and
equipment life. If it was a long enough run to save much money at all,
it was too long for the voltage drop involved.



Well, SIR, keep backpedaling. The original discussion was per NEC, and you
know it. You were very adamant in the old discussion, and even just a few
days ago, that I was wrong. Here, let me refresh your memory of your
original stance: http://tinyurl.com/wvsh

Are these _not_ your words from the above link to that thread?:

"if you have a 40 amp breaker, the ampacity of the WIRE aka conductor
shall be rated no less than 40 amps, the end. "

I've already addressed the economic issues of "over and beyond" the NEC in
the old thread,
http://tinyurl.com/ww6h

Your condescending manner seems to prevail, as usual.

I have no idea of why you can not let it go, especialy since it has
already been stated you were correct.


No, REL, it was never stated that I was correct, as witnessed by your above
quoted post of just a few days ago.

At best all that is left is a
disagreement with what is best practice. I am pretty sure we both
agreed that careful consideration to many things might make one choose
not to use the minimum standards set forth by the NEC.

Here is a link to where this all ended sir, if you can explain why it
is come up again for any purpose other than to argue, please explain
to me where the problem remains as it is very unclear to me.


Well, SIR, I snipped the link because it doesn't come close to "where this
all ended".







  #76   Report Post  
volts500
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"REL" wrote in message
...

I knew we had settled on this before but I was positive for some
reason your orginal post had indicated the 100 amp page was fine. Your
calling it a typo on the guys part. Most typo's happen once, not a
five paragraph explanation of why a value is acceptable.


The "five paragraph explanation" makes perfect sense once the typo is
corrected. You're grasping for straws and you know it.

Now more to the point. Your response back to the group was bring up a
settled disagreement.
we hashed it all not then and I stated you were
correct and I was wrong at that time.


No, REL, you talked out of both sides of your mouth, just like you're doing
now.

You have brought it back up as
if that never happened. It did, and you responded to it happening. I
have no idea why you seek to fuss so much, particularly with me.



Well , SIR, is this _not_ your statement from just a few posts ago???:

"I am not going to spend any more time on the topic researching my own
arguments sir. If you find any support for your maintaining that you
can wire the unit for the MCA and then protect it with the MOCP put a
link here in this thread as I marked it for retrieval.

If you find supporting information I will own my mistake infront of
god and everybody. Perhaps that is a difference you do not see in me.
I do not care if I am wrong, I only seek to correct it when I am."


I don't see anywhere in that statement that you said were wrong. Quite the
opposite, SIR.


You are allowed to wire for the MCA and proctect at the MOCP.


This is how the whole argument got started in the first place! You were
maintaining in _no_ uncertain terms that this _very_ statement (by me, BTW)
was
incorrect. OK, I get it, yesterday you were adamant that one cannot "wire
the unit for the MCA and then protect it with the MOCP", but today, after
reading the link that I provided, you're saying the exact opposite.


It is
also not wise to do so all the time. The NEC specs MINIMAL standards.
The discussion you brought up again this time in your last post refers
to a 15 amp load on 14 gauge wire with 30 amp protection.


Imagine that! A TYPO! The MOCP was _clearly_ stated as 25 amps in the
article for the link that I provided. I suppose
it's OK when _you_ make a typo, but not other's?


While this
might be acceptable as a minimum standard,


Is this your admission of your mistake "in front God and everybody"?

14 gauge wire will cause
significant voltage drop within a very short distance. The cost
savings on such an application does not have value over safety and
equipment life. If it was a long enough run to save much money at all,
it was too long for the voltage drop involved.



Well, SIR, keep backpedaling. The original discussion was per NEC, and you
know it. You were very adamant in the old discussion, and even just a few
days ago, that I was wrong. Here, let me refresh your memory of your
original stance: http://tinyurl.com/wvsh

Are these _not_ your words from the above link to that thread?:

"if you have a 40 amp breaker, the ampacity of the WIRE aka conductor
shall be rated no less than 40 amps, the end. "

I've already addressed the economic issues of "over and beyond" the NEC in
the old thread,
http://tinyurl.com/ww6h

Your condescending manner seems to prevail, as usual.

I have no idea of why you can not let it go, especialy since it has
already been stated you were correct.


No, REL, it was never stated that I was correct, as witnessed by your above
quoted post of just a few days ago.

At best all that is left is a
disagreement with what is best practice. I am pretty sure we both
agreed that careful consideration to many things might make one choose
not to use the minimum standards set forth by the NEC.

Here is a link to where this all ended sir, if you can explain why it
is come up again for any purpose other than to argue, please explain
to me where the problem remains as it is very unclear to me.


Well, SIR, I snipped the link because it doesn't come close to "where this
all ended".





  #77   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 15:59:11 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:

Dude,

If your dick is as short as your memory, I feel for your partner, I
really do.

You have a real ****ing problem not with electrical understanding but
with being wrong. Your so ****ing narrow minded and self centered you
want to argue about being wrong about being right and being told you
were right. Get a ****ing clue you idiot and read the ****ing words
again dumbass.

You are correct, according to the NEC you are allowed to wire for the
MCA and protect by the MOCP. For example MCA 30 you may use #10 wire
MOCP of 40 you may use a 40 amp fuse or breaker. You also may use the
30 amp breaker as I stated by sizing it to the wire. There is NOTHING
out of code by doing so as I stated as you are UNDER the MOCP.

I said before and I will say again, I am hard headed and I said you
were 100% right and I was 100% incorrect, it is legal for you to
follow that minmum standard as outlined by the NEC, the authority on
minimum standards.

I also maintain I have no intention of following the minimum standards
and will continue to maintain a higher level of safety to persons and
property by NOT installing the smallest wire on the largest breaker.
The increased cost compared to the increased liability for the client
is small and often non-existant due to other electrical concerns.

By sizing the breaker to meet the ampacity of the wire you maintain
the same standard used for other electrical circuits within a
dwelling.

By wiring an AC unit as I have outlined, you will never have an
inspector question what has been done. Wired as Volts500 has clearly
stated is legal within the minumum standards, an inspector may well
question it at which point you can point out the code sections that
allow it and take great pleasure in pointing out the inspector is
wrong, which Volts500 takes such great pleasure in doing.

Now back to you Volts500, is there anything else I can do to get you
to shut your ****ing pie hole about this one? You were right the first
time, but you were wrong the second, it was already settled, at least
as far as I was concerned. Do you need a wall plaque stating that REL
was wrong and Volts500 was right or what?

FYI, your refrences need more than typo work, read closely and you
will see.

the other rich

PS. I can understand your frustration with some of the cross posting
within alt.home.repair, however, other than a short stint harassing
Tom, I certianly do not bother or help AHR. After it was cleared up
that Tom was not on the pedophile listing for his state I have said
less than ten words to him and have not bothered the AHR group at all.
While I know you are about as hard headed as I am, you should let this
one go, it was settled you were correct back in 04-2003, unless it was
the only time you were ever correct in your life, continuing to bring
it up only makes you look foolish.

  #78   Report Post  
REL
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 15:59:11 GMT, "volts500"
wrote:

Dude,

If your dick is as short as your memory, I feel for your partner, I
really do.

You have a real ****ing problem not with electrical understanding but
with being wrong. Your so ****ing narrow minded and self centered you
want to argue about being wrong about being right and being told you
were right. Get a ****ing clue you idiot and read the ****ing words
again dumbass.

You are correct, according to the NEC you are allowed to wire for the
MCA and protect by the MOCP. For example MCA 30 you may use #10 wire
MOCP of 40 you may use a 40 amp fuse or breaker. You also may use the
30 amp breaker as I stated by sizing it to the wire. There is NOTHING
out of code by doing so as I stated as you are UNDER the MOCP.

I said before and I will say again, I am hard headed and I said you
were 100% right and I was 100% incorrect, it is legal for you to
follow that minmum standard as outlined by the NEC, the authority on
minimum standards.

I also maintain I have no intention of following the minimum standards
and will continue to maintain a higher level of safety to persons and
property by NOT installing the smallest wire on the largest breaker.
The increased cost compared to the increased liability for the client
is small and often non-existant due to other electrical concerns.

By sizing the breaker to meet the ampacity of the wire you maintain
the same standard used for other electrical circuits within a
dwelling.

By wiring an AC unit as I have outlined, you will never have an
inspector question what has been done. Wired as Volts500 has clearly
stated is legal within the minumum standards, an inspector may well
question it at which point you can point out the code sections that
allow it and take great pleasure in pointing out the inspector is
wrong, which Volts500 takes such great pleasure in doing.

Now back to you Volts500, is there anything else I can do to get you
to shut your ****ing pie hole about this one? You were right the first
time, but you were wrong the second, it was already settled, at least
as far as I was concerned. Do you need a wall plaque stating that REL
was wrong and Volts500 was right or what?

FYI, your refrences need more than typo work, read closely and you
will see.

the other rich

PS. I can understand your frustration with some of the cross posting
within alt.home.repair, however, other than a short stint harassing
Tom, I certianly do not bother or help AHR. After it was cleared up
that Tom was not on the pedophile listing for his state I have said
less than ten words to him and have not bothered the AHR group at all.
While I know you are about as hard headed as I am, you should let this
one go, it was settled you were correct back in 04-2003, unless it was
the only time you were ever correct in your life, continuing to bring
it up only makes you look foolish.

  #79   Report Post  
CBHvac
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"klm" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:50:26 GMT, klm wrote:


The mechanism is as simple as it gets with a 1/2HP electric motor
turning a squirrel cage fan via a pulley and belt. Tried to be a bit
too clever when it was new and added grease to the bronze bearings for
the squirrel cage axle. That grease dried up fast, probably wore the
bronze bearings to give a dirty dark abrasive crud (oxidized bronze.)
I had to change the bearings twice within 3 years before I wised up
and figured that the bearings were meant to run dry. The damaged
bearings were ovalled so that the axle could flop around and the
furnace gave a loud clunk everytime it started up or stopped. It
squealed like a stuck pig when the fan was turning. The furnace had
been running fine for more than 10 years since I omitted that grease.


The ovalling of the bearings part bugged me. Finally recalled the old
(10 year) sequence of what happened.

A newspaper story on prepping for winter caught my eye. It was to
check the furnace for clean filters, etc. plus check the fan belt
tension. So tightened the belt.. After some time the furnace fan
started to squeak so added some grease and 10/30W lube oil. Tensioned
the belt again. That grease dried up so added more and tensioned the
belt again. Recurring problem and now the fan started to clunk every
time it started or stopped. After two seasons the squirrel cage fan
and the floor of the furnace was spattered with grease and lube oil.
So decided to take out the assembly to clean. Found the bearings
ovalled and the fan shaft scoured. Replaced those.

The above same problems developed over time again. By my third
service effort figured that the bearings were not meant to be lubed.
More important the belt tension should be just what the motor weight
is as mounted on its hinge.


Ok..first, wrong oil. 20W MAX turbine oil. Period.
Second, belt tension is not set that way...I have motors that weigh enough
that the belt would be overtensioned if you allowed it to set with its full
weight on it.
A properly tensioned belt, to the average layman, would look to be far too
loose to run properly.
Oval bearings? LOL...easy enough...wrong belt tension.

Oh..oil impregnated bronze sleeves normally dont have oil ports...and 10W30
oil, wont harden..oil, isnt grease.

No problem since.



  #80   Report Post  
CBHvac
 
Posts: n/a
Default Blower on furnace hums and doesn't start


"klm" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:50:26 GMT, klm wrote:


The mechanism is as simple as it gets with a 1/2HP electric motor
turning a squirrel cage fan via a pulley and belt. Tried to be a bit
too clever when it was new and added grease to the bronze bearings for
the squirrel cage axle. That grease dried up fast, probably wore the
bronze bearings to give a dirty dark abrasive crud (oxidized bronze.)
I had to change the bearings twice within 3 years before I wised up
and figured that the bearings were meant to run dry. The damaged
bearings were ovalled so that the axle could flop around and the
furnace gave a loud clunk everytime it started up or stopped. It
squealed like a stuck pig when the fan was turning. The furnace had
been running fine for more than 10 years since I omitted that grease.


The ovalling of the bearings part bugged me. Finally recalled the old
(10 year) sequence of what happened.

A newspaper story on prepping for winter caught my eye. It was to
check the furnace for clean filters, etc. plus check the fan belt
tension. So tightened the belt.. After some time the furnace fan
started to squeak so added some grease and 10/30W lube oil. Tensioned
the belt again. That grease dried up so added more and tensioned the
belt again. Recurring problem and now the fan started to clunk every
time it started or stopped. After two seasons the squirrel cage fan
and the floor of the furnace was spattered with grease and lube oil.
So decided to take out the assembly to clean. Found the bearings
ovalled and the fan shaft scoured. Replaced those.

The above same problems developed over time again. By my third
service effort figured that the bearings were not meant to be lubed.
More important the belt tension should be just what the motor weight
is as mounted on its hinge.


Ok..first, wrong oil. 20W MAX turbine oil. Period.
Second, belt tension is not set that way...I have motors that weigh enough
that the belt would be overtensioned if you allowed it to set with its full
weight on it.
A properly tensioned belt, to the average layman, would look to be far too
loose to run properly.
Oval bearings? LOL...easy enough...wrong belt tension.

Oh..oil impregnated bronze sleeves normally dont have oil ports...and 10W30
oil, wont harden..oil, isnt grease.

No problem since.



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