My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame. Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.
Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best. This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.

A new unit is probably adviseable . Today you should go get a Digital
display Co alarm to see if gas Co, is leaking . You didnt mention
what model equipment , btu , effifency, ac size or seer

Yes, I'd definitely call for a second and third company's opinion.

Gas heat flames oughta be blue, and maybe a trace of yellow here or there.
But in my expereince. a cracked heat exchanger doesn't necessarily guarantee
a yellow flame. And smelling gas doesn't necessarily mean a cracked heat
exchanger.

Natural gas heat, and electrically powered AC sounds right to me. But then,
I live in NYS.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn More about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"ishtarbgl" wrote in message
m...
My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame. Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.
Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best. This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.

On 22 Nov 2003 06:06:34 -0800, (ishtarbgl) wrote:

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.

What you need is to call at least 2 other comapnies to come
out and first, diagnose your existing system, and then, if needed,
make suggestions about new equipment.

The mere fact that the flame tips were yellow tells you
exactly nothing about any cracks, and if he tried to tell you it did,
he lied. Throw him out.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me

New HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free demo now available online !!!!
--
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net

"ishtarbgl" wrote in message
m...
My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame.

30 year old gas furnace?? its long past its normal service life of 18 - 20
years.

Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.

Always a good idea.

Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

got model numbers??

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

The outside and inside units work in tandom.... one will not work without
the other

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Your tech appears to be a Rheem dealer... Rheem (when correctly installed)
is top quality equipment.
Call your local building inspector and the Rheem wholesale supply house and
ask the following question.
"Would you trust XYZ company to do a top quality installation of a new
heating and cooling system in *your* family's home?"

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best.

Rheem/RUUD was rated just as high as Trane/American Standard by Consumer
Reports 2 years ago

This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

I can't *see* it from here... I would be inclined to go with the tech's
recomendations

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

natural gas...yes, propane...no. If you do not have nat gas, I would be
looking at a high efficiency heat pump system.

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.

Check this site for information on Rheem equipment
http://www.rheemac.com/


--
Steve @ Noon-Air Heating and A/C


When a work lifts your spirits and inspires bold and noble thoughts in you,
do not look for any other standard to judge by:
the work is good, the product of a master craftsman.
- -- La Bruyere

"ishtarbgl" wrote in message
m...
My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame. Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.
Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best. This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.

This is Turtle.

Stop right here and listen up.

If you have any yellow in the flame of the gas furnace AND the gas stove
TOO. You have a Gas / Air mix problem on your gas system. Here is the list
of possible thing wrong with it.

1) Bad gas pressure to your home. Most of the time the regulator is
malifuctioning.
2) Both stove and Furnace are not set right on air to gas pressure mix. I
see this a lot but mostly on Propane and not Natural gas. You sure you don't
have propane and not natural gas.
3) BOTH the stove and the furnace need cleaning bad enough to cause a poor
air to gas mix.
4) You have a HVAC professional Salesman and Not a HVAC Professional
Repairman looking at it. If you wanted it replaced call a saleman ,. If you
want it repaired, call a Repairman.
5) The system being 30 years old is a good reason to change it out for
efficency and maybe some safety too , but changing it out for poor gas
pressure to your home or poor air fuel mix setting on the equipment is not a
reason to change it out.
6) Here in Louisiana we have a disclosure law when a realestate agency
sells a home and the furnce is found defective with in 2 years. The cost of
fixing or repair of the equipment will be paid by the realstate agent's
coverage insurance that they must carry to be a agent. If they told you that
the furnace was defective and needed some major repair. they are off the
hook and only if they told you in writting [ look in the conditions of Sale
on the contract ] . Anything not disclosed at time of the sale is covered
under insurance.

Now the brands you spoke about. i would go with the Rheem here in Louisiana
for parts are real easy to get and warehouses are everywhere. The American
standard / Trane parts are hard to get here in Louisiana and would be a
problem if you need them in a hurry. Alway buy brand / equipment that you
can get parts for them easily in your area or state. Now to the quality of
the AS / Trane verses the Rheem . Well I see very little difference in
quality as to speak of but let the price and avaiability of parts be your
guide.

Where you at Boy? I live in Louisiana Too at Oakdale , Louisiana / Central
Louisiana. E-Mail me or get with me and i will look at this circus forming
around you. I can't stand it when people start lieing to others around me.
Use the E-Mail address here on the newsgroup or post back here.

My Bull**** Indicator is reading 9 out of a scale of 1 to 10.

I'm not saing not to change it out but not for the reason stated here. After
30 years of service. I would say you might need to get a new one.

TURTLE

ishtarbgl wrote in message
.. .
My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame. Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.
Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best. This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.

This is a chance to demonstrate how public-spirited you are.

1. Call cops
2. Cooperate with cops in setting up sting operation for these birds who
are trying to adjust your disposable income for the coming year or two.

Yellow flame means insufficient air. Usually can be adjusted in the
twinkle on an eye. . .or the flick of a wrist just before you got there
(i.e. from blue to yellow for the sales pitch)

Cracked heat exchangers are as old a furnace scam as there is. However,
they usually pull it on older widows. Going after expectant parents is a
stroke of genius.

Regards
Old Al

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...
My Bull**** Indicator is reading 9 out of a scale of 1 to 10.

Mine too. :-)

I'm not saing not to change it out but not for the reason stated here.
After
30 years of service. I would say you might need to get a new one.

Changing it out for efficiency reasons is a good thing
(but, it should be the owners choice)

Not someone scaring you into buying a furnace because of *YELLOW* flame.

TURTLE


--
kjpro
_-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-_

( kjpro @ starband . net ) remove spaces to e-mail

Want it done yesterday? Or done right today, to save money tomorrow!!

_________________________ __

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 15:25:42 -0500, "oldal4865"
wrote:


ishtarbgl wrote in message
. ..
My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame. Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.
Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best. This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.

This is a chance to demonstrate how public-spirited you are.

1. Call cops
2. Cooperate with cops in setting up sting operation for these birds who
are trying to adjust your disposable income for the coming year or two.

Yellow flame means insufficient air. Usually can be adjusted in the
twinkle on an eye. . .or the flick of a wrist just before you got there
(i.e. from blue to yellow for the sales pitch)

Cracked heat exchangers are as old a furnace scam as there is. However,
they usually pull it on older widows. Going after expectant parents is a
stroke of genius.

Regards
Old Al

Old Al,
Your advice was ok up until the last paragraph. A cracked heat
exchanger is NOT AN OLD SCAM, you fool. Anything can be a scam but a
real crack in a heat exchanger is not something to take lightly. Was
that furnace really cracked? I have NO unearthly idea. A second
opinion is in order. Dont make everyone think a crack is a scam. Its
Not.
Bubba

First thing you should do is immediately go out and buy a Carbon Monoxide
detector if you do not have one (every home should have one no matter
what).. If it is is a cracked heat exchanger you run the risk of having
having carbon monoxide get into your home especially with the yellow flame
you mentioned which indicates improper combustion. Definitely get a 2nd and
perhaps a 3rd opinion/estimate. As for choosing contractors - you may want
to look at contractors that have been around a while and maybe ask neighbors
and co-workers. Then after you get 2 or 3 companies in mind contact the
local BBB office and see if any of them have unresolved complaints against
them and how many (even a good contractor may get complaints against them
but they will work to resolve them).

Henry

"ishtarbgl" wrote in message
m...
My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame. Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.
Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best. This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.

Bubba wrote in message ...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 15:25:42 -0500, "oldal4865"
wrote:


ishtarbgl wrote in message
...

This is a chance to demonstrate how public-spirited you are.

1. Call cops
2. Cooperate with cops in setting up sting operation for these birds
who
are trying to adjust your disposable income for the coming year or two.

Yellow flame means insufficient air. Usually can be adjusted in the
twinkle on an eye. . .or the flick of a wrist just before you got there
(i.e. from blue to yellow for the sales pitch)

Cracked heat exchangers are as old a furnace scam as there is. However,
they usually pull it on older widows. Going after expectant parents is a
stroke of genius.

Regards
Old Al

Old Al,
Your advice was ok up until the last paragraph. A cracked heat
exchanger is NOT AN OLD SCAM, you fool. Anything can be a scam but a
real crack in a heat exchanger is not something to take lightly. Was
that furnace really cracked? I have NO unearthly idea. A second
opinion is in order. Dont make everyone think a crack is a scam. Its
Not.
Bubba

See the "evidence" of a cracked heat exchanger. . .the yellow flame.

We had the cops put out a newspaper bulletin when birds like that came
through our town.

Regards
Old Al

A yellow flame means nothing more than incomplete combustion. With a 30
year furnace a cracked heat exchanger is probable but the immediate
concern is not smelling gas. I'd get a carbon monoxide detector. (I
have a 30 year old furnace and do not fear using it.) If you are ok
with respect to CO levels I'd not be too concerned while I shopped for
an intelligent and honest a/c contractor. This may take several tries
though.

Boden

ishtarbgl wrote:

My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame. Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.
Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best. This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.

Turtle,

Do you have a spell checker? Do you know how to use it?

Since you don't know how to spell I'd suggest that you figure out how to
use the spell checker.

B

TURTLE wrote:

"ishtarbgl" wrote in message
m...

My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame. Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.
Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best. This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.


This is Turtle.

Stop right here and listen up.

If you have any yellow in the flame of the gas furnace AND the gas stove
TOO. You have a Gas / Air mix problem on your gas system. Here is the list
of possible thing wrong with it.

1) Bad gas pressure to your home. Most of the time the regulator is
malifuctioning.
2) Both stove and Furnace are not set right on air to gas pressure mix. I
see this a lot but mostly on Propane and not Natural gas. You sure you don't
have propane and not natural gas.
3) BOTH the stove and the furnace need cleaning bad enough to cause a poor
air to gas mix.
4) You have a HVAC professional Salesman and Not a HVAC Professional
Repairman looking at it. If you wanted it replaced call a saleman ,. If you
want it repaired, call a Repairman.
5) The system being 30 years old is a good reason to change it out for
efficency and maybe some safety too , but changing it out for poor gas
pressure to your home or poor air fuel mix setting on the equipment is not a
reason to change it out.
6) Here in Louisiana we have a disclosure law when a realestate agency
sells a home and the furnce is found defective with in 2 years. The cost of
fixing or repair of the equipment will be paid by the realstate agent's
coverage insurance that they must carry to be a agent. If they told you that
the furnace was defective and needed some major repair. they are off the
hook and only if they told you in writting [ look in the conditions of Sale
on the contract ] . Anything not disclosed at time of the sale is covered
under insurance.

Now the brands you spoke about. i would go with the Rheem here in Louisiana
for parts are real easy to get and warehouses are everywhere. The American
standard / Trane parts are hard to get here in Louisiana and would be a
problem if you need them in a hurry. Alway buy brand / equipment that you
can get parts for them easily in your area or state. Now to the quality of
the AS / Trane verses the Rheem . Well I see very little difference in
quality as to speak of but let the price and avaiability of parts be your
guide.

Where you at Boy? I live in Louisiana Too at Oakdale , Louisiana / Central
Louisiana. E-Mail me or get with me and i will look at this circus forming
around you. I can't stand it when people start lieing to others around me.
Use the E-Mail address here on the newsgroup or post back here.

My Bull**** Indicator is reading 9 out of a scale of 1 to 10.

I'm not saing not to change it out but not for the reason stated here. After
30 years of service. I would say you might need to get a new one.

TURTLE

Dude...thats just Turtle......but also keep in mind that he has probably
forgotten more than most of the rest of us know.

--
Steve @ Noon-Air Heating and A/C


When a work lifts your spirits and inspires bold and noble thoughts in you,
do not look for any other standard to judge by:
the work is good, the product of a master craftsman.
- -- La Bruyere

"EL" wrote in message
news
Turtle,

Do you have a spell checker? Do you know how to use it?

Since you don't know how to spell I'd suggest that you figure out how to
use the spell checker.

B

TURTLE wrote:

"ishtarbgl" wrote in message
m...

My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame. Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.
Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best. This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.


This is Turtle.

Stop right here and listen up.

If you have any yellow in the flame of the gas furnace AND the gas stove
TOO. You have a Gas / Air mix problem on your gas system. Here is the
list
of possible thing wrong with it.

1) Bad gas pressure to your home. Most of the time the regulator is
malifuctioning.
2) Both stove and Furnace are not set right on air to gas pressure
mix. I
see this a lot but mostly on Propane and not Natural gas. You sure you
don't
have propane and not natural gas.
3) BOTH the stove and the furnace need cleaning bad enough to cause a
poor
air to gas mix.
4) You have a HVAC professional Salesman and Not a HVAC Professional
Repairman looking at it. If you wanted it replaced call a saleman ,. If
you
want it repaired, call a Repairman.
5) The system being 30 years old is a good reason to change it out for
efficency and maybe some safety too , but changing it out for poor gas
pressure to your home or poor air fuel mix setting on the equipment is
not a
reason to change it out.
6) Here in Louisiana we have a disclosure law when a realestate agency
sells a home and the furnce is found defective with in 2 years. The cost
of
fixing or repair of the equipment will be paid by the realstate agent's
coverage insurance that they must carry to be a agent. If they told you
that
the furnace was defective and needed some major repair. they are off the
hook and only if they told you in writting [ look in the conditions of
Sale
on the contract ] . Anything not disclosed at time of the sale is
covered
under insurance.

Now the brands you spoke about. i would go with the Rheem here in
Louisiana
for parts are real easy to get and warehouses are everywhere. The
American
standard / Trane parts are hard to get here in Louisiana and would be a
problem if you need them in a hurry. Alway buy brand / equipment that
you
can get parts for them easily in your area or state. Now to the quality
of
the AS / Trane verses the Rheem . Well I see very little difference in
quality as to speak of but let the price and avaiability of parts be
your
guide.

Where you at Boy? I live in Louisiana Too at Oakdale , Louisiana /
Central
Louisiana. E-Mail me or get with me and i will look at this circus
forming
around you. I can't stand it when people start lieing to others around
me.
Use the E-Mail address here on the newsgroup or post back here.

My Bull**** Indicator is reading 9 out of a scale of 1 to 10.

I'm not saing not to change it out but not for the reason stated here.
After
30 years of service. I would say you might need to get a new one.

TURTLE

If you don't like Turtle's posts, I'd suggest you don't
****ing read them.

He happens to be a long-standing well-respected member of this
group, which is a damned site more than you can say.

And we *like* the way he talks, spelling and all !!!


On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 01:43:49 GMT, EL wrote:

Turtle,

Do you have a spell checker? Do you know how to use it?

Since you don't know how to spell I'd suggest that you figure out how to
use the spell checker.

B


Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me

New HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free demo now available online !!!!
--
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net

Thank you so much for all the advice. I am starting to gain some
knowledge that will hopefully help me here. I should qualify one
thing I mentioned earlier. I didn't mean to imply that the furnace
was 30 years old because the house is from my initial post. The
furnace was manufactured in 1985 making it right at 19 years old. I
realize this is still very old and probably on its last leg but not
30.

A previous poster asked what part of LA I am from. I live in New
Orleans.

The advice about the BBB was very good. I had not even considered
that.

Ultimately, I do know I need more information. It is just hard to
tell in the yellow pages who is good and who isn't. I'll ask around
and see if I can find a contractor that seems reliable. This is one
thing I don't really want to mess around with. If I have to pay a
slightly higher price then so be it. I just want the job done right
since heating and ac are obviously so important to any house.

Thanks again to everyone and if you have any other input please let me
know. It is appreciated.

"EL" wrote in message
news
Turtle,

Do you have a spell checker? Do you know how to use it?

Since you don't know how to spell I'd suggest that you figure out how to
use the spell checker.

B

this is turtle.

Suoery about steppming on yourn little tippey toes. I knodded it is bad but
I will come mittest to do better nextey timey.

TURTLE

"EL" wrote in message
news
Turtle,

Do you have a spell checker? Do you know how to use it?

Since you don't know how to spell I'd suggest that you figure out how to
use the spell checker.

B

Do you have a personality? Do you know what one is?

Since you dont have one, I would suggest you figure out how to overcome your
attitudnal issues.


TURTLE wrote:

"ishtarbgl" wrote in message
m...

My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame. Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.
Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best. This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.


This is Turtle.

Stop right here and listen up.

If you have any yellow in the flame of the gas furnace AND the gas stove
TOO. You have a Gas / Air mix problem on your gas system. Here is the
list
of possible thing wrong with it.

1) Bad gas pressure to your home. Most of the time the regulator is
malifuctioning.
2) Both stove and Furnace are not set right on air to gas pressure
mix. I
see this a lot but mostly on Propane and not Natural gas. You sure you
don't
have propane and not natural gas.
3) BOTH the stove and the furnace need cleaning bad enough to cause a
poor
air to gas mix.
4) You have a HVAC professional Salesman and Not a HVAC Professional
Repairman looking at it. If you wanted it replaced call a saleman ,. If
you
want it repaired, call a Repairman.
5) The system being 30 years old is a good reason to change it out for
efficency and maybe some safety too , but changing it out for poor gas
pressure to your home or poor air fuel mix setting on the equipment is
not a
reason to change it out.
6) Here in Louisiana we have a disclosure law when a realestate agency
sells a home and the furnce is found defective with in 2 years. The cost
of
fixing or repair of the equipment will be paid by the realstate agent's
coverage insurance that they must carry to be a agent. If they told you
that
the furnace was defective and needed some major repair. they are off the
hook and only if they told you in writting [ look in the conditions of
Sale
on the contract ] . Anything not disclosed at time of the sale is
covered
under insurance.

Now the brands you spoke about. i would go with the Rheem here in
Louisiana
for parts are real easy to get and warehouses are everywhere. The
American
standard / Trane parts are hard to get here in Louisiana and would be a
problem if you need them in a hurry. Alway buy brand / equipment that
you
can get parts for them easily in your area or state. Now to the quality
of
the AS / Trane verses the Rheem . Well I see very little difference in
quality as to speak of but let the price and avaiability of parts be
your
guide.

Where you at Boy? I live in Louisiana Too at Oakdale , Louisiana /
Central
Louisiana. E-Mail me or get with me and i will look at this circus
forming
around you. I can't stand it when people start lieing to others around
me.
Use the E-Mail address here on the newsgroup or post back here.

My Bull**** Indicator is reading 9 out of a scale of 1 to 10.

I'm not saing not to change it out but not for the reason stated here.
After
30 years of service. I would say you might need to get a new one.

TURTLE

"EL" wrote in message
link.net...
A yellow flame means nothing more than incomplete combustion.

Wrong.
Since you dont have a clue...print this out, and you can say you do......C L
U E



With a 30
year furnace a cracked heat exchanger is probable but the immediate
concern is not smelling gas.

ENGLISH mother****er...do you speak it?


I'd get a carbon monoxide detector. (I
have a 30 year old furnace and do not fear using it.) If you are ok
with respect to CO levels I'd not be too concerned while I shopped for
an intelligent and honest a/c contractor. This may take several tries
though.

No more than trying to find a homeowner that isnt cheap, and has attitudnal
issues in respect to ancient tanks that you like to call a furnace.


Boden



ishtarbgl wrote:

My wife and I moved into a 30 year-old house a year ago. Everything
worked ok over the past year but I have never been please with the
A/C. Well, as winter slowly approaches here in Louisiana I go to turn
on my Gas heater and smell a small hint of gas. Again, my pregnant
wife smells it too. So I shut everything down including the pilot
light and call someone to come and inspect it. I am clueless when it
comes to this equipment and service so I just picked someone out of
the yellow pages that appeared professional. A man shows up and
immediately panics and says I have a cracked chamber. He says the
evidence of this is to look at the flame where it is yellow? Isn't
most fire yellow to some degree? I go down to my gas stove and see
the same type of flame. Of course I do plan to get a second opinion.
Anyway, he has his boss come out and take a look to see what it would
cost to basically replace everything and do some needed duct work.
Here is what he proposed:

Rheem 12 SEER (electric a/c and inside gas furnace part)
redo and add some duct work throughout the house
redo some of the piping that goes from the outside unit to the inside
unit
raise the slab where my outside unit will be so it is to code
Cost: $5600 (includes tax and everything)

Ultimately, it does sound like quite a bit of work and everything he
proposed makes sense. However, if you haven't already been able to
tell from my description (i.e. outside unit vs. inside unit) I am
completely naive about this whole process. So if anyone out there can
help me I sure would appreciate it.

My concerns are this:
How should I choose someone to do this type of work? I want it done
right but I can't really tell from the yellow pages who is
professional and who isn't.

Is Rheem the manufacturer I should go with? I have always heard that
Trane and American Standard was best. This guy that gave me this
quote even said that American Standard is probably a little better
than Rheem but given my installation he said Rheem would be best.
Again, I just don't know.

Is electric A/C and Gas heat really the way to go? Should I be
considering other options?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Simply put I am lost but have to
get this done since Winter will be here before I know it and I don't
want to risk any development issues with our new baby.

Don't forget the co detector in the mean time to be safe...

"ishtarbgl" wrote in message
m...
Thank you so much for all the advice. I am starting to gain some
knowledge that will hopefully help me here. I should qualify one
thing I mentioned earlier. I didn't mean to imply that the furnace
was 30 years old because the house is from my initial post. The
furnace was manufactured in 1985 making it right at 19 years old. I
realize this is still very old and probably on its last leg but not
30.

A previous poster asked what part of LA I am from. I live in New
Orleans.

The advice about the BBB was very good. I had not even considered
that.

Ultimately, I do know I need more information. It is just hard to
tell in the yellow pages who is good and who isn't. I'll ask around
and see if I can find a contractor that seems reliable. This is one
thing I don't really want to mess around with. If I have to pay a
slightly higher price then so be it. I just want the job done right
since heating and ac are obviously so important to any house.

Thanks again to everyone and if you have any other input please let me
know. It is appreciated.

"ishtarbgl" wrote in message
m...
Thank you so much for all the advice. I am starting to gain some
knowledge that will hopefully help me here. I should qualify one
thing I mentioned earlier. I didn't mean to imply that the furnace
was 30 years old because the house is from my initial post. The
furnace was manufactured in 1985 making it right at 19 years old. I
realize this is still very old and probably on its last leg but not
30.

A previous poster asked what part of LA I am from. I live in New
Orleans.

The advice about the BBB was very good. I had not even considered
that.

Ultimately, I do know I need more information. It is just hard to
tell in the yellow pages who is good and who isn't. I'll ask around
and see if I can find a contractor that seems reliable. This is one
thing I don't really want to mess around with. If I have to pay a
slightly higher price then so be it. I just want the job done right
since heating and ac are obviously so important to any house.

Thanks again to everyone and if you have any other input please let me
know. It is appreciated.

This is Turtle.

Well Here is some more on this.

You say your living New Orleans, La. and need a good hvac repairman to come
look at your furnace.

1) If you do have the money to buy a new furnace, i would not argue at all
if you decided to get a new one. If you buy the Rheem brand i know the
Supplier who will sell the equipment to the contractor that is giving the
bid for a new one. I don't like what he told you at all. He registed a 9 on
my bull****ter Meter and i personally would run his ass off if i did not
kick his ass first. People like that don't need to be selling Rheem
equipment at all. They need to be selling cars or run a Bar on Canal street.
I would like you to send me his company name and his personal name and i
will call his supplier and have them give him a talking to. He will not know
any names but he will be onced over real good. I want to know his name.

1A) I can do it or you can do it and that is call Acme Refrigeration of
New Orleans , at 745 Galvez St., New Orleans , La. , 70119 , Near the New
Orleans Area , 504-821-2711 and ask to get the refrigeration counter when
the secratary answers the phone. Then tell him your a customer looking for a
good straight shooting hvac repairman or company to work on my hvac system.
You can add this to it too, Who would you call to repair your hvac system if
you had trouble out of the service people that buys from you ? These guys
are pretty straight about what they say and will just tell you who is the
crook and who is the straight shooters. Get you 2 names or so and follow up
on them for looking at your system. If the guys name comes up who is working
on your system now just pass his name up and go to the next one. I can do
this just as good as you can.

2) About repairing the furnace and not buying a new system. Go back up to
1A) and read. Now what ithink here. i would get a good hvac repairman to
repair it / correct the gas pressure problem and just run the system. then
at your leasure you can take bids and start the process of getting a new
system when you want to. If you want to discuss system type , seer ratings,
or what ever, e-mail me and we will talk. And no I don't work in the New
Orleans area. Hey, My brother is in new orleans this week end on a sight
seeing time till Monday evening. If you like i can call him on his cell
phone and you go by and pick him up and get him to tell you what is wrong
with it. Just a thought.

3) About the CO detector in your home. If you say you have yellow flame in
your furnace and gas stove. I would invest in a CO detector to put in your
home till this matter is solved.

4) E-mail me and I want to hear more about this problem for it has got my
interest up here.

TURTLE

Use the e-mail address for this newsgroup to e-mail me with.

"EL" wrote in message
news
Turtle,

Do you have a spell checker? Do you know how to use it?

Since you don't know how to spell I'd suggest that you figure out how to
use the spell checker.

B

Don't see you giving the *Quality & Quantity* of info like Turtle does.

Sorry, you can't be more like him.

But, that's no reason to dis (sp?) him.

--
kjpro
_-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-_

( kjpro @ starband . net ) remove spaces to e-mail

Want it done yesterday? Or done right today, to save money tomorrow!!

_________________________ __

"oldal4865" wrote in message
...
See the "evidence" of a cracked heat exchanger. . .the yellow flame.

We had the cops put out a newspaper bulletin when birds like that came
through our town.

Regards
Old Al

What Bubba is saying is, that a cracked HE is NOT a scam.

But, one telling a client that one is when it's not is a scam.

Ever seen a flame pull up or blow towards you when the main blower comes
on??
(think that has something to do with the HE?)

--
kjpro
_-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-_

( kjpro @ starband . net ) remove spaces to e-mail

Want it done yesterday? Or done right today, to save money tomorrow!!

_________________________ __

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:27:32 GMT, "kjpro" ( kjpro @ starband . com )
see-my-sig-for-e-mail wrote:

"oldal4865" wrote in message
...
See the "evidence" of a cracked heat exchanger. . .the yellow flame.

We had the cops put out a newspaper bulletin when birds like that came
through our town.

Regards
Old Al

What Bubba is saying is, that a cracked HE is NOT a scam.

But, one telling a client that one is when it's not is a scam.

Ever seen a flame pull up or blow towards you when the main blower comes
on??
(think that has something to do with the HE?)

No use kjpro. Old Al is "Bent" on the scam and the cop thing. He'll
never get it right. Something about seeing the Forest for the Trees
kind of thing.
Bubba

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
...
Dude...thats just Turtle......but also keep in mind that he has probably
forgotten more than most of the rest of us know.


============================
I agree..

When I see any thread involving air conditioning or heating with a reply
from TURTLE... I read his responce..
..
I also read every response made my CHVAC

Both these guys know their Sh$$ ...

Bob Griffiths

"oldal4865" wrote in message
...

Bubba wrote in message ...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 15:25:42 -0500, "oldal4865"
wrote:


ishtarbgl wrote in message
...

This is a chance to demonstrate how public-spirited you are.

1. Call cops
2. Cooperate with cops in setting up sting operation for these birds
who
are trying to adjust your disposable income for the coming year or two.

Yellow flame means insufficient air. Usually can be adjusted in the
twinkle on an eye. . .or the flick of a wrist just before you got there
(i.e. from blue to yellow for the sales pitch)

Cracked heat exchangers are as old a furnace scam as there is.
However,
they usually pull it on older widows. Going after expectant parents is
a
stroke of genius.

Regards
Old Al

Old Al,
Your advice was ok up until the last paragraph. A cracked heat
exchanger is NOT AN OLD SCAM, you fool. Anything can be a scam but a
real crack in a heat exchanger is not something to take lightly. Was
that furnace really cracked? I have NO unearthly idea. A second
opinion is in order. Dont make everyone think a crack is a scam. Its
Not.
Bubba

See the "evidence" of a cracked heat exchanger. . .the yellow flame.

We had the cops put out a newspaper bulletin when birds like that came
through our town.

Regards
Old Al

This is Turtle.

Old AL , i'm behind you 110% on locking up any crack headed hvac service
company tring to scam customers by telling the customer that they have a
cracked heat exchanger when they don't. Cracked Heat exchangers are a real
problem to be dealt with real soon and not to run them like that. I only see
about 2 or 3 a year for we just don't use very much heat on furnaces to get
the use out of them. the cooling system usely wears out and you just change
the heat exchanger out by changing the furnace out with the cooling system.
The point that the others are tring to get over to you is we in the hvac
industry have a problem with the public thinking that if I or a respectiable
hvac service man says they have a cracked heat exchanger. They automaticly
think it is a scam and will not take the advise of a respectiable service
man and they really do have a cracked heat exchanger. I / We in the industry
have to cut the gas off to the furnace and disconnect the gas line from the
furnace and plug it off. Then tell the customer the problem and tell them if
you want to take the responiability for trouble by running the furnace with
a crack in the heat exchanger, Have at it but I will not hook it back up. By
this scam thing going on makes us have to protect ourself from law suite by
disconnecting the gas line and maybe loose a customer but i will still have
reasoniable cost of my Contractor Liability insurance. We get the contractor
Liability insurance maybe $2k a year but get hit by a cracked heat exchanger
& leave it running and some one gets hurt in some way. You will be looking
at about $20k a year for coverage. If you get hit twice , you can't buy
coverage at all and the Lords of London will be your only choice after that.

So Al , don't have a blanket phrase on cracked heat exchangers being a scam
for we catch hell in the industry when people get the ideal that a cracked
heat exchanger is a scam of some kind. I remember one time a customer for 20
years when he had a cracked heat exchanger told me it was a crock of bull
that heat changer cracks was nothing at all. I showed him the hole and could
stick my finger through it and he still wanted to run it. He fixed it
hisself with some liquid steel but had to change it out the next season
because it split too far up to get to it with the liquid steel stuff. I lost
him as a customer for he wanted me to do as he said on safety matters. The
other service company told him when they were installing the new system that
it was that the blower was blowing too hard and caused the hole to form in
the fire chamber and having a hole was not a problem at all. till it would
blow flames out the fire chamber ports. i guess CO in your home would not be
a problem either.

this is what we are tring to point out to you.

TURTLE

I would to thank everyone for the responses. This was a good exercise
for me since I learned quite a bit.

First, I asked a number of my co-workers if they knew anyone they
could trust. One person came up more than once so I called and asked
to see if he could come take a look. He was a little booked up but
got there as soon as he could. He was extremely polite and I
described to him the issues that the other person had. He agreed with
some it but not all of it. He took the furnace apart and cleaned it
and checked for leaks. There were none. He said the issue with the
flame was probably due to some slight rust build up and this was what
was burning, not the actual gas. He said once he cleaned and brushed
some of it away the flames should be more blue. He spent a little
over an hour taking everything apart to make sure it was as it should
be. When he fired it back up I was shocked to see the flames again.
They were almost completely blue. He said my wife and I had nothing
to worry about as far as a health threat was concerned. He went on to
say the installation was not very professional and it could be
replaced if I wanted to go down that road. He showed me where we were
really losing efficieny due to the poor duct work too. I will
probably wait a few months and then change everything out to get ready
for summer.

Anyway, he did all this and gave me all this great information for
$92. I gave him a $30 tip and told him how much I appreciated
everything. The beauty of working with him was that I didn't have to
trust his word on everything. He took the time to show me where there
were issues and were there clearly were not.

Again, thanks to all the help here. If there is one important lesson
I have taken away from this experience it is that the biggest ad in
the yellow pages tells you nothing. The previous company that looked
at our furnace had an exceptional ad in the yellow pages. Then this
guy shows up in a white van with nothing in it (hardly any tools) and
without taking anything apart tells me that my wife and I (and unborn
child) are in real jeopardy. Then of course the salesman shows up in
a matter of an hour after this asking for big money. Then he shows up
the next day with a neatly outlined itemized list of what needs to be
done. Comparatively, the next individual shows up completely prepared
for anything and is able to deduce and desribe the issues and
non-issues. Needless to say I was impressed and this guy doesn't even
advertise in the yellow pages.

Thanks again for all the help I received here. It is appreciated. I
am hoping this spring to go with an American Standard or
Trane...should be interesting

I would to thank everyone for the responses. This was a good exercise
for me since I learned quite a bit.

First, I asked a number of my co-workers if they knew anyone they
could trust. One person came up more than once so I called and asked
to see if he could come take a look. He was a little booked up but
got there as soon as he could. He was extremely polite and I
described to him the issues that the other person had. He agreed with
some it but not all of it. He took the furnace apart and cleaned it
and checked for leaks. There were none. He said the issue with the
flame was probably due to some slight rust build up and this was what
was burning, not the actual gas. He said once he cleaned and brushed
some of it away the flames should be more blue. He spent a little
over an hour taking everything apart to make sure it was as it should
be. When he fired it back up I was shocked to see the flames again.
They were almost completely blue. He said my wife and I had nothing
to worry about as far as a health threat was concerned. He went on to
say the installation was not very professional and it could be
replaced if I wanted to go down that road. He showed me where we were
really losing efficieny due to the poor duct work too. I will
probably wait a few months and then change everything out to get ready
for summer.

Anyway, he did all this and gave me all this great information for
$92. I gave him a $30 tip and told him how much I appreciated
everything. The beauty of working with him was that I didn't have to
trust his word on everything. He took the time to show me where there
were issues and were there clearly were not.

Again, thanks to all the help here. If there is one important lesson
I have taken away from this experience it is that the biggest ad in
the yellow pages tells you nothing. The previous company that looked
at our furnace had an exceptional ad in the yellow pages. Then this
guy shows up in a white van with nothing in it (hardly any tools) and
without taking anything apart tells me that my wife and I (and unborn
child) are in real jeopardy. Then of course the salesman shows up in
a matter of an hour after this asking for big money. Then he shows up
the next day with a neatly outlined itemized list of what needs to be
done. Comparatively, the next individual shows up completely prepared
for anything and is able to deduce and desribe the issues and
non-issues. Needless to say I was impressed and this guy doesn't even
advertise in the yellow pages.

Thanks again for all the help I received here. It is appreciated. I
am hoping this spring to go with an American Standard or
Trane...should be interesting

On 26 Nov 2003 08:23:59 -0800, (ishtarbgl) wrote:

be. When he fired it back up I was shocked to see the flames again.
They were almost completely blue. He said my wife and I had nothing
to worry about as far as a health threat was concerned. He went on to

done. Comparatively, the next individual shows up completely prepared
for anything and is able to deduce and desribe the issues and
non-issues. Needless to say I was impressed and this guy doesn't even
advertise in the yellow pages.

Maybe he doesn't need to :-).

How many customers is he going to pick up next year from your
recommendation ( not counting yourself ) ? :-)



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me

New HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free demo now available online !!!!
--
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net

On 26 Nov 2003 08:23:59 -0800, (ishtarbgl) wrote:

be. When he fired it back up I was shocked to see the flames again.
They were almost completely blue. He said my wife and I had nothing
to worry about as far as a health threat was concerned. He went on to

done. Comparatively, the next individual shows up completely prepared
for anything and is able to deduce and desribe the issues and
non-issues. Needless to say I was impressed and this guy doesn't even
advertise in the yellow pages.

Maybe he doesn't need to :-).

How many customers is he going to pick up next year from your
recommendation ( not counting yourself ) ? :-)



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me

New HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free demo now available online !!!!
--
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net

In article ,
(ishtarbgl) wrote:

I would to thank everyone for the responses. This was a good exercise
for me since I learned quite a bit.

First, I asked a number of my co-workers if they knew anyone they
could trust. One person came up more than once so I called and asked
to see if he could come take a look. He was a little booked up but
got there as soon as he could. He was extremely polite and I
described to him the issues that the other person had. He agreed with
some it but not all of it. He took the furnace apart and cleaned it
and checked for leaks. There were none. He said the issue with the
flame was probably due to some slight rust build up and this was what
was burning, not the actual gas. He said once he cleaned and brushed
some of it away the flames should be more blue. He spent a little
over an hour taking everything apart to make sure it was as it should
be. When he fired it back up I was shocked to see the flames again.
They were almost completely blue. He said my wife and I had nothing
to worry about as far as a health threat was concerned. He went on to
say the installation was not very professional and it could be
replaced if I wanted to go down that road. He showed me where we were
really losing efficieny due to the poor duct work too. I will
probably wait a few months and then change everything out to get ready
for summer.

Anyway, he did all this and gave me all this great information for
$92. I gave him a $30 tip and told him how much I appreciated
everything. The beauty of working with him was that I didn't have to
trust his word on everything. He took the time to show me where there
were issues and were there clearly were not.

Again, thanks to all the help here. If there is one important lesson
I have taken away from this experience it is that the biggest ad in
the yellow pages tells you nothing. The previous company that looked
at our furnace had an exceptional ad in the yellow pages. Then this
guy shows up in a white van with nothing in it (hardly any tools) and
without taking anything apart tells me that my wife and I (and unborn
child) are in real jeopardy. Then of course the salesman shows up in
a matter of an hour after this asking for big money. Then he shows up
the next day with a neatly outlined itemized list of what needs to be
done. Comparatively, the next individual shows up completely prepared
for anything and is able to deduce and desribe the issues and
non-issues. Needless to say I was impressed and this guy doesn't even
advertise in the yellow pages.

Thanks again for all the help I received here. It is appreciated. I
am hoping this spring to go with an American Standard or
Trane...should be interesting

Good enough to post again.
Professionals let their customers advertise.

--
A professional is someone who does a good job even when they don't feel like it.
-Bill

In article ,
(ishtarbgl) wrote:

I would to thank everyone for the responses. This was a good exercise
for me since I learned quite a bit.

First, I asked a number of my co-workers if they knew anyone they
could trust. One person came up more than once so I called and asked
to see if he could come take a look. He was a little booked up but
got there as soon as he could. He was extremely polite and I
described to him the issues that the other person had. He agreed with
some it but not all of it. He took the furnace apart and cleaned it
and checked for leaks. There were none. He said the issue with the
flame was probably due to some slight rust build up and this was what
was burning, not the actual gas. He said once he cleaned and brushed
some of it away the flames should be more blue. He spent a little
over an hour taking everything apart to make sure it was as it should
be. When he fired it back up I was shocked to see the flames again.
They were almost completely blue. He said my wife and I had nothing
to worry about as far as a health threat was concerned. He went on to
say the installation was not very professional and it could be
replaced if I wanted to go down that road. He showed me where we were
really losing efficieny due to the poor duct work too. I will
probably wait a few months and then change everything out to get ready
for summer.

Anyway, he did all this and gave me all this great information for
$92. I gave him a $30 tip and told him how much I appreciated
everything. The beauty of working with him was that I didn't have to
trust his word on everything. He took the time to show me where there
were issues and were there clearly were not.

Again, thanks to all the help here. If there is one important lesson
I have taken away from this experience it is that the biggest ad in
the yellow pages tells you nothing. The previous company that looked
at our furnace had an exceptional ad in the yellow pages. Then this
guy shows up in a white van with nothing in it (hardly any tools) and
without taking anything apart tells me that my wife and I (and unborn
child) are in real jeopardy. Then of course the salesman shows up in
a matter of an hour after this asking for big money. Then he shows up
the next day with a neatly outlined itemized list of what needs to be
done. Comparatively, the next individual shows up completely prepared
for anything and is able to deduce and desribe the issues and
non-issues. Needless to say I was impressed and this guy doesn't even
advertise in the yellow pages.

Thanks again for all the help I received here. It is appreciated. I
am hoping this spring to go with an American Standard or
Trane...should be interesting

Good enough to post again.
Professionals let their customers advertise.

--
A professional is someone who does a good job even when they don't feel like it.
-Bill

Please do you and your wife a favor and shop contractors. Very
seriously look at this model from Carrier. It is sooooooo nice. My
electric bill was cut in half, my gas bill went down last winter by 15%
and the air in my home is constantly moving which eliminates cold spots
and provides overall comfort.

This is what I own (58CVA or Weathermaker 8000V)
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm

If you have the extra money and it is appropiate for your situation I
would get the
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm
as your gas bill will go down much more.

When comparing AC condensing units I would go with a 12+ seer and buy a
unit that uses R-410a refrigerant. http://www.puron.com/

As far as other brands ... Rheem, Trane, American Standard? None of them
can compete with how QUIET and reliable a Carrier or Bryant variable
speed furnace is. Oh yea don't let the contractors glorify the furnace
and charge you too much. Keep shopping until you get the price that
makes sense. Make sure they breakout the bill, labor and material. You
want to see what they are charging labor for ... ALL HVAC equipment has
the potential for high profit.

There comes a time in the affairs of man when he must take the bull by
the tail and face the situation. -- WCF
http://www.utahhousevalues.com

Please do you and your wife a favor and shop contractors. Very
seriously look at this model from Carrier. It is sooooooo nice. My
electric bill was cut in half, my gas bill went down last winter by 15%
and the air in my home is constantly moving which eliminates cold spots
and provides overall comfort.

This is what I own (58CVA or Weathermaker 8000V)
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm

If you have the extra money and it is appropiate for your situation I
would get the
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm
as your gas bill will go down much more.

When comparing AC condensing units I would go with a 12+ seer and buy a
unit that uses R-410a refrigerant. http://www.puron.com/

As far as other brands ... Rheem, Trane, American Standard? None of them
can compete with how QUIET and reliable a Carrier or Bryant variable
speed furnace is. Oh yea don't let the contractors glorify the furnace
and charge you too much. Keep shopping until you get the price that
makes sense. Make sure they breakout the bill, labor and material. You
want to see what they are charging labor for ... ALL HVAC equipment has
the potential for high profit.

There comes a time in the affairs of man when he must take the bull by
the tail and face the situation. -- WCF
http://www.utahhousevalues.com

wrote in message
...
On 26 Nov 2003 08:23:59 -0800, (ishtarbgl) wrote:

be. When he fired it back up I was shocked to see the flames again.
They were almost completely blue. He said my wife and I had nothing
to worry about as far as a health threat was concerned. He went on to

done. Comparatively, the next individual shows up completely prepared
for anything and is able to deduce and desribe the issues and
non-issues. Needless to say I was impressed and this guy doesn't even
advertise in the yellow pages.

Maybe he doesn't need to :-).

How many customers is he going to pick up next year from your
recommendation ( not counting yourself ) ? :-)



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me


This is Turtle.

In my area the youngsters starting out and big fly by nite use the yellow
pages. There is 6 service and installation companys in my area and 2 have
ads in the yellow pages. 1 is a youngster starting out -- green behind the
ears but he is learning and the other one is a , well he has screwed so many
customers that he has to aim his business at very new customers that he has
not work for before. If your starting out or screw up units too much you
have to use the yellow pages to keep the calls coming.

I stop using the yellow pages when i started going commercial about 10 years
ago and the only difference now is i don't have to tell as many customers
that I can't get to them. Also if you don't have the yellow pages sending
you customers . you don't get all the price shoppers with no ideal of what
quality work is. The yellow pages around here is just used for cost
comparing but when they go to do something they call the hvac conpany or man
that does their work. I use to get a lot of " what will you change out a
condenser fan motor for because the service man who checked it wanted just
too much" . I ask this well tell me what he wants to change it and I will
tell you if it is too much. They would say Oh , No i want you to bid on this
motor change out. I will tell them , I quiet bidding motor change out 30
years ago and if your looking for the lowest price. i'm not the one to call.
Most all these price shoppers have no ideal of what your tring to tell them
for they think your walmarts and just getting a price on lawn mower and
they will come by and pick it up.

TURTLE

wrote in message
...
On 26 Nov 2003 08:23:59 -0800, (ishtarbgl) wrote:

be. When he fired it back up I was shocked to see the flames again.
They were almost completely blue. He said my wife and I had nothing
to worry about as far as a health threat was concerned. He went on to

done. Comparatively, the next individual shows up completely prepared
for anything and is able to deduce and desribe the issues and
non-issues. Needless to say I was impressed and this guy doesn't even
advertise in the yellow pages.

Maybe he doesn't need to :-).

How many customers is he going to pick up next year from your
recommendation ( not counting yourself ) ? :-)



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me


This is Turtle.

In my area the youngsters starting out and big fly by nite use the yellow
pages. There is 6 service and installation companys in my area and 2 have
ads in the yellow pages. 1 is a youngster starting out -- green behind the
ears but he is learning and the other one is a , well he has screwed so many
customers that he has to aim his business at very new customers that he has
not work for before. If your starting out or screw up units too much you
have to use the yellow pages to keep the calls coming.

I stop using the yellow pages when i started going commercial about 10 years
ago and the only difference now is i don't have to tell as many customers
that I can't get to them. Also if you don't have the yellow pages sending
you customers . you don't get all the price shoppers with no ideal of what
quality work is. The yellow pages around here is just used for cost
comparing but when they go to do something they call the hvac conpany or man
that does their work. I use to get a lot of " what will you change out a
condenser fan motor for because the service man who checked it wanted just
too much" . I ask this well tell me what he wants to change it and I will
tell you if it is too much. They would say Oh , No i want you to bid on this
motor change out. I will tell them , I quiet bidding motor change out 30
years ago and if your looking for the lowest price. i'm not the one to call.
Most all these price shoppers have no ideal of what your tring to tell them
for they think your walmarts and just getting a price on lawn mower and
they will come by and pick it up.

TURTLE

On 27 Nov 2003 00:36:27 GMT, Darrell wrote:

Please do you and your wife a favor and shop contractors. Very
seriously look at this model from Carrier. It is sooooooo nice. My
electric bill was cut in half, my gas bill went down last winter by 15%
and the air in my home is constantly moving which eliminates cold spots
and provides overall comfort.

This is what I own (58CVA or Weathermaker 8000V)
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm

If you have the extra money and it is appropiate for your situation I
would get the
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm
as your gas bill will go down much more

Darrell,
You have no clue what you are talking about. You do know that you
posted the same exact link above, Twice?
The second furnace you are speaking of will NOT make your bill go down
MUCH more. Your Carrier salesman has done quite a number on you.

When comparing AC condensing units I would go with a 12+ seer and buy a
unit that uses R-410a refrigerant. http://www.puron.com/

Once again, you have been "snuckered" by Carrier. Given the choice, Id
take the R-22 for now.

As far as other brands ... Rheem, Trane, American Standard? None of them
can compete with how QUIET and reliable a Carrier or Bryant variable
speed furnace is.

Wrong, once again, bucko. All 3 of the brands you mentioned above are
just as quiet and more than your "wonderful" Carrier. By the way, You
DO know that Bryant and Carrier are one in the same? No, I didnt think
you did.

Oh yea don't let the contractors glorify the furnace
and charge you too much. Keep shopping until you get the price that
makes sense. Make sure they breakout the bill, labor and material. You
want to see what they are charging labor for ... ALL HVAC equipment has
the potential for high profit.

Yeah right. You are going to change the contractors price? Keep
shopping for the cheapest contractor you can find and you will get
EXACTLY what you pay for...Period! Here's another clue. The price I
give you is what you will pay. I dont break it down on an install. You
dont like it? Go find yourself a cheap hack. It costs what it costs
buddie boy.
Bubba

There comes a time in the affairs of man when he must take the bull by
the tail and face the situation. -- WCF
http://www.utahhousevalues.com

On 27 Nov 2003 00:36:27 GMT, Darrell wrote:

Please do you and your wife a favor and shop contractors. Very
seriously look at this model from Carrier. It is sooooooo nice. My
electric bill was cut in half, my gas bill went down last winter by 15%
and the air in my home is constantly moving which eliminates cold spots
and provides overall comfort.

This is what I own (58CVA or Weathermaker 8000V)
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm

If you have the extra money and it is appropiate for your situation I
would get the
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm
as your gas bill will go down much more

Darrell,
You have no clue what you are talking about. You do know that you
posted the same exact link above, Twice?
The second furnace you are speaking of will NOT make your bill go down
MUCH more. Your Carrier salesman has done quite a number on you.

When comparing AC condensing units I would go with a 12+ seer and buy a
unit that uses R-410a refrigerant. http://www.puron.com/

Once again, you have been "snuckered" by Carrier. Given the choice, Id
take the R-22 for now.

As far as other brands ... Rheem, Trane, American Standard? None of them
can compete with how QUIET and reliable a Carrier or Bryant variable
speed furnace is.

Wrong, once again, bucko. All 3 of the brands you mentioned above are
just as quiet and more than your "wonderful" Carrier. By the way, You
DO know that Bryant and Carrier are one in the same? No, I didnt think
you did.

Oh yea don't let the contractors glorify the furnace
and charge you too much. Keep shopping until you get the price that
makes sense. Make sure they breakout the bill, labor and material. You
want to see what they are charging labor for ... ALL HVAC equipment has
the potential for high profit.

Yeah right. You are going to change the contractors price? Keep
shopping for the cheapest contractor you can find and you will get
EXACTLY what you pay for...Period! Here's another clue. The price I
give you is what you will pay. I dont break it down on an install. You
dont like it? Go find yourself a cheap hack. It costs what it costs
buddie boy.
Bubba

There comes a time in the affairs of man when he must take the bull by
the tail and face the situation. -- WCF
http://www.utahhousevalues.com

"Darrell" wrote in message
...
Please do you and your wife a favor and shop contractors. Very
seriously look at this model from Carrier. It is sooooooo nice. My
electric bill was cut in half, my gas bill went down last winter by 15%
and the air in my home is constantly moving which eliminates cold spots
and provides overall comfort.

Sucker..thats all I got to say..no..wait..test subject....thats another
thought that comes to mind.


This is what I own (58CVA or Weathermaker 8000V)
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm

If you have the extra money and it is appropiate for your situation I
would get the
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm
as your gas bill will go down much more.

Wow...the same link not one time, but two...


When comparing AC condensing units I would go with a 12+ seer and buy a
unit that uses R-410a refrigerant. http://www.puron.com/


Sure....and dont bother to tell everyone that R22 is gonna be around for a
long time yet, and Puron has already been proven to perhaps NOT be the next
refrigerant.. R500 comes to mind...


As far as other brands ... Rheem, Trane, American Standard? None of them
can compete with how QUIET and reliable a Carrier or Bryant variable
speed furnace is.

Nope...not unless they are all installed correctly, and I can put in a
normal York 80% that you wont ever know comes on....hows that?

Oh yea don't let the contractors glorify the furnace
and charge you too much. Keep shopping until you get the price that
makes sense. Make sure they breakout the bill, labor and material. You
want to see what they are charging labor for ... ALL HVAC equipment has
the potential for high profit.

So..you dont wanna pay retail?
Ok..hows this:

Furnace, 100K, 95%AFUE, $1
16 SEER 48,000BTU AC, R22, $1
Lineset, FREE
Knowledge to properly remove, size, duct calculate, install, and service:
$7600
Total
7602$$



There comes a time in the affairs of man when he must take the bull by
the tail and face the situation. -- WCF
http://www.utahhousevalues.com

"Darrell" wrote in message
...
Please do you and your wife a favor and shop contractors. Very
seriously look at this model from Carrier. It is sooooooo nice. My
electric bill was cut in half, my gas bill went down last winter by 15%
and the air in my home is constantly moving which eliminates cold spots
and provides overall comfort.

Sucker..thats all I got to say..no..wait..test subject....thats another
thought that comes to mind.


This is what I own (58CVA or Weathermaker 8000V)
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm

If you have the extra money and it is appropiate for your situation I
would get the
http://www.residential.carrier.com/p...et_gasfurn.htm
as your gas bill will go down much more.

Wow...the same link not one time, but two...


When comparing AC condensing units I would go with a 12+ seer and buy a
unit that uses R-410a refrigerant. http://www.puron.com/


Sure....and dont bother to tell everyone that R22 is gonna be around for a
long time yet, and Puron has already been proven to perhaps NOT be the next
refrigerant.. R500 comes to mind...


As far as other brands ... Rheem, Trane, American Standard? None of them
can compete with how QUIET and reliable a Carrier or Bryant variable
speed furnace is.

Nope...not unless they are all installed correctly, and I can put in a
normal York 80% that you wont ever know comes on....hows that?

Oh yea don't let the contractors glorify the furnace
and charge you too much. Keep shopping until you get the price that
makes sense. Make sure they breakout the bill, labor and material. You
want to see what they are charging labor for ... ALL HVAC equipment has
the potential for high profit.

So..you dont wanna pay retail?
Ok..hows this:

Furnace, 100K, 95%AFUE, $1
16 SEER 48,000BTU AC, R22, $1
Lineset, FREE
Knowledge to properly remove, size, duct calculate, install, and service:
$7600
Total
7602$$



There comes a time in the affairs of man when he must take the bull by
the tail and face the situation. -- WCF
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