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Arnie Goetchius
 
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Have a 1500 sqft home (built 1985) with 100 amp service and a load of about 47
amps. We would like to add an electric wall oven (3600 va) which would bring the
load up to 62 amps. The problem is that the breaker box is full. (There are only
16 breaker slots). I know there are side-by-side 15A breakers which take up only
half the space. I would like to put 4 of the existing circuits on the these
side-by-side breakers so I could free up two slots. Once I do that, I can put
in a 240 volt 20 Amp double breaker for the oven.

Question 1: I have seen the side-by-side breakers for Square D but this box is a
Sylvania-Challenger. Are there side-by-side breakers for the Challenger?

Question 2: If not, how much might I expect to pay (very roughly) to have an
electrician (Central NJ) swap out the Challenger for a 20 slot Square D
including the permit, temporary disconnect of power and inspection?

  #2   Report Post  
Steve
 
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I think most all panel mfg provide the side-by-side space saving breakers.
You may even find a generic that will fit your panel.. You need to go to an
electrical supplier that handles all the breakers.

You might want to consider upgrading to a 200 amp service anyway.. That is
pretty much the standard for a residence today, even if you don't use elect
stove, etc.

What it will cost to upgrade depends on the going rate in your area. The
panel will be just a small cost in this change over.. I purchased a medium
size sub-panel that holds 16 breakers for about $80.

A sub panel isn't going to help you since your really need to bring in more
amps (200 amp).

What ever, it will add future value and piece of mind with any other
additional system expansion.

Steve



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Wade Lippman
 
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My 1983 house has a Sylvania box, and it takes the common Murray/Siemens
breakers. Two 15/15s will set you back $17. I don't know if it is
Challenger, but I expect all early 80s Sylvanias used the same breakers.
For about the same price you can get a quad breaker that lets you put two
240v circuits in 2 slots. That will probably be easier because you don't
have to move anything, but you will probably have to go to an electrical
supply house to buy it.
You can buy a whole lot of breakers for the cost of a new installed panel.
I take it you don't have central A/C or an electric dryer if your load is
only 62a.

"Arnie Goetchius" wrote in message
...
Have a 1500 sqft home (built 1985) with 100 amp service and a load of

about 47
amps. We would like to add an electric wall oven (3600 va) which would

bring the
load up to 62 amps. The problem is that the breaker box is full. (There

are only
16 breaker slots). I know there are side-by-side 15A breakers which take

up only
half the space. I would like to put 4 of the existing circuits on the

these
side-by-side breakers so I could free up two slots. Once I do that, I can

put
in a 240 volt 20 Amp double breaker for the oven.

Question 1: I have seen the side-by-side breakers for Square D but this

box is a
Sylvania-Challenger. Are there side-by-side breakers for the Challenger?

Question 2: If not, how much might I expect to pay (very roughly) to have

an
electrician (Central NJ) swap out the Challenger for a 20 slot Square D
including the permit, temporary disconnect of power and inspection?



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Joseph Meehan
 
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Consider upgrading to 200 amps. Your electric use has increased since
1985 and that 100 amps is marginal.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"Arnie Goetchius" wrote in message
...
Have a 1500 sqft home (built 1985) with 100 amp service and a load of

about 47
amps. We would like to add an electric wall oven (3600 va) which would

bring the
load up to 62 amps. The problem is that the breaker box is full. (There

are only
16 breaker slots). I know there are side-by-side 15A breakers which take

up only
half the space. I would like to put 4 of the existing circuits on the

these
side-by-side breakers so I could free up two slots. Once I do that, I can

put
in a 240 volt 20 Amp double breaker for the oven.

Question 1: I have seen the side-by-side breakers for Square D but this

box is a
Sylvania-Challenger. Are there side-by-side breakers for the Challenger?

Question 2: If not, how much might I expect to pay (very roughly) to have

an
electrician (Central NJ) swap out the Challenger for a 20 slot Square D
including the permit, temporary disconnect of power and inspection?



  #5   Report Post  
Arnie Goetchius
 
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Thanks for the tips on the breakers. That appears to be a possibility. However,
looks like everone is suggesting an upgrade to 200 amps so will also consider
that. I do have A/C as shown in the following load calculation. Did I miss anything?

Unit Watts


A/C - one 18,000 one 24000 3860
Dish Washer 1500
Wall Oven 3600
Computers 500
25% of Largest Motor 300
Lighting Demand
1500 Sq ft X 3 Va 4500
Small Appl 2 X 1500 3000
Laundry 1 X 1500 1500
1st 3000 @ 100% 3000
Remaining 6000 @ 35% 2100
Total Lighting Demand 5100

Total Watts 14860

Total Amps 61.9

Wade Lippman wrote:

My 1983 house has a Sylvania box, and it takes the common Murray/Siemens
breakers. Two 15/15s will set you back $17. I don't know if it is
Challenger, but I expect all early 80s Sylvanias used the same breakers.
For about the same price you can get a quad breaker that lets you put two
240v circuits in 2 slots. That will probably be easier because you don't
have to move anything, but you will probably have to go to an electrical
supply house to buy it.
You can buy a whole lot of breakers for the cost of a new installed panel.
I take it you don't have central A/C or an electric dryer if your load is
only 62a.

"Arnie Goetchius" wrote in message
...

Have a 1500 sqft home (built 1985) with 100 amp service and a load of


about 47

amps. We would like to add an electric wall oven (3600 va) which would


bring the

load up to 62 amps. The problem is that the breaker box is full. (There


are only

16 breaker slots). I know there are side-by-side 15A breakers which take


up only

half the space. I would like to put 4 of the existing circuits on the


these

side-by-side breakers so I could free up two slots. Once I do that, I can


put

in a 240 volt 20 Amp double breaker for the oven.

Question 1: I have seen the side-by-side breakers for Square D but this


box is a

Sylvania-Challenger. Are there side-by-side breakers for the Challenger?

Question 2: If not, how much might I expect to pay (very roughly) to have


an

electrician (Central NJ) swap out the Challenger for a 20 slot Square D
including the permit, temporary disconnect of power and inspection?







  #6   Report Post  
Wade Lippman
 
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There are two reasons you might need a larger service.

You might simply not have enough amps available. Your house is small, and
you have no big appliances, so that should not be a problem. Even if it is,
you can always do it later just as well when you start popping the main
breaker.

The other reason is that you might have excessive voltage drop to your panel
with the stove going. That might happen if you are a distance from the
transformer and they used smallish cables. You can test for that by turning
everything in the house on and testing voltage on both legs at the panel, or
at outlets on lightly used circuits. If you are reading more than a 4 volt
drop from when nothing in the house it running, you might have a problem.
Be sure to test both legs. If one is low and the other is okay, you might
be able to rearrange the loads (after installing the stove) to make both
legs okay.

I expect the fine folks here will come up with additional reason why you
need a new service. I can't wait to see what they are.


  #7   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
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In article , "Wade Lippman" wrote:
My 1983 house has a Sylvania box, and it takes the common Murray/Siemens
breakers. Two 15/15s will set you back $17. I don't know if it is
Challenger, but I expect all early 80s Sylvanias used the same breakers.
For about the same price you can get a quad breaker that lets you put two
240v circuits in 2 slots. That will probably be easier because you don't
have to move anything, but you will probably have to go to an electrical
supply house to buy it.


I've seen quad 15, 20, and 30A breakers at Lowes, Home Depot, and Ace
Hardware. Ace also carries the combo quad breakers such as 15-20 and 20-30.

--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
  #8   Report Post  
Wade Lippman
 
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message
y.com...
In article , "Wade Lippman"

wrote:
My 1983 house has a Sylvania box, and it takes the common Murray/Siemens
breakers. Two 15/15s will set you back $17. I don't know if it is
Challenger, but I expect all early 80s Sylvanias used the same breakers.
For about the same price you can get a quad breaker that lets you put two
240v circuits in 2 slots. That will probably be easier because you don't
have to move anything, but you will probably have to go to an electrical
supply house to buy it.


I've seen quad 15, 20, and 30A breakers at Lowes, Home Depot, and Ace
Hardware. Ace also carries the combo quad breakers such as 15-20 and

20-30.

Lowes and HD have 15/3030/15 and 20/3030/20, where the center is double
pole, and the ends are single. I happen to know because just last week I
needed a quad with a double pole 20 and had to go to a supply house.
Perhaps Ace can order it, but most Aces are too small to carry much of
anything. Since he needs a double 20...


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Doug Miller
 
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In article , "Wade Lippman" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
gy.com...
In article , "Wade Lippman"

wrote:
My 1983 house has a Sylvania box, and it takes the common Murray/Siemens
breakers. Two 15/15s will set you back $17. I don't know if it is
Challenger, but I expect all early 80s Sylvanias used the same breakers.
For about the same price you can get a quad breaker that lets you put two
240v circuits in 2 slots. That will probably be easier because you don't
have to move anything, but you will probably have to go to an electrical
supply house to buy it.


I've seen quad 15, 20, and 30A breakers at Lowes, Home Depot, and Ace
Hardware. Ace also carries the combo quad breakers such as 15-20 and

20-30.

Lowes and HD have 15/3030/15 and 20/3030/20, where the center is double
pole, and the ends are single. I happen to know because just last week I
needed a quad with a double pole 20 and had to go to a supply house.
Perhaps Ace can order it, but most Aces are too small to carry much of
anything. Since he needs a double 20...

You'd be surprised what Ace has on the shelf. Especially in electrical.
There, and on the fasteners aisle, they often have a lot of things that the
big home centers don't. FWIW, after I went to Lowe's looking for a 20-30 quad
double-pole -- only to be told by the guy in their electrical department that
such things don't exist (!) -- I found them on the shelf at Ace, where they
are a regularly-stocked item, along with quad 15-20 and 15-30 double-pole
breakers.

--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
  #10   Report Post  
Mark or Sue
 
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"Generic Male Homosapien" wrote in message
...
Why not just add another breaker box next to that one. One that will
hold a dual breaker for your 220. Of course you will have to tap off
the main to get the power to that box, and unless you know what you
are doing, you might want to hire an electrician for at least that
part of the job.


I think this is the best answer. Challenger breakers are no longer made.
They may have ceased before the twin breakers were even available. You can
buy listed "classified replacements" from Cutler-Hammer (their CL line I
think). To do this legally, you need to use twin breakers that are listed
for your panel. I don't think you'll find any, but there are many that will
fit (Siemens, GE, CH-BR). But just because they fit doesn't mean they won't
catch on fire.

Put in another 8 or 16 slot panel next to the one you have and feed it with
6-3 on a 60A breaker. You'll have to move two breakers from the existing
panel to this sub to free up space for the 60A double pole.

Good job on the load calculation, looks like you did it right. You do not
need a larger service at this time, but a hot tub will put you over.

--
Mark
Kent, WA





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Arnie Goetchius
 
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Mark or Sue wrote:

"Generic Male Homosapien" wrote in message
...

Why not just add another breaker box next to that one. One that will
hold a dual breaker for your 220. Of course you will have to tap off
the main to get the power to that box, and unless you know what you
are doing, you might want to hire an electrician for at least that
part of the job.



I think this is the best answer. Challenger breakers are no longer made.
They may have ceased before the twin breakers were even available. You can
buy listed "classified replacements" from Cutler-Hammer (their CL line I
think). To do this legally, you need to use twin breakers that are listed
for your panel. I don't think you'll find any, but there are many that will
fit (Siemens, GE, CH-BR). But just because they fit doesn't mean they won't
catch on fire.


Good point about the unavailabilty of "legal" twin breakers for the Challenger.

Put in another 8 or 16 slot panel next to the one you have and feed it with
6-3 on a 60A breaker. You'll have to move two breakers from the existing
panel to this sub to free up space for the 60A double pole.


Sounds like the best approach and fairly simple to do.

Good job on the load calculation, looks like you did it right. You do not
need a larger service at this time, but a hot tub will put you over.


Thanks. I like to know what I have even if I eventually call in an electrician
to do the job.

--
Mark
Kent, WA




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Wade Lippman
 
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"Mark or Sue" wrote in message
news:6uVtb.216292$HS4.1875470@attbi_s01...
"Generic Male Homosapien" wrote in message
...
Why not just add another breaker box next to that one. One that will
hold a dual breaker for your 220. Of course you will have to tap off
the main to get the power to that box, and unless you know what you
are doing, you might want to hire an electrician for at least that
part of the job.


I think this is the best answer. Challenger breakers are no longer made.
They may have ceased before the twin breakers were even available. You can
buy listed "classified replacements" from Cutler-Hammer (their CL line I
think). To do this legally, you need to use twin breakers that are listed
for your panel. I don't think you'll find any, but there are many that

will
fit (Siemens, GE, CH-BR). But just because they fit doesn't mean they

won't
catch on fire.

Put in another 8 or 16 slot panel next to the one you have and feed it

with
6-3 on a 60A breaker. You'll have to move two breakers from the existing
panel to this sub to free up space for the 60A double pole.


If breakers aren't available, where will he get the 60a breaker?


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Mark or Sue
 
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"Wade Lippman" wrote in message
...
"Mark or Sue" wrote in message
news:6uVtb.216292$HS4.1875470@attbi_s01...
"Generic Male Homosapien" wrote in message
...
Why not just add another breaker box next to that one. One that will
hold a dual breaker for your 220. Of course you will have to tap off
the main to get the power to that box, and unless you know what you
are doing, you might want to hire an electrician for at least that
part of the job.


I think this is the best answer. Challenger breakers are no longer made.
They may have ceased before the twin breakers were even available. You

can
buy listed "classified replacements" from Cutler-Hammer (their CL line I
think). To do this legally, you need to use twin breakers that are

listed
for your panel. I don't think you'll find any, but there are many that

will
fit (Siemens, GE, CH-BR). But just because they fit doesn't mean they

won't
catch on fire.

Put in another 8 or 16 slot panel next to the one you have and feed it

with
6-3 on a 60A breaker. You'll have to move two breakers from the existing
panel to this sub to free up space for the 60A double pole.


If breakers aren't available, where will he get the 60a breaker?


Twin/Tandem's arent available, but double pole breakers should be.

--
Mark
Kent, WA



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Wade Lippman
 
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Twin/Tandem's arent available, but double pole breakers should be.


Okay, but one more thing...
If Siemens breakers fit, why would they be dangerous? At worse, they might
arc if they do not fit perfectly, but an arcing breaker in a box shouldn't
start a house fire. And if there is such a problem, wouldn't it be pretty
noticable?
Please explain.
I have a Sylvania box with a bunch of non-Sylvania breakers, and if there is
a problem, I would like to understand it.


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mark Ransley
 
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Ive gotten breakers at ace, all they look at is if they match. I put
them in and all is fine. It doesnt say on my box only use our brand. I
thought you use what fits and thats it.



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Mike O.
 
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Arnie Goetchius wrote in message ...
Have a 1500 sqft home (built 1985) with 100 amp service and a load of about 47
amps. We would like to add an electric wall oven (3600 va) which would bring the
load up to 62 amps. The problem is that the breaker box is full. (There are only
16 breaker slots). I know there are side-by-side 15A breakers which take up only
half the space. I would like to put 4 of the existing circuits on the these
side-by-side breakers so I could free up two slots. Once I do that, I can put
in a 240 volt 20 Amp double breaker for the oven.

Question 1: I have seen the side-by-side breakers for Square D but this box is a
Sylvania-Challenger. Are there side-by-side breakers for the Challenger?

Question 2: If not, how much might I expect to pay (very roughly) to have an
electrician (Central NJ) swap out the Challenger for a 20 slot Square D
including the permit, temporary disconnect of power and inspection?


I can't help you with question #1, but here in Westerville, OH, I
upgraded our old Federal Pacific 100A/12 slot panel to a SquareD
200A/40 slot. The cost of the parts, permit, etc. (plus a few new
tools G) was about $500. A neighbor had theirs replaced by a
electrician, total was about $1,300. Of course, the professional did
it in about 1/3 the time (about 3 hours, including re-connection by
the electric co.)

(Before I get flamed, I am NOT trying to imply that the cost of having
an electrican is a rip off or anything. With an electrican, you're
paying for the training, skill, and peace of mind. In my case, I've
worked on this type of thing and similar items, and did a lot of
research, including talking to the building inspector. The local code
allows the homeowner to do the work, even if they're not a licensed
electrican.)

Mike O.
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Houseslave
 
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Another option is to add a propane stove and forget about adding an electric
stove. I did this because my house only had a 100 amp service and I didn't
want the extra load. Many people like cooking with gas better then electric
too. If you want to go with the electric stove then I would buy the twin
breakers to free up the slots and see how it works. You can always upgrade
to 200 amps down the road. You're looking at some bucks for a new service
which might not be needed. It all depends on how your circuits are laid out
and how you use your appliances, etc. I never blow fuses so I'm not looking
to upgrade.


  #18   Report Post  
Arnie Goetchius
 
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Mike O. wrote:
Arnie Goetchius wrote in message ...

Have a 1500 sqft home (built 1985) with 100 amp service and a load of about 47
amps. We would like to add an electric wall oven (3600 va) which would bring the
load up to 62 amps. The problem is that the breaker box is full. (There are only
16 breaker slots). I know there are side-by-side 15A breakers which take up only
half the space. I would like to put 4 of the existing circuits on the these
side-by-side breakers so I could free up two slots. Once I do that, I can put
in a 240 volt 20 Amp double breaker for the oven.

Question 1: I have seen the side-by-side breakers for Square D but this box is a
Sylvania-Challenger. Are there side-by-side breakers for the Challenger?

Question 2: If not, how much might I expect to pay (very roughly) to have an
electrician (Central NJ) swap out the Challenger for a 20 slot Square D
including the permit, temporary disconnect of power and inspection?



I can't help you with question #1, but here in Westerville, OH, I
upgraded our old Federal Pacific 100A/12 slot panel to a SquareD
200A/40 slot. The cost of the parts, permit, etc. (plus a few new
tools G) was about $500. A neighbor had theirs replaced by a
electrician, total was about $1,300. Of course, the professional did
it in about 1/3 the time (about 3 hours, including re-connection by
the electric co.)

(Before I get flamed, I am NOT trying to imply that the cost of having
an electrican is a rip off or anything. With an electrican, you're
paying for the training, skill, and peace of mind. In my case, I've
worked on this type of thing and similar items, and did a lot of
research, including talking to the building inspector. The local code
allows the homeowner to do the work, even if they're not a licensed
electrican.)

Mike O.


Thanks for the response on the cost. I guess I could budget for $1500 and then
see what kind of response I get from some local electricians.

  #19   Report Post  
I-zheet M'drurz
 
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On 17 Nov 2003, Arnie Goetchius wrote:

You'll get a laugh out of this. This is a kitchen re-model. There was
a natural gas range in place but it stuck out 2 inches from the rest
of the cabinets. So the lady of the house went to a Kitchen Design
place and they suggested an under counter electric oven which would be
flush with the cabinets and allows for a gas cook top on top of the
oven. If there was an under-the-counter gas oven that would allow a
gas cooktop on the top that would be ideal but there isn't any that I
could find.


So the bottom line is that to get rid of the 2 inches sticking out
into the kitchen, it may cost $1500 for an electrician.


There's a joke in there somewhere about how guys always -think-
they could stand another 2", but I'm not gonna go there. g In
the immortal words of ol' slick Clinton: "Ah feel your pain."

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line
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Arnie Goetchius
 
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I-zheet M'drurz wrote:

On 17 Nov 2003, Arnie Goetchius wrote:


You'll get a laugh out of this. This is a kitchen re-model. There was
a natural gas range in place but it stuck out 2 inches from the rest
of the cabinets. So the lady of the house went to a Kitchen Design
place and they suggested an under counter electric oven which would be
flush with the cabinets and allows for a gas cook top on top of the
oven. If there was an under-the-counter gas oven that would allow a
gas cooktop on the top that would be ideal but there isn't any that I
could find.




So the bottom line is that to get rid of the 2 inches sticking out
into the kitchen, it may cost $1500 for an electrician.



There's a joke in there somewhere about how guys always -think-
they could stand another 2", but I'm not gonna go there. g In
the immortal words of ol' slick Clinton: "Ah feel your pain."


Oh my.. The tears ran down my leg!! Thanks for your response.



  #21   Report Post  
Mark or Sue
 
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"Wade Lippman" wrote in message
...
Twin/Tandem's arent available, but double pole breakers should be.


Okay, but one more thing...
If Siemens breakers fit, why would they be dangerous? At worse, they

might
arc if they do not fit perfectly, but an arcing breaker in a box shouldn't
start a house fire. And if there is such a problem, wouldn't it be pretty
noticable?
Please explain.
I have a Sylvania box with a bunch of non-Sylvania breakers, and if there

is
a problem, I would like to understand it.


Go to Home Depot and grab one each of all these "interchangeable" breakers
.....a Square D Homeline, a GE, a Siemens, and a CH BR. Now look at how they
grab the bus. Each will have a different shape and thickness of bars that
contact the bus. Are you sure your panel bus bars are as thick as the panel
intended to hold that breaker? Are your bus prongs as long as the ones
intended to hold that breaker?

If a connection becomes poor, that breaker and bus stab will get hot.
Eventually, that bus finger could melt. Flames will probably not come out of
your panelboard, but you'll have a mess on your hands and need to replace
the panel.

Finally, I've heard of many people using these breakers, and ones sold as
"Interchangable group" before with no problems. You could say its a
manufacturer's plot to ensure business, and you may be right. There is
little incentive to spend money to get your breakers listed for all the
combinations of panelboards on the market. You're probably fine, but I'd
carefully look at the differences between the Sylvania breakers and the ones
you replaced them with. Also look at the bus and breaker for black spots,
scorch marks, or melting, and feel these breakers when under load to see if
they are hot. I've seen colored disks at Home Depot that you stick on the
breaker. They change color when they get warmer than a breaker should get.
Consider sticking those on your breakers.

--
Mark
Kent, WA



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Zaf
 
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"Mark or Sue" wrote in message news:6uVtb.216292$HS4.1875470@attbi_s01...
Good job on the load calculation, looks like you did it right. You do not
need a larger service at this time, but a hot tub will put you over.


There was actually one piece of information missing. The main will
trip when either pole decides to trip. In addition to the VA rating
as a whole, taking which phase powers each load (i.e. you would'nt
want both ACs and the fridge on the same phase) needs to be looked at.
I also have 100A service and convinced myself I'd be OK, even adding
in transient loads like hair dryers and toasters, although they may
not be in use to long enough to be a factor.
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Arnie Goetchius
 
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Zaf wrote:

"Mark or Sue" wrote in message news:6uVtb.216292$HS4.1875470@attbi_s01...

Good job on the load calculation, looks like you did it right. You do not
need a larger service at this time, but a hot tub will put you over.



There was actually one piece of information missing. The main will
trip when either pole decides to trip. In addition to the VA rating
as a whole, taking which phase powers each load (i.e. you would'nt
want both ACs and the fridge on the same phase) needs to be looked at.
I also have 100A service and convinced myself I'd be OK, even adding
in transient loads like hair dryers and toasters, although they may
not be in use to long enough to be a factor.


Both A/C's are central units running on 240 and the oven would also be on 240
which by definition is on both poles. This represents half the load. The rest of
the load is spread roughly evenly (or at worst 55/45) between the two poles.

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modervador
 
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Arnie Goetchius wrote in message ...

You'll get a laugh out of this. This is a kitchen re-model. There was a natural
gas range in place but it stuck out 2 inches from the rest of the cabinets. So
the lady of the house went to a Kitchen Design place and they suggested an under
counter electric oven which would be flush with the cabinets and allows for a
gas cook top on top of the oven. If there was an under-the-counter gas oven that
would allow a gas cooktop on the top that would be ideal but there isn't any
that I could find.


For the cooktop, gas is preferred by most chefs. I don't think there's
anything particularly more appealing about a gas oven. Convection
ovens are all electric, if memory serves. I've heard that the new
ideal is gas top, electric under.

So the bottom line is that to get rid of the 2 inches sticking out into the
kitchen, it may cost $1500 for an electrician.


2" sticking out into the kitchen can be expensive indeed. I can see it
now: "Does this new oven make my ass look fatter?"

%mod%
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Mark or Sue wrote:

"Wade Lippman" wrote in message
...
Twin/Tandem's arent available, but double pole breakers should be.


Okay, but one more thing...
If Siemens breakers fit, why would they be dangerous? At worse, they

might
arc if they do not fit perfectly, but an arcing breaker in a box shouldn't
start a house fire. And if there is such a problem, wouldn't it be pretty
noticable?
Please explain.
I have a Sylvania box with a bunch of non-Sylvania breakers, and if there

is
a problem, I would like to understand it.


Go to Home Depot and grab one each of all these "interchangeable" breakers
....a Square D Homeline, a GE, a Siemens, and a CH BR. Now look at how they
grab the bus. Each will have a different shape and thickness of bars that
contact the bus. Are you sure your panel bus bars are as thick as the panel
intended to hold that breaker? Are your bus prongs as long as the ones
intended to hold that breaker?

If a connection becomes poor, that breaker and bus stab will get hot.
Eventually, that bus finger could melt. Flames will probably not come out of
your panelboard, but you'll have a mess on your hands and need to replace
the panel.

Finally, I've heard of many people using these breakers, and ones sold as
"Interchangable group" before with no problems. You could say its a
manufacturer's plot to ensure business, and you may be right. There is
little incentive to spend money to get your breakers listed for all the
combinations of panelboards on the market. You're probably fine, but I'd
carefully look at the differences between the Sylvania breakers and the ones
you replaced them with. Also look at the bus and breaker for black spots,
scorch marks, or melting, and feel these breakers when under load to see if
they are hot. I've seen colored disks at Home Depot that you stick on the
breaker. They change color when they get warmer than a breaker should get.
Consider sticking those on your breakers.

--
Mark
Kent, WA


Yup. makes sense.
We have one 'slot' in our main panel that can't now be used
because some years back, even with a 'proper' breaker of same
manufacture as the panel (Square D), the breaker became faulty,
over heated, contacts lost temper, became loose contact with the
buss and corroded it.
No matter we are OK without that one double pole position and at
a pinch could use a 'single' on the other leg/pole in it.
Terry.


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Zaf wrote:

"Mark or Sue" wrote in message news:6uVtb.216292$HS4.1875470@attbi_s01...
Good job on the load calculation, looks like you did it right. You do not
need a larger service at this time, but a hot tub will put you over.


There was actually one piece of information missing. The main will
trip when either pole decides to trip. In addition to the VA rating
as a whole, taking which (phase)** powers each load (i.e. you would'nt
want both ACs and the fridge on the same phase) needs to be looked at.
I also have 100A service and convinced myself I'd be OK, even adding
in transient loads like hair dryers and toasters, although they may
not be in use to long enough to be a factor.



Minor point but; ** viz. balancing the loads on the two 'sides'
of the 115/230 volt supply?
"The other 'leg' of the same 230 volt (115-0-115) phase".
I dont think the the two 115 volt 'hots' are normally different
'phases'.
If so they would be 120 degress apart and voltage between them
would not be twice 115 = 230 volts.
200 ampservice common here for past 30 years. But mainly cos of
electric heating.
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"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 17 Nov 2003, Arnie Goetchius wrote:

You'll get a laugh out of this. This is a kitchen re-model. There was
a natural gas range in place but it stuck out 2 inches from the rest
of the cabinets. So the lady of the house went to a Kitchen Design
place and they suggested an under counter electric oven which would be
flush with the cabinets and allows for a gas cook top on top of the
oven. If there was an under-the-counter gas oven that would allow a
gas cooktop on the top that would be ideal but there isn't any that I
could find.


So the bottom line is that to get rid of the 2 inches sticking out
into the kitchen, it may cost $1500 for an electrician.


There's a joke in there somewhere about how guys always -think-
they could stand another 2", but I'm not gonna go there. g

Tom Pendergast


Tommy, the only 2" you want is attached to a 4-year old boy.

SICK PERVERTED PEDOPHILE.



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