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#41
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:46:18 -0000, the renowned "Steve Sousa"
wrote: circuits it is illegal to use a GFCI breaker, like a refrigerator, or a freezer. Why? I'd guess they did a study and concluded that more people would die of food poisoning than would be saved from electrocution. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
#42
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
w_tom writes:
$5+ for a GFCI tester? Its nothing more than a switch and maybe a 15K resistor that connects hot (black) wire to safety ground (green) wire. That same tester is what the TEST button does - already inside the GFCI. The TEST button puts the R between Line Black and Load White, or the inverse. This so TEST works on GFI's with no ground. (At least on the ones I've fiddled with..) -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
#43
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:03:14 GMT, "Jeff"
wrote: It would be incpnvenient to wait for the Poco to reset it. The best thing would be a whole house GFCI, as is oftern used in most of the rest of the world. Whole house GFI? Where is this "rest of the world"? GFI'ing a whole house would be stupid. In actuality, they are often set up to protect only recptacle circuits. |
#44
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
"Mark Jones" 127.0.0.1 wrote in message
... In (Michael A. Terrell): Gary Tait wrote: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 02:47:00 -0600, wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:44:40 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Went outside to add another electrical circuit at the BBQ and discovered that all of my nice wire-tagging had faded to non-readable. So I couldn't figure out which common went with which hot. Then it dawned on me to simply trip the GFCIs which releases *both* hots and commons so a simple ohm-meter check would do the trick. NOT! Both GFCIs wouldn't trip when I pressed the test buttons :-( Went to Radio Shack and bought a Receptacle/GFCI tester for $5.99. At the same time I noticed a gadget to locate breakers... bought it also ($29.95). Went home and tested the GFCIs... both have failed :-( Tester was verified on some indoor GFCIs... it would trip them. Both bad units are outdoors, so maybe it was the heat (they both face the western sun... it gets over 120°F here :-). Any other ideas about why they fail? The breaker locator is neat... plug a sender unit into an outlet, then scan the breakers... works like a champ. ...Jim Thompson That is why the electric company should install a GFCI up on the pole at the transformer. That way, everyone and everything is protected in the whole neighborhood. It would be inconvenient to wait for the Poco to reset it. The best thing would be a whole house GFCI, as is oftern used in most of the rest of the world. So something minor happens, and all the lights go off? THIS IS A VERY STUPID IDEA. The code here requires separate lighting and receptacle circuits so the room doesn't go dark if you trip a breaker. Also, most areas of a home do not need GFCI protection. Wet areas, areas with bare concrete floors, or outdoors make sense. Some circuits it is illegal to use a GFCI breaker, like a refrigerator, or a freezer. Really. If we have to ground-fault an entire house (because the occupants are too stupid and keep getting electrocuted to death) then maybe they should just go live in a hut somewhere in Afghanistan, where there is little risk of electrocution? I believe most european contries have a GFI, certainly we have them in Denmark where I live. I'm very happy we have those installed in the main power inlet because it is a lifesafer. Many houses fail to have correct or even installed ground/earth protection at all (before 1970 or thereabouts it was not illegal to run appliances without earting). In these cases the GFI serves a great purpose and which is why it was installed in the first place I have only experience lightning strikes mistakenly triggering the GFI two/three times over 30 years, so I see no reason to apply them only to certain areas in the house. The only times I have been bothered by the GFI is when I'm doing experiements in my lab, and in these cases I have been surprised sometimes because I did something stupid (like connecting the scope to the phone wire, tripping the GFI because the phoneline neutral is grounded also) Cheers Klaus |
#45
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
"Steve Sousa" writes:
We have that too. Different breakers for lighting and receptacles. More info: country is Portugal, Here we have the meter, followed by a big breaker that is also a GFI (which we call "differential breaker") outside the house/apartment, the differential fault current is 500mA and overcurrent is settable from 10 to 30 Amps, according to hired power. Then, inside the house there is the main panel with a smaller breaker/gfi that feeds all the circuit breakers. Mine is 30mA, way too high, in my experience. Lights and receptacles have to be on different circuits. Power is 3 phase at least for most houses, i'm not sure about apartments. It's clear your codes are far stiffer than ours. But part of it is we have a different approach. By making individual GFI's near the load, we have a lower setpoint than you can have for the whole house. We do not, as far as I know, require separate circuits for residence lighting & outlets; in many rooms, the only lamps plug into outlets. Sometimes the outlets are switched. (Commercial building DO have separate circuits.) Virtually no residence in the US has 3-phase. Considering the US's saturation of whole house air conditioning, we would do better if we did. Does your home have AC/electric heat? In general, the code required is the one in effect when the house was wired, or last rewired. When the code changes, the house does not; it is "grandfathered" in to the old standard. Is that true there? -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
#46
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David Lesher wrote:
Hi: "Steve Sousa" writes: It's clear your codes are far stiffer than ours. But part of it is we have a different approach. By making individual GFI's near the load, we have a lower setpoint than you can have for the whole house. I like the ideia of having more GFIs but this is not usually done as they are expensive, i think they are putting one for the bathrooms now, but i'm not sure. Only the whole house one is mandatory. Virtually no residence in the US has 3-phase. Considering the US's saturation of whole house air conditioning, we would do better if we did. Does your home have AC/electric heat? We use mostly electric space heaters, and the electrical water heater is as common as the gas one. However about 5 years ago the country had a network of natural gas installed and 99% of all houses build now come pre-equiped to use gas for central-heating. Regarding 3 phase, I believe that the main reason is that until some 15 years ago all houses had their own well(sp?) and the water-pump motor was always 3 phase. The evolution was: people had their fields, then electricity came and most people got a water-pump for the field, then houses were build on those fields, etc. But it's also a "policy" because 3 phase is more balanced, doesn't need so heavy wiring, specially if you consider that all the old houses had fuses, not breakers. Now i have 3x15Ax230V=10350W. I would need 45A breakers and wiring otherwise, quite a difference. However in most other aspects the code is very poor, like inspections, what's not allowed, etc. Yours is much more detailed. In general, the code required is the one in effect when the house was wired, or last rewired. When the code changes, the house does not; it is "grandfathered" in to the old standard. Is that true there? Yes, i think you can still have a wiring box with just fuses! But hey, they did update the meters to new models a few years ago... ;-) -- Steve Sousa |
#47
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David Lesher wrote: "Steve Sousa" writes: We have that too. Different breakers for lighting and receptacles. More info: country is Portugal, Here we have the meter, followed by a big breaker that is also a GFI (which we call "differential breaker") outside the house/apartment, the differential fault current is 500mA and overcurrent is settable from 10 to 30 Amps, according to hired power. Then, inside the house there is the main panel with a smaller breaker/gfi that feeds all the circuit breakers. Mine is 30mA, way too high, in my experience. Lights and receptacles have to be on different circuits. Power is 3 phase at least for most houses, i'm not sure about apartments. It's clear your codes are far stiffer than ours. The european codes have to be much stiffer than the US, it makes up for their stupid decision of bringing 240V into every socket in the house. It is quite rare for anyone to die when they accidentally come into contact with the US "max 120V to earth ground" residential electrical system. 120V is low enough that dry skin resistance performs a protective function, and limits how much current can get to the core of your body... to a highly uncomfortable, but usually non fatal amount. 240V is high enough so that the dry skin resistance is never enough to protect the core of the body from receiving a fatal amount of current. And yes, I know that the lethality of current passing through the core of your body depends on what organs it does, or does not pass through. -Chuck |
#48
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
In (Klaus Vestergaard
Kragelund): "Mark Jones" 127.0.0.1 wrote in message ... In (Michael A. Terrell): Gary Tait wrote: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 02:47:00 -0600, wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:44:40 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: Went outside to add another electrical circuit at the BBQ and discovered that all of my nice wire-tagging had faded to non-readable. So I couldn't figure out which common went with which hot. Then it dawned on me to simply trip the GFCIs which releases *both* hots and commons so a simple ohm-meter check would do the trick. NOT! Both GFCIs wouldn't trip when I pressed the test buttons :-( Went to Radio Shack and bought a Receptacle/GFCI tester for $5.99. At the same time I noticed a gadget to locate breakers... bought it also ($29.95). Went home and tested the GFCIs... both have failed :-( Tester was verified on some indoor GFCIs... it would trip them. Both bad units are outdoors, so maybe it was the heat (they both face the western sun... it gets over 120°F here :-). Any other ideas about why they fail? The breaker locator is neat... plug a sender unit into an outlet, then scan the breakers... works like a champ. ...Jim Thompson That is why the electric company should install a GFCI up on the pole at the transformer. That way, everyone and everything is protected in the whole neighborhood. It would be inconvenient to wait for the Poco to reset it. The best thing would be a whole house GFCI, as is oftern used in most of the rest of the world. So something minor happens, and all the lights go off? THIS IS A VERY STUPID IDEA. The code here requires separate lighting and receptacle circuits so the room doesn't go dark if you trip a breaker. Also, most areas of a home do not need GFCI protection. Wet areas, areas with bare concrete floors, or outdoors make sense. Some circuits it is illegal to use a GFCI breaker, like a refrigerator, or a freezer. Really. If we have to ground-fault an entire house (because the occupants are too stupid and keep getting electrocuted to death) then maybe they should just go live in a hut somewhere in Afghanistan, where there is little risk of electrocution? I believe most european contries have a GFI, certainly we have them in Denmark where I live. I'm very happy we have those installed in the main power inlet because it is a lifesafer. Many houses fail to have correct or even installed ground/earth protection at all (before 1970 or thereabouts it was not illegal to run appliances without earting). In these cases the GFI serves a great purpose and which is why it was installed in the first place I have only experience lightning strikes mistakenly triggering the GFI two/three times over 30 years, so I see no reason to apply them only to certain areas in the house. The only times I have been bothered by the GFI is when I'm doing experiements in my lab, and in these cases I have been surprised sometimes because I did something stupid (like connecting the scope to the phone wire, tripping the GFI because the phoneline neutral is grounded also) Cheers Klaus Interesting. All of the wiring in my house when it was built in the 60's was all non-grounded. Uses the round branch fuses... Since then a lot of the wiring has been upgraded, but even now some outlets are not grounded properly, and there is no GFCI's in any room. In the garage, the outlets are grounded to a metal rod in the ground, which barely passes as a ground, especially when cutting steel with a 380v cutter... A whole-house GFCI would be a nightmare for my residence. Some drills and other power tools out in the garage are the old metal ones, which do leak some parasitic conductance. I'm sure if my whole house was GFCI'd, I'd have a remote-reset for it.... |
#49
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In sci.electronics.design Fred Abse wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:18:15 -0500, Gary Tait wrote: It will, the test button on a GFCI usually, through a resistor, connects the GFCI protected hot to the unprotected neutral. That's just the same as loading the circuit, it won't work. GFCIs monitor current in *both* hot and neutral, which should be the same. You need to create an imbalance current by introducing a resistance between hot and *ground* 5mA might do it. 30mA _must_ do it, or the protection is no damn good. GFCIs monitor current in hot and neutral *after* the (unprotected) line input. You can create an imbalance current by introducing a *finite resistance[1]* between protected (load side) hot and *unprotected (line side) neutral*. That's how the GFCI test button works, with no connection to ground (witness the 2 prong GFCI in hair dryer plugs). It is not the same as simply loading the circuit. A GFCI tester that could not access the unprotected neutral would have to use some other path, ground being the most convenient. %mod% [1] An open circuit is infinite resistance. |
#50
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
"modervador" wrote in message
om... In sci.electronics.design Fred Abse wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:18:15 -0500, Gary Tait wrote: It will, the test button on a GFCI usually, through a resistor, connects the GFCI protected hot to the unprotected neutral. That's just the same as loading the circuit, it won't work. GFCIs monitor current in *both* hot and neutral, which should be the same. You need to create an imbalance current by introducing a resistance between hot and *ground* 5mA might do it. 30mA _must_ do it, or the protection is no damn good. GFCIs monitor current in hot and neutral *after* the (unprotected) line input. You can create an imbalance current by introducing a *finite resistance[1]* between protected (load side) hot and *unprotected (line side) neutral*. That's how the GFCI test button works, with no connection to ground (witness the 2 prong GFCI in hair dryer plugs). It is not the same as simply loading the circuit. A GFCI tester that could not access the unprotected neutral would have to use some other path, ground being the most convenient. %mod% [1] An open circuit is infinite resistance. There is no such thing as "infinite" resistance! With the appropriate instrumentation any resistance could be quantified. What you think of, or even measure, as an open circuit, is merely a circuit which has exceeded your, or your instrument's, ability to measure. :-] Louis-- ********************************************* Remove the two fish in address to respond |
#51
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
I read in sci.electronics.design that Louis Bybee louistroutbybee@comca
sttrout.net wrote (in MVQub.190487$275.636131@attbi_s53) about 'GFCI Failures + Gadgets', on Wed, 19 Nov 2003: There is no such thing as "infinite" resistance! Quite right. I have a very old (well, around 50 years) Twenty Million Megohmmeter. I don't suppose the EF37As still have low enough grid current. (;-) I keep it for the huge meter, which I can't bear to throw away. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! |
#52
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#53
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:56:54 -0500, Chuck Harris
wrote: The european codes have to be much stiffer than the US, it makes up for their stupid decision of bringing 240V into every socket in the house. 240V, IMO, is a good thing, needs less copper per watt delivered. That way, you can have more than 1500W appliances, without a special outlet installed. |
#54
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
Gary Tait wrote: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:56:54 -0500, Chuck Harris wrote: The european codes have to be much stiffer than the US, it makes up for their stupid decision of bringing 240V into every socket in the house. 240V, IMO, is a good thing, needs less copper per watt delivered. That way, you can have more than 1500W appliances, without a special outlet installed. Hi, I agree. In Korea, they switched to higher voltage. More economical! By law, they can't make and sell 120V stuffs for domestic use there. EC spec. is more strict in many things. For an example, look at the spec. for PC or laptop power supplies. Better spec. for frequency, voltage, noise, etc. Their TV(PAL) is better too, at least until HDTV takes over. Tony |
#55
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Gary Tait wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:56:54 -0500, Chuck Harris wrote: The european codes have to be much stiffer than the US, it makes up for their stupid decision of bringing 240V into every socket in the house. 240V, IMO, is a good thing, needs less copper per watt delivered. That way, you can have more than 1500W appliances, without a special outlet installed. I don't know about the wire gauges used in household electrics, but are you saying 110V kettles are no more than 1500W? Sheesh, no wonder Americans don't drink tea Tim -- And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a thousand thousand fold. The din of a million keyboards like unto a great storm shall cover the earth, and the followers of Mammon shall tremble. - The Book of Mozilla, 3:31 |
#56
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On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:38:16 +0000, Tim Auton tim.auton@uton.[group
sex without the y on the end] wrote: Gary Tait wrote: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:56:54 -0500, Chuck Harris wrote: The european codes have to be much stiffer than the US, it makes up for their stupid decision of bringing 240V into every socket in the house. 240V, IMO, is a good thing, needs less copper per watt delivered. That way, you can have more than 1500W appliances, without a special outlet installed. I don't know about the wire gauges used in household electrics, but are you saying 110V kettles are no more than 1500W? Sheesh, no wonder Americans don't drink tea Tim Something like that, as domestic outlets supply 1800W or so, and can only be loaded to 80% of it's ampacity. |
#57
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Jeff wrote: wrote in message ... Jeff wrote: Breakers are the best, Why are breakers the best? Because GFI breakers are at the panel, and all wiring, outlets, accessories, etc are protected, not just the ones after the GFI outlet. Ok, I see. It's not that the breaker is better, per se, it is the position it occupies in the circuit. GFI breakers should be more reliable, especially since they are in a usually fairly controlled environment. Ok - that's a technical reason for breakers over receptacles but only if it is true. Are GFCI breakers known to be more reliable then GFCI receptacles, to your knowledge? GFI breakers are also located in one spot - if a GFI plug trips from an outlet later on in the circuit, then there may be some difficulty in locating which GFI outlet tripped, or if a normal breaker tripped from over current. So that falls under "easier to use" (or whatever you want to call it.) Thanks! I don't necessarily agree that the points you raised make a GFI breaker better than a GFCI receptacle, but I can appreciate your rationale. |
#58
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w_tom wrote: Good idea if only using theoretical knowledge. It is a horrible idea, even if using only theoretical knowledge. I suspect that you have something different in mind when you say theoretical knowledge. I'm using it to mean the things below: The pole feed will rarely, if ever, have equal currents on the two hots and the neutral. If a different design was used that did not depend on imbalance, there is still the problem of tripping at 5 mA ground current to protect people. One could easily have 5 mA current to ground on one total service with no fault - and he's talking about protecting multiple services. False trips would be common. If the trip level was set higher, then there could be a current at that higher level through a person into ground. The size of the contacts would have to be enormous to handle the current. Bad in reality. It is a classical example of why decisions based only upon theory are not sufficient. It is why they teach in high school science the concepts. Required is both the theoretical concepts AND experiment confirmation. Why is the refrigerator, specifically demanded by code, not on a GFCI? Because GFCIs are good in some places and not desirable in others - as has been proven by experience. A blown GFCI on a refrigerator can create food poisoning - something learned by field experiments. wrote: That is why the electric company should install a GFCI up on the pole at the transformer. That way, everyone and everything is protected in the whole neighborhood. |
#59
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Gary Tait wrote:
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:38:16 +0000, Tim Auton tim.auton@uton.[group sex without the y on the end] wrote: [snip] I don't know about the wire gauges used in household electrics, but are you saying 110V kettles are no more than 1500W? Sheesh, no wonder Americans don't drink tea Something like that, as domestic outlets supply 1800W or so, and can only be loaded to 80% of it's ampacity. You can take my 3kW kettle from my cold, dead hand! Tim -- And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a thousand thousand fold. The din of a million keyboards like unto a great storm shall cover the earth, and the followers of Mammon shall tremble. - The Book of Mozilla, 3:31 |
#60
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Gary Tait wrote: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:03:14 GMT, "Jeff" wrote: It would be incpnvenient to wait for the Poco to reset it. The best thing would be a whole house GFCI, as is oftern used in most of the rest of the world. Whole house GFI? Where is this "rest of the world"? GFI'ing a whole house would be stupid. In actuality, they are often set up to protect only recptacle circuits. What does the word "they" refer to - a "whole house GFCI" ?? In actuality, there is no such thing that could be set up to protect only receptacle circuits. You can protect 1 branch circuit at a time with a GFI breaker or a GFCI receptacle. With a GFCI receptacle, you can also protect only a part of the circuit. A GFCI receptacle can be installed such that it protects all outlets wired downstream of it, or only itself. There's no such thing as a "whole house GFCI" in any event. |
#61
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#62
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"Gary Tait" wrote ...
Have you seen a European DIN panel setup? With the way they can be configured you can have certain groups of circuits protected, others not. What would be the reason for NOT protecting all ALL circuits? (Individually, I mean. A single GFCI on the main seems silly.) |
#63
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On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:19:28 -0800, "Richard Crowley"
wrote: "Gary Tait" wrote ... Have you seen a European DIN panel setup? With the way they can be configured you can have certain groups of circuits protected, others not. What would be the reason for NOT protecting all ALL circuits? (Individually, I mean. A single GFCI on the main seems silly.) Safety, in that some circuits, that ordinarily would not pose an electrical shock hazard to people, or would be catastrophic if they were to be accidentalle de-powered, such as lighting, heating/coolling, food refrigeration, and fixed appliances in general. |
#64
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The very least they could have done is run a center tapped grounded
configuration at the pole so there is a maximum of 120V to earth. Line to earth is the most common accidental leakage path that includes your whole body. -Chuck Gary Tait wrote: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:56:54 -0500, Chuck Harris wrote: The european codes have to be much stiffer than the US, it makes up for their stupid decision of bringing 240V into every socket in the house. 240V, IMO, is a good thing, needs less copper per watt delivered. That way, you can have more than 1500W appliances, without a special outlet installed. |
#65
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From: Tim Auton tim.auton@uton.[groupsex without the y on the end]
Date: 11/20/2003 2:21 AM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: Gary Tait wrote: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:38:16 +0000, Tim Auton tim.auton@uton.[group sex without the y on the end] wrote: [snip] I don't know about the wire gauges used in household electrics, but are you saying 110V kettles are no more than 1500W? Sheesh, no wonder Americans don't drink tea Something like that, as domestic outlets supply 1800W or so, and can only be loaded to 80% of it's ampacity. You can take my 3kW kettle from my cold, dead hand! Tim Outlaw kettles, and only outlaws will have kettles... |
#66
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#67
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From: Tim Auton tim.auton@uton.[groupsex without the y on the end]
Date: 11/20/2003 2:21 AM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: Gary Tait wrote: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:38:16 +0000, Tim Auton tim.auton@uton.[group sex without the y on the end] wrote: [snip] I don't know about the wire gauges used in household electrics, but are you saying 110V kettles are no more than 1500W? Sheesh, no wonder Americans don't drink tea Something like that, as domestic outlets supply 1800W or so, and can only be loaded to 80% of it's ampacity. You can take my 3kW kettle from my cold, dead hand! Heh. 1500W kettles work quite well too. Slower than a 3Kw one, but not too objectionably so. Americans are just culturally disposed against them for some reason, so they're relatively rarely seen there. Americans tend to boil their water in pots on the stove. A 1500W electric kettle is faster at boiling the same amount of water than a pot and stove are - I've run the highly complicated scientific tests ;-) Electric kettles are _very_ popular in Canada. And they make good gifts for Americans ;-) -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#68
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"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Gary Tait" wrote ... Have you seen a European DIN panel setup? With the way they can be configured you can have certain groups of circuits protected, others not. What would be the reason for NOT protecting all ALL circuits? (Individually, I mean. A single GFCI on the main seems silly.) Cost. Some loads will trip a GFCI inadvertantly. |
#70
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w_tom wrote in message ...
Good idea if only using theoretical knowledge. [...] Why is the refrigerator, specifically demanded by code, not on a GFCI? Because GFCIs are good in some places and not desirable in others - as has been proven by experience. A blown GFCI on a refrigerator can create food poisoning - something learned by field experiments. This would be a great example for considering all the effects of a 'safety' improvement. Has there ever been a paper, or a summary of the field trials, published on this result? Something that said, for example, that each year, in the USA, X people get electrocuted by refrigerators. This could be virtually eliminated by requring GFCIs, but then Y people would die of food poisoning, and YX. Or is it considered 'obvious' that this is the case? For example, refrigerators are usually grounded, so maybe X is near 0, and it would certainly be an inconvenience to have a GCFI breaker trip and spoil your food. Basically, does anyone know of any formal study or review on this topic? I could not find any on-line, but such a study would probably predate the internet. Thanks, Lou Scheffer |
#71
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I know of a study done , I put a gfi on my frige it blew, I took it off,
study done. |
#72
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
Lou Scheffer wrote:
This would be a great example for considering all the effects of a 'safety' improvement. Has there ever been a paper, or a summary of the field trials, published on this result? Something that said, for example, that each year, in the USA, X people get electrocuted by refrigerators. This could be virtually eliminated by requring GFCIs, but then Y people would die of food poisoning, and YX. Or is it considered 'obvious' that this is the case? For example, refrigerators are usually grounded, so maybe X is near 0, and it would certainly be an inconvenience to have a GCFI breaker trip and spoil your food. Basically, does anyone know of any formal study or review on this topic? I could not find any on-line, but such a study would probably predate the internet. Thanks, Lou Scheffer Have you seen a new refrigerator or freezer without a grounded cord in the last 20 years? The metal skin is grounded unless the power cord is damaged, or the wiring is bad. -- 22 days! Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
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GFCI Failures + Gadgets
Lou Scheffer wrote: w_tom wrote in message ... Good idea if only using theoretical knowledge. [...] Why is the refrigerator, specifically demanded by code, not on a GFCI? Because GFCIs are good in some places and not desirable in others - as has been proven by experience. A blown GFCI on a refrigerator can create food poisoning - something learned by field experiments. This would be a great example for considering all the effects of a 'safety' improvement. Has there ever been a paper, or a summary of the field trials, published on this result? Something that said, for example, that each year, in the USA, X people get electrocuted by refrigerators. This could be virtually eliminated by requring GFCIs, but then Y people would die of food poisoning, and YX. Or is it considered 'obvious' that this is the case? For example, refrigerators are usually grounded, so maybe X is near 0, and it would certainly be an inconvenience to have a GCFI breaker trip and spoil your food. Basically, does anyone know of any formal study or review on this topic? I could not find any on-line, but such a study would probably predate the internet. Thanks, Lou Scheffer The National Electrical Code requires the metal case of refrigerators and freezers to be grounded, rendering the issue you raise meaningless. |
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