Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
Hi,
I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2 bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is there any risk involved in buying this house? You comments greatly appreciated. Thanks Basha |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
"Basha" wrote in message m... Hi, I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2 bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is there any risk involved in buying this house? You comments greatly appreciated. Thanks Basha I'd check with the city. If the owner didn't get a permit - the finished basement may not be up to city codes, i.e. city may require egress windows for finished basements, etc. Better to be safe than sorry... My 2c, Matty |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
Aside from the points made by others, no bank/mortgage company will touch a
property which does not have a Certificate of Occupancy on an extension, or in this case, a finished area. Ask the current owner if he/she is willing to do the legwork to get the C of O and pay the fines. It can get very expensive and time consuming. If he/she won't, walk away. -- C.J. Pull my pud to reply "Basha" wrote in message m... Hi, I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2 bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is there any risk involved in buying this house? You comments greatly appreciated. Thanks Basha |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
Have the house inspected for local and state codes. I'm sure there
are many homes that finish the basement without permits. You want to be sure the house is safe to live in. On 12 Nov 2003 11:14:15 -0800, (Basha) wrote: Hi, I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2 bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is there any risk involved in buying this house? You comments greatly appreciated. Thanks Basha |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
Some areas may not require a permit to finish off an unfinished basement.
Check with the town offices before panicking. -- Remove "zz" from e-mail address to direct reply. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
In article ,
emove said... wrote: In article , said... Aside from the points made by others, no bank/mortgage company will touch a property which does not have a Certificate of Occupancy on an extension, or in this case, a finished area. Ask the current owner if he/she is willing to do the legwork to get the C of O and pay the fines. It can get very expensive and time consuming. If he/she won't, walk away. That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not. It depends on the town. Our town requires that an inspection be done by their building inspector and a CCO, Certificate of Continued Occupany, be issued before a house is sold. They are looking for any open permits or work done without a permit. They recomend you make an application for the CCO a month before closing so you have time to rectify any problems before closing. Our town requires the same thing, but they said nothing. I would bet good money that more than half of DIY basements are done off of the books. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
The main risk is that if they built right up to the foundation you will
not be able to inspect it's soundness That does THAT mean? Pat |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
Many houses have additions that were added without permits in order to avoid an
increase in property tax. Not only do owners do it but construction companies do, too, to accommodate their customers. Legally, it makes no difference whatsoever to the owner of the property. Speaking from experience, the tax department doesn't care, either. Pat |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
"Brad" wrote in message Our town requires the same thing, but they said nothing. I would bet good money that more than half of DIY basements are done off of the books. I'd say about 99% are done that way. My old house was done that way and nothing was ever questioned. My only concern would be using the rooms as bedrooms. Code requires a method of egress in case of fire. It the windows are of sufficient size, no problem. Ed |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
no bank/mortgage company will touch a
property which does not have a Certificate of Occupancy When the house was originally built, it got a certificate of occupancy. That is quite enough. If he/she won't, walk away. Nonsense. People buy these houses every day. Pat |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I
did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not. You're right. And the property assessment department couldn't care less. And the tax assessor couldn't care less, either. I speak from experience. Pat |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit-Please advise
Patscga wrote: That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not. You're right. And the property assessment department couldn't care less. And the tax assessor couldn't care less, either. I speak from experience. Pat Hi Insurance company may care if they know about it when fire broke out. Tony |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message news:ymxsb.377958$pl3.271758@pd7tw3no... Insurance company may care if they know about it when fire broke out. Tony Possibly if there were code violations that caused the fire. If the entire house is destroyed, they'd never know anyway. When is the last time your house was inspected by an insurance company? Every 10 years the tax assessor makes a visit. Add a bathroom, pay more taxes because the value went up. No on ever asked about permits though. They just want the revenue. This year the evaluation was done over the phone. Ed |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
"Patscga"wrote in message That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not. You're right. And the property assessment department couldn't care less. And the tax assessor couldn't care less, either. I speak from experience. Pat You're speaking solely of your area. Where I'm sitting, they do assessments ever 3 years, they base assessment on living area. A basement is not considered living area unless finished. Those that do not let the county auditor in for assessment, find their taxes sky high, and soon welcome the auditor back for a visual assessment after they file a lengthy and time consuming appeal. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
|
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
|
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
On 12 Nov 2003, Basha wrote:
You comments greatly appreciated. I didn't sift through all of the sub-replies, just the top level. In case nobody mentioned these things: 1) The need for "permits" varies in every single municipality in the land. Some require a permit for everything, some have a specific list of projects, some classify need based on "changing the structural integrity..." or some similar wording. Check with your muni, that's the ONLY safe way to answer that. 2) As others have pointed out, don't confuse permits with the quality/safeness of the work. It may still be OK, you need an inspection to tell you that. 3) That's a lot of living space, and you can almost bet that it's not documented for tax assessment purposes. Count on the taxes going WAY up after the cat is out of the bag. HTH. -- Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie -------------------------------------------------------- Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit-Please advise
Hi,
My present house was 100% developed when built by my custom builder. B4 I used to finish basement myself. Our city has DIY permit for electrical work and plumbing. Cost is minimal. It includes two inspections. This goes on city record which means you met the code requirement. If everything is done in private, there is no supporting document whether the work was done per code. Insurance coimpany can pick on this as their excuse. If they tell the owner, your wiring was sub standard which caused fire. How can the owner counter that? My local government is not like yours. Tony Edwin Pawlowski wrote: "Tony Hwang" wrote in message news:ymxsb.377958$pl3.271758@pd7tw3no... Insurance company may care if they know about it when fire broke out. Tony Possibly if there were code violations that caused the fire. If the entire house is destroyed, they'd never know anyway. When is the last time your house was inspected by an insurance company? Every 10 years the tax assessor makes a visit. Add a bathroom, pay more taxes because the value went up. No on ever asked about permits though. They just want the revenue. This year the evaluation was done over the phone. Ed |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
who are you kidding?
|
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
Sounds too much like what a certain relative of mine did...their new
house's basement and roof leak and rather than fight with the builder, they finished the basement themselves, and covered the water damage stains, etc. They are planning on selling without disclosure, and now deny, even to family members who are well aware of all this, that it ever happened. In some areas codes are not really enforced, but lenders may feel otherwise about accepting this. It is up to you but at least get an inspection. Good luck, hope you find a good house soon. (Basha) wrote in message om... Hi, I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2 bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is there any risk involved in buying this house? You comments greatly appreciated. Thanks Basha |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
In article ,
said... On 12 Nov 2003 11:14:15 -0800, (Basha) wrote: I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2 bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is there any risk involved in buying this house? I believe there is. Neither you nor a home inspector can see through the walls. If the electrical wasn't permitted and inspected, how can you know whether or not it was properly done. Same thing with plumbing and gas. As to the bedroom, is there legal egress, and if there is and an enlarged window was installed, was it done correctly or was the structure compromised?. I'm a contractor and I've seen enough unpermitted work (usually done by homeowners) that is poor practice and even unsafe to scare me off. I'm a DIYer and I've seen enough work by contractors that is poor practice and even unsafe. I have to live in the house so I trust my work much more than some guy who knows the aisles at Home Depot and has a sign on his truck. My wife and I are currently househunting ... when I come across one with an unpermitted finished basement, I value the basement development at minus three thousand dollars (the cost of tearing it out). So you don't even give it a chance. It's possible that the job is actually better than anything you might do. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
-- The admission of ignorance is the first step on the road to knowledge. The beginning of understanding is an open mind. "Basha" wrote in message m... Hi, I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2 bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is there any risk involved in buying this house? You comments greatly appreciated. Thanks Basha Several. First off, everything was fine as long as anyone didn't bring it to the attention of the authorities. Now that they know, they may investigate. Were you to buy it, you would be the current owner, and would have to allow inspectors access. Yes, the risks is there. It may not be up to code. It may be unsafe either structurally or electrically. It may need an escape system that meets code. In short, I would not consider buying it until THE OWNER got and paid for all the legal stuff to make the house legal. You could come back and sue him for lack of disclosure, but you would spend even more money on lawyers than it is worth. You will have enough to do with fixing up. You don't need the hassle of anything like this to contend with, too. Steve |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
"Brad" wrote The soundness of the foundation. If you can't see the walls you won't see any potential problems. Nobody cares about the soundness of a basement wall. It's not holding anything up so if it looks plumb, it's good. Doesn't the basement wall hold up some of the house? Steve |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
|
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
In article , segunis12508
@hotmail.com said... who are you kidding? More importantly, who are you talking to? |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement withoutpermit-Please advise
Tony Hwang wrote:
Patscga wrote: That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not. You're right. And the property assessment department couldn't care less. And the tax assessor couldn't care less, either. I speak from experience. Pat Hi Insurance company may care if they know about it when fire broke out. Tony Depends where you are IMHO. Insurance companies can be a different matter; especially when insurance industry profits are down! In this township the regulations about 'finishing' a basement are pretty relaxed. Most people wouldn't even think about a permit (if one is even required!) and the town doesn't seem to check. Finishing out a basement area is generally seen as someone having 'improved' the property and added to its market/resale value. Many homeowners here are excellent do it your selfers, are in the construction industry themselves or have relatives/friends who help them out. But next time (maybe five/ten years later) a tax assessment is done the 'improvement' may be picked up and the assessed value increased; to the surprise and remorse of the owner! The 'new' owner of a purchased property, having made no changes themselves during those years, then demands to know why 'his' assessment has increased! There was a recent house fire (caused by an electrical malfunction on or near the main panel, at night; the three occupants were lucky to get out alive! Fortunately none were sleeping in the basement which had only one exit although some of the basement windows were at or above grade level, which would have possibly been an escape if required. AFIK the homeowner got everything fixed by his insurance company; after all they insured the house for him just the way he bought it from the original/previous owner! But the owners son told me that the insurance company found that the rapid spread of the fire and an amount of the damage was aggravated by the manner in which the basement had been 'finished' by the previous owner. Specifically there was a lack of fire blocking and there were large air spaces behind the wood framed finished basement uprights walls, which had been added. The original structure was comprised of partial concrete walls with a wood framed 'knee wall' on top of the concrete, supporting the main floor. As a result of the basement being 'finished' there was, for example, a large open air space behind the added interior 'basement' wall above the concrete wall that allowed the fire, once started to spread quickly along one whole side of the house. So beware of a) Risky construction and b) What your insurance might NOT cover; quite apart from c) Risk of death injury to your family! Terry. |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
wrote in news
On 12 Nov 2003 11:14:15 -0800, (Basha) wrote: Hi, I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2 bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is there any risk involved in buying this house? You comments greatly appreciated. Thanks Basha I believe there is. Neither you nor a home inspector can see through the walls. If the electrical wasn't permitted and inspected, how can you know whether or not it was properly done. Same thing with plumbing and gas. As to the bedroom, is there legal egress, and if there is and an enlarged window was installed, was it done correctly or was the structure compromised?. I'm a contractor and I've seen enough unpermitted work (usually done by homeowners) that is poor practice and even unsafe to scare me off. My wife and I are currently househunting ... when I come across one with an unpermitted finished basement, I value the basement development at minus three thousand dollars (the cost of tearing it out). It depends on the area. You'll have to ask (probably the local building/inspection office) what's necessary, and what it would take to remedy the situation. When my FIL went to the city (small town in Texas) and asked what he needed to do to put an addition on his house, the guy gave him a funny look and said, "Go build it!" In other words, no permits or inspections were require d(only for septic, which he wasn't doing). |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
The writer didn't have a basement built; he just "finished" it.
Pat |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
I'm not trying to kid anybody. I'm a real estate broker in Atlanta, GA. I
also am a home owner. I also have neighbors who finished basements themselves and never had inspections and the houses sold several times after that. I also have had contractors who have told me they would forego the inspections in order to save me me from having my property taxes raised. I also have reported one of these contractors and was told by the County inspection office that people do that all the time and there's nothing they can do about it. Pat |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
Speaking from experience:
My current house had a third bedroom added and a garage finished into living space and a new garage built without permits (at least that I can tell). All done by a DIY'er. It even made it into a national magazine as a model project. THings that were done wrong: Grade raised above the top of foundation, Hot and Nuetral reversed in the garage refinish, Skylights installed wrong, Bay windows installed wrong, THe upgrage to 100 amp service did not upgrade the wire leading to the house (so it burnt out when I turned the AC on), Roof flashing installed wrong, septic tank sized for a 2 bedroom house, high effiency furnace with no flue liner, lack of GFI's, radiant heating system incorrectly installed. I could go on but I'm too busy scratching my head on why some things were done. Don't get me wrong, I love my house and am slowly correcting things but the home inspection only caught 2 of the issues. Proper permits and inspections would have found most of them. Flags should go up if the work was done by a DIY'er and a more thorough inspection performed. My bank did not even care if there were permits for past work. "Basha" wrote in message m... Hi, I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2 bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is there any risk involved in buying this house? You comments greatly appreciated. Thanks Basha |
#36
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
|
#37
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
Thanks for all your comments.
The first step I am going to do today is going to the muncipal office and enquire about this. I will also talk to one of the city inspectors. I will post the happenings. Thanks again. |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
Please learn to quote the article to which you are responding.
Tlle me what I did wrong. Pat |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:17:06 -0500, Brad wrote:
In article , said... On 12 Nov 2003 11:14:15 -0800, (Basha) wrote: I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2 bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is there any risk involved in buying this house? I believe there is. Neither you nor a home inspector can see through the walls. If the electrical wasn't permitted and inspected, how can you know whether or not it was properly done. Same thing with plumbing and gas. As to the bedroom, is there legal egress, and if there is and an enlarged window was installed, was it done correctly or was the structure compromised?. I'm a contractor and I've seen enough unpermitted work (usually done by homeowners) that is poor practice and even unsafe to scare me off. I'm a DIYer and I've seen enough work by contractors that is poor practice and even unsafe. I have to live in the house so I trust my work much more than some guy who knows the aisles at Home Depot and has a sign on his truck. The point that you seem to have completely missed is that the work was done without permits or inspections - regardless of how good the homeowner may be at doing the work the fact remains that if they didn't do it in accordance with codes that were current at the time and then have it inspected and it passed, you are left with relying on any faith you have in the unknown homeowner ability not to cross the wires or connect the gas lines to the water lines! The other point that was developed as the thread went along was the fact that features that were potentially hazardous to the health and safety of the occupants may have been ignored by the homeowner, i.e. proper egress from the area that was finished. My wife and I are currently househunting ... when I come across one with an unpermitted finished basement, I value the basement development at minus three thousand dollars (the cost of tearing it out). So you don't even give it a chance. It's possible that the job is actually better than anything you might do. It can have a chance if at least it could be proved that it was not necessarily better, but at least that it was in conformance with the established standards and codes - no permits = no inspections leave you with a mystery! |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
In article ,
said... On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:58:48 -0500, Brad wrote: In article KdAsb.1465$Q64.263@fed1read03, said... "Brad" wrote The soundness of the foundation. If you can't see the walls you won't see any potential problems. Nobody cares about the soundness of a basement wall. It's not holding anything up so if it looks plumb, it's good. Doesn't the basement wall hold up some of the house? I'm talking about what is basically just a partition wall that you put up when you finish a basement. But you said 'soundness of the foundation'. Yes - that's what you're trying to check, but you can't because there's a wall covering it. The soundness of the wall doesn't mean anything since it's not holding anything up. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Buying a house - flooding risk info. | UK diy | |||
Nice write up about LEDs | Metalworking | |||
Buying an underpinned house? | UK diy | |||
Buying a house with a view to extend... | UK diy | |||
Extending Basement Under House | UK diy |