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  #1   Report Post  
houseslave
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions

Hi,

Is it better to have a one line system or two line system on the typical oil
burner (line going to the head and to the tank). I read that a two line
system pumps more oil then is needed to fire and the rest is sent back to
the tank. I also read that a one line system is better for not rustling up
the sludge on the bottom of the oil tank? Are there pros and cons for both?
I read that the big guys are going away from two line systems because if the
line breaks you could pump a lot of oil into your boiler room.


  #2   Report Post  
john williamson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions

Riello Oil Burner Questions


Riello Oil Burner Questions

Group: alt.home.repair Date: Wed, Oct 15, 2003, 11:05am (EDT+4) From:
(houseslave)
Hi,
Is it better to have a one line system or two line system on the typical
oil burner (line going to the head and to the tank). I read that a two
line system pumps more oil then is needed to fire and the rest is sent
back to the tank. I also read that a one line system is better for not
rustling up the sludge on the bottom of the oil tank? Are there pros and
cons for both? I read that the big guys are going away from two line
systems because if the line breaks you could pump a lot of oil into your
boiler room.

++++++++++++++++++

John wrote:

It all depends on the installation. A two pipe system can lift higher
and will allow longer oil lines. A single pipe system will need manual
purging of the oil pump if run out of oil, a two pipe system will not
need manual purging. I don't think rustling up the sludge is an issue.
It is true that if the return line breaks you can pump out oil, but in
the same token if a single pipe line breaks and the tank is above the
pump, the oil will flow out or siphon out also. I think the likely
hood of any line breaking is remote, leaks usually occur at the
fittings, pipes don't break if installed correctly and are not damaged.

A single pipe system requires half the copper and fittings, I suspect
this could be a consideration for some.

John Williamson

  #3   Report Post  
john williamson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions

Riello Oil Burner Questions


Riello Oil Burner Questions

Group: alt.home.repair Date: Wed, Oct 15, 2003, 11:05am (EDT+4) From:
(houseslave)
Hi,
Is it better to have a one line system or two line system on the typical
oil burner (line going to the head and to the tank). I read that a two
line system pumps more oil then is needed to fire and the rest is sent
back to the tank. I also read that a one line system is better for not
rustling up the sludge on the bottom of the oil tank? Are there pros and
cons for both? I read that the big guys are going away from two line
systems because if the line breaks you could pump a lot of oil into your
boiler room.

++++++++++++++++++

John wrote:

It all depends on the installation. A two pipe system can lift higher
and will allow longer oil lines. A single pipe system will need manual
purging of the oil pump if run out of oil, a two pipe system will not
need manual purging. I don't think rustling up the sludge is an issue.
It is true that if the return line breaks you can pump out oil, but in
the same token if a single pipe line breaks and the tank is above the
pump, the oil will flow out or siphon out also. I think the likely
hood of any line breaking is remote, leaks usually occur at the
fittings, pipes don't break if installed correctly and are not damaged.

A single pipe system requires half the copper and fittings, I suspect
this could be a consideration for some.

John Williamson

  #4   Report Post  
L. M. Rappaport
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:05:20 GMT, "houseslave"
wrote (with possible editing):

Hi,

Is it better to have a one line system or two line system on the typical oil
burner (line going to the head and to the tank). I read that a two line
system pumps more oil then is needed to fire and the rest is sent back to
the tank. I also read that a one line system is better for not rustling up
the sludge on the bottom of the oil tank? Are there pros and cons for both?
I read that the big guys are going away from two line systems because if the
line breaks you could pump a lot of oil into your boiler room.


One consideration: if you live in a very cold climate, the
recirculating oil in a two line system will help keep oil in tank from
gelling.

So far as pumping oil into your room, it might also depend upon the
height of the tank relative to the height of the burner; i.e., whether
or not a tank would siphon.

One of the "experts" that visited our home trying to cure a
hard-starting Riello said that he preferred a single line because it
gave the oil a better chance to warm up before going to the burner.
He claimed that the oil had to be over 50 degrees for some reason or
another so he switched us from a double to a single line system, but
since he was never able to cure the hard start, I have no idea if he
was correct.


--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com
  #5   Report Post  
L. M. Rappaport
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:05:20 GMT, "houseslave"
wrote (with possible editing):

Hi,

Is it better to have a one line system or two line system on the typical oil
burner (line going to the head and to the tank). I read that a two line
system pumps more oil then is needed to fire and the rest is sent back to
the tank. I also read that a one line system is better for not rustling up
the sludge on the bottom of the oil tank? Are there pros and cons for both?
I read that the big guys are going away from two line systems because if the
line breaks you could pump a lot of oil into your boiler room.


One consideration: if you live in a very cold climate, the
recirculating oil in a two line system will help keep oil in tank from
gelling.

So far as pumping oil into your room, it might also depend upon the
height of the tank relative to the height of the burner; i.e., whether
or not a tank would siphon.

One of the "experts" that visited our home trying to cure a
hard-starting Riello said that he preferred a single line because it
gave the oil a better chance to warm up before going to the burner.
He claimed that the oil had to be over 50 degrees for some reason or
another so he switched us from a double to a single line system, but
since he was never able to cure the hard start, I have no idea if he
was correct.


--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com


  #6   Report Post  
houseslave
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions



One of the "experts" that visited our home trying to cure a
hard-starting Riello said that he preferred a single line because it
gave the oil a better chance to warm up before going to the burner.
He claimed that the oil had to be over 50 degrees for some reason or
another so he switched us from a double to a single line system, but
since he was never able to cure the hard start, I have no idea if he
was correct.


How would a single line system heat the oil any better than a two line
system? This doesn't make sense to me...

Also, I have two oil burners feeding off the same line. We had a problem
with one line starving the other. I had check valves put in and that solved
the problem. I also read that you can put in a switch that will only allow
one burner to fire at a time. On my hot water heater I now have a two line
system and on the boiler's burner I have a one line system. I'll let you
guys know if I have any problems with both appliances this winter. It's
still to mild to tell if my installation is golden. My old Beckett head had
a .80 nozzle, was low rpm and ran dirty. The new Riello has a 1gph nozzle
and really heats the boiler to temp faster. The tech also performed a smoke
test and there was no smoke residue on the paper. I was told that the
Reillo will run super clean compared to my 25 year old Beckett head. I hope
to see a 20-30% savings. The tech said that my old Utica boiler was built
like a tank and is made better then the newer Utica.


  #7   Report Post  
houseslave
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions



One of the "experts" that visited our home trying to cure a
hard-starting Riello said that he preferred a single line because it
gave the oil a better chance to warm up before going to the burner.
He claimed that the oil had to be over 50 degrees for some reason or
another so he switched us from a double to a single line system, but
since he was never able to cure the hard start, I have no idea if he
was correct.


How would a single line system heat the oil any better than a two line
system? This doesn't make sense to me...

Also, I have two oil burners feeding off the same line. We had a problem
with one line starving the other. I had check valves put in and that solved
the problem. I also read that you can put in a switch that will only allow
one burner to fire at a time. On my hot water heater I now have a two line
system and on the boiler's burner I have a one line system. I'll let you
guys know if I have any problems with both appliances this winter. It's
still to mild to tell if my installation is golden. My old Beckett head had
a .80 nozzle, was low rpm and ran dirty. The new Riello has a 1gph nozzle
and really heats the boiler to temp faster. The tech also performed a smoke
test and there was no smoke residue on the paper. I was told that the
Reillo will run super clean compared to my 25 year old Beckett head. I hope
to see a 20-30% savings. The tech said that my old Utica boiler was built
like a tank and is made better then the newer Utica.


  #8   Report Post  
L. M. Rappaport
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:55:44 GMT, "houseslave"
wrote (with possible editing):



One of the "experts" that visited our home trying to cure a
hard-starting Riello said that he preferred a single line because it
gave the oil a better chance to warm up before going to the burner.
He claimed that the oil had to be over 50 degrees for some reason or
another so he switched us from a double to a single line system, but
since he was never able to cure the hard start, I have no idea if he
was correct.


How would a single line system heat the oil any better than a two line
system? This doesn't make sense to me...


Again, I'm no expert, but it appears he's right. A two line system
uses a blow-by (for want of a better term). This means the oil is
circulating at a constant rate which is considerably more than what is
used. Consequently, the oil spends less time in the heated home
before returning to the tank. A single line system holds the oil in
the feedline until it's used; therefore, it has more time to warm up
in the heated home.

Also, I have two oil burners feeding off the same line. We had a problem
with one line starving the other. I had check valves put in and that solved
the problem. I also read that you can put in a switch that will only allow
one burner to fire at a time. On my hot water heater I now have a two line
system and on the boiler's burner I have a one line system. I'll let you
guys know if I have any problems with both appliances this winter. It's
still to mild to tell if my installation is golden. My old Beckett head had
a .80 nozzle, was low rpm and ran dirty. The new Riello has a 1gph nozzle
and really heats the boiler to temp faster. The tech also performed a smoke
test and there was no smoke residue on the paper. I was told that the
Reillo will run super clean compared to my 25 year old Beckett head. I hope
to see a 20-30% savings. The tech said that my old Utica boiler was built
like a tank and is made better then the newer Utica.


The only possible problem you might have with one line feeding two
burners at once (AND I EMPHASIZE THAT I AM NOT A BURNER TECH, so
hopefully one will address this) is that both are sucking oil at the
same time. It's conceivable that one might not have enough suction to
get oil. JUST A GUESS!

At my location, another reason for switching to the one line system
was that our diesel generator was tied into the same line. The last
tech cited the above as yet another reason for switching to single
lines. He put the generator on one line and the burner on the other.
The generator was setup for two lines, but fortunately nothing comes
out of the return line, so we stuck it in a 5 gallon pail and check it
occasionally.

--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com

  #9   Report Post  
L. M. Rappaport
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:55:44 GMT, "houseslave"
wrote (with possible editing):



One of the "experts" that visited our home trying to cure a
hard-starting Riello said that he preferred a single line because it
gave the oil a better chance to warm up before going to the burner.
He claimed that the oil had to be over 50 degrees for some reason or
another so he switched us from a double to a single line system, but
since he was never able to cure the hard start, I have no idea if he
was correct.


How would a single line system heat the oil any better than a two line
system? This doesn't make sense to me...


Again, I'm no expert, but it appears he's right. A two line system
uses a blow-by (for want of a better term). This means the oil is
circulating at a constant rate which is considerably more than what is
used. Consequently, the oil spends less time in the heated home
before returning to the tank. A single line system holds the oil in
the feedline until it's used; therefore, it has more time to warm up
in the heated home.

Also, I have two oil burners feeding off the same line. We had a problem
with one line starving the other. I had check valves put in and that solved
the problem. I also read that you can put in a switch that will only allow
one burner to fire at a time. On my hot water heater I now have a two line
system and on the boiler's burner I have a one line system. I'll let you
guys know if I have any problems with both appliances this winter. It's
still to mild to tell if my installation is golden. My old Beckett head had
a .80 nozzle, was low rpm and ran dirty. The new Riello has a 1gph nozzle
and really heats the boiler to temp faster. The tech also performed a smoke
test and there was no smoke residue on the paper. I was told that the
Reillo will run super clean compared to my 25 year old Beckett head. I hope
to see a 20-30% savings. The tech said that my old Utica boiler was built
like a tank and is made better then the newer Utica.


The only possible problem you might have with one line feeding two
burners at once (AND I EMPHASIZE THAT I AM NOT A BURNER TECH, so
hopefully one will address this) is that both are sucking oil at the
same time. It's conceivable that one might not have enough suction to
get oil. JUST A GUESS!

At my location, another reason for switching to the one line system
was that our diesel generator was tied into the same line. The last
tech cited the above as yet another reason for switching to single
lines. He put the generator on one line and the burner on the other.
The generator was setup for two lines, but fortunately nothing comes
out of the return line, so we stuck it in a 5 gallon pail and check it
occasionally.

--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com

  #10   Report Post  
CBHvac
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions

Got into this late, so various points addressed in various places below.

"L. M. Rappaport" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:55:44 GMT, "houseslave"
wrote (with possible editing):



One of the "experts" that visited our home trying to cure a
hard-starting Riello said that he preferred a single line because it
gave the oil a better chance to warm up before going to the burner.



Depends, and I mean, depends.
IF you have 20 feet of indoor line, and 10 feet of outdoor, maybe..and I
mean..MAYBE.

He claimed that the oil had to be over 50 degrees for some reason or
another so he switched us from a double to a single line system, but
since he was never able to cure the hard start, I have no idea if he
was correct.


Funny how all the oil burners here work just fine when you have a couple of
weeks in the teens...


How would a single line system heat the oil any better than a two line
system? This doesn't make sense to me...


Its all about the time in the line, in a heated space...otherwise, total
bunk.


Again, I'm no expert, but it appears he's right. A two line system
uses a blow-by (for want of a better term). This means the oil is
circulating at a constant rate which is considerably more than what is
used. Consequently, the oil spends less time in the heated home
before returning to the tank. A single line system holds the oil in
the feedline until it's used; therefore, it has more time to warm up
in the heated home.


A two line system is self priming. its a much prefered method for old timers
and those that know how to set up a burner system..costs a bit more , as the
pump has to be modified a bit, but thats included in the factory
setups...you have to change a couple of things that are not ready from the
start, but its ok, and you have to use more line.
Its much better for the homeowner, as if the unit should ever drain the
tank, all you have to do is hit the reset. I have been known to even go so
far as to mount the control in a box, near the breakers for added convience
if the unit should trip. The homeowner is told to hit it ONE time, and if it
trips again, call.


Also, I have two oil burners feeding off the same line. We had a problem
with one line starving the other. I had check valves put in and that

solved
the problem. I also read that you can put in a switch that will only

allow
one burner to fire at a time. On my hot water heater I now have a two

line
system and on the boiler's burner I have a one line system. I'll let you
guys know if I have any problems with both appliances this winter. It's
still to mild to tell if my installation is golden. My old Beckett head

had
a .80 nozzle, was low rpm and ran dirty. The new Riello has a 1gph

nozzle
and really heats the boiler to temp faster. The tech also performed a

smoke
test and there was no smoke residue on the paper. I was told that the
Reillo will run super clean compared to my 25 year old Beckett head. I

hope
to see a 20-30% savings. The tech said that my old Utica boiler was

built
like a tank and is made better then the newer Utica.


Actually, if you have two lines that feed off one, all you need is a larger
feeder. Oil and gas, water, etc...principles the same. You cant run two
large units, with larger nozzles, sucking fuel like no tomorrow, off one
3/8ths line. Its all about volume.



The only possible problem you might have with one line feeding two
burners at once (AND I EMPHASIZE THAT I AM NOT A BURNER TECH, so
hopefully one will address this) is that both are sucking oil at the
same time. It's conceivable that one might not have enough suction to
get oil. JUST A GUESS!


The pump is the suction part. As long as both pumps are running, and primed,
you have suction.
Its the volume that each is demanding, VS the volume that is there in the
main feed line that will create issues.
Pressure is built AT the pump..the only pressure on the feed lines is the
weight of the fuel in the tank on it.


At my location, another reason for switching to the one line system
was that our diesel generator was tied into the same line. The last
tech cited the above as yet another reason for switching to single
lines. He put the generator on one line and the burner on the other.
The generator was setup for two lines, but fortunately nothing comes
out of the return line, so we stuck it in a 5 gallon pail and check it
occasionally.


Then its not set up at the pump for two lines, and I suggest that you either
remove the second line and cap the pump with the plug that should be there,
or get it set up for a dual line and get it ran out to the tank.
IF that pump fails, you are going to be vEEEEERy surprised at how fast a 5
gallon pail fills on that small line.


--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com





  #11   Report Post  
CBHvac
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions

Got into this late, so various points addressed in various places below.

"L. M. Rappaport" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:55:44 GMT, "houseslave"
wrote (with possible editing):



One of the "experts" that visited our home trying to cure a
hard-starting Riello said that he preferred a single line because it
gave the oil a better chance to warm up before going to the burner.



Depends, and I mean, depends.
IF you have 20 feet of indoor line, and 10 feet of outdoor, maybe..and I
mean..MAYBE.

He claimed that the oil had to be over 50 degrees for some reason or
another so he switched us from a double to a single line system, but
since he was never able to cure the hard start, I have no idea if he
was correct.


Funny how all the oil burners here work just fine when you have a couple of
weeks in the teens...


How would a single line system heat the oil any better than a two line
system? This doesn't make sense to me...


Its all about the time in the line, in a heated space...otherwise, total
bunk.


Again, I'm no expert, but it appears he's right. A two line system
uses a blow-by (for want of a better term). This means the oil is
circulating at a constant rate which is considerably more than what is
used. Consequently, the oil spends less time in the heated home
before returning to the tank. A single line system holds the oil in
the feedline until it's used; therefore, it has more time to warm up
in the heated home.


A two line system is self priming. its a much prefered method for old timers
and those that know how to set up a burner system..costs a bit more , as the
pump has to be modified a bit, but thats included in the factory
setups...you have to change a couple of things that are not ready from the
start, but its ok, and you have to use more line.
Its much better for the homeowner, as if the unit should ever drain the
tank, all you have to do is hit the reset. I have been known to even go so
far as to mount the control in a box, near the breakers for added convience
if the unit should trip. The homeowner is told to hit it ONE time, and if it
trips again, call.


Also, I have two oil burners feeding off the same line. We had a problem
with one line starving the other. I had check valves put in and that

solved
the problem. I also read that you can put in a switch that will only

allow
one burner to fire at a time. On my hot water heater I now have a two

line
system and on the boiler's burner I have a one line system. I'll let you
guys know if I have any problems with both appliances this winter. It's
still to mild to tell if my installation is golden. My old Beckett head

had
a .80 nozzle, was low rpm and ran dirty. The new Riello has a 1gph

nozzle
and really heats the boiler to temp faster. The tech also performed a

smoke
test and there was no smoke residue on the paper. I was told that the
Reillo will run super clean compared to my 25 year old Beckett head. I

hope
to see a 20-30% savings. The tech said that my old Utica boiler was

built
like a tank and is made better then the newer Utica.


Actually, if you have two lines that feed off one, all you need is a larger
feeder. Oil and gas, water, etc...principles the same. You cant run two
large units, with larger nozzles, sucking fuel like no tomorrow, off one
3/8ths line. Its all about volume.



The only possible problem you might have with one line feeding two
burners at once (AND I EMPHASIZE THAT I AM NOT A BURNER TECH, so
hopefully one will address this) is that both are sucking oil at the
same time. It's conceivable that one might not have enough suction to
get oil. JUST A GUESS!


The pump is the suction part. As long as both pumps are running, and primed,
you have suction.
Its the volume that each is demanding, VS the volume that is there in the
main feed line that will create issues.
Pressure is built AT the pump..the only pressure on the feed lines is the
weight of the fuel in the tank on it.


At my location, another reason for switching to the one line system
was that our diesel generator was tied into the same line. The last
tech cited the above as yet another reason for switching to single
lines. He put the generator on one line and the burner on the other.
The generator was setup for two lines, but fortunately nothing comes
out of the return line, so we stuck it in a 5 gallon pail and check it
occasionally.


Then its not set up at the pump for two lines, and I suggest that you either
remove the second line and cap the pump with the plug that should be there,
or get it set up for a dual line and get it ran out to the tank.
IF that pump fails, you are going to be vEEEEERy surprised at how fast a 5
gallon pail fills on that small line.


--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com



  #12   Report Post  
L. M. Rappaport
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:08:26 -0400, "CBHvac"
wrote (with possible editing):

....snipped most

Depends, and I mean, depends.
IF you have 20 feet of indoor line, and 10 feet of outdoor, maybe..and I
mean..MAYBE.


We have about 60' of 2, 1/2" lines to one location, and about 30' of
3/8" lines to another.. The 2000 gal tank is in a concrete bunker
buried in a hillside and covered with an insulated roof. The pipes
are in trenches about 3 feet deep and sandwiched between 2 layers of
2" polystyrene. The shorter run goes indoors 10' to a hot air
furnace, the longer goes indoors maybe 15' runs the boiler and diesel
generator.


He claimed that the oil had to be over 50 degrees for some reason or
another so he switched us from a double to a single line system, but
since he was never able to cure the hard start, I have no idea if he
was correct.


Funny how all the oil burners here work just fine when you have a couple of
weeks in the teens...


Not here. It started hard regardless of temperature.

At my location, another reason for switching to the one line system
was that our diesel generator was tied into the same line. The last
tech cited the above as yet another reason for switching to single
lines. He put the generator on one line and the burner on the other.
The generator was setup for two lines, but fortunately nothing comes
out of the return line, so we stuck it in a 5 gallon pail and check it
occasionally.


Then its not set up at the pump for two lines, and I suggest that you either
remove the second line and cap the pump with the plug that should be there,
or get it set up for a dual line and get it ran out to the tank.
IF that pump fails, you are going to be vEEEEERy surprised at how fast a 5
gallon pail fills on that small line.


Actually, if the pump fails, nothing will happen as the pump is
required to pressurize the injectors on the diesel. The return line
is apparently connected to something which resembles a manifold (but
isn't)

The diesel is a Mitsubishi. Both the Mitsubishi manual and Gillette
who coupled it with their generator say to use two lines. Since
nothing comes out of one, I asked a diesel mechanic what was going on.
He told me that the way this diesel was setup, nothing NORMALLY will
come out the return line. However, as the machine ages, we might get
some blow by from the injectors into the "manifold" and that was what
the 2d line was for.

Since the second line is normally empty, it ruled out the way it was
setup - the feedline for the boiler was used as the return line for
the genset and vice versa. The problem was that the boiler could suck
air through the genset return line - you couldn't add a check valve.
I thought we could plumb it so that there was a common feed and return
to both, but the last burner tech (the guy who actually cured the hard
start) said that was unreliable. Why? I have no idea, but it
appeared that, according to him, to have both units on one line, we
had to run one more line and I didn't want to do that.

What we may do is put a 55 gallon drum in the room and let it fill
with a check valve. Then we can have both the feed and the return
from the generator in that. Naturally, I have monitors watching the
floor of the utility room for both oil and water - I don't know
anything about boilers, but as a retired EE, I do know a bit about
electronics.

--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com
  #13   Report Post  
john williamson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Riello Oil Burner Questions

Larry

Are the supply lines gravity fed (no lift), If you did not shut off the
oil valves at the tank will the oil flow freely at the furnace and
generator? What is the GMH of the generator?

John Williamson

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