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#1
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Plug Strips
Better yet, throw out any plug strips in your home which don't have built in
circuit breakers. OTOH, why didn't the klutzes read the labeling on that plug strip stating the strip's maximum rating, and if they couldn't read english or didn't understand what it meant, ASK someone? I guess that's too much to expect from much of the current generation, whether english is their first language or not, isn't it? (pun intended.) Jeff -- Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone to blame it on." indago wrote: There is a sad story in the Detroit News about a Hispanic family that was lost in a fire that didn't have to happen. The only one left in the family is the father, who was at work when this happened. His wife and five children were all lost to the fire. The family was using one of those plug strips that has four or five outlets on them and a short extension cord about 5 feet long. It was plugged into the wall and the stereo, TV entertainment center items, lamp, and window air-conditioner were all plugged into the outlets in the plug strip. All of the other items would have been OK, but to add the window air-conditioner to the plug strip, that has a cord probably capable of carrying 12 amps, was just too much for the plug strip and the cord got hot and melted the insulation and started a fire behind the couch, then up the wall, and trapped all inside and they died of smoke inhalation. The city was trying to fine a way to blame the owner of the house, who had a few other properties in Detroit rented out, but such carelessness was not the responsibility of the landlord. He didn't ask anyone to plug in a plug strip and then overload it beyond its capacity. Just because it has 5 outlets on it doesn't mean that you can plug in the toaster, microwave, refrigerator, electric frying pan, and coffeemaker all at the same time and expect everything to work OK. I wrote this here so that anyone who does have a similar plug strip in their home can examine what is plugged into it and make some calculations and put their hand on the cord to see if it is warm. The strip will handle things like a computer, printer, and other computer related peripherals, or a TV entertainment and stereo equipment center, but check periodically to see how the cord is doing. Don't let such a tragedy befall your family. |
#2
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Plug Strips
Power strips even for about $3 in Home Depot and Walmart
have the so important 15 amp circuit breaker. This fire was not possible if that circuit breaker kept tripping. However many plug-in surge protector are so overpriced as to not even include that circuit breaker. Power strip surge protectors take that $3 power strip, remove the circuit breaker, install some $0.10 components, then sell for $15 or $30. The only important component in a power strip is that circuit breaker - just for reasons described. Also being required to avoid similar problems from a different failure are arc fault circuit breakers. Some power strips don't fail from overloading. They fail from traffic on or damage to the wire. For example, a bed support crushes the wire causing a fire. So the question really is whether the power strip was overloaded or some other failure caused same power strip fire. Bottom line remains - the deaths were avoidable and unnecessary. Question is but how these deaths could have been avoided. indago wrote: There is a sad story in the Detroit News about a Hispanic family that was lost in a fire that didn't have to happen. The only one left in the family is the father, who was at work when this happened. His wife and five children were all lost to the fire. The family was using one of those plug strips that has four or five outlets on them and a short extension cord about 5 feet long. It was plugged into the wall and the stereo, TV entertainment center items, lamp, and window air-conditioner were all plugged into the outlets in the plug strip. All of the other items would have been OK, but to add the window air-conditioner to the plug strip, that has a cord probably capable of carrying 12 amps, was just too much for the plug strip and the cord got hot and melted the insulation and started a fire behind the couch, then up the wall, and trapped all inside and they died of smoke inhalation. The city was trying to fine a way to blame the owner of the house, who had a few other properties in Detroit rented out, but such carelessness was not the responsibility of the landlord. He didn't ask anyone to plug in a plug strip and then overload it beyond its capacity. Just because it has 5 outlets on it doesn't mean that you can plug in the toaster, microwave, refrigerator, electric frying pan, and coffeemaker all at the same time and expect everything to work OK. I wrote this here so that anyone who does have a similar plug strip in their home can examine what is plugged into it and make some calculations and put their hand on the cord to see if it is warm. The strip will handle things like a computer, printer, and other computer related peripherals, or a TV entertainment and stereo equipment center, but check periodically to see how the cord is doing. Don't let such a tragedy befall your family. |
#3
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Plug Strips
You are assuming knowledge not commonly available. Some
examples. Read thread in this newsgroup entitled "outlet box "grounded" to neutral 1940's ?" Amazing is that shorting 'neutral to outlet box' wiring did not immediately raise every distress flag. Surprising how many assume both ends of the neutral and ground copper wires are electrically same. So many assume wires are perfect conductors when in reality, even wires are electronic components. Things electrical must be dumb and simple so that if one item does not belong connected to another, then plugs will not mechanically match. Labels alone are not sufficient. Another classic example are surge protectors. They don't even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. However many have used junk science reasoning - word association. Surge protectors must be surge protection because words are similar But again, many cannot be bothered to learn basic fundamental. You see. Ignorance was not just found in that Hispanic family. Furthermore, many of those power strip surge protector that cost so much also don't have that circuit breaker. Technical ignorance is as widespread as the many who think Listerene does something useful - only because the TV propaganda is carefully crafted to be misleading. Jeff Wisnia wrote: Better yet, throw out any plug strips in your home which don't have built in circuit breakers. OTOH, why didn't the klutzes read the labeling on that plug strip stating the strip's maximum rating, and if they couldn't read english or didn't understand what it meant, ASK someone? I guess that's too much to expect from much of the current generation, whether english is their first language or not, isn't it? (pun intended.) |
#4
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Plug Strips
I saw a similiar thing a couple years ago, with a black lady whose son (the
apartment handyman) had tried to run an AC off a lamp cord extension. I got called out cause the AC wasn't working. And so I went to the store and bought them a bigger cord. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.org .. .. "indago" wrote in message ... There is a sad story in the Detroit News about a Hispanic family that was lost in a fire that didn't have to happen. The only one left in the family is the father, who was at work when this happened. His wife and five children were all lost to the fire. The family was using one of those plug strips that has four or five outlets on them and a short extension cord about 5 feet long. It was plugged into the wall and the stereo, TV entertainment center items, lamp, and window air-conditioner were all plugged into the outlets in the plug strip. All of the other items would have been OK, but to add the window air-conditioner to the plug strip, that has a cord probably capable of carrying 12 amps, was just too much for the plug strip and the cord got hot and melted the insulation and started a fire behind the couch, then up the wall, and trapped all inside and they died of smoke inhalation. The city was trying to fine a way to blame the owner of the house, who had a few other properties in Detroit rented out, but such carelessness was not the responsibility of the landlord. He didn't ask anyone to plug in a plug strip and then overload it beyond its capacity. Just because it has 5 outlets on it doesn't mean that you can plug in the toaster, microwave, refrigerator, electric frying pan, and coffeemaker all at the same time and expect everything to work OK. I wrote this here so that anyone who does have a similar plug strip in their home can examine what is plugged into it and make some calculations and put their hand on the cord to see if it is warm. The strip will handle things like a computer, printer, and other computer related peripherals, or a TV entertainment and stereo equipment center, but check periodically to see how the cord is doing. Don't let such a tragedy befall your family. |
#5
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Plug Strips
w_tom wrote:
You are assuming knowledge not commonly available. Some examples. Read thread in this newsgroup entitled "outlet box "grounded" to neutral 1940's ?" Amazing is that shorting 'neutral to outlet box' wiring did not immediately raise every distress flag. Surprising how many assume both ends of the neutral and ground copper wires are electrically same. So many assume wires are perfect conductors when in reality, even wires are electronic components. Things electrical must be dumb and simple so that if one item does not belong connected to another, then plugs will not mechanically match. Labels alone are not sufficient. Another classic example are surge protectors. They don't even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. However many have used junk science reasoning - word association. Surge protectors must be surge protection because words are similar But again, many cannot be bothered to learn basic fundamental. You see. Ignorance was not just found in that Hispanic family. Furthermore, many of those power strip surge protector that cost so much also don't have that circuit breaker. Technical ignorance is as widespread as the many who think Listerene does something useful - only because the TV propaganda is carefully crafted to be misleading. Jeff Wisnia wrote: Better yet, throw out any plug strips in your home which don't have built in circuit breakers. OTOH, why didn't the klutzes read the labeling on that plug strip stating the strip's maximum rating, and if they couldn't read english or didn't understand what it meant, ASK someone? I guess that's too much to expect from much of the current generation, whether english is their first language or not, isn't it? (pun intended.) I agree with you completely. It was just cynical wishful thinking on my part to expect many people, most of which have probably heard the terms "electrical fire" or "electrocuted" more than once in their lives, to stop and think first before sticking their plugs in whatever hole is handy. But then, common sense isn't all that common, is it? At this point, even though I'm fervently against "big government" protecting people from their own stupidity, I'd agree with a federal law barring the sale of those non circuit breaker protected plug strips. Course, then we'd have to deal with some fool sticking two triple tap expanders into the cube tap end of a 10 amp extension cord, wouldn't we? Maybe Darwinism will eventually improve upon the situation. Jeff -- Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "If you can keep smiling when things go wrong, you've thought of someone to place the blame on." |
#6
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Plug Strips
How the economy works. Industry is relatively free of
regulation until MBAs and other 'only we top management are important' types take over. Then we have events such as 'burn them alive' Pinto, 'tip over' Corvair, Beverly Hills Supper Club fire, Three Mile Island, and Firestone tires (twice!). Then government must step in and regulate the hell out of them. Problem is that once regulation is applied, it must remain. For example, we must make the accounting industry top management personally responsible for the integrity of their audits - because they (especially Arthur Andersen) intentionally committed fraud and changed their rule to make fraud easier. Would not longer matter that accounting industry changes. Once regulations are applied, they must remain - according to history. We still don't hold the accounting industry responsible and still let them mostly make their own rules. IOW where we really need regulation, legalized bribes (called campaign contributions) quickly undermined the task. However most electrical standards are not big government. UL, IEEE, ISO, CBEM, NEC, etc are private, non-profit standards organizations. Even with FCC regulations, the trend is to constantly avoid regulating what could be accomplished by non-government standards organizations. In this case, the arc fault breaker - a UL standard - might have significantly helped avoid the fire. That has only been required for less than 1 year. Jeff Wisnia wrote: I agree with you completely. It was just cynical wishful thinking on my part to expect many people, most of which have probably heard the terms "electrical fire" or "electrocuted" more than once in their lives, to stop and think first before sticking their plugs in whatever hole is handy. But then, common sense isn't all that common, is it? At this point, even though I'm fervently against "big government" protecting people from their own stupidity, I'd agree with a federal law barring the sale of those non circuit breaker protected plug strips. Course, then we'd have to deal with some fool sticking two triple tap expanders into the cube tap end of a 10 amp extension cord, wouldn't we? Maybe Darwinism will eventually improve upon the situation. |
#7
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Plug Strips
Fraser wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message ... Power strips even for about $3 in Home Depot and Walmart have the so important 15 amp circuit breaker. This fire was not possible if that circuit breaker kept tripping. Out of curosity, are you comparing these ones with others with no protection whatsoever? I've got one strip that has an intregral breaker for my PC setup, however this and all the others I have also have two normal fuses in them. The first fuse is the one found in any standard UK plug, and the second fuse is in the strip itself. Both are 13 amps. Do these provide some element of protection that your US strips don't commonly have? I'd always assumed that they should cover against overheating. There is no fuse in most US plugs, they are in theory protected by a breaker some way up the line. I vastly prefer the UK plug, generally the ability to pull ~3Kw through it safely, on a fused plug outweighs the rather larger size. It can be rather silly for devices smaller than the plug though, and it sucks for portable devices. -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- 'Where subtlety fails, we must simply make do with cream pies' -- David Brin |
#8
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Plug Strips
UK and US have different Mx load and wire sizes. For
example the UK standard outlet can provide 32 amps. But appliance wire is not capable of conducting that much current without fire. So UK uses fuses in plugs. US uses 15 and 20 amp circuits. Power cords will conduct 20 amps inefficiently. But either the standard power cord will conduct up to 15 amps, or will short circuit - temporarily conducting too much current and tripping the circuit breaker. US power cords don't require fused plugs. This should be obvious to UK and US readers. A circuit breaker inside a US power strip adds an important and added layer of protection. All power strips should contain the 15 amps circuit breaker; which is why they are acceptable on a standard 20 amp circuit. I am not entirely sure that this fire (in the original post) is a result of too many appliances on one power strip. Insufficient information probably because information is filtered by a technically naive news reporter. Other facts can contribute to fire danger. But the lurker should be learning something. Any power strip (in America), including surge protector power strips, must have the 15 amp circuit breaker - for human safety. In some jurisdictions such as Chicago and NYC, power strips are illegal. If power strip was required, then an electrician must be hired to install sufficient receptacles in the wall. A requirement justified by experience in those jurisdictions. UK system provides no significant safety advantage AND has other downsides that can increase possiblity of failure. For those with too much nationalistic fervor, that sentence does not say one system is superior to another. Both systems (UK and US) have advantages and disadvantages. For the original problem, either of two factors might have made those deaths unnecessary - a 15 amp circuit breaker in the power strip OR arc fault circuit breaker. The original poster does not provide sufficient information to say better which would have saved lives. Just another example of why posts without massive details can result in incorrect conclusions. Ian Stirling wrote: There is no fuse in most US plugs, they are in theory protected by a breaker some way up the line. I vastly prefer the UK plug, generally the ability to pull ~3Kw through it safely, on a fused plug outweighs the rather larger size. It can be rather silly for devices smaller than the plug though, and it sucks for portable devices. |
#9
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Plug Strips
The Corvair was a good car. I owned 2 of them.
The first was a 63 with swing-axle rear suspension. It would outcorner a Triumph Spitfire. People just didn't know how to drive a vehicle with oversteer. w_tom wrote: How the economy works. Industry is relatively free of regulation until MBAs and other 'only we top management are important' types take over. Then we have events such as 'burn them alive' Pinto, 'tip over' Corvair, Beverly Hills Supper Club fire, Three Mile Island, and Firestone tires (twice!). Then government must step in and regulate the hell out of them. Problem is that once regulation is applied, it must remain. For example, we must make the accounting industry top management personally responsible for the integrity of their audits - because they (especially Arthur Andersen) intentionally committed fraud and changed their rule to make fraud easier. Would not longer matter that accounting industry changes. Once regulations are applied, they must remain - according to history. We still don't hold the accounting industry responsible and still let them mostly make their own rules. IOW where we really need regulation, legalized bribes (called campaign contributions) quickly undermined the task. However most electrical standards are not big government. UL, IEEE, ISO, CBEM, NEC, etc are private, non-profit standards organizations. Even with FCC regulations, the trend is to constantly avoid regulating what could be accomplished by non-government standards organizations. In this case, the arc fault breaker - a UL standard - might have significantly helped avoid the fire. That has only been required for less than 1 year. Jeff Wisnia wrote: I agree with you completely. It was just cynical wishful thinking on my part to expect many people, most of which have probably heard the terms "electrical fire" or "electrocuted" more than once in their lives, to stop and think first before sticking their plugs in whatever hole is handy. But then, common sense isn't all that common, is it? At this point, even though I'm fervently against "big government" protecting people from their own stupidity, I'd agree with a federal law barring the sale of those non circuit breaker protected plug strips. Course, then we'd have to deal with some fool sticking two triple tap expanders into the cube tap end of a 10 amp extension cord, wouldn't we? Maybe Darwinism will eventually improve upon the situation. |
#11
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Plug Strips
Hey Stormin I posted a question at alt hvac the other day , I thought
it was a good multi part question with different thoughts , but all I got was slammed ,and fried, and called a liar by cbvac, oh well screw that group. and cb, alt. bldg. construction is ok, but they fry there to, and now that Ara is in hiding AHR is not to bad. If you talk about converters , give watts and all details of voltage, its new to everyone and is scarry. It may work but you have load, surge, and voltage issues, plus I think you need a speed controller on the vehicle for proper alternator output. and first you have to know draw of equipment to be powered. A main short , I would think would ark. Unless you have experiance otherwise. Well have a nice evening and screw the flamers. But be more detailed, include facts and figures, your answers are not understood and can be shot down easily. Have a good evening. m.m.r |
#12
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Plug Strips
The suspension patent stated what could happen when the
suspension was 'tested'. That is not a driver failure to do what all other cars must do without failure. Corvair suspension failure that even the engineer's patent predicted if... One could claim that all drivers should know not to corner hard; therefore it is the driver's fault for doing what is not a problem on any other car. But if the Corvair fails and kills people when doing what all other cars do normally, AND when the engineer says in advance this was a problem; then instead we blame the victim? Where does did logic come from? If Corvair required special driver's training, then why did GM not provide that training standard with every Corvair? That was the mentality back then. Hundreds were killed when the Beverly Hills Supper Club caught fire outside of Cincinnati. The KY Governor's report also blamed the victims for their own death. Just as silly. The Corvair was not an 18 wheeler that requires special handling. But then even an 18 wheeler does not put a known defective design in its suspension - only because a cost controller is trying to save $2. People killed only because the stabilizer bar costs an excessive $2! Should all drivers receive special training in case one might drive a Corvair - so that GM can save $2 on a stabilizer bar? The reason that Corvair suspension would fail - as the patent said it would - is because cost controllers feared to spend money on a stabilizer bar that the patent said was necessary. BTW, you have it all wrong. Once the rear wheel buckled under, nothing using a gas pedal was going to save the vehicle from overturning. That failure was noted in the patent. Corvair killed because top management more feared the cost of a stabilizer bar than making the car drive like every other car. It is a fear of spending money and a fear of listening to those who come from where the work gets done that causes regulations. How many more astronauts will we need murder before that same top management problem is fixed - either by holding top management responsible (which we never do) or by making more regulations? At what point did taking toxic arsenic out of playground wood make it boring? Why did it finally require regulation to do what common sense says was danagerous? Did those playground manufacturers fear kids would be bored by wood without arsenic? Cosmopolite wrote: I disagree. The operation of any device has everything to do with the operator. The average American driver was used to the handling characteristics of front heavy vehicles which understeer. When a front heavy, understeering vehicle exceeds it's cornering capability, the front wheels loose traction and the vehicle goes straight instead of cornering. ( like trying to turn on ice ) The solution to this is to take your foot OFF the gas pedal. When a rear heavy vehicle exceeds it's cornering capability, the swing around. ( like burning a doughnut ) The solution to this is to give it MORE gas. This straightens the vehicle out. ( within limits, of course ) If you take your foot OFF the gas under these conditions, the vehicle will spin around, out of control. The early ( 1960-1964 ) swing axle Corvair received the stabilizer bar in 1964. The later ( 1965-1969 ) Corvair had a totally different suspension system, similar to the Corvette and Jaguar. This suspension did not produce camber changes ( wheel jack-up ) like the early model. While I agree that there have to be safety regulations ( products and behavior ), this has to be done very carefully. We are currently having a problem with safe playground design. The new playground equipment is a lot safer than the old, but the children find it very boring. If a society demands ever safer and secure lifestyles, one day it will find itself imprisioned. Life is and has always been risky. Only living organisms get hurt, dead ones do not. |
#13
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Plug Strips
I am in no way trying to defend GM, or any other corp. for their
policies. I just wanted to state that from my personal experience of driving two of them, that I think they were a good car. I occasionally street raced ( bad thing to do ) my 63 around traffic circles at 2 in the morning and never had a problem with the rear end jacking up. I mentioned the Spitfire because that incident stands out in my memory for the fact that it was sold as a sports car ( with a sports car suspension ? ) while the Corvair was sold as a sporty sedan. If you look at traffic accident statistics, you will conclude that the overwhelming majority of them are caused by driver error. I do believe that people should go to skid-school etc. and learn how to drive properly. Poor design and corporate greed notwithstanding, I believe that users of a product are responsible for finding out what that product is and how to use it safely. SUV's are a prime example. Every winter, the body shops in our area get a disproportionate number of SUV's for collision repair. The drivers seem to think that because 4 wheel drive gives them better acceleration on slippery roads, it will also give them greater stopping power. Too many people are ducking their personal responsibility ( like GM, in the Corvair case ) and only want to blame others when things go wrong. A million dollars for spilling hot coffee on yourself while driving ? Don't drink and drive! If I spill something on myself I figure it was my own doing. As far as the playground issue is concerned, It does not involve wood preservatives, but the design of steel and plastic equipment so that no child could ever get hurt no matter what they do. Many of the kids that were interviewed as to why they stopped going to the new playground said that the new equipment was boring and did not offer them any challenges. w_tom wrote: The suspension patent stated what could happen when the suspension was 'tested'. That is not a driver failure to do what all other cars must do without failure. Corvair suspension failure that even the engineer's patent predicted if... One could claim that all drivers should know not to corner hard; therefore it is the driver's fault for doing what is not a problem on any other car. But if the Corvair fails and kills people when doing what all other cars do normally, AND when the engineer says in advance this was a problem; then instead we blame the victim? Where does did logic come from? If Corvair required special driver's training, then why did GM not provide that training standard with every Corvair? That was the mentality back then. Hundreds were killed when the Beverly Hills Supper Club caught fire outside of Cincinnati. The KY Governor's report also blamed the victims for their own death. Just as silly. The Corvair was not an 18 wheeler that requires special handling. But then even an 18 wheeler does not put a known defective design in its suspension - only because a cost controller is trying to save $2. People killed only because the stabilizer bar costs an excessive $2! Should all drivers receive special training in case one might drive a Corvair - so that GM can save $2 on a stabilizer bar? The reason that Corvair suspension would fail - as the patent said it would - is because cost controllers feared to spend money on a stabilizer bar that the patent said was necessary. BTW, you have it all wrong. Once the rear wheel buckled under, nothing using a gas pedal was going to save the vehicle from overturning. That failure was noted in the patent. Corvair killed because top management more feared the cost of a stabilizer bar than making the car drive like every other car. It is a fear of spending money and a fear of listening to those who come from where the work gets done that causes regulations. How many more astronauts will we need murder before that same top management problem is fixed - either by holding top management responsible (which we never do) or by making more regulations? At what point did taking toxic arsenic out of playground wood make it boring? Why did it finally require regulation to do what common sense says was danagerous? Did those playground manufacturers fear kids would be bored by wood without arsenic? Cosmopolite wrote: I disagree. The operation of any device has everything to do with the operator. The average American driver was used to the handling characteristics of front heavy vehicles which understeer. When a front heavy, understeering vehicle exceeds it's cornering capability, the front wheels loose traction and the vehicle goes straight instead of cornering. ( like trying to turn on ice ) The solution to this is to take your foot OFF the gas pedal. When a rear heavy vehicle exceeds it's cornering capability, the swing around. ( like burning a doughnut ) The solution to this is to give it MORE gas. This straightens the vehicle out. ( within limits, of course ) If you take your foot OFF the gas under these conditions, the vehicle will spin around, out of control. The early ( 1960-1964 ) swing axle Corvair received the stabilizer bar in 1964. The later ( 1965-1969 ) Corvair had a totally different suspension system, similar to the Corvette and Jaguar. This suspension did not produce camber changes ( wheel jack-up ) like the early model. While I agree that there have to be safety regulations ( products and behavior ), this has to be done very carefully. We are currently having a problem with safe playground design. The new playground equipment is a lot safer than the old, but the children find it very boring. If a society demands ever safer and secure lifestyles, one day it will find itself imprisioned. Life is and has always been risky. Only living organisms get hurt, dead ones do not. |
#14
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Plug Strips
When Corvair was first introduced (before the prototype was
demonstrated), it was promoted as GM's competition to Porsche. Back then, Porsche was said to be worried what this big monolith would produce to put Porsche out of business. Porsche is said to have rushed a new model in production as a result. Hindsight makes all those news stories humorous. They were not considered comic stories back then. It is a sad story that the President of Chevy had to lose his job in order to get that stabilizer bar. Corporate histories are full of such types. Boisoloy told the truth about Challenger to the Roger's commission. He could never get an engineering job again. In the meantime, the Columbia investigation committee only confirms what was long obvious. Management was the reasons for both disasters; they were not accidents. It cost Boisoloy his future without fixing the problem called NASA. We don't protect whistle blowers to our own detriment. What corporate bean counter was even considered for third degree murder in the death of Corvair occupants - so that he could save $2 per car. Remember the Pinto? It exploded on testing before any were sold. That part to stop gas tank explosions (and passengers burning alive) cost $4. Ironically the State of IN Pinto trial is reported on the same page deep inside the NY Times next to a report on the Beverly Hills Supper Club disaster - where the victims were blamed by the KY Governor for their own deaths. McDonald's coffee? Did you read the details? McDonalds had hundreds of previous cases because the coffee was excessively hot. Doctor went to emergency room expecting to treat some minor burns. Instead he found burns deep to the leg bone. Massive difference between coffee at 130 degrees and coffee in excess of 190 degrees. The latter is considered life threatening. And McDonalds had documented hundreds of previous cases - and still did not lower the temperature of coffee to below 140 degrees. Those 50 degrees are a massive difference. Amazing how details of an unresponsive McDonalds are forgotten. McDonalds was also arrogant in that trial. They got the punishment they deserved because they could not respond to hundreds of previous events. Finally after McDonalds lowered the temperature of coffee, they started selling coffee that was drinkable. It fixed the bad taste because coffee was being brewed at too high temperature - in violation of coffee industry guidelines for how to best brew coffee. Everyone won because of that lawsuit. I remember McDonalds coffee back then. It always gave a headache because it was improperly brewed. Cosmopolite wrote: I am in no way trying to defend GM, or any other corp. for their policies. I just wanted to state that from my personal experience of driving two of them, that I think they were a good car. I occasionally street raced ( bad thing to do ) my 63 around traffic circles at 2 in the morning and never had a problem with the rear end jacking up. I mentioned the Spitfire because that incident stands out in my memory for the fact that it was sold as a sports car ( with a sports car suspension ? ) while the Corvair was sold as a sporty sedan. If you look at traffic accident statistics, you will conclude that the overwhelming majority of them are caused by driver error. I do believe that people should go to skid-school etc. and learn how to drive properly. Poor design and corporate greed notwithstanding, I believe that users of a product are responsible for finding out what that product is and how to use it safely. SUV's are a prime example. Every winter, the body shops in our area get a disproportionate number of SUV's for collision repair. The drivers seem to think that because 4 wheel drive gives them better acceleration on slippery roads, it will also give them greater stopping power. Too many people are ducking their personal responsibility ( like GM, in the Corvair case ) and only want to blame others when things go wrong. A million dollars for spilling hot coffee on yourself while driving ? Don't drink and drive! If I spill something on myself I figure it was my own doing. As far as the playground issue is concerned, It does not involve wood preservatives, but the design of steel and plastic equipment so that no child could ever get hurt no matter what they do. Many of the kids that were interviewed as to why they stopped going to the new playground said that the new equipment was boring and did not offer them any challenges. |
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