Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

Better yet, throw out any plug strips in your home which don't have built in
circuit breakers.

OTOH, why didn't the klutzes read the labeling on that plug strip stating the
strip's maximum rating, and if they couldn't read english or didn't understand
what it meant, ASK someone? I guess that's too much to expect from much of the
current generation, whether english is their first language or not, isn't it?
(pun intended.)

Jeff
--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone to
blame it on."


indago wrote:

There is a sad story in the Detroit News about a Hispanic family that was
lost in a fire that didn't have to happen. The only one left in the family
is the father, who was at work when this happened. His wife and five
children were all lost to the fire. The family was using one of those plug
strips that has four or five outlets on them and a short extension cord
about 5 feet long. It was plugged into the wall and the stereo, TV
entertainment center items, lamp, and window air-conditioner were all
plugged into the outlets in the plug strip. All of the other items would
have been OK, but to add the window air-conditioner to the plug strip, that
has a cord probably capable of carrying 12 amps, was just too much for the
plug strip and the cord got hot and melted the insulation and started a fire
behind the couch, then up the wall, and trapped all inside and they died of
smoke inhalation. The city was trying to fine a way to blame the owner of
the house, who had a few other properties in Detroit rented out, but such
carelessness was not the responsibility of the landlord. He didn't ask
anyone to plug in a plug strip and then overload it beyond its capacity.
Just because it has 5 outlets on it doesn't mean that you can plug in the
toaster, microwave, refrigerator, electric frying pan, and coffeemaker all
at the same time and expect everything to work OK.

I wrote this here so that anyone who does have a similar plug strip in their
home can examine what is plugged into it and make some calculations and put
their hand on the cord to see if it is warm. The strip will handle things
like a computer, printer, and other computer related peripherals, or a TV
entertainment and stereo equipment center, but check periodically to see how
the cord is doing. Don't let such a tragedy befall your family.





  #2   Report Post  
w_tom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

Power strips even for about $3 in Home Depot and Walmart
have the so important 15 amp circuit breaker. This fire was
not possible if that circuit breaker kept tripping.

However many plug-in surge protector are so overpriced as to
not even include that circuit breaker. Power strip surge
protectors take that $3 power strip, remove the circuit
breaker, install some $0.10 components, then sell for $15 or
$30. The only important component in a power strip is that
circuit breaker - just for reasons described.

Also being required to avoid similar problems from a
different failure are arc fault circuit breakers. Some power
strips don't fail from overloading. They fail from traffic on
or damage to the wire. For example, a bed support crushes the
wire causing a fire. So the question really is whether the
power strip was overloaded or some other failure caused same
power strip fire.

Bottom line remains - the deaths were avoidable and
unnecessary. Question is but how these deaths could have been
avoided.

indago wrote:
There is a sad story in the Detroit News about a Hispanic family that was
lost in a fire that didn't have to happen. The only one left in the family
is the father, who was at work when this happened. His wife and five
children were all lost to the fire. The family was using one of those plug
strips that has four or five outlets on them and a short extension cord
about 5 feet long. It was plugged into the wall and the stereo, TV
entertainment center items, lamp, and window air-conditioner were all
plugged into the outlets in the plug strip. All of the other items would
have been OK, but to add the window air-conditioner to the plug strip, that
has a cord probably capable of carrying 12 amps, was just too much for the
plug strip and the cord got hot and melted the insulation and started a fire
behind the couch, then up the wall, and trapped all inside and they died of
smoke inhalation. The city was trying to fine a way to blame the owner of
the house, who had a few other properties in Detroit rented out, but such
carelessness was not the responsibility of the landlord. He didn't ask
anyone to plug in a plug strip and then overload it beyond its capacity.
Just because it has 5 outlets on it doesn't mean that you can plug in the
toaster, microwave, refrigerator, electric frying pan, and coffeemaker all
at the same time and expect everything to work OK.

I wrote this here so that anyone who does have a similar plug strip in their
home can examine what is plugged into it and make some calculations and put
their hand on the cord to see if it is warm. The strip will handle things
like a computer, printer, and other computer related peripherals, or a TV
entertainment and stereo equipment center, but check periodically to see how
the cord is doing. Don't let such a tragedy befall your family.

  #3   Report Post  
w_tom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

You are assuming knowledge not commonly available. Some
examples. Read thread in this newsgroup entitled "outlet box
"grounded" to neutral 1940's ?" Amazing is that shorting
'neutral to outlet box' wiring did not immediately raise every
distress flag. Surprising how many assume both ends of the
neutral and ground copper wires are electrically same. So
many assume wires are perfect conductors when in reality, even
wires are electronic components. Things electrical must be
dumb and simple so that if one item does not belong connected
to another, then plugs will not mechanically match. Labels
alone are not sufficient.

Another classic example are surge protectors. They don't
even claim to protect from typically destructive surges.
However many have used junk science reasoning - word
association. Surge protectors must be surge protection
because words are similar But again, many cannot be bothered
to learn basic fundamental. You see. Ignorance was not just
found in that Hispanic family. Furthermore, many of those
power strip surge protector that cost so much also don't have
that circuit breaker.

Technical ignorance is as widespread as the many who think
Listerene does something useful - only because the TV
propaganda is carefully crafted to be misleading.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Better yet, throw out any plug strips in your home which don't
have built in circuit breakers.

OTOH, why didn't the klutzes read the labeling on that plug strip
stating the strip's maximum rating, and if they couldn't read
english or didn't understand what it meant, ASK someone? I guess
that's too much to expect from much of the current generation,
whether english is their first language or not, isn't it?
(pun intended.)

  #4   Report Post  
Stormin Mormon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

I saw a similiar thing a couple years ago, with a black lady whose son (the
apartment handyman) had tried to run an AC off a lamp cord extension. I got
called out cause the AC wasn't working. And so I went to the store and
bought them a bigger cord.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.org
..
..

"indago" wrote in message
...
There is a sad story in the Detroit News about a Hispanic family that was
lost in a fire that didn't have to happen. The only one left in the family
is the father, who was at work when this happened. His wife and five
children were all lost to the fire. The family was using one of those plug
strips that has four or five outlets on them and a short extension cord
about 5 feet long. It was plugged into the wall and the stereo, TV
entertainment center items, lamp, and window air-conditioner were all
plugged into the outlets in the plug strip. All of the other items would
have been OK, but to add the window air-conditioner to the plug strip, that
has a cord probably capable of carrying 12 amps, was just too much for the
plug strip and the cord got hot and melted the insulation and started a fire
behind the couch, then up the wall, and trapped all inside and they died of
smoke inhalation. The city was trying to fine a way to blame the owner of
the house, who had a few other properties in Detroit rented out, but such
carelessness was not the responsibility of the landlord. He didn't ask
anyone to plug in a plug strip and then overload it beyond its capacity.
Just because it has 5 outlets on it doesn't mean that you can plug in the
toaster, microwave, refrigerator, electric frying pan, and coffeemaker all
at the same time and expect everything to work OK.

I wrote this here so that anyone who does have a similar plug strip in their
home can examine what is plugged into it and make some calculations and put
their hand on the cord to see if it is warm. The strip will handle things
like a computer, printer, and other computer related peripherals, or a TV
entertainment and stereo equipment center, but check periodically to see how
the cord is doing. Don't let such a tragedy befall your family.


  #5   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

w_tom wrote:

You are assuming knowledge not commonly available. Some
examples. Read thread in this newsgroup entitled "outlet box
"grounded" to neutral 1940's ?" Amazing is that shorting
'neutral to outlet box' wiring did not immediately raise every
distress flag. Surprising how many assume both ends of the
neutral and ground copper wires are electrically same. So
many assume wires are perfect conductors when in reality, even
wires are electronic components. Things electrical must be
dumb and simple so that if one item does not belong connected
to another, then plugs will not mechanically match. Labels
alone are not sufficient.

Another classic example are surge protectors. They don't
even claim to protect from typically destructive surges.
However many have used junk science reasoning - word
association. Surge protectors must be surge protection
because words are similar But again, many cannot be bothered
to learn basic fundamental. You see. Ignorance was not just
found in that Hispanic family. Furthermore, many of those
power strip surge protector that cost so much also don't have
that circuit breaker.

Technical ignorance is as widespread as the many who think
Listerene does something useful - only because the TV
propaganda is carefully crafted to be misleading.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Better yet, throw out any plug strips in your home which don't
have built in circuit breakers.

OTOH, why didn't the klutzes read the labeling on that plug strip
stating the strip's maximum rating, and if they couldn't read
english or didn't understand what it meant, ASK someone? I guess
that's too much to expect from much of the current generation,
whether english is their first language or not, isn't it?
(pun intended.)


I agree with you completely. It was just cynical wishful thinking on my
part to expect many people, most of which have probably heard the terms
"electrical fire" or "electrocuted" more than once in their lives, to
stop and think first before sticking their plugs in whatever hole is
handy. But then, common sense isn't all that common, is it?

At this point, even though I'm fervently against "big government"
protecting people from their own stupidity, I'd agree with a federal law
barring the sale of those non circuit breaker protected plug strips.
Course, then we'd have to deal with some fool sticking two triple tap
expanders into the cube tap end of a 10 amp extension cord, wouldn't we?

Maybe Darwinism will eventually improve upon the situation.

Jeff
--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can keep smiling when things go wrong, you've thought of someone
to place the blame on."




  #6   Report Post  
w_tom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

How the economy works. Industry is relatively free of
regulation until MBAs and other 'only we top management are
important' types take over. Then we have events such as 'burn
them alive' Pinto, 'tip over' Corvair, Beverly Hills Supper
Club fire, Three Mile Island, and Firestone tires (twice!).
Then government must step in and regulate the hell out of
them. Problem is that once regulation is applied, it must
remain. For example, we must make the accounting industry top
management personally responsible for the integrity of their
audits - because they (especially Arthur Andersen)
intentionally committed fraud and changed their rule to make
fraud easier. Would not longer matter that accounting
industry changes. Once regulations are applied, they must
remain - according to history.

We still don't hold the accounting industry responsible and
still let them mostly make their own rules. IOW where we
really need regulation, legalized bribes (called campaign
contributions) quickly undermined the task.

However most electrical standards are not big government.
UL, IEEE, ISO, CBEM, NEC, etc are private, non-profit
standards organizations. Even with FCC regulations, the trend
is to constantly avoid regulating what could be accomplished
by non-government standards organizations.

In this case, the arc fault breaker - a UL standard - might
have significantly helped avoid the fire. That has only been
required for less than 1 year.


Jeff Wisnia wrote:
I agree with you completely. It was just cynical wishful thinking on my
part to expect many people, most of which have probably heard the terms
"electrical fire" or "electrocuted" more than once in their lives, to
stop and think first before sticking their plugs in whatever hole is
handy. But then, common sense isn't all that common, is it?

At this point, even though I'm fervently against "big government"
protecting people from their own stupidity, I'd agree with a federal law
barring the sale of those non circuit breaker protected plug strips.
Course, then we'd have to deal with some fool sticking two triple tap
expanders into the cube tap end of a 10 amp extension cord, wouldn't we?

Maybe Darwinism will eventually improve upon the situation.

  #7   Report Post  
Ian Stirling
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

Fraser wrote:

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Power strips even for about $3 in Home Depot and Walmart
have the so important 15 amp circuit breaker. This fire was
not possible if that circuit breaker kept tripping.


Out of curosity, are you comparing these ones with others with no protection
whatsoever? I've got one strip that has an intregral breaker for my PC
setup, however this and all the others I have also have two normal fuses in
them. The first fuse is the one found in any standard UK plug, and the
second fuse is in the strip itself. Both are 13 amps.

Do these provide some element of protection that your US strips don't
commonly have? I'd always assumed that they should cover against
overheating.


There is no fuse in most US plugs, they are in theory protected by a breaker
some way up the line.

I vastly prefer the UK plug, generally the ability to pull ~3Kw through it
safely, on a fused plug outweighs the rather larger size.
It can be rather silly for devices smaller than the plug though, and it
sucks for portable devices.

--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
'Where subtlety fails, we must simply make do with cream pies' -- David Brin
  #8   Report Post  
w_tom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

UK and US have different Mx load and wire sizes. For
example the UK standard outlet can provide 32 amps. But
appliance wire is not capable of conducting that much current
without fire. So UK uses fuses in plugs. US uses 15 and 20
amp circuits. Power cords will conduct 20 amps
inefficiently. But either the standard power cord will
conduct up to 15 amps, or will short circuit - temporarily
conducting too much current and tripping the circuit breaker.
US power cords don't require fused plugs. This should be
obvious to UK and US readers.

A circuit breaker inside a US power strip adds an important
and added layer of protection. All power strips should
contain the 15 amps circuit breaker; which is why they are
acceptable on a standard 20 amp circuit.

I am not entirely sure that this fire (in the original post)
is a result of too many appliances on one power strip.
Insufficient information probably because information is
filtered by a technically naive news reporter. Other facts
can contribute to fire danger. But the lurker should be
learning something. Any power strip (in America), including
surge protector power strips, must have the 15 amp circuit
breaker - for human safety. In some jurisdictions such as
Chicago and NYC, power strips are illegal. If power strip was
required, then an electrician must be hired to install
sufficient receptacles in the wall. A requirement justified
by experience in those jurisdictions.

UK system provides no significant safety advantage AND has
other downsides that can increase possiblity of failure. For
those with too much nationalistic fervor, that sentence does
not say one system is superior to another. Both systems (UK
and US) have advantages and disadvantages. For the original
problem, either of two factors might have made those deaths
unnecessary - a 15 amp circuit breaker in the power strip OR
arc fault circuit breaker. The original poster does not
provide sufficient information to say better which would have
saved lives. Just another example of why posts without
massive details can result in incorrect conclusions.


Ian Stirling wrote:
There is no fuse in most US plugs, they are in theory protected by
a breaker some way up the line.

I vastly prefer the UK plug, generally the ability to pull ~3Kw
through it safely, on a fused plug outweighs the rather larger
size. It can be rather silly for devices smaller than the plug
though, and it sucks for portable devices.

  #9   Report Post  
Cosmopolite
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

The Corvair was a good car. I owned 2 of them.
The first was a 63 with swing-axle rear suspension. It
would outcorner a Triumph Spitfire.
People just didn't know how to drive a vehicle
with oversteer.

w_tom wrote:

How the economy works. Industry is relatively free of
regulation until MBAs and other 'only we top management are
important' types take over. Then we have events such as 'burn
them alive' Pinto, 'tip over' Corvair, Beverly Hills Supper
Club fire, Three Mile Island, and Firestone tires (twice!).
Then government must step in and regulate the hell out of
them. Problem is that once regulation is applied, it must
remain. For example, we must make the accounting industry top
management personally responsible for the integrity of their
audits - because they (especially Arthur Andersen)
intentionally committed fraud and changed their rule to make
fraud easier. Would not longer matter that accounting
industry changes. Once regulations are applied, they must
remain - according to history.

We still don't hold the accounting industry responsible and
still let them mostly make their own rules. IOW where we
really need regulation, legalized bribes (called campaign
contributions) quickly undermined the task.

However most electrical standards are not big government.
UL, IEEE, ISO, CBEM, NEC, etc are private, non-profit
standards organizations. Even with FCC regulations, the trend
is to constantly avoid regulating what could be accomplished
by non-government standards organizations.

In this case, the arc fault breaker - a UL standard - might
have significantly helped avoid the fire. That has only been
required for less than 1 year.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
I agree with you completely. It was just cynical wishful thinking on my
part to expect many people, most of which have probably heard the terms
"electrical fire" or "electrocuted" more than once in their lives, to
stop and think first before sticking their plugs in whatever hole is
handy. But then, common sense isn't all that common, is it?

At this point, even though I'm fervently against "big government"
protecting people from their own stupidity, I'd agree with a federal law
barring the sale of those non circuit breaker protected plug strips.
Course, then we'd have to deal with some fool sticking two triple tap
expanders into the cube tap end of a 10 amp extension cord, wouldn't we?

Maybe Darwinism will eventually improve upon the situation.


  #11   Report Post  
mark Ransley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

Hey Stormin I posted a question at alt hvac the other day , I thought
it was a good multi part question with different thoughts , but all I
got was slammed ,and fried, and called a liar by cbvac, oh well screw
that group. and cb, alt. bldg. construction is ok, but they fry
there to, and now that Ara is in hiding AHR is not to bad. If you talk
about converters , give watts and all details of voltage, its new to
everyone and is scarry. It may work but you have load, surge, and
voltage issues, plus I think you need a speed controller on the vehicle
for proper alternator output. and first you have to know draw of
equipment to be powered.
A main short , I would think would ark. Unless you have experiance
otherwise. Well have a nice evening and screw the flamers. But be
more detailed, include facts and figures, your answers are not
understood and can be shot down easily. Have a good evening. m.m.r

  #12   Report Post  
w_tom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

The suspension patent stated what could happen when the
suspension was 'tested'. That is not a driver failure to do
what all other cars must do without failure. Corvair
suspension failure that even the engineer's patent predicted
if...

One could claim that all drivers should know not to corner
hard; therefore it is the driver's fault for doing what is not
a problem on any other car. But if the Corvair fails and
kills people when doing what all other cars do normally, AND
when the engineer says in advance this was a problem; then
instead we blame the victim? Where does did logic come from?

If Corvair required special driver's training, then why did
GM not provide that training standard with every Corvair?

That was the mentality back then. Hundreds were killed when
the Beverly Hills Supper Club caught fire outside of
Cincinnati. The KY Governor's report also blamed the victims
for their own death. Just as silly.

The Corvair was not an 18 wheeler that requires special
handling. But then even an 18 wheeler does not put a known
defective design in its suspension - only because a cost
controller is trying to save $2. People killed only because
the stabilizer bar costs an excessive $2! Should all drivers
receive special training in case one might drive a Corvair -
so that GM can save $2 on a stabilizer bar? The reason that
Corvair suspension would fail - as the patent said it would -
is because cost controllers feared to spend money on a
stabilizer bar that the patent said was necessary.

BTW, you have it all wrong. Once the rear wheel buckled
under, nothing using a gas pedal was going to save the vehicle
from overturning. That failure was noted in the patent.
Corvair killed because top management more feared the cost of
a stabilizer bar than making the car drive like every other
car.

It is a fear of spending money and a fear of listening to
those who come from where the work gets done that causes
regulations. How many more astronauts will we need murder
before that same top management problem is fixed - either by
holding top management responsible (which we never do) or by
making more regulations?

At what point did taking toxic arsenic out of playground
wood make it boring? Why did it finally require regulation to
do what common sense says was danagerous? Did those
playground manufacturers fear kids would be bored by wood
without arsenic?

Cosmopolite wrote:
I disagree. The operation of any device has everything to do with
the operator. The average American driver was used to the handling
characteristics of front heavy vehicles which understeer. When a
front heavy, understeering vehicle exceeds it's cornering
capability, the front wheels loose traction and the vehicle goes
straight instead of cornering. ( like trying to turn on ice ) The
solution to this is to take your foot OFF the gas pedal.
When a rear heavy vehicle exceeds it's cornering capability, the
swing around. ( like burning a doughnut ) The solution to this is
to give it MORE gas. This straightens the vehicle out. ( within
limits, of course ) If you take your foot OFF the gas under
these conditions, the vehicle will spin around, out of control.
The early ( 1960-1964 ) swing axle Corvair received the stabilizer
bar in 1964. The later ( 1965-1969 ) Corvair had a totally
different suspension system, similar to the Corvette and Jaguar.
This suspension did not produce camber changes ( wheel jack-up )
like the early model.

While I agree that there have to be safety regulations ( products
and behavior ), this has to be done very carefully. We are
currently having a problem with safe playground design. The new
playground equipment is a lot safer than the old, but the
children find it very boring.

If a society demands ever safer and secure lifestyles, one day it
will find itself imprisioned. Life is and has always been risky.
Only living organisms get hurt, dead ones do not.

  #13   Report Post  
Cosmopolite
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

I am in no way trying to defend GM, or any other corp. for their
policies. I just wanted to state that from my personal experience
of driving two of them, that I think they were a good car.

I occasionally street raced ( bad thing to do ) my 63 around traffic
circles at 2 in the morning and never had a problem with the rear end
jacking up. I mentioned the Spitfire because that incident stands out
in my memory for the fact that it was sold as a sports car ( with a
sports
car suspension ? ) while the Corvair was sold as a sporty sedan.

If you look at traffic accident statistics, you will conclude that the
overwhelming majority of them are caused by driver error. I do believe
that
people should go to skid-school etc. and learn how to drive properly.

Poor design and corporate greed notwithstanding, I believe that users
of a product are responsible for finding out what that product is and
how to use it safely. SUV's are a prime example. Every winter, the body
shops
in our area get a disproportionate number of SUV's for collision repair.

The drivers seem to think that because 4 wheel drive gives them better
acceleration on slippery roads, it will also give them greater stopping
power.

Too many people are ducking their personal responsibility ( like GM, in
the
Corvair case ) and only want to blame others when things go wrong.
A million dollars for spilling hot coffee on yourself while driving ?
Don't
drink and drive! If I spill something on myself I figure it was my own
doing.

As far as the playground issue is concerned, It does not involve wood
preservatives, but the design of steel and plastic equipment so that no
child
could ever get hurt no matter what they do. Many of the kids that were
interviewed as to why they stopped going to the new playground said
that the new equipment was boring and did not offer them any challenges.





w_tom wrote:

The suspension patent stated what could happen when the
suspension was 'tested'. That is not a driver failure to do
what all other cars must do without failure. Corvair
suspension failure that even the engineer's patent predicted
if...

One could claim that all drivers should know not to corner
hard; therefore it is the driver's fault for doing what is not
a problem on any other car. But if the Corvair fails and
kills people when doing what all other cars do normally, AND
when the engineer says in advance this was a problem; then
instead we blame the victim? Where does did logic come from?

If Corvair required special driver's training, then why did
GM not provide that training standard with every Corvair?

That was the mentality back then. Hundreds were killed when
the Beverly Hills Supper Club caught fire outside of
Cincinnati. The KY Governor's report also blamed the victims
for their own death. Just as silly.

The Corvair was not an 18 wheeler that requires special
handling. But then even an 18 wheeler does not put a known
defective design in its suspension - only because a cost
controller is trying to save $2. People killed only because
the stabilizer bar costs an excessive $2! Should all drivers
receive special training in case one might drive a Corvair -
so that GM can save $2 on a stabilizer bar? The reason that
Corvair suspension would fail - as the patent said it would -
is because cost controllers feared to spend money on a
stabilizer bar that the patent said was necessary.

BTW, you have it all wrong. Once the rear wheel buckled
under, nothing using a gas pedal was going to save the vehicle
from overturning. That failure was noted in the patent.
Corvair killed because top management more feared the cost of
a stabilizer bar than making the car drive like every other
car.

It is a fear of spending money and a fear of listening to
those who come from where the work gets done that causes
regulations. How many more astronauts will we need murder
before that same top management problem is fixed - either by
holding top management responsible (which we never do) or by
making more regulations?

At what point did taking toxic arsenic out of playground
wood make it boring? Why did it finally require regulation to
do what common sense says was danagerous? Did those
playground manufacturers fear kids would be bored by wood
without arsenic?

Cosmopolite wrote:
I disagree. The operation of any device has everything to do with
the operator. The average American driver was used to the handling
characteristics of front heavy vehicles which understeer. When a
front heavy, understeering vehicle exceeds it's cornering
capability, the front wheels loose traction and the vehicle goes
straight instead of cornering. ( like trying to turn on ice ) The
solution to this is to take your foot OFF the gas pedal.
When a rear heavy vehicle exceeds it's cornering capability, the
swing around. ( like burning a doughnut ) The solution to this is
to give it MORE gas. This straightens the vehicle out. ( within
limits, of course ) If you take your foot OFF the gas under
these conditions, the vehicle will spin around, out of control.
The early ( 1960-1964 ) swing axle Corvair received the stabilizer
bar in 1964. The later ( 1965-1969 ) Corvair had a totally
different suspension system, similar to the Corvette and Jaguar.
This suspension did not produce camber changes ( wheel jack-up )
like the early model.

While I agree that there have to be safety regulations ( products
and behavior ), this has to be done very carefully. We are
currently having a problem with safe playground design. The new
playground equipment is a lot safer than the old, but the
children find it very boring.

If a society demands ever safer and secure lifestyles, one day it
will find itself imprisioned. Life is and has always been risky.
Only living organisms get hurt, dead ones do not.


  #14   Report Post  
w_tom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plug Strips

When Corvair was first introduced (before the prototype was
demonstrated), it was promoted as GM's competition to
Porsche. Back then, Porsche was said to be worried what this
big monolith would produce to put Porsche out of business.
Porsche is said to have rushed a new model in production as a
result. Hindsight makes all those news stories humorous.
They were not considered comic stories back then.

It is a sad story that the President of Chevy had to lose
his job in order to get that stabilizer bar. Corporate
histories are full of such types. Boisoloy told the truth
about Challenger to the Roger's commission. He could never
get an engineering job again. In the meantime, the Columbia
investigation committee only confirms what was long obvious.
Management was the reasons for both disasters; they were not
accidents. It cost Boisoloy his future without fixing the
problem called NASA. We don't protect whistle blowers to our
own detriment.

What corporate bean counter was even considered for third
degree murder in the death of Corvair occupants - so that he
could save $2 per car. Remember the Pinto? It exploded on
testing before any were sold. That part to stop gas tank
explosions (and passengers burning alive) cost $4. Ironically
the State of IN Pinto trial is reported on the same page deep
inside the NY Times next to a report on the Beverly Hills
Supper Club disaster - where the victims were blamed by the KY
Governor for their own deaths.

McDonald's coffee? Did you read the details? McDonalds had
hundreds of previous cases because the coffee was excessively
hot. Doctor went to emergency room expecting to treat some
minor burns. Instead he found burns deep to the leg bone.
Massive difference between coffee at 130 degrees and coffee in
excess of 190 degrees. The latter is considered life
threatening. And McDonalds had documented hundreds of
previous cases - and still did not lower the temperature of
coffee to below 140 degrees. Those 50 degrees are a massive
difference. Amazing how details of an unresponsive McDonalds
are forgotten. McDonalds was also arrogant in that trial.
They got the punishment they deserved because they could not
respond to hundreds of previous events.

Finally after McDonalds lowered the temperature of coffee,
they started selling coffee that was drinkable. It fixed the
bad taste because coffee was being brewed at too high
temperature - in violation of coffee industry guidelines for
how to best brew coffee. Everyone won because of that
lawsuit.

I remember McDonalds coffee back then. It always gave a
headache because it was improperly brewed.

Cosmopolite wrote:
I am in no way trying to defend GM, or any other corp. for their
policies. I just wanted to state that from my personal experience
of driving two of them, that I think they were a good car.

I occasionally street raced ( bad thing to do ) my 63 around traffic
circles at 2 in the morning and never had a problem with the rear end
jacking up. I mentioned the Spitfire because that incident stands out
in my memory for the fact that it was sold as a sports car ( with a
sports
car suspension ? ) while the Corvair was sold as a sporty sedan.

If you look at traffic accident statistics, you will conclude that the
overwhelming majority of them are caused by driver error. I do believe
that
people should go to skid-school etc. and learn how to drive properly.

Poor design and corporate greed notwithstanding, I believe that users
of a product are responsible for finding out what that product is and
how to use it safely. SUV's are a prime example. Every winter, the body
shops
in our area get a disproportionate number of SUV's for collision repair.

The drivers seem to think that because 4 wheel drive gives them better
acceleration on slippery roads, it will also give them greater stopping
power.

Too many people are ducking their personal responsibility ( like GM, in
the
Corvair case ) and only want to blame others when things go wrong.
A million dollars for spilling hot coffee on yourself while driving ?
Don't
drink and drive! If I spill something on myself I figure it was my own
doing.

As far as the playground issue is concerned, It does not involve wood
preservatives, but the design of steel and plastic equipment so that no
child
could ever get hurt no matter what they do. Many of the kids that were
interviewed as to why they stopped going to the new playground said
that the new equipment was boring and did not offer them any challenges.

Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug Dennis van Dam Metalworking 22 August 3rd 04 07:32 AM
Help Me Pull The Plug Fdmorrison Metalworking 39 February 10th 04 12:33 AM
Replace Dyson Plug Ade Smith UK diy 2 July 4th 03 06:23 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:31 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"