On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:12:15 -0400, Trent©
wrote:


But, again...all this is different from real estate law.
Of course it is all different from real estate law - the job the OP
wanted an estimate for has no relationship to the sale, rental or
purchase of real property it is for a service!

That is about as close as you have gotten to the meat of the subject
in any of the artri8cles you have posted in this thread!

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:53:19 GMT, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:10:59 -0400, "Jeepnstein"
wrote of his wife:

I could almost write a book about her house buying tactics. We are getting
ready to move into one that she pursued relentlessly for two years. She
even baked cookies for the seller and sent holiday cards.

Impressive!


Almost as impressive as the apple pies that frequently were baking in
the ovens in the houses we were looking at when we thought we might
want to buy one on LI.

Nothing would make her happier than to get to haggle over something with
someone else's money. You would have to negotiate the fee for yourself, I
don't want anything to do with it.

Not a problem: are you in western New York?

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:53:19 GMT, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:10:59 -0400, "Jeepnstein"
wrote of his wife:

I could almost write a book about her house buying tactics. We are getting
ready to move into one that she pursued relentlessly for two years. She
even baked cookies for the seller and sent holiday cards.

Impressive!


Almost as impressive as the apple pies that frequently were baking in
the ovens in the houses we were looking at when we thought we might
want to buy one on LI.

Nothing would make her happier than to get to haggle over something with
someone else's money. You would have to negotiate the fee for yourself, I
don't want anything to do with it.

Not a problem: are you in western New York?

On 18 Aug 2003 13:25:27 GMT, c (TOM KAN PA) wrote:

Why won't a contractor come out to the house to give me an estimate?
I called a company that is applying that *liquid vinyl siding*. All I
wanted
was an estimate. Wasn't going to pick a color. He insisted on coming out
in an
evening when the wife was home. I told him that I knew how much we
could
afford and if we go with it, then she can choose the color. Nope, he
would not
come out just to give me alone an estimate.
Same for windows. We knew exactly what we wanted. Three sliders, two
double
hung in white. Nope, we both had to be there.
As far as I'm concerned two sales could have been lost because of the
bullheaded stubborn policy.




Holy crapola! Are all the thick headed people in the world here in AHR?
There is no legal, financial or moral reason to have to have the two of them
together at the same time. Sooooooooo, the reason must be sales tactics.

When I sold cars and someone said they had to run it by the spouse, I said,
"You go home and ask your wife if you can buy the car, and I will go home
and ask my wife if I can sell it to you."

Most got the message.

Steve

On 18 Aug 2003 13:25:27 GMT, c (TOM KAN PA) wrote:

Why won't a contractor come out to the house to give me an estimate?
I called a company that is applying that *liquid vinyl siding*. All I
wanted
was an estimate. Wasn't going to pick a color. He insisted on coming out
in an
evening when the wife was home. I told him that I knew how much we
could
afford and if we go with it, then she can choose the color. Nope, he
would not
come out just to give me alone an estimate.
Same for windows. We knew exactly what we wanted. Three sliders, two
double
hung in white. Nope, we both had to be there.
As far as I'm concerned two sales could have been lost because of the
bullheaded stubborn policy.




Holy crapola! Are all the thick headed people in the world here in AHR?
There is no legal, financial or moral reason to have to have the two of them
together at the same time. Sooooooooo, the reason must be sales tactics.

When I sold cars and someone said they had to run it by the spouse, I said,
"You go home and ask your wife if you can buy the car, and I will go home
and ask my wife if I can sell it to you."

Most got the message.

Steve

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:12:48 -0400, Trent©
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:20:30 GMT, wrote:

That is about as close as you have gotten to the meat of the subject
in any of the artri8cles you have posted in this thread!

You should keep one name...we're gettin' confused.


Have a nice week...



Doesn't take too much to confuse some dim witted people like you ---

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:12:48 -0400, Trent©
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:20:30 GMT, wrote:

That is about as close as you have gotten to the meat of the subject
in any of the artri8cles you have posted in this thread!

You should keep one name...we're gettin' confused.


Have a nice week...



Doesn't take too much to confuse some dim witted people like you ---

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:10:59 -0400, "Jeepnstein"
wrote of his wife:

I could almost write a book about her house buying tactics. We are getting
ready to move into one that she pursued relentlessly for two years. She
even baked cookies for the seller and sent holiday cards.

When I was looking for a house, one seller told me she had a
girlfriend at work who she thought would like me. I was just moving
to this city. When I bought another house, I called her. She said,
"I think she's seeing someone."

Impressive!


Almost as impressive as the apple pies that frequently were baking in
the ovens in the houses we were looking at when we thought we might
want to buy one on LI.

I've heard of that. Probably a good idea.

Meirman

If emailing, please let me know whether
or not you are posting the same letter.

Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:10:59 -0400, "Jeepnstein"
wrote of his wife:

I could almost write a book about her house buying tactics. We are getting
ready to move into one that she pursued relentlessly for two years. She
even baked cookies for the seller and sent holiday cards.

When I was looking for a house, one seller told me she had a
girlfriend at work who she thought would like me. I was just moving
to this city. When I bought another house, I called her. She said,
"I think she's seeing someone."

Impressive!


Almost as impressive as the apple pies that frequently were baking in
the ovens in the houses we were looking at when we thought we might
want to buy one on LI.

I've heard of that. Probably a good idea.

Meirman

If emailing, please let me know whether
or not you are posting the same letter.

Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.

No, we're in Ohio.

snipped...

Not a problem: are you in western New York?

No, we're in Ohio.

snipped...

Not a problem: are you in western New York?

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:10:39 -0500, (Pat Kiewicz)
wrote:


If he had a contract with both, he could have been in better position to
enforce the contract (with the wage earning half) and/or put a lien on the
joint asset (house). He couldn't do this with only one signature. (I rather
think his lawyer strongly recommended he have both people sign in for any
future contracts.)

The problem revolved around the fact that the house became embroiled
in the marital litigation and regardless of how many signatures he had
the problem would not go away - as you already said :

"... The house and everything to do with it went into legal limbo --
and it nearly wiped out his fledgling business....."

The implication you are making is that the "contract" as being among
the things that went with it, would also be lost in the tangled web of
the separation/divorce. If anything any action he could take to
recover on the contract would possibly also involve protracted
litigation to get it pulled out of the mess they had created for
themselves.

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:10:39 -0500, (Pat Kiewicz)
wrote:


If he had a contract with both, he could have been in better position to
enforce the contract (with the wage earning half) and/or put a lien on the
joint asset (house). He couldn't do this with only one signature. (I rather
think his lawyer strongly recommended he have both people sign in for any
future contracts.)

The problem revolved around the fact that the house became embroiled
in the marital litigation and regardless of how many signatures he had
the problem would not go away - as you already said :

"... The house and everything to do with it went into legal limbo --
and it nearly wiped out his fledgling business....."

The implication you are making is that the "contract" as being among
the things that went with it, would also be lost in the tangled web of
the separation/divorce. If anything any action he could take to
recover on the contract would possibly also involve protracted
litigation to get it pulled out of the mess they had created for
themselves.

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:27:03 -0400, meirman
wrote:

Almost as impressive as the apple pies that frequently were baking in
the ovens in the houses we were looking at when we thought we might
want to buy one on LI.

I've heard of that. Probably a good idea.


And for the inept cooks who may be selling a house, there is always
the trick offered by some Realtors of putting a simmering pot of water
on the range with a cinnamon stick and a vanilla bean in it (;-

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:27:03 -0400, meirman
wrote:

Almost as impressive as the apple pies that frequently were baking in
the ovens in the houses we were looking at when we thought we might
want to buy one on LI.

I've heard of that. Probably a good idea.


And for the inept cooks who may be selling a house, there is always
the trick offered by some Realtors of putting a simmering pot of water
on the range with a cinnamon stick and a vanilla bean in it (;-

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:27:06 -0400, Trent©
wrote:


I use this to keep track...

24.136.247.233

Smart aren't you, but it doesn't matter since the purpose is to avoid
address harvesters anyway.

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:27:06 -0400, Trent©
wrote:


I use this to keep track...

24.136.247.233

Smart aren't you, but it doesn't matter since the purpose is to avoid
address harvesters anyway.

"C. Brunner" wrote in message

And, for Pete's sake, didn't the OP just want an estimate? He wasn't
talking about signing a contract--he just wanted an idea how much the
job would cost, excluding color as a factor. I doubt this was really a
contract-law issue.

C. Brunner

The OP wanted an estimate. The seller wanted to make a sale, not just give a
price. Different goals by the parties that will be meeting.
Ed

"C. Brunner" wrote in message

And, for Pete's sake, didn't the OP just want an estimate? He wasn't
talking about signing a contract--he just wanted an idea how much the
job would cost, excluding color as a factor. I doubt this was really a
contract-law issue.

C. Brunner

The OP wanted an estimate. The seller wanted to make a sale, not just give a
price. Different goals by the parties that will be meeting.
Ed

Well yea, price depends on the beauty of the wife.

Seriously, it is a waste of the estimators time to not try to sell your
services to the person making the decisions. I will often not even waste my
time writing the estimate if I never meet the customer. They can't be
serious about hiring my services if they can't take the time to talk it over
in person. Its called recognizing the price shoppers. Price also often
varies depending on customers attitude, expectations, etc. That contractor
apparently decided your wife is a very important person in this process.

MH

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...


The OP wanted an estimate. The seller wanted to make a sale, not just give
a
price. Different goals by the parties that will be meeting.
Ed

Well yea, price depends on the beauty of the wife.

Seriously, it is a waste of the estimators time to not try to sell your
services to the person making the decisions. I will often not even waste my
time writing the estimate if I never meet the customer. They can't be
serious about hiring my services if they can't take the time to talk it over
in person. Its called recognizing the price shoppers. Price also often
varies depending on customers attitude, expectations, etc. That contractor
apparently decided your wife is a very important person in this process.

MH

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...


The OP wanted an estimate. The seller wanted to make a sale, not just give
a
price. Different goals by the parties that will be meeting.
Ed

"MSH" mnd@jaacom wrote in message ...
Well yea, price depends on the beauty of the wife.

Seriously, it is a waste of the estimators time to not try to sell your
services to the person making the decisions. I will often not even waste
my
time writing the estimate if I never meet the customer. They can't be
serious about hiring my services if they can't take the time to talk it
over
in person. Its called recognizing the price shoppers. Price also often
varies depending on customers attitude, expectations, etc. That contractor
apparently decided your wife is a very important person in this process.

MH


I guess you missed the posts from the guy who had estimates left in the
mailbox and he had the work done. Never and always are two dangerous words.

STeve

"MSH" mnd@jaacom wrote in message ...
Well yea, price depends on the beauty of the wife.

Seriously, it is a waste of the estimators time to not try to sell your
services to the person making the decisions. I will often not even waste
my
time writing the estimate if I never meet the customer. They can't be
serious about hiring my services if they can't take the time to talk it
over
in person. Its called recognizing the price shoppers. Price also often
varies depending on customers attitude, expectations, etc. That contractor
apparently decided your wife is a very important person in this process.

MH


I guess you missed the posts from the guy who had estimates left in the
mailbox and he had the work done. Never and always are two dangerous words.

STeve

I also live in Ohio and had my shop (2 car garage) built, cost of
$15000, contractor never met my wife nor had any desire to.
I did put 1/3 down before work started.

The ones defending the contractor for demanding to see both
parties just for an estimate obviously are salesmen themselves.
Any contractor demanding to see both parties before giving an
estimate doesn't have much confidence in his product or his ability.

Of course I don't call people out just to socialize. If I want an
estimate I am ready to buy.

Steve

I also live in Ohio and had my shop (2 car garage) built, cost of
$15000, contractor never met my wife nor had any desire to.
I did put 1/3 down before work started.

The ones defending the contractor for demanding to see both
parties just for an estimate obviously are salesmen themselves.
Any contractor demanding to see both parties before giving an
estimate doesn't have much confidence in his product or his ability.

Of course I don't call people out just to socialize. If I want an
estimate I am ready to buy.

Steve

"Trent©" wrote:

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:55:36 GMT, 'nuther Bob
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:10:39 -0500, (Pat Kiewicz)
wrote:

If he had a contract with both, he could have been in better position to
enforce the contract (with the wage earning half) and/or put a lien on the
joint asset (house). He couldn't do this with only one signature. (I rather
think his lawyer strongly recommended he have both people sign in for any
future contracts.)

That would vary greatly by state. Most states have joint property laws
and it wouldn't make any difference.

Regardless, if it's that much of a concern, the salesperson could
come out and meet with you and simply say "before we can start the
work, everyone on the deed must sign the paperwork. Sign this contract
and mail it back to me."

It makes little difference who's name is on the deed. In many states
(most?...all?), if you are married...and you buy a house...and you put
only your name on the deed...you are NOT the sole owner of the house.

You cannot sell the house without your wife's permission.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Cat...the OTHER white meat!

That's not true. What you are referring to is community
property states and there aren't that many. I live in a
community property state and it still isn't true under
certain circumstances. If I inherit money or property and
don't comingle it with joint property stuff (and you can
hardly comingle a piece of real estate) then it is mine
alone and I can use it or sell as I wish. My wife has no
legal say. So yes, the name on the deed can be very
important. Such matters vary quite widely over the states
so it all depend on the location.

"Trent©" wrote:

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:55:36 GMT, 'nuther Bob
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:10:39 -0500, (Pat Kiewicz)
wrote:

If he had a contract with both, he could have been in better position to
enforce the contract (with the wage earning half) and/or put a lien on the
joint asset (house). He couldn't do this with only one signature. (I rather
think his lawyer strongly recommended he have both people sign in for any
future contracts.)

That would vary greatly by state. Most states have joint property laws
and it wouldn't make any difference.

Regardless, if it's that much of a concern, the salesperson could
come out and meet with you and simply say "before we can start the
work, everyone on the deed must sign the paperwork. Sign this contract
and mail it back to me."

It makes little difference who's name is on the deed. In many states
(most?...all?), if you are married...and you buy a house...and you put
only your name on the deed...you are NOT the sole owner of the house.

You cannot sell the house without your wife's permission.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Cat...the OTHER white meat!

That's not true. What you are referring to is community
property states and there aren't that many. I live in a
community property state and it still isn't true under
certain circumstances. If I inherit money or property and
don't comingle it with joint property stuff (and you can
hardly comingle a piece of real estate) then it is mine
alone and I can use it or sell as I wish. My wife has no
legal say. So yes, the name on the deed can be very
important. Such matters vary quite widely over the states
so it all depend on the location.

wrote:

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:10:39 -0500, (Pat Kiewicz)
wrote:


If he had a contract with both, he could have been in better position to
enforce the contract (with the wage earning half) and/or put a lien on the
joint asset (house). He couldn't do this with only one signature. (I rather
think his lawyer strongly recommended he have both people sign in for any
future contracts.)

The problem revolved around the fact that the house became embroiled
in the marital litigation and regardless of how many signatures he had
the problem would not go away - as you already said :

"... The house and everything to do with it went into legal limbo --
and it nearly wiped out his fledgling business....."

The implication you are making is that the "contract" as being among
the things that went with it, would also be lost in the tangled web of
the separation/divorce. If anything any action he could take to
recover on the contract would possibly also involve protracted
litigation to get it pulled out of the mess they had created for
themselves.

Well you hear all sort of things, but I mostly heard that
the guy with the construction lien (he did put a lien on the
property) would have to be satisfied first. But anything is
possible.......

wrote:

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:10:39 -0500, (Pat Kiewicz)
wrote:


If he had a contract with both, he could have been in better position to
enforce the contract (with the wage earning half) and/or put a lien on the
joint asset (house). He couldn't do this with only one signature. (I rather
think his lawyer strongly recommended he have both people sign in for any
future contracts.)

The problem revolved around the fact that the house became embroiled
in the marital litigation and regardless of how many signatures he had
the problem would not go away - as you already said :

"... The house and everything to do with it went into legal limbo --
and it nearly wiped out his fledgling business....."

The implication you are making is that the "contract" as being among
the things that went with it, would also be lost in the tangled web of
the separation/divorce. If anything any action he could take to
recover on the contract would possibly also involve protracted
litigation to get it pulled out of the mess they had created for
themselves.

Well you hear all sort of things, but I mostly heard that
the guy with the construction lien (he did put a lien on the
property) would have to be satisfied first. But anything is
possible.......

I have been a small contractor for about 15 years and have worked in the
front office for two large and highly reputable contractors. Before that I
worked 6 years in the union as well as being involved in its training
program. I can't speak for every contractor around, I understand there are
slime balls, I have to deal with them too. The statements below prompt me to
shed some insight on why the good ones won't respond to every Tom Dick and
Harry making demands.

"'nuther Bob" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:25:38 -0700, "Desert Traveler"
wrote:

I guess you missed the posts from the guy who had estimates left in the
mailbox and he had the work done. Never and always are two dangerous
words.

STeve


One anectdote does not make good business practice.



I agree. Around here it's hard to get most contractors to come by and
meet with you. Unless it's a major job, most of them want to just come
by, take a look, and leave you an estimate. There are a few that will
go out of their way to meet up with you, not many.

That is, aside from the sleazy high pressure ones who insist on seeing
you and your wife together.

Bob

Then you are simply dealing with contractors who adon't expect to ever get
the job because of something you said or from too many previous callers just
price shopping. It is quite common to waste contractors' time by calling
around to get estimates you already know you will never use. We see it in
this newsgroup all the time, or bthey are too busy to give estimates
because there is a severe shortage of skilled tradesmen. Our society does
little to train or encourage our young to pursue a career in the trades.
Every child who can barely read is now paid and expected to go to college,
and votech schools are given no thought. This is a real problem. Also the
unrelenting pressure to keep construction labor prices low. Many seem to
expect a craftsman to work for poverty wages at a third of the pay of lets
say your average web page designer with a liberal arts degree(Silicon Valley
here).

Back to the estimates. It takes real time to prepare a good, accurate
estimate. Time to take your call, drive to the house, try to sell yourself
and your services, drive back to the shop, research products, research
prices, calculate and write the estimate and deal with any subsequent
questions. I spent 2.5 full days driving to LA last week chasing a job that
will never happen because the moisture tests failed. All for free. A part of
doing business for sure, but a contractor is a fool to not weed out price
shoppers. Who do you think ultimately pays? The next consumer, of course.
The fact that he/she misses a few live ones happens. As for the little jobs,
they just don't pay for a shop with overhead unless they get a minimum
charge which is usually very high for the work performed. There is no other
way unless you expect the contractor to lose money for the honor of working
on your project. The smaller contractors who might be more interested in the
small jobs don't have the resources to answer every request that they have
no hope of fulfilling.

Additionally, trying to consolidate your chances of getting the job by
meeting all the participating parties is hardly "sleazy", it is smart, for
everybody! I didn't get the original post, but we didn't hear the
conversation which prompted the estimator to ask to meet with the wife. (At
least he didn't ask to see the wife alone.) It is far better business to get
all parties together to answer as many questions as possible on the first
meet. I refuse jobs if I can't make eye contact with the customer. Doing
otherwise is crazy, customers can be just as sleazy as the contractors you
seem to hate. Interesting you slam the ones who don't respond and then slam
the one who wants to meet all participants together. A good contractor
prefers an educated customer.

I often hear complaints about bad contractors. I cringe because they hurt
all of us. I regularly see the general distrust it sows. On the other hand
the consumer bears some of the responsibility by not researching who they
hire. In their never-ending quest to get something on the cheap, they hire
the lowest bidder, don't check for references, don't check for licenses,
insurance, or can't even be bothered to meet those who will work on their
most valuable possession(see above). They are the enablers. Without this
attitude, the lowlifes would be either shaped up or out of business.

We all reap what we sow.

M Hamlin

I have been a small contractor for about 15 years and have worked in the
front office for two large and highly reputable contractors. Before that I
worked 6 years in the union as well as being involved in its training
program. I can't speak for every contractor around, I understand there are
slime balls, I have to deal with them too. The statements below prompt me to
shed some insight on why the good ones won't respond to every Tom Dick and
Harry making demands.

"'nuther Bob" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:25:38 -0700, "Desert Traveler"
wrote:

I guess you missed the posts from the guy who had estimates left in the
mailbox and he had the work done. Never and always are two dangerous
words.

STeve


One anectdote does not make good business practice.



I agree. Around here it's hard to get most contractors to come by and
meet with you. Unless it's a major job, most of them want to just come
by, take a look, and leave you an estimate. There are a few that will
go out of their way to meet up with you, not many.

That is, aside from the sleazy high pressure ones who insist on seeing
you and your wife together.

Bob

Then you are simply dealing with contractors who adon't expect to ever get
the job because of something you said or from too many previous callers just
price shopping. It is quite common to waste contractors' time by calling
around to get estimates you already know you will never use. We see it in
this newsgroup all the time, or bthey are too busy to give estimates
because there is a severe shortage of skilled tradesmen. Our society does
little to train or encourage our young to pursue a career in the trades.
Every child who can barely read is now paid and expected to go to college,
and votech schools are given no thought. This is a real problem. Also the
unrelenting pressure to keep construction labor prices low. Many seem to
expect a craftsman to work for poverty wages at a third of the pay of lets
say your average web page designer with a liberal arts degree(Silicon Valley
here).

Back to the estimates. It takes real time to prepare a good, accurate
estimate. Time to take your call, drive to the house, try to sell yourself
and your services, drive back to the shop, research products, research
prices, calculate and write the estimate and deal with any subsequent
questions. I spent 2.5 full days driving to LA last week chasing a job that
will never happen because the moisture tests failed. All for free. A part of
doing business for sure, but a contractor is a fool to not weed out price
shoppers. Who do you think ultimately pays? The next consumer, of course.
The fact that he/she misses a few live ones happens. As for the little jobs,
they just don't pay for a shop with overhead unless they get a minimum
charge which is usually very high for the work performed. There is no other
way unless you expect the contractor to lose money for the honor of working
on your project. The smaller contractors who might be more interested in the
small jobs don't have the resources to answer every request that they have
no hope of fulfilling.

Additionally, trying to consolidate your chances of getting the job by
meeting all the participating parties is hardly "sleazy", it is smart, for
everybody! I didn't get the original post, but we didn't hear the
conversation which prompted the estimator to ask to meet with the wife. (At
least he didn't ask to see the wife alone.) It is far better business to get
all parties together to answer as many questions as possible on the first
meet. I refuse jobs if I can't make eye contact with the customer. Doing
otherwise is crazy, customers can be just as sleazy as the contractors you
seem to hate. Interesting you slam the ones who don't respond and then slam
the one who wants to meet all participants together. A good contractor
prefers an educated customer.

I often hear complaints about bad contractors. I cringe because they hurt
all of us. I regularly see the general distrust it sows. On the other hand
the consumer bears some of the responsibility by not researching who they
hire. In their never-ending quest to get something on the cheap, they hire
the lowest bidder, don't check for references, don't check for licenses,
insurance, or can't even be bothered to meet those who will work on their
most valuable possession(see above). They are the enablers. Without this
attitude, the lowlifes would be either shaped up or out of business.

We all reap what we sow.

M Hamlin

Contractor has to see you AND the wife????

Group: alt.home.repair Date: Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 12:21pm (EDT-3) From:
mnd@jaacom (MSH)
I have been a small contractor for about 15 years and have worked in the
front office for two large and highly reputable contractors. Before that
I worked 6 years in the union as well as being involved in its training
program. I can't speak for every contractor around, I understand there
are slime balls, I have to deal with them too. The statements below
prompt me to shed some insight on why the good ones won't respond to
every Tom Dick and Harry making demands.
"'nuther Bob" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:25:38 -0700, "Desert Traveler"
wrote:
I guess you missed the posts from the guy who had estimates left in the
mailbox and he had the work done. Never and always are two dangerous
words.
STeve
One anectdote does not make good business practice.
I agree. Around here it's hard to get most contractors to come by and
meet with you. Unless it's a major job, most of them want to just come
by, take a look, and leave you an estimate. There are a few that will go
out of their way to meet up with you, not many.
That is, aside from the sleazy high pressure ones who insist on seeing
you and your wife together.
Bob
Then you are simply dealing with contractors who adon't expect to ever
get the job because of something you said or from too many previous
callers just price shopping. It is quite common to waste contractors'
time by calling around to get estimates you already know you will never
use. We see it in this newsgroup all the time, or bthey are too busy
to give estimates because there is a severe shortage of skilled
tradesmen. Our society does little to train or encourage our young to
pursue a career in the trades. Every child who can barely read is now
paid and expected to go to college, and votech schools are given no
thought. This is a real problem. Also the unrelenting pressure to keep
construction labor prices low. Many seem to expect a craftsman to work
for poverty wages at a third of the pay of lets say your average web
page designer with a liberal arts degree(Silicon Valley here).
Back to the estimates. It takes real time to prepare a good, accurate
estimate. Time to take your call, drive to the house, try to sell
yourself and your services, drive back to the shop, research products,
research prices, calculate and write the estimate and deal with any
subsequent questions. I spent 2.5 full days driving to LA last week
chasing a job that will never happen because the moisture tests failed.
All for free. A part of doing business for sure, but a contractor is a
fool to not weed out price shoppers. Who do you think ultimately pays?
The next consumer, of course. The fact that he/she misses a few live
ones happens. As for the little jobs, they just don't pay for a shop
with overhead unless they get a minimum charge which is usually very
high for the work performed. There is no other way unless you expect the
contractor to lose money for the honor of working on your project. The
smaller contractors who might be more interested in the small jobs don't
have the resources to answer every request that they have no hope of
fulfilling.
Additionally, trying to consolidate your chances of getting the job by
meeting all the participating parties is hardly "sleazy", it is smart,
for everybody! I didn't get the original post, but we didn't hear the
conversation which prompted the estimator to ask to meet with the wife.
(At least he didn't ask to see the wife alone.) It is far better
business to get all parties together to answer as many questions as
possible on the first meet. I refuse jobs if I can't make eye contact
with the customer. Doing otherwise is crazy, customers can be just as
sleazy as the contractors you seem to hate. Interesting you slam the
ones who don't respond and then slam the one who wants to meet all
participants together. A good contractor prefers an educated customer.
I often hear complaints about bad contractors. I cringe because they
hurt all of us. I regularly see the general distrust it sows. On the
other hand the consumer bears some of the responsibility by not
researching who they hire. In their never-ending quest to get something
on the cheap, they hire the lowest bidder, don't check for references,
don't check for licenses, insurance, or can't even be bothered to meet
those who will work on their most valuable possession(see above). They
are the enablers. Without this attitude, the lowlifes would be either
shaped up or out of business.
We all reap what we sow.
M Hamlin
+++++++++++++++++++++

John wrote:

Very good Hamlin, wish I could have put it so well.

Contractor has to see you AND the wife????

Group: alt.home.repair Date: Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 12:21pm (EDT-3) From:
mnd@jaacom (MSH)
I have been a small contractor for about 15 years and have worked in the
front office for two large and highly reputable contractors. Before that
I worked 6 years in the union as well as being involved in its training
program. I can't speak for every contractor around, I understand there
are slime balls, I have to deal with them too. The statements below
prompt me to shed some insight on why the good ones won't respond to
every Tom Dick and Harry making demands.
"'nuther Bob" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:25:38 -0700, "Desert Traveler"
wrote:
I guess you missed the posts from the guy who had estimates left in the
mailbox and he had the work done. Never and always are two dangerous
words.
STeve
One anectdote does not make good business practice.
I agree. Around here it's hard to get most contractors to come by and
meet with you. Unless it's a major job, most of them want to just come
by, take a look, and leave you an estimate. There are a few that will go
out of their way to meet up with you, not many.
That is, aside from the sleazy high pressure ones who insist on seeing
you and your wife together.
Bob
Then you are simply dealing with contractors who adon't expect to ever
get the job because of something you said or from too many previous
callers just price shopping. It is quite common to waste contractors'
time by calling around to get estimates you already know you will never
use. We see it in this newsgroup all the time, or bthey are too busy
to give estimates because there is a severe shortage of skilled
tradesmen. Our society does little to train or encourage our young to
pursue a career in the trades. Every child who can barely read is now
paid and expected to go to college, and votech schools are given no
thought. This is a real problem. Also the unrelenting pressure to keep
construction labor prices low. Many seem to expect a craftsman to work
for poverty wages at a third of the pay of lets say your average web
page designer with a liberal arts degree(Silicon Valley here).
Back to the estimates. It takes real time to prepare a good, accurate
estimate. Time to take your call, drive to the house, try to sell
yourself and your services, drive back to the shop, research products,
research prices, calculate and write the estimate and deal with any
subsequent questions. I spent 2.5 full days driving to LA last week
chasing a job that will never happen because the moisture tests failed.
All for free. A part of doing business for sure, but a contractor is a
fool to not weed out price shoppers. Who do you think ultimately pays?
The next consumer, of course. The fact that he/she misses a few live
ones happens. As for the little jobs, they just don't pay for a shop
with overhead unless they get a minimum charge which is usually very
high for the work performed. There is no other way unless you expect the
contractor to lose money for the honor of working on your project. The
smaller contractors who might be more interested in the small jobs don't
have the resources to answer every request that they have no hope of
fulfilling.
Additionally, trying to consolidate your chances of getting the job by
meeting all the participating parties is hardly "sleazy", it is smart,
for everybody! I didn't get the original post, but we didn't hear the
conversation which prompted the estimator to ask to meet with the wife.
(At least he didn't ask to see the wife alone.) It is far better
business to get all parties together to answer as many questions as
possible on the first meet. I refuse jobs if I can't make eye contact
with the customer. Doing otherwise is crazy, customers can be just as
sleazy as the contractors you seem to hate. Interesting you slam the
ones who don't respond and then slam the one who wants to meet all
participants together. A good contractor prefers an educated customer.
I often hear complaints about bad contractors. I cringe because they
hurt all of us. I regularly see the general distrust it sows. On the
other hand the consumer bears some of the responsibility by not
researching who they hire. In their never-ending quest to get something
on the cheap, they hire the lowest bidder, don't check for references,
don't check for licenses, insurance, or can't even be bothered to meet
those who will work on their most valuable possession(see above). They
are the enablers. Without this attitude, the lowlifes would be either
shaped up or out of business.
We all reap what we sow.
M Hamlin
+++++++++++++++++++++

John wrote:

Very good Hamlin, wish I could have put it so well.

++++++your all freakin idiots++++++

this contractor obviously wanted this woman to be home so he new what he
would be looking (lurking) at while she was sunbathing in the back yard,
while "working" on this poor *******s home (while the cat is away).
isn't that how MOST contractors think?


AJ
"my wife ran away with the sexy carpenter"

++++++your all freakin idiots++++++

this contractor obviously wanted this woman to be home so he new what he
would be looking (lurking) at while she was sunbathing in the back yard,
while "working" on this poor *******s home (while the cat is away).
isn't that how MOST contractors think?


AJ
"my wife ran away with the sexy carpenter"

"MSH" mnd@jaacom wrote in message


Additionally, trying to consolidate your chances of getting the job by
meeting all the participating parties is hardly "sleazy", it is smart, for
everybody! I didn't get the original post, but we didn't hear the
conversation which prompted the estimator to ask to meet with the wife.

Your points are noted and well stated. If you are estimating a 3 room
addition to my house, or a 40,000 manufacturing building, you are correct.
You want to get information from everyone involved.

The OP wanted a price on some liquid vinyl siding. The "estimator" was not
going to the house to give a price, he wanted to make his sales pitch and
get the contract signed. He would have spent 10 minutes measuring, 5
minutes with the calculator, and an hour giving his sales spiel. "You too,
can have this siding for only $99 a month for 99 years."
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

"MSH" mnd@jaacom wrote in message


Additionally, trying to consolidate your chances of getting the job by
meeting all the participating parties is hardly "sleazy", it is smart, for
everybody! I didn't get the original post, but we didn't hear the
conversation which prompted the estimator to ask to meet with the wife.

Your points are noted and well stated. If you are estimating a 3 room
addition to my house, or a 40,000 manufacturing building, you are correct.
You want to get information from everyone involved.

The OP wanted a price on some liquid vinyl siding. The "estimator" was not
going to the house to give a price, he wanted to make his sales pitch and
get the contract signed. He would have spent 10 minutes measuring, 5
minutes with the calculator, and an hour giving his sales spiel. "You too,
can have this siding for only $99 a month for 99 years."
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome