"Dan Espen" wrote in message
...
writes:

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 16:31:56 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:


"Dan Espen" wrote in message
...

I have a 2006 Scion Xb. The CD player also does MP3s.
Physically, the CD can hold upward of 700 MP3 tracks at the default bit
rate.

That would be either a very, very low bit rate or very very short MP3s.

At 128 kbps an MP3 will require a bit more than 1/12 the space it would
if
not compressed; i.e, if a fully filled 700 MB CD has 10 tracks, and if
tracks of the same lengths were compressed to MP3 at 128 kbps, a 700 MB
CD
would hold 110-120 MP3s.

Personally, I find 128 kbps acceptable - many do not - but I wouldn't
want
to go much lower.

I agree, a 700 MB CD will hold more like 150-175. I am running one in
my car as we speak.

All this talk led me to examine the CDs I've been creating.
Looks like I've been creating Monaural CDs without knowing it.
Maybe that explains why I'm getting 250+ tracks per CD:

Audio file with ID3 version 2.3.0, contains: MPEG ADTS, layer III, v1, 64
kbps, 44.1 kHz, Monaural

The 64 kbps would have something to do with it.

I use 192kbps MINIMUM for MP3 export - even for spoken word projects.

You are certainly free to do use whatever bit rate you want but 192 is
WAY overkill for voice.

These days I use 320kbps for everything, as the difference in file sizes is
only a few MB and that's insignificant these days.

Many years ago I was tasked with encoding sermon's for a church. I used the
True Speech codec which could encode an hour speech to a very small file
size. Not so good for music, but it worked great for speech.

Of course, I recently looked at the website for that church and they now
use MP4 video files at hundreds of MB each. Times change.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On 09/24/2016 09:25 PM, wrote:

[snip]

Din standard connectors are generally round multi-pin connectors like
the old keyboard plugs


I remember a stereo tape deck that had a 5-pin DIN connector for all the
audio connections (2 input, 2 output).

--
91 days until the winter celebration (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I do not concern myself with gods and spirits either good or evil nor
do I serve any." [Lao Tse, founder of Taoism]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 11:10:18 -0500, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 09/24/2016 09:25 PM, wrote:

[snip]

Din standard connectors are generally round multi-pin connectors like
the old keyboard plugs


I remember a stereo tape deck that had a 5-pin DIN connector for all the
audio connections (2 input, 2 output).

I remember seeing "DIN" used on old microphone jacks/plugs many years
ago, but never knew what it meant. I just accepted it as the name for
that plug type. I think the old round keyboard plugs were of a similar
size (and even appearance). But I never knew the face plate size of car
radios was also using "DIN" for it's size.

But now, I'm left with one huge question. What are the actual sizes of a
FULL DIN (ONE DIN), one and a half DIN, Two DIN, and so on?????

Without running out to the car with a tape measure, I will make a guess
that the face of my factory radio is 'about' 2 inches in height, and 6
inches wide..... And since I had it out of the dash recently, I know
that the depth is important, bcause there is no spare room in back.

This is where it all gets confusing. How to know what will fit and what
wont. This pretty much eliminates buying a stereo on Ebay or Amazon or
Craigslist, since I will need to touch it, measure it, and so on. Then,
once I buy it, I'll have to go to a store or go online to order the
faceplate adaptor and wiring adaptor.

I have not shopped around much, but I see Walmart has some car stereos,
and they are pricy. Add in the cost of the faceplates and wiring
adaptors and this might end up costing $200 or more.... I dont really
think I want to spend that kind of money on a 20 year old vehicle, just
for a radio/stereo. I do plan to keep this car for awhile, and it's in
very good condition for its age, but plans change as things break,
and/or accidents occur, etc.... I know the stereo can be moved to
another vehicle, but that means buying another wiring aadaptor.
faceplate, etc.... The last time I saw those wiring adptors, they were
upward around $50.

In the past, I'd toss a Boombox on my seat, toss in a cassette and have
music that was also portable. Although those batteries did get costly. I
wonder what portable devices they have now, and I do have an auto 12vdc
to 120Vac inverter. I'm sure they make something like that which costs
much less than $200.

On 09/25/2016 03:33 PM, wrote:
Without running out to the car with a tape measure, I will make a guess
that the face of my factory radio is 'about' 2 inches in height, and 6
inches wide..... And since I had it out of the dash recently, I know
that the depth is important, bcause there is no spare room in back.

Single DIN is 2 1/8 x 7 1/8" (50 x 180 mm). Double is twice as high.
1.5 is an OEM screwing with you to make mounting a after market radio a
pain in the ass but usually there are dash kits that work. For your
edification, DIN stands for Deutsches Institut für Normung.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsc...C3%BCr_Normung

http://www.metraonline.com/products

Metra is the big player in dash kits and harnesses. You may also want to
get an into car or into radio harness to match the existing connectors
or you can just solder the wires together if you have a wiring diagram
for the car and radio. At least you have had the radio out. That can be
an interesting project in newer cars where you need to peel the dash to
even get to the damn thing, hopefully without breaking any tabs so you
can put it all back together.

wrote in message
news

In the past, I'd toss a Boombox on my seat, toss in a cassette and have
music that was also portable. Although those batteries did get costly. I
wonder what portable devices they have now, and I do have an auto 12vdc
to 120Vac inverter. I'm sure they make something like that which costs
much less than $200.

Five bucks up. You can get battery powered speakers too.

I'm left with one huge question. What are the actual sizes of a
FULL DIN (ONE DIN), one and a half DIN, Two DIN, and so on?????
Without running out to the car with a tape measure, I will make a guess
that the face of my factory radio is 'about' 2 inches in height, and 6
inches wide..... And since I had it out of the dash recently, I know
that the depth is important, bcause there is no spare room in back.
This is where it all gets confusing. How to know what will fit and what
wont. This pretty much eliminates buying a stereo on Ebay or Amazon or
Craigslist, since I will need to touch it, measure it, and so on.

I'm sure you could look up the actual dimensions of DIN on Google, but it
really doesn't matter. Any single DIN sized stereo is going to fit in a
single DIN sized opening. Same with double DIN stereos. That's the beauty
of a standard size.

It's like you can buy "letter", "legal", or A4 sized paper without knowing
the actual dimensions and know that it will fit in your printer.

The only variable that WILL be important is the depth. In other words, how
much space you have from the front of the faceplate to the back of the
dash. Obviously a stereo that is too deep is not going to fit in a shallow
opening.

Thankfully, most modern stereos are shallower than older stereos. If you're
buying used, you could easily ask them for the depth measurement if they
don't include it in their ad. It doesn't have to be exact, you'll want some
extra space in back for wiring and whatnot anyway.

Then, once I buy it, I'll have to go to a store or go online to order
the faceplate adaptor and wiring adaptor.

It might add $30-40 to the overall price at most.

I have not shopped around much, but I see Walmart has some car stereos,
and they are pricy. Add in the cost of the faceplates and wiring
adaptors and this might end up costing $200 or more.

Walmart would not be my first choice for stereo shopping. Try an actual car
stereo store, or look online at places like Crutchfield, Amazon, etc. You
can certainly find a nice car stereo for less than $200 if you don't need
all the fancy bells and whistles.

I dont really think I want to spend that kind of money on a 20 year old
vehicle, just for a radio/stereo. I do plan to keep this car for
a while

I'm sure your factory radio still works fine. It's a matter of how much
time you spend in the vehicle and if it would make your drive more
pleasant. A couple hundred dollars is a small price to pay for a more
enjoyable daily commute.

If it's an old farm truck that only gets driven once a month, it may not be
worth the trouble.

In the past, I'd toss a Boombox on my seat, toss in a cassette and have
music that was also portable. Although those batteries did get costly.
I wonder what portable devices they have now

There are more portable devices than you can imagine!


Last year I picked up one of these Bluetooth speakers for about $30:

https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Spe...rs-Microphone-
Including/dp/B012B56898/ref=sr_1_4

I don't use the bluetooth feature, but I inserted a microSD card filled
with hundreds of MP3 files. Despite it's tiny size the sound quality is
quite impressive, and it runs a very long time on the rechargeable battery.
It can even act as a power bank to charge other USB devices like your smart
phone.

That's just one example, there are many similar devices on the market if
you don't want to install a stereo in your car.


Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 15:35:34 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I'm sure your factory radio still works fine. It's a matter of how much
time you spend in the vehicle and if it would make your drive more
pleasant. A couple hundred dollars is a small price to pay for a more
enjoyable daily commute.

If it's an old farm truck that only gets driven once a month, it may not be
worth the trouble.

In the past, I'd toss a Boombox on my seat, toss in a cassette and have
music that was also portable. Although those batteries did get costly.
I wonder what portable devices they have now

There are more portable devices than you can imagine!


Last year I picked up one of these Bluetooth speakers for about $30:

https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Spe...rs-Microphone-
Including/dp/B012B56898/ref=sr_1_4

I don't use the bluetooth feature, but I inserted a microSD card filled
with hundreds of MP3 files. Despite it's tiny size the sound quality is
quite impressive, and it runs a very long time on the rechargeable battery.
It can even act as a power bank to charge other USB devices like your smart
phone.

That's just one example, there are many similar devices on the market if
you don't want to install a stereo in your car.


Thanks for the info. I'd be more inclined to buy one of these bluetooth
speaker devices. First it's affordable. Second, I drive quite a lot, and
while I drive my car the most, I do own a farm truck, and I need to
drive that to go to the nearest big city to buy building supplies and
other stuff. The nearest city is an hour away. My truck only has a
radio. Well, actually it has a tape player, but that has never worked
since I got the truck.

I wonder if any of these bluetooth things come with a power adaptor to
plug into a vehicle cig lighter socket?

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 11:35:48 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:

....snip...

Thankfully, most modern stereos are shallower than older stereos. If you're
buying used, you could easily ask them for the depth measurement if they
don't include it in their ad. It doesn't have to be exact, you'll want some
extra space in back for wiring and whatnot anyway.

....snip...

That reminds me of the time I tried to replace the mono radio in my 1966
lay-down Rambler with an after-market stereo AM/FM/Cassette unit.

Imagine my surprise when I opened up the dashboard and found that AMC had
used a radio with the face on the "bottom" and installed the radio "standing
up". Let's call it a vertical radio instead of your standard horizontal
radio.

http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/cf/a9/5a2f_35.JPG

In the image below you can see the radio with the round AC vents right
above it. The AC ductwork ran up behind the radio and there was no room
for a horizontal radio.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...wagon_azid.jpg

AMC was notorious for following the advice of Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak
Ridge: Improvise, Adapt and Overcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWCYv40Ur1g

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 12:28:25 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 15:35:34 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I'm sure your factory radio still works fine. It's a matter of how much
time you spend in the vehicle and if it would make your drive more
pleasant. A couple hundred dollars is a small price to pay for a more
enjoyable daily commute.

If it's an old farm truck that only gets driven once a month, it may not be
worth the trouble.

In the past, I'd toss a Boombox on my seat, toss in a cassette and have
music that was also portable. Although those batteries did get costly.
I wonder what portable devices they have now

There are more portable devices than you can imagine!


Last year I picked up one of these Bluetooth speakers for about $30:

https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Spe...rs-Microphone-
Including/dp/B012B56898/ref=sr_1_4

I don't use the bluetooth feature, but I inserted a microSD card filled
with hundreds of MP3 files. Despite it's tiny size the sound quality is
quite impressive, and it runs a very long time on the rechargeable battery.
It can even act as a power bank to charge other USB devices like your smart
phone.

That's just one example, there are many similar devices on the market if
you don't want to install a stereo in your car.


Thanks for the info. I'd be more inclined to buy one of these bluetooth
speaker devices. First it's affordable. Second, I drive quite a lot, and
while I drive my car the most, I do own a farm truck, and I need to
drive that to go to the nearest big city to buy building supplies and
other stuff. The nearest city is an hour away. My truck only has a
radio. Well, actually it has a tape player, but that has never worked
since I got the truck.

I wonder if any of these bluetooth things come with a power adaptor to
plug into a vehicle cig lighter socket?


It might be worth trying a tape adapter in the truck. A lot of times
the player may not work but the adapter will. Then you can plug in any
kind of MP3 player.

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 2:56:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 12:28:25 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 15:35:34 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I'm sure your factory radio still works fine. It's a matter of how much
time you spend in the vehicle and if it would make your drive more
pleasant. A couple hundred dollars is a small price to pay for a more
enjoyable daily commute.

If it's an old farm truck that only gets driven once a month, it may not be
worth the trouble.

In the past, I'd toss a Boombox on my seat, toss in a cassette and have
music that was also portable. Although those batteries did get costly.
I wonder what portable devices they have now

There are more portable devices than you can imagine!


Last year I picked up one of these Bluetooth speakers for about $30:

https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Spe...rs-Microphone-
Including/dp/B012B56898/ref=sr_1_4

I don't use the bluetooth feature, but I inserted a microSD card filled
with hundreds of MP3 files. Despite it's tiny size the sound quality is
quite impressive, and it runs a very long time on the rechargeable battery.
It can even act as a power bank to charge other USB devices like your smart
phone.

That's just one example, there are many similar devices on the market if
you don't want to install a stereo in your car.


Thanks for the info. I'd be more inclined to buy one of these bluetooth
speaker devices. First it's affordable. Second, I drive quite a lot, and
while I drive my car the most, I do own a farm truck, and I need to
drive that to go to the nearest big city to buy building supplies and
other stuff. The nearest city is an hour away. My truck only has a
radio. Well, actually it has a tape player, but that has never worked
since I got the truck.

I wonder if any of these bluetooth things come with a power adaptor to
plug into a vehicle cig lighter socket?


It might be worth trying a tape adapter in the truck. A lot of times
the player may not work but the adapter will. Then you can plug in any
kind of MP3 player.

Free Tip: When using a cassette adapter in a bookshelf stereo system,
don't accidentally hit the record button while the play button is
depressed. It makes a hell of a racket!

I have an old bookshelf system in my shop that I use with my smartphone.
Occasionally I miss the Stop button and hit the Record button
instead. Can you say BZZZBBZBBZBBZZZZBBZBBZZZ?

DerbyDad03:

You probably created a feed-back loop when you accidentaly
hit Record with one of those adaptors in the cassette well. lol!

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 5:54:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
DerbyDad03:

You probably created a feed-back loop when you accidentaly
hit Record with one of those adaptors in the cassette well. lol!

Without a doubt!

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 12:28:25 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 15:35:34 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I'm sure your factory radio still works fine. It's a matter of how much
time you spend in the vehicle and if it would make your drive more
pleasant. A couple hundred dollars is a small price to pay for a more
enjoyable daily commute.

If it's an old farm truck that only gets driven once a month, it may not be
worth the trouble.

In the past, I'd toss a Boombox on my seat, toss in a cassette and have
music that was also portable. Although those batteries did get costly.
I wonder what portable devices they have now

There are more portable devices than you can imagine!


Last year I picked up one of these Bluetooth speakers for about $30:

https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Spe...rs-Microphone-
Including/dp/B012B56898/ref=sr_1_4

I don't use the bluetooth feature, but I inserted a microSD card filled
with hundreds of MP3 files. Despite it's tiny size the sound quality is
quite impressive, and it runs a very long time on the rechargeable battery.
It can even act as a power bank to charge other USB devices like your smart
phone.

That's just one example, there are many similar devices on the market if
you don't want to install a stereo in your car.


Thanks for the info. I'd be more inclined to buy one of these bluetooth
speaker devices. First it's affordable. Second, I drive quite a lot, and
while I drive my car the most, I do own a farm truck, and I need to
drive that to go to the nearest big city to buy building supplies and
other stuff. The nearest city is an hour away. My truck only has a
radio. Well, actually it has a tape player, but that has never worked
since I got the truck.

I wonder if any of these bluetooth things come with a power adaptor to
plug into a vehicle cig lighter socket?

If they don't they almost certainly have a "power jack" for charging
the batteries, and universal power adapters are available with just
about any plug available - and any voltage. Mix and match, and "bob's
your uncle"

That reminds me of the time I tried to replace the mono radio in my
1966 lay-down Rambler with an after-market stereo AM/FM/Cassette unit.
Imagine my surprise when I opened up the dashboard and found that AMC
had used a radio with the face on the "bottom" and installed the radio
"standing up". Let's call it a vertical radio instead of your standard
horizontal radio.
http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/cf/a9/5a2f_35.JPG

I worked as a car stereo installer back in the late 80's or early 90's. I
saw a lot of weird radio configurations, but that's one I never saw before.
Very interesting!

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

I'd be more inclined to buy one of these bluetooth speaker devices.

I wouldn't necessarily buy the one I have to use in a car. It's quite small
and the user controls leave something to be desired. You basically turn it
on and let it play through the songs. Skipping songs or folders is awkward
at best.

I bought it to use with my laptop so I could watch movies during power
outages. It works great for that. Doesn't take up much space, has good
sound quality, and the battery lasts a long time. The bluetooth connection
doesn't work right (buzzy audio), but it's easy enough to connect a wired
cable to the laptop.

As I said, there are many other powered speakers that can take memory cards
or USB drives. Shop around.

I wonder if any of these bluetooth things come with a power adaptor to
plug into a vehicle cig lighter socket?

They'll have a charging port. It would just be a matter of finding the
right cable and/or adapters to plug it into the lighter socket.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 04:18:44 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

That reminds me of the time I tried to replace the mono radio in my
1966 lay-down Rambler with an after-market stereo AM/FM/Cassette unit.
Imagine my surprise when I opened up the dashboard and found that AMC
had used a radio with the face on the "bottom" and installed the radio
"standing up". Let's call it a vertical radio instead of your standard
horizontal radio.
http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/cf/a9/5a2f_35.JPG

I worked as a car stereo installer back in the late 80's or early 90's. I
saw a lot of weird radio configurations, but that's one I never saw before.
Very interesting!

Anthony Watson

There was some sort of car radio from wayyyyy back, that had the
amplifier portion of the radio separate from the tuner. This was a tube
set, and probably from the 50s or early 60s.

When I was in my teens, I belonged to a group of kids that liked
electronics, and the old guy who ran the group was a Ham Oprerator and
he had piles of old radios, tvs and other gear. I remember asking him
about that unusual radio, but I dont recall what kind of car it was
from.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 04:28:03 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I'd be more inclined to buy one of these bluetooth speaker devices.

I wouldn't necessarily buy the one I have to use in a car. It's quite small
and the user controls leave something to be desired. You basically turn it
on and let it play through the songs. Skipping songs or folders is awkward
at best.

I bought it to use with my laptop so I could watch movies during power
outages. It works great for that. Doesn't take up much space, has good
sound quality, and the battery lasts a long time. The bluetooth connection
doesn't work right (buzzy audio), but it's easy enough to connect a wired
cable to the laptop.

As I said, there are many other powered speakers that can take memory cards
or USB drives. Shop around.

I wonder if any of these bluetooth things come with a power adaptor to
plug into a vehicle cig lighter socket?

They'll have a charging port. It would just be a matter of finding the
right cable and/or adapters to plug it into the lighter socket.

Anthony Watson

I was at Walmart again yesterday. I dont really intend to buy from them,
but I was looking at their car stereos. I have not really read about car
stereos in years and I was surprised to see that they have the ability
to play MP3s right from a USB flash drive, and also have an AUX input
for any audio source. One in particular I read the box, (Pioneer brand),
is AM, FM, CD, AUX, USB, and Bluetooth, plus has some sort of special
(thing) to connect a smartphone. (I dont use a smartphone, so that I did
not understand).

However, I still dont quite understand what the bluetooth does... I know
phones have that. Even my old flip phone, but how that has anything to
do with music is beyond me. If those car stereos have USB and the
ability to play music directly from a flash drive, that's all I need.
Heck, a 16GB flash drive holds over 5 times more music than my 3GB MP3
player.

On 09/27/2016 02:56 AM, wrote:
However, I still dont quite understand what the bluetooth does... I know
phones have that. Even my old flip phone, but how that has anything to
do with music is beyond me. If those car stereos have USB and the
ability to play music directly from a flash drive, that's all I need.
Heck, a 16GB flash drive holds over 5 times more music than my 3GB MP3
player.

Bluetooth is just a wireless communication technology. I have a radio
that takes a USB directly but I'm too lazy to replace the factory radio
with it. The factory one has an aux port on the console so I plug in the
MP3 player. The only downside is having to provide power to the player
and turn it off manually.

I haven't looked at car radios since I bought the USB model in 2007 but
many were iPod specific which ****ed me off since I don't do Apple. I
think the one I have also has a 8GB limit on the USB. That was a big
stick back then.

There was some sort of car radio from wayyyyy back, that had the
amplifier portion of the radio separate from the tuner. This was a
tube set, and probably from the 50s or early 60s.

I never saw a two part radio like that, but I did pull out a few tube
tuners. Big heavy boat anchors.

Back then the "standard" radio opening had a hole on each side for the
volume and tuner knobs and a smaller rectangular opening for the radio
dial. Installing a modern stereo in those cars meant cutting sheet metal.

Today I think you can buy "retro" radios that will fit the old openings
without cutting metal. New electronics in the old format.

Honestly, I haven't kept up with current car stereo's. The last stereo I
bought was over 15 years ago.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

I have not really read about car stereos in years and I was surprised
to see that they have the ability to play MP3s right from a USB flash
drive, and also have an AUX input for any audio source. One in
particular I read the box, (Pioneer brand), is AM, FM, CD, AUX, USB,
and Bluetooth

Yep, those are fairly typical features for most stereo systems.

I still dont quite understand what the bluetooth does.

It's basically just a wireless communication protocol that lets different
devices talk to each other.

For instance, you could play songs on your smart phone and have them
played over your car stereo via the wireless bluetooth connection.
Essentially like connecting a cable via the AUX input, only without the
wires.

Personally, I would rather put songs on a USB drive, but many folks have
everything on their smart phones.

If those car stereos have USB and the ability to play music directly
from a flash drive, that's all I need. Heck, a 16GB flash drive holds
over 5 times more music than my 3GB MP3 player.

My wife and daughter both have stereos with USB ports. They load up music
on a tiny USB drive, then plug it into their car stereo. Much more music
than a CD and no skips. We haven't played a CD in our cars for years.

I don't know about current stereos (ours are about 10-15 years old) but
ours are limited to 4GB flash drives. That's still a lot of music in a
tiny package. You could always carry multiple flash drives if that's too
limiting.

Our stereos are limited to MP3 files but I think newer ones support other
formats like WMA, AAC, and FLAC.

I keep saying I'm going to upgrade my ancient stereo to one with a USB
port. Unfortunately, every stereo on the market these days uses a knob
for the volume control. My car rides fairly rough so trying to make small
adjustments while bouncing around is kind of difficult. Worse yet, the
volume knobs usually have different functions when you push them in, so I
really mess things up when I hit a bump. My old Alpine stereo had
separate volume up and volume down buttons, much easier to use with a
stiff suspension. But, I don't really drive much anymore and generally
only listen to the radio anyway. Low priority.

Just as examples, here are some cheap car stereos with USB ports that may
work for you:

https://www.amazon.com/JVC-KDR670-CD...6/ref=sr_1_228

https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-DEH-X...-Din-Receiver-
Internet/dp/B01463VCMG/ref=sr_1_236

https://www.amazon.com/kenwood-KDC122U-Receiver-Front-
USB/dp/B00PWX9TJS/ref=sr_1_252


Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 04:56:49 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 04:28:03 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I'd be more inclined to buy one of these bluetooth speaker devices.

I wouldn't necessarily buy the one I have to use in a car. It's quite small
and the user controls leave something to be desired. You basically turn it
on and let it play through the songs. Skipping songs or folders is awkward
at best.

I bought it to use with my laptop so I could watch movies during power
outages. It works great for that. Doesn't take up much space, has good
sound quality, and the battery lasts a long time. The bluetooth connection
doesn't work right (buzzy audio), but it's easy enough to connect a wired
cable to the laptop.

As I said, there are many other powered speakers that can take memory cards
or USB drives. Shop around.

I wonder if any of these bluetooth things come with a power adaptor to
plug into a vehicle cig lighter socket?

They'll have a charging port. It would just be a matter of finding the
right cable and/or adapters to plug it into the lighter socket.

Anthony Watson

I was at Walmart again yesterday. I dont really intend to buy from them,
but I was looking at their car stereos. I have not really read about car
stereos in years and I was surprised to see that they have the ability
to play MP3s right from a USB flash drive, and also have an AUX input
for any audio source. One in particular I read the box, (Pioneer brand),
is AM, FM, CD, AUX, USB, and Bluetooth, plus has some sort of special
(thing) to connect a smartphone. (I dont use a smartphone, so that I did
not understand).

However, I still dont quite understand what the bluetooth does... I know
phones have that. Even my old flip phone, but how that has anything to
do with music is beyond me. If those car stereos have USB and the
ability to play music directly from a flash drive, that's all I need.
Heck, a 16GB flash drive holds over 5 times more music than my 3GB MP3
player.


The bluetooth on the radio allows it to link with your phone. You can
make phone calls using the radio speakers, mute the music
automatically etc and most will allow you to play music from the phone
through the radio speakers. With a smart phone that could also be
Pandora or I heart radio.

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 12:18:58 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:
That reminds me of the time I tried to replace the mono radio in my
1966 lay-down Rambler with an after-market stereo AM/FM/Cassette unit.
Imagine my surprise when I opened up the dashboard and found that AMC
had used a radio with the face on the "bottom" and installed the radio
"standing up". Let's call it a vertical radio instead of your standard
horizontal radio.
http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/cf/a9/5a2f_35.JPG

I worked as a car stereo installer back in the late 80's or early 90's. I
saw a lot of weird radio configurations, but that's one I never saw before.
Very interesting!

I ended up mounting an under-dash Pioneer Super Tuner with a Y-cable for
the antenna and a switch to transfer the speakers between the deck and the
OEM Radio. The Pioneer did not have station presets or AM. My dad drove the
Rambler sometimes and he preferred the simplicity of the OEM radio. In
addition, AM was the only place to listen to sports back then so I used
it also.

Are you old enough to remember these?

http://cdn.speednik.com/files/2016/0...2_06-40-27.jpg

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 10:34:50 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:
I have not really read about car stereos in years and I was surprised
to see that they have the ability to play MP3s right from a USB flash
drive, and also have an AUX input for any audio source. One in
particular I read the box, (Pioneer brand), is AM, FM, CD, AUX, USB,
and Bluetooth

Yep, those are fairly typical features for most stereo systems.

I still dont quite understand what the bluetooth does.

It's basically just a wireless communication protocol that lets different
devices talk to each other.

For instance, you could play songs on your smart phone and have them
played over your car stereo via the wireless bluetooth connection.
Essentially like connecting a cable via the AUX input, only without the
wires.

Personally, I would rather put songs on a USB drive, but many folks have
everything on their smart phones.

Well, it's not that everything is *on* our smartphones as much as so
much is available *through* our smartphones.

Pandora for music, Tune-In Radio (and others) for streaming radio,
hundreds if not thousands of sites offering podcasts of every shape
and size, YouTube, etc.

I have Bluetooth and a magnetic vent mount in my van. I get in the van,
and slap the phone *onto* (not into) the mount. A few seconds later it
connects to Bluetooth.

It's similar to this...slap and drive, grab and go.

https://img.grouponcdn.com/deal/2ryy...1/c700x420.jpg

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 14:34:36 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I don't know about current stereos (ours are about 10-15 years old) but
ours are limited to 4GB flash drives. That's still a lot of music in a
tiny package. You could always carry multiple flash drives if that's too
limiting.

Our stereos are limited to MP3 files but I think newer ones support other
formats like WMA, AAC, and FLAC.

I keep saying I'm going to upgrade my ancient stereo to one with a USB
port. Unfortunately, every stereo on the market these days uses a knob
for the volume control. My car rides fairly rough so trying to make small
adjustments while bouncing around is kind of difficult. Worse yet, the
volume knobs usually have different functions when you push them in, so I
really mess things up when I hit a bump. My old Alpine stereo had
separate volume up and volume down buttons, much easier to use with a
stiff suspension. But, I don't really drive much anymore and generally
only listen to the radio anyway. Low priority.

Just as examples, here are some cheap car stereos with USB ports that may
work for you:

https://www.amazon.com/JVC-KDR670-CD...6/ref=sr_1_228

https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-DEH-X...-Din-Receiver-
Internet/dp/B01463VCMG/ref=sr_1_236

https://www.amazon.com/kenwood-KDC122U-Receiver-Front-
USB/dp/B00PWX9TJS/ref=sr_1_252


Anthony Watson

These car stereos sure have changed since I last looked at them, years
ago. Of those Amazon links you provided, that Pioneer one looks just
like the one I was looking at, at Walmart. (or a very similar model).
Walmart price was $5 higher. It said formats were MP3 and WMA (I think
WMA is "Windows Media Player). That stereo also has a remote control.

It also mentioned Pandora, which I had no idea what that was until I
looked it up. Stuff like that wont do me any good. I have no intention
to get a smartphone, based on the cost. My prepaid Tracfone is all I
need. Initially I only got a cellphone for emergency use in my car, and
it has paid for itself many times over, particularly when I had a brake
lockup and start on fire, not to mention calling in emergencies for
other people. And lately I tend to make regular calls in it, like to
call someone and tell them I'm on my way, or call a business to see if
they have the car part I need, and so on. My flip phone also has access
to weather radar maps and other useful stuff. But I see no need to spend
a fortune to own a smart phone. If I really need internet while I'm on
the road, I take my laptop and can get WIFI at most fast food places.
For about $100 a year, I have my Tracfone, and actually have to make
some "regular calls" or I accumulate too many minutes.

Anyhow, I'd be happy just having a car stereo that plays music from
flash drives. Cds are a big pain to deal with in the car. They get into
the wrong boxes and fall off the seat and get damaged, and I'm still
limited to 10 to 20 songs until I pull over and change the CD. I could
easily see putting several hundred songs on flash drives and could make
several of them, for example, "oldies" "rock" "country", etc... (I do
hope they have exceeded the 4gb limit though. I dont see any flashdrives
smaller than 16gb even sold in the stores anymore). In fact Walmart had
16gb drives for $4 yesterday, so I bought several of them.

One thing I still dont understand is how to determine what stereos will
fit in my 1996 Plymouth Voyager. (or any car). That Pioneer is 1 DIN, I
think it's the JVC that says it's 2 DIN. I have no clue what will fit in
my car. There must be some website or other way to look up specific
cars. Because of this alone, I'd rather spend the extra $5 and buy it
from Walmart, or go to the big city and see what places like Best Buy
have. At least I can return it, and I'd likely remove my factory stereo
right in their parking lot (takes 10 minutes or less), and make sure it
will fit.

I can relate to the "stiff suspension" issue when I drive my truck, but
my car is a pretty good ride... Either way, it would take some getting
used to it, to learn how to operate it, but when I first got this car,
it took a while to learn how to use the factory radio too, since this
was the first car stereo I ever had with a CD and using that SCAN
button, setting the presets and the clock were a challenge. I'm still
used to the old radios that had a volume, tone, and a tuning knob, and 5
push buttons, and little more other than an AM-FM switch.


Thanks for all your help!

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 14:09:33 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

There was some sort of car radio from wayyyyy back, that had the
amplifier portion of the radio separate from the tuner. This was a
tube set, and probably from the 50s or early 60s.

I never saw a two part radio like that, but I did pull out a few tube
tuners. Big heavy boat anchors.

Back then the "standard" radio opening had a hole on each side for the
volume and tuner knobs and a smaller rectangular opening for the radio
dial. Installing a modern stereo in those cars meant cutting sheet metal.

Today I think you can buy "retro" radios that will fit the old openings
without cutting metal. New electronics in the old format.

Honestly, I haven't kept up with current car stereo's. The last stereo I
bought was over 15 years ago.

Anthony Watson

The last car stereo I bought was probably more like 40 years ago. In
fact back in the mid 70's I briefly worked for CB radio store and
installed them in cars, but several times I had to install car stereos
too. But they were like you describe, "a hole on each side for the
volume and tuner knobs and a smaller rectangular opening for the radio
dial." Besides a CB, I bought a car stereo from my boss at cost back
then.

I've learned a lot from this thread and from following up by looking at
this stuff in the stores and online. It's a whole different world when
it comes to them now.....

Thank God the old days of cutting sheet metal are gone.... Of course
dashboards are no longer made of metal anyhow.... And all that wire
splicing and soldering was a major pain back then....

PaintedCow:

4GB is 2000 news. You can get 16 and 32Gig
thumbs now!

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 04:18:44 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

That reminds me of the time I tried to replace the mono radio in my
1966 lay-down Rambler with an after-market stereo AM/FM/Cassette unit.
Imagine my surprise when I opened up the dashboard and found that AMC
had used a radio with the face on the "bottom" and installed the radio
"standing up". Let's call it a vertical radio instead of your standard
horizontal radio.
http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/cf/a9/5a2f_35.JPG

I worked as a car stereo installer back in the late 80's or early 90's. I
saw a lot of weird radio configurations, but that's one I never saw before.
Very interesting!

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com
Lots of AMCs also used a vertical dial. Nothing like the round dial
in a mid-fifties ford.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 13:57:54 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

PaintedCow:

4GB is 2000 news. You can get 16 and 32Gig
thumbs now!

If you had 32g of music the average driver could drive a year and
never hear the same song twice.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 04:41:40 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 04:18:44 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

That reminds me of the time I tried to replace the mono radio in my
1966 lay-down Rambler with an after-market stereo AM/FM/Cassette unit.
Imagine my surprise when I opened up the dashboard and found that AMC
had used a radio with the face on the "bottom" and installed the radio
"standing up". Let's call it a vertical radio instead of your standard
horizontal radio.
http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/cf/a9/5a2f_35.JPG

I worked as a car stereo installer back in the late 80's or early 90's. I
saw a lot of weird radio configurations, but that's one I never saw before.
Very interesting!

Anthony Watson

There was some sort of car radio from wayyyyy back, that had the
amplifier portion of the radio separate from the tuner. This was a tube
set, and probably from the 50s or early 60s.

When I was in my teens, I belonged to a group of kids that liked
electronics, and the old guy who ran the group was a Ham Oprerator and
he had piles of old radios, tvs and other gear. I remember asking him
about that unusual radio, but I dont recall what kind of car it was
from.
The radio in the '49 Stude pickup on the farm had a head unit that
fit in the dash that had the dial and the controls - with a cable like
a speedo cable connecting the head to the tuner in the remote box on
the firewall.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 14:09:33 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

There was some sort of car radio from wayyyyy back, that had the
amplifier portion of the radio separate from the tuner. This was a
tube set, and probably from the 50s or early 60s.

I never saw a two part radio like that, but I did pull out a few tube
tuners. Big heavy boat anchors.

Back then the "standard" radio opening had a hole on each side for the
volume and tuner knobs and a smaller rectangular opening for the radio
dial. Installing a modern stereo in those cars meant cutting sheet metal.

Today I think you can buy "retro" radios that will fit the old openings
without cutting metal. New electronics in the old format.

Honestly, I haven't kept up with current car stereo's. The last stereo I
bought was over 15 years ago.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com


You can have a brand new AM FM radio installed inside your existing
radio case, using a modified original type dial OR an LCD digital
display. Several companies around doing the job. They put aux in on
them and some even get USB.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 14:34:36 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I have not really read about car stereos in years and I was surprised
to see that they have the ability to play MP3s right from a USB flash
drive, and also have an AUX input for any audio source. One in
particular I read the box, (Pioneer brand), is AM, FM, CD, AUX, USB,
and Bluetooth

Yep, those are fairly typical features for most stereo systems.

I still dont quite understand what the bluetooth does.

It's basically just a wireless communication protocol that lets different
devices talk to each other.

For instance, you could play songs on your smart phone and have them
played over your car stereo via the wireless bluetooth connection.
Essentially like connecting a cable via the AUX input, only without the
wires.

Personally, I would rather put songs on a USB drive, but many folks have
everything on their smart phones.

If those car stereos have USB and the ability to play music directly
from a flash drive, that's all I need. Heck, a 16GB flash drive holds
over 5 times more music than my 3GB MP3 player.

My wife and daughter both have stereos with USB ports. They load up music
on a tiny USB drive, then plug it into their car stereo. Much more music
than a CD and no skips. We haven't played a CD in our cars for years.

I don't know about current stereos (ours are about 10-15 years old) but
ours are limited to 4GB flash drives. That's still a lot of music in a
tiny package. You could always carry multiple flash drives if that's too
limiting.


Mine takes a 16 for sure - have not tried anything bigger



Our stereos are limited to MP3 files but I think newer ones support other
formats like WMA, AAC, and FLAC.

I keep saying I'm going to upgrade my ancient stereo to one with a USB
port. Unfortunately, every stereo on the market these days uses a knob
for the volume control. My car rides fairly rough so trying to make small
adjustments while bouncing around is kind of difficult. Worse yet, the
volume knobs usually have different functions when you push them in, so I
really mess things up when I hit a bump. My old Alpine stereo had
separate volume up and volume down buttons, much easier to use with a
stiff suspension. But, I don't really drive much anymore and generally
only listen to the radio anyway. Low priorit

Many don't use any knobs any more. Push a button for up or down volume
- same for tuning.

Just as examples, here are some cheap car stereos with USB ports that may
work for you:

https://www.amazon.com/JVC-KDR670-CD...6/ref=sr_1_228

https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-DEH-X...-Din-Receiver-
Internet/dp/B01463VCMG/ref=sr_1_236

https://www.amazon.com/kenwood-KDC122U-Receiver-Front-
USB/dp/B00PWX9TJS/ref=sr_1_252


Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 15:00:30 -0400, wrote:


One thing I still dont understand is how to determine what stereos will
fit in my 1996 Plymouth Voyager. (or any car). That Pioneer is 1 DIN, I
think it's the JVC that says it's 2 DIN. I have no clue what will fit in
my car. There must be some website or other way to look up specific
cars. Because of this alone, I'd rather spend the extra $5 and buy it
from Walmart, or go to the big city and see what places like Best Buy
have. At least I can return it, and I'd likely remove my factory stereo
right in their parking lot (takes 10 minutes or less), and make sure it
will fit.

A double din will fit the 1996 Mopar with the right kit. So will a
single, with the right kit. The original monster is almost a double
din size, but not exact, which is why the adapter is required.

Not hard to find the info with Google.

I can relate to the "stiff suspension" issue when I drive my truck, but
my car is a pretty good ride... Either way, it would take some getting
used to it, to learn how to operate it, but when I first got this car,
it took a while to learn how to use the factory radio too, since this
was the first car stereo I ever had with a CD and using that SCAN
button, setting the presets and the clock were a challenge. I'm still
used to the old radios that had a volume, tone, and a tuning knob, and 5
push buttons, and little more other than an AM-FM switch.


Thanks for all your help!

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 8:30:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 04:18:44 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

That reminds me of the time I tried to replace the mono radio in my
1966 lay-down Rambler with an after-market stereo AM/FM/Cassette unit.
Imagine my surprise when I opened up the dashboard and found that AMC
had used a radio with the face on the "bottom" and installed the radio
"standing up". Let's call it a vertical radio instead of your standard
horizontal radio.
http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/cf/a9/5a2f_35.JPG

I worked as a car stereo installer back in the late 80's or early 90's. I
saw a lot of weird radio configurations, but that's one I never saw before.
Very interesting!

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com
Lots of AMCs also used a vertical dial. Nothing like the round dial
in a mid-fifties ford.

AMC used a lot weird stuff. I was never sure if they designed their
vehicles around other manufacturer's parts or if they designed their
vehicles first and then found parts to fit ;-)

If I recall correctly, there was more than one starter listed for my '66
Ambassador 990, each with a different bolt pattern.

My favorite: The vacuum booster pump cap for the fuel pump to keep the
windshield wiper speed fairly constant while accelerating. My booster pump
died so I just bypassed it. Getting on the expressway during a rainstorm
was always an adventure. Thank God for Rain-X!

On 09/27/2016 07:32 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
AMC used a lot weird stuff. I was never sure if they designed their
vehicles around other manufacturer's parts or if they designed their
vehicles first and then found parts to fit ;-)

For a while the family ride was a '62 Rambler Classic and that's what I
did most of my learning to drive on. My father had fallen for George
Romney's practical car pitch and that it had 15" wheels when the
industry was going to 14's. Never cared much for Romney's after that
trauma. I was happy when it was replaced by a '65 Dodge although I would
have been a lot happier with a '65 Mustang.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 18:32:10 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:


AMC used a lot weird stuff. I was never sure if they designed their
vehicles around other manufacturer's parts or if they designed their
vehicles first and then found parts to fit ;-)

If I recall correctly, there was more than one starter listed for my '66
Ambassador 990, each with a different bolt pattern.

My favorite: The vacuum booster pump cap for the fuel pump to keep the
windshield wiper speed fairly constant while accelerating. My booster pump
died so I just bypassed it. Getting on the expressway during a rainstorm
was always an adventure. Thank God for Rain-X!

I had a couple AMCs, a 72 Jeep when they owned the brand and a 71
Gremlin, I got as a gift (AKA broke down in my driveway and
abandoned). The Gremlin had that 232ci 6 that fouled the #5 plug about
every 2000 miles. You could just clean it and put it right back in. A
new one fouled just about as fast. I got to the point where I could
swap the plug at a long light. I kept a handful in the glove
compartment. It was basically a POS car but I still put 50,000 miles
on it and sold it for $500. I tossed the factory radio right away and
put in a JIL AM/FM/8 track, CB.
I do think they cobbled together a lot of off the shelf parts. The
transmission was a Borg Warner, Ignition was Delco but the engines
were AMC.
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/gremlin2.jpg

DerbyDad03 has brought this to us :
On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 8:30:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 04:18:44 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

That reminds me of the time I tried to replace the mono radio in my
1966 lay-down Rambler with an after-market stereo AM/FM/Cassette unit.
Imagine my surprise when I opened up the dashboard and found that AMC
had used a radio with the face on the "bottom" and installed the radio
"standing up". Let's call it a vertical radio instead of your standard
horizontal radio.
http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/cf/a9/5a2f_35.JPG

I worked as a car stereo installer back in the late 80's or early 90's. I
saw a lot of weird radio configurations, but that's one I never saw before.
Very interesting!

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com
Lots of AMCs also used a vertical dial. Nothing like the round dial
in a mid-fifties ford.

AMC used a lot weird stuff. I was never sure if they designed their
vehicles around other manufacturer's parts or if they designed their
vehicles first and then found parts to fit ;-)

If I recall correctly, there was more than one starter listed for my '66
Ambassador 990, each with a different bolt pattern.

My favorite: The vacuum booster pump cap for the fuel pump to keep the
windshield wiper speed fairly constant while accelerating. My booster pump
died so I just bypassed it. Getting on the expressway during a rainstorm
was always an adventure. Thank God for Rain-X!

Ah, thanks for mentioning that. I inherited my grandfather's Rambler
and when I took a trip from Keene, NH to East Blue Hill, ME I
discovered that the windshield wipers only worked when it wasn't
raining.

40 years later and I'm starting to understand what that was.

It said formats were MP3 and WMA

Ours are limited to those formats too. Personally, I've never used WMA for
anything and prefer to convert other formats to MP3 for the best
compatibility with multiple devices.

That stereo also has a remote control.

I've never understood the reason for a remote control in a car stereo. All
of the controls are at my reach on the head unit already.

I suppose it could be handy if you're in the back seat with your sweetie.


I have no intention to get a smartphone, based on the cost.
My prepaid Tracfone is all I need.

You might check out Tracfone's latest offerings. I have Tracfone too and
upgraded to an LG Ultimate 2 L41C last year. It may not be bleeding edge
stuff but it's certainly smart enough for my needs. Sure beats the old flip
phone.

I have my Tracfone, and actually have to make some "regular calls"
or I accumulate too many minutes.

Yeah, I've got 100's of voice minutes that I never use, and Tracfone
doesn't make it easy to just buy service hours. So I end up adding minutes
every year when I don't need them just so I can add service time.

I do hope they have exceeded the 4gb limit though.

I haven't tried it, but I think it will accept a larger drive, it just
won't access more than 4GB.

In any case, that's hundreds of songs and hours of music. Unless you're
taking a road trip, you won't be able to listen to all of the songs on the
drive.

One thing I still dont understand is how to determine what stereos
will fit in my 1996 Plymouth Voyager.

Amazon sells an install kit (adapter plate) for your car for single DIN
radios. So any single DIN stereo should fit, given enough depth behind the
dash (you would probably need to remove the old stereo and measure it, then
compare the new stereo's specifications).

Thanks for all your help!

No problem. I'm happy to help.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

4GB is 2000 news. You can get 16 and 32Gig
thumbs now!

If you've got a spare $650 you can get 1TB flash drives now.

https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Data...-Predator-1TB-
DTHXP30/dp/B00E65QM8O/ref=sr_1_6

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

I keep saying I'm going to upgrade my ancient stereo to one with a USB
port. Unfortunately, every stereo on the market these days uses a knob
for the volume control. My car rides fairly rough so trying to make
small adjustments while bouncing around is kind of difficult. Worse
yet, the volume knobs usually have different functions when you push
them in, so I really mess things up when I hit a bump. My old
Alpine stereo had separate volume up and volume down buttons, much
easier to use with a stiff suspension. But, I don't really drive much
anymore and generally only listen to the radio anyway. Low priorit

Many don't use any knobs any more. Push a button for up or down volume
- same for tuning.

Do you have links for any of these? I haven't seen anything (in the single
DIN format) in the last 5 years or so that didn't use a knob for the volume
control. Except maybe for some budget off brands.

Then again, I haven't really been looking very much.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com