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#41
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:33:46 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
We now have an oxygen concentrator in our house and it is noisy. What have any of you seen or done to reduce the sound output from one of these machines? www.invacare.com/Platinum_10_Concentrator Thanks. Have a couple of friends on oxygen. In a bible study or church, their machines are very disturbing to those around them by preventing them from hearing the speaker(s. Certainly don't want to discourage their participation, but would like suggestions on reducing their sound of operation. |
#43
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 01/19/2020 05:21 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
What a bunch of compassionate hypocrites at a bible study. Evidently you never learned anything from it. WWJD? Heal them... |
#44
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 19:21:13 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Machines make noise. This brings to mind something I've wondered about the past few years. We can increase efficiency in internal combustion engines by supercharging. Would it not also increase efficiency by a factor of 5 by eliminating the ~80% inert nitrogen in the intake manifold? For sure, an oxygen concentrator would take away some power, but then superchargers do so as well. They seem to be worth the extra weight as well, all things considered. |
#45
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:33:46 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote: We now have an oxygen concentrator in our house and it is noisy. What have any of you seen or done to reduce the sound output from one of these machines? www.invacare.com/Platinum_10_Concentrator Thanks. Have a couple of friends on oxygen. In a bible study or church, their machines are very disturbing to those around them by preventing them from hearing the speaker(s. Certainly don't want to discourage their participation, but would like suggestions on reducing their sound of operation. A muffler. A blanket, bag, something that does not block any venting. If a vent, a hand sewn vent extension right angle to vent, made out of a quilted cloth. Greg |
#46
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 1/19/20 5:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:33:46 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote: We now have an oxygen concentrator in our house and it is noisy. What have any of you seen or done to reduce the sound output from one of these machines? www.invacare.com/Platinum_10_Concentrator Thanks. Have a couple of friends on oxygen. In a bible study or church, their machines are very disturbing to those around them by preventing them from hearing the speaker(s. Certainly don't want to discourage their participation, but would like suggestions on reducing their sound of operation. Set the concentrators in something like a wicker laundry basket or clothes hamper? |
#47
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
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#48
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 1/20/2020 1:04 AM, Mike Duffy wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 19:21:13 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote: Machines make noise. This brings to mind something I've wondered about the past few years. We can increase efficiency in internal combustion engines by supercharging. Would it not also increase efficiency by a factor of 5 by eliminating the ~80% inert nitrogen in the intake manifold? For sure, an oxygen concentrator would take away some power, but then superchargers do so as well. They seem to be worth the extra weight as well, all things considered. What exactly to you think a concentrator does? In concentrates oxygen by eliminating nitrogen. So you are suggesting a concentrator feeds a concentrator? There are silent portable systems that can go 8 hours on a small tank. Given to Medicare reimbursement to the supplier most are not going to give an additional $3500 in equipment and get nothing back. There is also liquid tanks but they have to be filled about every 7 days, not at all profitable. |
#49
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:25:23 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
What exactly to you think a concentrator does? In concentrates oxygen by eliminating nitrogen. So you are suggesting a concentrator feeds a concentrator? I'm not clear on your point. I suggest that the air intake for the engine take in straight oxygen instead of air (21% oxygen). If you wanted, you could also compress the oxygen with a supercharger. Is that what you are getting at? Supercharged or not, with 100% oxygen, for the same size of cylinder you can inject 5 times the amount of fuel. That should give 5 times the horsepower for the same engine weight. Probably there will be other engineering considerations, like burning holes through the pistons. But it seems an avenue worth exploring. I'm just curious about why nobody has ever tried it. |
#50
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 1:04:12 AM UTC-5, Mike Duffy wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 19:21:13 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote: Machines make noise. This brings to mind something I've wondered about the past few years. We can increase efficiency in internal combustion engines by supercharging. Would it not also increase efficiency by a factor of 5 by eliminating the ~80% inert nitrogen in the intake manifold? For sure, an oxygen concentrator would take away some power, but then superchargers do so as well. They seem to be worth the extra weight as well, all things considered. AFAIK, they just get more power out of the same size engine by getting more air/fuel mix into the same displacement. But if that's the efficiency effect, ie getting more power from the same size engine, then yes, feeding it pure oxygen should do the same thing. You could put more fuel/air mix in the same space. |
#51
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 1/20/2020 10:58 AM, Mike Duffy wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:25:23 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote: What exactly to you think a concentrator does? In concentrates oxygen by eliminating nitrogen. So you are suggesting a concentrator feeds a concentrator? I'm not clear on your point. I suggest that the air intake for the engine take in straight oxygen instead of air (21% oxygen). If you wanted, you could also compress the oxygen with a supercharger. Is that what you are getting at? Supercharged or not, with 100% oxygen, for the same size of cylinder you can inject 5 times the amount of fuel. That should give 5 times the horsepower for the same engine weight. Probably there will be other engineering considerations, like burning holes through the pistons. But it seems an avenue worth exploring. I'm just curious about why nobody has ever tried it. OK, misunderstood you. Would be interesting to see. Theoretically you may be right but getting that much oxygen for a sustained time is probably the biggest obstacle to overcome. |
#52
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 10:58:10 AM UTC-5, Mike Duffy wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:25:23 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote: What exactly to you think a concentrator does? In concentrates oxygen by eliminating nitrogen. So you are suggesting a concentrator feeds a concentrator? I'm not clear on your point. I suggest that the air intake for the engine take in straight oxygen instead of air (21% oxygen). If you wanted, you could also compress the oxygen with a supercharger. Is that what you are getting at? Supercharged or not, with 100% oxygen, for the same size of cylinder you can inject 5 times the amount of fuel. That should give 5 times the horsepower for the same engine weight. Probably there will be other engineering considerations, like burning holes through the pistons. But it seems an avenue worth exploring. I'm just curious about why nobody has ever tried it. Probably because there is no practical, cost effective way to produce the required oxygen. What would the required flow rate have to be compared to the flow rate from one of those portable O2 units? IDK what you're gaining for common applications, eg powering cars. You'd be getting a smaller engine size in return for space, cost and power taken up by an O2 generator, another system. I guess one place to start would be to see how much O2 one of those portables makes and if you used it to just replace some of the air, how much more power you could get from the same engine. If it's some reasonable amount, then maybe it has merit. |
#53
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 1/20/2020 11:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 10:58:10 AM UTC-5, Mike Duffy wrote: On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:25:23 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote: What exactly to you think a concentrator does? In concentrates oxygen by eliminating nitrogen. So you are suggesting a concentrator feeds a concentrator? I'm not clear on your point. I suggest that the air intake for the engine take in straight oxygen instead of air (21% oxygen). If you wanted, you could also compress the oxygen with a supercharger. Is that what you are getting at? Supercharged or not, with 100% oxygen, for the same size of cylinder you can inject 5 times the amount of fuel. That should give 5 times the horsepower for the same engine weight. Probably there will be other engineering considerations, like burning holes through the pistons. But it seems an avenue worth exploring. I'm just curious about why nobody has ever tried it. Probably because there is no practical, cost effective way to produce the required oxygen. What would the required flow rate have to be compared to the flow rate from one of those portable O2 units? IDK what you're gaining for common applications, eg powering cars. You'd be getting a smaller engine size in return for space, cost and power taken up by an O2 generator, another system. I guess one place to start would be to see how much O2 one of those portables makes and if you used it to just replace some of the air, how much more power you could get from the same engine. If it's some reasonable amount, then maybe it has merit. I think you have to carry LOX and have limited range. Could make a hell of a dragster though. |
#54
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
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#55
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 1/20/2020 12:00 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says... I think you have to carry LOX and have limited range. Could make a hell of a dragster though. They have been injecting nitrous oxide in engines for years. Stock engines can take a small bost and engines with heaver duty parts can take more. As always the problem is storing enough in the car to go for a long distance. The nitro seems to be stable and not flamable before it reaches over 500 deg F and then the oxygen seperates out and you can inject more fuel in the engine for more power. The concentrators seperates the oxygen in air from the nitrogen. Probably would take a big concentrator to be useful in a car. I think size is the problem as the car would need far more oxygen than a human. I can't find the different requirements but it does sound interesting. There are large concentrators. Power for the concentrator would come off the engine. |
#56
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 01/20/2020 08:58 AM, Mike Duffy wrote:
Probably there will be other engineering considerations, like burning holes through the pistons. But it seems an avenue worth exploring. I'm just curious about why nobody has ever tried it. It's easy enough to destroy your engine and drivetrain with nitrous without getting that exotic. |
#57
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 01/20/2020 10:25 AM, Frank wrote:
I think size is the problem as the car would need far more oxygen than a human. I can't find the different requirements but it does sound interesting. There are large concentrators. Power for the concentrator would come off the engine. And might consume as much power as it produced. |
#58
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 01/20/2020 09:52 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I think you have to carry LOX and have limited range. Could make a hell of a dragster though. I imagine somebody tried it and found it wanting. https://www.dragzine.com/news/flashb...led-hydrazine/ Hey, if it works in a Titan II rocket it ought to work in a fuelie. Or maybe they were emulating a Me-163. Hydrazine, methanol, and 80% hydrogen peroxide. What's not to like? My physics TA was a drag racing fan. He liked to point out the textbook illustration of the maximum coefficient of friction and linear acceleration was getting bent at the strip. He also mentioned that if you were trying to adjust the CG on a commercial airliner depleted uranium was just the stuff. https://wise-uranium.org/ruxcw.html Another good reason not to fly. |
#59
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 19:27:23 -0700, rbowman wrote:
And might consume as much power as it produced. Might? I decided to perform a simple first order estimation: From https://www.usa.philips.com/healthca...specifications we get some basic specs on the concentrator: 4.1 Kg, 2 litres/min O2 produced, 120 W power consumed. (Also specified is O2 concentration 87% to 96%; I use 91% for calculation below marked with "&".) From https://www.gregraven.org/ho****er/c...irflow-hp.html we get (for a 1600 cc engine) the relation of 54 cubic feet per minute of normal air to make 78 horsepower. First, we figure out how many of the O2 concentrators we need: 54 cubic feet per minute = 1530 litres / min. If one O2 concentrator produces 2 litres / min, we need the equivalent of 765 O2 concentrators. These (or one big one) will weigh in at 3.1 metric tons (4.1 kg * 765), and require 120 W * 765 = 92 Kw = 122 hp. The power from the engine though, is 5 * 78 hp * 0.91 (&) = 335 hp. (The factor of 5 is the gain from using pure oxygen instead of air). But we need to subtract the 122 hp used by the concentrator, thus 233 hp. Effective 'gain' is 233 / 78 = 3.0 From http://blogs.youwheel.com/2014/04/14...ehensive-list/ We get an entry for a 1600 cc engine: VW flat-4 Type 1 250 1600cc dual port I have no idea of the actual power rating of this engine; I am only interested in the weight of 250 Kg. So the entire contraption (concentrator + engine) ends up wighing 3.35 metric tons (3.1 + 0.25). Total power available to wheels is increased by a factor of 3. Total weight is increased by a factor of 13.5 So on first glance, probably it won't work. But then again, one big concentrator should be more efficient than 765 small ones. If it could be made 4 or 5 times more efficient (13.5 / 3), we reach the break-even point. Then, we need to work out how not to burn holes through the engine head. |
#60
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 1/21/2020 1:48 AM, Mike Duffy wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 19:27:23 -0700, rbowman wrote: And might consume as much power as it produced. Might? I decided to perform a simple first order estimation: From https://www.usa.philips.com/healthca...specifications we get some basic specs on the concentrator: 4.1 Kg, 2 litres/min O2 produced, 120 W power consumed. (Also specified is O2 concentration 87% to 96%; I use 91% for calculation below marked with "&".) From https://www.gregraven.org/ho****er/c...irflow-hp.html we get (for a 1600 cc engine) the relation of 54 cubic feet per minute of normal air to make 78 horsepower. First, we figure out how many of the O2 concentrators we need: 54 cubic feet per minute = 1530 litres / min. If one O2 concentrator produces 2 litres / min, we need the equivalent of 765 O2 concentrators. These (or one big one) will weigh in at 3.1 metric tons (4.1 kg * 765), and require 120 W * 765 = 92 Kw = 122 hp. The power from the engine though, is 5 * 78 hp * 0.91 (&) = 335 hp. (The factor of 5 is the gain from using pure oxygen instead of air). But we need to subtract the 122 hp used by the concentrator, thus 233 hp. Effective 'gain' is 233 / 78 = 3.0 From http://blogs.youwheel.com/2014/04/14...ehensive-list/ We get an entry for a 1600 cc engine: VW flat-4 Type 1 250 1600cc dual port I have no idea of the actual power rating of this engine; I am only interested in the weight of 250 Kg. So the entire contraption (concentrator + engine) ends up wighing 3.35 metric tons (3.1 + 0.25). Total power available to wheels is increased by a factor of 3. Total weight is increased by a factor of 13.5 So on first glance, probably it won't work. But then again, one big concentrator should be more efficient than 765 small ones. If it could be made 4 or 5 times more efficient (13.5 / 3), we reach the break-even point. Then, we need to work out how not to burn holes through the engine head. Good analysis. I am also reminded of a Scotty Kilmer video reminding that if you turbocharge an engine you must remember they you need a beefed up drive train to adequately handle the extra power. |
#61
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 01/21/2020 06:52 AM, Frank wrote:
Good analysis. I am also reminded of a Scotty Kilmer video reminding that if you turbocharge an engine you must remember they you need a beefed up drive train to adequately handle the extra power. One of the down ticks for the Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ is the 2 liter engine. When asked why they don't turbocharge it Toyota answers it is well balanced as it is and more power would mean a redesign. Even the tuners say any engine work will need a beefier clutch. i wonder what the current trend towards smaller engines with boost will mean in longevity. It's not like a few decades ago when cars were over-engineered. |
#62
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 1/21/2020 9:50 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/21/2020 06:52 AM, Frank wrote: Good analysis.Â* I am also reminded of a Scotty Kilmer video reminding that if you turbocharge an engine you must remember they you need a beefed up drive train to adequately handle the extra power. One of the down ticks for the Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ is the 2 liter engine. When asked why they don't turbocharge it Toyota answers it is well balanced as it is and more power would mean a redesign. Even the tuners say any engine work will need a beefier clutch. i wonder what the current trend towards smaller engines with boost will mean in longevity. It's not like a few decades ago when cars were over-engineered. Did a quick google on this and engines are apparently OK for longevity but adding more parts like the turbocharger means more stuff that might break down. |
#63
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
In article , "frank says...
Did a quick google on this and engines are apparently OK for longevity but adding more parts like the turbocharger means more stuff that might break down. For common on the road usage I have always though the turbocharges and such was just more stuff to cause trouble. Just make the engine larger. I can see them for race cars where you want max performace for minimum weight and plan on rebuilding them after almost every race. |
#64
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On 1/21/2020 12:04 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , "frank says... Did a quick google on this and engines are apparently OK for longevity but adding more parts like the turbocharger means more stuff that might break down. For common on the road usage I have always though the turbocharges and such was just more stuff to cause trouble. Just make the engine larger. I can see them for race cars where you want max performace for minimum weight and plan on rebuilding them after almost every race. Some people like those jackrabbit starts but not for me. Car and Driver may not like my non-turbo Subaru but Consumer Reports loves it. |
#65
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Oxygen concentrator sound level
On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 at 12:04:14 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , "frank says... Did a quick google on this and engines are apparently OK for longevity but adding more parts like the turbocharger means more stuff that might break down. For common on the road usage I have always though the turbocharges and such was just more stuff to cause trouble. Just make the engine larger. I can see them for race cars where you want max performace for minimum weight and plan on rebuilding them after almost every race. I think the advantage is that the turbo is there to boost power when needed, but when not, the smaller engine gets better fuel economy. If you put a larger engine in to get the peak power, it would burn more fuel even at lower power output. And apparently reliability isn't that much of an issue. They are essentially two fans on a shaft and should last the life of the engine. |
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