In ,
Don Y typed:
On 2/29/2016 11:54 AM, TomR wrote:
. . . . ,
Meanwhile, one of my possible exterior door replacements would have
involved a door that is 84 inches high -- not the typical 80 inch
high doors that they make now. That would have meant ordering a
custom size door. And, since I would be ordering a custom size
metal door anyway, I thought that may mean that I could order a
custom metal door that was 35 3/4 inches wide and 79 3/4 inches high
to fit the existing opening. . . . . ,

?? 79.75 for an 84 inch door?

Good catch. Yes, a typo. I meant 83 3/4, not 79 3/4, for this situation.

On 02/29/2016 11:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/29/2016 9:36 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 08:49:36 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 2/29/2016 8:42 AM, wrote:
why not trim the door down by 1/4 inch on each side

You haven't mentioned the height of the doors, either.

Hard to trim METAL!

You will find they are all going to be a half inch smaller than the
nominal size

frown Then why is *bob's* (upthread) 36" (presumably closer than
half an inch to 36!)

Because the contention they're _all_ "nominal less half" is simply not
so...some prehungs are less-quarter and it's certainly possible to buy
and find full-width door slabs which will have finished openings
"nominal plus" clearance rather than the door being smaller.

The "less-half" varietal is probably the most common of new units
available now, but it isn't unique and certainly wasn't in the past, either.

--

On 02/29/2016 5:52 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/29/2016 6:42 PM, dpb wrote:

If you're trying to order a door slab to fit an existing opening, see
above as well, there's a whole lot more besides just the exterior
dimensions to worry about, especially if you're talking steel, not wood,
where field modification is much more of a trick...particularly things
like number, size, placement and setback of hinges, hole locations, etc,
etc., etc., ...

My guess is if he can figure out the original manufacturer he can just
order the direct replacement. I'd start by looking at Stanley since they
are the biggest.

I'm thinking he's trying to replace wood w/ steel just reading sorta'
between the multiple responses and inferring...and was hoping to just
hang a slab in place.

--

On 2/29/2016 4:42 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/29/2016 3:25 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/29/2016 2:18 PM, wrote:
....

Since we started here I have been measuring all the doors I see and
the answer I come up with is there is no standard.
I have anything from "right on" to a 1/2" smaller and one that is
about 1/4" smaller (steel door so I know it wasn't modified).
My guess is that manufactures make doors for standard rough openings
and the thickness they choose for the jam determines the actual door
size.

(for PREHUNG doors)

I am curious how building inspectors deal with clear opening sizes for
accessible routes since even a full size door is smaller because of
the stops.

I expect lots of variation on *interior* doors. But, I figured exterior
door would have far less wiggle room!

Nope as I told you some several responses above...they build to a RO and the
final interior opening turns out to be what it is--the two of -1/2" and -1/4"
are pretty common for width but the length (height) is also dependent upon
those factors plus how they design the threshold.

If you're trying to order a door slab to fit an existing opening, see above as
well, there's a whole lot more besides just the exterior dimensions to worry
about, especially if you're talking steel, not wood, where field modification
is much more of a trick...particularly things like number, size, placement and
setback of hinges, hole locations, etc, etc., etc., ...

You're missing the point.

It doesn't matter whether I'm looking to replace just the slab
(reusing existing frame) *or* replacing the entire frame (with
a prehung unit) -- if the RO is sized too narrow!

The remedy available to me is to replace/revise the buck; or,
fabricate a thinner jamb (assuming that to be a cheaper solution
than a custom 35.5" metal door).

I'm not keen on letting this turn into another long-winded
back-and-forth where we play 20 questions and roam around
visiting all sorts of different issues that MAY or MAY NOT
be pertinent.

"A stock 36 inches door is 36 inches -- whether a slab or
(effectively) when prepackaged in a prehung jamb"

That's all I need to know to sort out what I have to do...

On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 08:59:45 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Monday, February 29, 2016 at 10:36:32 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 2/29/2016 8:10 AM, TimR wrote:
Take your tape to Home Depot or Lowes. What size are those doors? (the
ones for sale, not the ones you walk through at the front of the store)

That will tell me what they *sell* but won't explain why the two
doors I observed (different homes, different widths, different
construction techniques) are "off".

If all doors are 35.5, then you have determined that a nominal 36 door is actually 35.5.

I find it unlikely a custom door is a half inch different.

Modern doors are always about 1/2" narrower than their listed size.
There has to be some gap around the door, and that 1/2" is your gap. The
INSIDE of the frame is the listed size (32" 34" 36", etc).

If you're replacing an entire door and frame, you need the OUTSIDE
measurements of the frame, an you make your rough opening about 3/4"
larger, so you can align the frame and apply the shims.

Some OLD doors were the actual listed size, but not always....
(Of course back then, the frames had to be 1/2" bigger than the listed
door size).

On 2/29/2016 4:43 PM, John wrote:
On 2/28/2016 11:12 PM, Don Y wrote:
Exterior door measures 35.5" wide. I assume this is a nominal 36"
door? Or, a ******* size acquired by developer when the home
was built?

(A neighbor's door is 31.5" wide which I would assume qualifies as
a 32" door]

Both are correct for the given situation.

If you are actually considering a new door the best idea is to have the place
that you intend to purchase the door have their guy come out and measure. Most
will charge for this but if you make the door purchase with them they will
deduct that charge from the purchase price and order (or take from stock if you
are lucky) a door to suit your needs. A mistake in measurement by you *will* be
expensive. If they make a measuring mistake then the onus on them.

Hiring it out will get pricey. The buck will have to be replaced (to
use a COTS door) *or*, a custom door ordered, *or* a custom jamb, etc.

In either case, we're looking at a fair bit of labor (time) and
folks tend not to like to work for free (or, for the sale of the door)

If you just want to take a flyer and 'do-it-yourself' then also consider door
height, left or right swing, hinge size and location and boring the door for
lockset and dead bolt yourself or having that done for you.

I'd originally considered just replacing with a prehung -- to eliminate
all the "fitting". But, the RO isn't wide enough to "simply" do so.

The next alternative was to leave the frame in place and swap the slab
out. This would require drilling the door to fit MY frame (so, I
don't save much on labor -- except I no longer have to remove the frame!)

But, the 35.5" confounds on that score -- unless I start inspecting
individual prehung offerings hoping to find a 35.5" door that I can
REMOVE from its frame and coerce into *my* frame! Then, I've got a
35.5" door drilled for *it's* prehung frame that I have to HOPE I can
fit to my EXISTING frame.

(too many things have to fall into place for this to be a joyous outcome)

On 03/01/2016 9:44 AM, Don Y wrote:
....

It doesn't matter whether I'm looking to replace just the slab
(reusing existing frame) *or* replacing the entire frame (with
a prehung unit) -- if the RO is sized too narrow!

The remedy available to me is to replace/revise the buck; or,
fabricate a thinner jamb (assuming that to be a cheaper solution
than a custom 35.5" metal door).

I'm not keen on letting this turn into another long-winded
back-and-forth where we play 20 questions and roam around
visiting all sorts of different issues that MAY or MAY NOT
be pertinent.

"A stock 36 inches door is 36 inches -- whether a slab or
(effectively) when prepackaged in a prehung jamb"

That's all I need to know to sort out what I have to do...

Excepting it already has in large part owing to your reluctance to
outline the actual objective and specifics of the condition.

We've already established that nominal 36" doors aren't necessarily
either 36" _or_ 35.5" and that you can undoubtedly find either. That
still leaves open all the other dimensions and details that are just as
important as far as what would have to be done to make a swap.

I'd think the likelihood the RO is too narrow pretty low but it is
possible, yes. Have you done enough exploratory work to know what the
RO dimensions actually are? You may be making mountains from molehills
and the simplest solution is to simply rip out the old and put in a new
prehung stock unit.

--

On 03/01/2016 9:52 AM, Don Y wrote:
....

I'd originally considered just replacing with a prehung -- to eliminate
all the "fitting". But, the RO isn't wide enough to "simply" do so.

The next alternative was to leave the frame in place and swap the slab
out. This would require drilling the door to fit MY frame (so, I
don't save much on labor -- except I no longer have to remove the frame!)

But, the 35.5" confounds on that score -- unless I start inspecting
individual prehung offerings hoping to find a 35.5" door that I can
REMOVE from its frame and coerce into *my* frame! Then, I've got a
35.5" door drilled for *it's* prehung frame that I have to HOPE I can
fit to my EXISTING frame.

(too many things have to fall into place for this to be a joyous outcome)

Ah, we're finally getting down to cases...have you actually determined
the RO dimensions and if so, what are they?

--

On 3/1/2016 9:07 AM, dpb wrote:
On 03/01/2016 9:44 AM, Don Y wrote:
....

It doesn't matter whether I'm looking to replace just the slab
(reusing existing frame) *or* replacing the entire frame (with
a prehung unit) -- if the RO is sized too narrow!

The remedy available to me is to replace/revise the buck; or,
fabricate a thinner jamb (assuming that to be a cheaper solution
than a custom 35.5" metal door).

I'm not keen on letting this turn into another long-winded
back-and-forth where we play 20 questions and roam around
visiting all sorts of different issues that MAY or MAY NOT
be pertinent.

"A stock 36 inches door is 36 inches -- whether a slab or
(effectively) when prepackaged in a prehung jamb"

That's all I need to know to sort out what I have to do...

Excepting it already has in large part owing to your reluctance to outline the
actual objective and specifics of the condition.

We've already established that nominal 36" doors aren't necessarily either 36"
_or_ 35.5" and that you can undoubtedly find either. That still leaves open
all the other dimensions and details that are just as important as far as what
would have to be done to make a swap.

I'd think the likelihood the RO is too narrow pretty low but it is possible,
yes. Have you done enough exploratory work to know what the RO dimensions
actually are? You may be making mountains from molehills and the simplest
solution is to simply rip out the old and put in a new prehung stock unit.

I can trace the grout lines to know how large the opening in the
*masonry* is. I can see where the door "begins". I can do simple math
to determine how wide the buck+frame are.

I can then examine the "assembled dimensions" of prehung doors to see
how they would fit.

Ripping out the old leaves me with a large, person sized hole in
the house that needs to be filled before the next nightfall. I'm
sure as hell not keen on doing that just to "gather data".

I'm an engineer; I can look at numbers on a piece of paper and
sort out how things will (or won't!) work without having to
"try it and see!"

On 3/1/2016 9:09 AM, dpb wrote:
On 03/01/2016 9:52 AM, Don Y wrote:
....

I'd originally considered just replacing with a prehung -- to eliminate
all the "fitting". But, the RO isn't wide enough to "simply" do so.

The next alternative was to leave the frame in place and swap the slab
out. This would require drilling the door to fit MY frame (so, I
don't save much on labor -- except I no longer have to remove the frame!)

But, the 35.5" confounds on that score -- unless I start inspecting
individual prehung offerings hoping to find a 35.5" door that I can
REMOVE from its frame and coerce into *my* frame! Then, I've got a
35.5" door drilled for *it's* prehung frame that I have to HOPE I can
fit to my EXISTING frame.

(too many things have to fall into place for this to be a joyous outcome)

Ah, we're finally getting down to cases...have you actually determined the RO
dimensions and if so, what are they?

Hey, I'm out of here. As I said upthread, I have no desire to play
data collection grunt for armchair, remote "pondering" as to how
I should proceed.

Thanks for your time but the question asked has been answered.
I can now look at ALL of my options and sort out how best for
me to proceed without "try this" sort of advice.

[No, I don't care to explain all the OTHER options that I have so someone
else can comment on how appropriate they may or may not be.]

Sorry, I don't mean to be "short" and I appreciate the comments -- from
all. But, these things tend to drag on BEYOND what is necessary (at
least what's necessary for *me* to sort out how to proceed).

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 11:10:20 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 03/01/2016 9:52 AM, Don Y wrote:
...

I'd originally considered just replacing with a prehung -- to eliminate
all the "fitting". But, the RO isn't wide enough to "simply" do so.

The next alternative was to leave the frame in place and swap the slab
out. This would require drilling the door to fit MY frame (so, I
don't save much on labor -- except I no longer have to remove the frame!)

But, the 35.5" confounds on that score -- unless I start inspecting
individual prehung offerings hoping to find a 35.5" door that I can
REMOVE from its frame and coerce into *my* frame! Then, I've got a
35.5" door drilled for *it's* prehung frame that I have to HOPE I can
fit to my EXISTING frame.

(too many things have to fall into place for this to be a joyous outcome)

Ah, we're finally getting down to cases...have you actually determined
the RO dimensions and if so, what are they?

--

Now you've done it! You've asked for pertinent information when he has
explicitly stated that he does not want to answer any questions not
directly related to nominal vs. actual width of door slabs.

Are you trying to start a fight or something? ;-)

Another complication: we lived in Europe for a while courtesy of (er, at the order of) my employer at the time.

Those German doors did not just swing into the jamb. They overlapped. Twice. There was a double jog in the jamb and a double overlap on the door.

Wish I could get one like that here.

On Tue, 01 Mar 2016 09:28:46 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 3/1/2016 9:07 AM, dpb wrote:
On 03/01/2016 9:44 AM, Don Y wrote:
....

It doesn't matter whether I'm looking to replace just the slab
(reusing existing frame) *or* replacing the entire frame (with
a prehung unit) -- if the RO is sized too narrow!

The remedy available to me is to replace/revise the buck; or,
fabricate a thinner jamb (assuming that to be a cheaper solution
than a custom 35.5" metal door).

I'm not keen on letting this turn into another long-winded
back-and-forth where we play 20 questions and roam around
visiting all sorts of different issues that MAY or MAY NOT
be pertinent.

"A stock 36 inches door is 36 inches -- whether a slab or
(effectively) when prepackaged in a prehung jamb"

That's all I need to know to sort out what I have to do...

Excepting it already has in large part owing to your reluctance to outline the
actual objective and specifics of the condition.

We've already established that nominal 36" doors aren't necessarily either 36"
_or_ 35.5" and that you can undoubtedly find either. That still leaves open
all the other dimensions and details that are just as important as far as what
would have to be done to make a swap.

I'd think the likelihood the RO is too narrow pretty low but it is possible,
yes. Have you done enough exploratory work to know what the RO dimensions
actually are? You may be making mountains from molehills and the simplest
solution is to simply rip out the old and put in a new prehung stock unit.

I can trace the grout lines to know how large the opening in the
*masonry* is. I can see where the door "begins". I can do simple math
to determine how wide the buck+frame are.

I can then examine the "assembled dimensions" of prehung doors to see
how they would fit.

Ripping out the old leaves me with a large, person sized hole in
the house that needs to be filled before the next nightfall. I'm
sure as hell not keen on doing that just to "gather data".

I'm an engineer; I can look at numbers on a piece of paper and
sort out how things will (or won't!) work without having to
"try it and see!"

The easiest way to determine a masonry R/O is to drill a small hole in
the jamb near the stop and probe with a wire. You can easily fill that
hole and make it disappear if you decide not to replace the jambs.
You might find there is quite a bit of bucking in that opening.

On 03/01/2016 10:50 AM, wrote:
....

I'm an engineer; I can look at numbers on a piece of paper and
sort out how things will (or won't!) work without having to
"try it and see!"

The easiest way to determine a masonry R/O is to drill a small hole in
the jamb near the stop and probe with a wire. You can easily fill that
hole and make it disappear if you decide not to replace the jambs.
You might find there is quite a bit of bucking in that opening.

+42

Nobody said rip the whole thing out; it's unlikely to the max the RO
wasn't plenty for a "standard" door and guessing from the exterior fill
isn't much for uncovering what is actually there.

Sometimes even we engineers need to do lab work, not count of design
drawings...

--

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 3:43:37 PM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 03/01/2016 10:50 AM, wrote:
...

I'm an engineer; I can look at numbers on a piece of paper and
sort out how things will (or won't!) work without having to
"try it and see!"

The easiest way to determine a masonry R/O is to drill a small hole in
the jamb near the stop and probe with a wire. You can easily fill that
hole and make it disappear if you decide not to replace the jambs.
You might find there is quite a bit of bucking in that opening.

+42

Nobody said rip the whole thing out; it's unlikely to the max the RO
wasn't plenty for a "standard" door and guessing from the exterior fill
isn't much for uncovering what is actually there.

Sometimes even we engineers need to do lab work, not count of design
drawings...

--

I'd just pull the trim molding off to see the RO. Assuming he's replacing
the door, it has to come off anyhow. But then again, the scope of the
actual project hasn't been stated. It's almost certainly a RO where you
can find a replacement door to fit, there are probably a lot of choices.

On Monday, February 29, 2016 at 12:18:33 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, February 29, 2016 at 11:36:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 08:49:36 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 2/29/2016 8:42 AM, wrote:
why not trim the door down by 1/4 inch on each side

You haven't mentioned the height of the doors, either.

Hard to trim METAL!

You will find they are all going to be a half inch smaller than the
nominal size

I tend to think that Don is either asking the wrong question or hasn't
provided enough information.

If he plans to replace just the door itself, then maybe his question is
OK. If he is planning on replacing the door and the jamb, then I
think that he should determine the RO measurements and then shop for
a pre-hung door armed with that information.


+1

Found it.

http://www.houzz.com/ideabooks/61399...ean-edge-doors

On 03/01/2016 2:51 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 3:43:37 PM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 03/01/2016 10:50 AM, wrote:
...

I'm an engineer; I can look at numbers on a piece of paper and
sort out how things will (or won't!) work without having to
"try it and see!"

The easiest way to determine a masonry R/O is to drill a small hole in
the jamb near the stop and probe with a wire. You can easily fill that
hole and make it disappear if you decide not to replace the jambs.
You might find there is quite a bit of bucking in that opening.

+42

Nobody said rip the whole thing out; it's unlikely to the max the RO
wasn't plenty for a "standard" door and guessing from the exterior fill
isn't much for uncovering what is actually there.

Sometimes even we engineers need to do lab work, not count of design
drawings...

--

I'd just pull the trim molding off to see the RO. Assuming he's replacing
the door, it has to come off anyhow. But then again, the scope of the
actual project hasn't been stated. It's almost certainly a RO where you
can find a replacement door to fit, there are probably a lot of choices.

Yeah, me too. The hole thru the jamb isn't all that reliable in that
you'll hit whatever blocking is there and not know for certain whether
it's fill or actual framing...I was simply pointing out to OP that the
best answer isn't necessarily the answer to the question asked and
likely isn't going to come from analysis/documentation but
experiment/observation instead.

Of course, if he were to simply take existing slab measurements
including those of other specifics outlined and went with those to the
local purveyor of goods...

--

replying to Don Y, Jessica Hefford wrote:
The opening (without door box) is 35.5". What size door/door box should be
installed?


--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...es-875360-.htm

On 1/9/2018 12:44 PM, Jessica Hefford wrote:
replying to Don Y, Jessica Hefford wrote:
The opening (without door box) is 35.5". What size door/door box should be
installed?


If you didn't bother to read through almost two years of discussion, try
this: "Typically the rough opening required when installing a prehung
door should be sized 2 inches wider and 2 inches higher than the prehung
door itself. For example a two-foot, eight inch (32€�) by six feet, eight
inch high (80€�) prehung door, would require a rough opening width of 34
inches and a height of 82 inches."

Your opening is too big for a 32" and too small for a 36". If it's
plumb, you can most likely slip in a 34" prehung door even though the RO
is a shade skimpy.

replying to Don Y, William Walsh wrote:
option 2--house is 100 years old


--
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