My 1950s era house had a 100amp panel, with a grounding wire that ran to my well and was clamped to the well casing. I hired a licensed electrician to upgrade to 200amp panel. He also installed 2-3 ground rods outside the house and connected from the new panel to them, AS WELL AS running from the panel via a heavy wire (looks like #6 aluminum strand) clamped to the copper water pipe downstream of my pressure tank. Notice... he didn't connect to the well casing, but to the piping on the "house" side of the pressure tank, and the pressure tank is separated from the well casing by my pump and black rubber hose (i.e. no electrical continuity). And he left the original ground wire as-is on the well casing.

Never noticed all this until recently.
Is this correct?
Shouldn't there be a jumper cable to connect across the black rubber hose (from the copper pipes to the well casing?)

Just curious
Experienced advice appreciated.
Thanks
Theodore.

On Tue, 8 Dec 2015 21:34:32 -0800 (PST), wrote:

My 1950s era house had a 100amp panel, with a grounding wire that ran to my well and was clamped to the well casing. I hired a licensed electrician to upgrade to 200amp panel. He also installed 2-3 ground rods outside the house and connected from the new panel to them, AS WELL AS running from the panel via a heavy wire (looks like #6 aluminum strand) clamped to the copper water pipe downstream of my pressure tank. Notice... he didn't connect to the well casing, but to the piping on the "house" side of the pressure tank, and the pressure tank is separated from the well casing by my pump and black rubber hose (i.e. no electrical continuity). And he left the original ground wire as-is on the well casing.

Never noticed all this until recently.
Is this correct?
Shouldn't there be a jumper cable to connect across the black rubber hose (from the copper pipes to the well casing?)

Just curious
Experienced advice appreciated.

Would you settle for inexperienced advice? He thought 2-3 (which is
it) ground rods were more than enough, and he only connected the wire
because he thought you'd want it (Had you said anything about it?) and
he didn't pay attention to where he put it, or he didn't care,
because he thought the ground rods were enough. Are they?

Thanks
Theodore.

On 12/8/2015 10:34 PM, wrote:
My 1950s era house had a 100amp panel, with a grounding wire that ran to my
well and was clamped to the well casing. I hired a licensed electrician to
upgrade to 200amp panel. He also installed 2-3 ground rods outside the
house and connected from the new panel to them, AS WELL AS running from the
panel via a heavy wire (looks like #6 aluminum strand) clamped to the copper
water pipe downstream of my pressure tank. Notice... he didn't connect to
the well casing, but to the piping on the "house" side of the pressure tank,
and the pressure tank is separated from the well casing by my pump and black
rubber hose (i.e. no electrical continuity). And he left the original
ground wire as-is on the well casing.

Never noticed all this until recently. Is this correct? Shouldn't there be a
jumper cable to connect across the black rubber hose (from the copper pipes
to the well casing?)

The electrician is ensuring your house's *plumbing* is grounded.

Ages ago, houses picked up their "local earth" *through* the
water main. But, there are problems with that approach:
- the water meter can be removed which "opens" the connection to earth
(so, run a jumper across the meter's location to ensure galvanic
continuity even in its absence)
- whole house filters and softeners pose similar problems
- the water main may not be metallic (or for only part of the way)
- the interior plumbing may contain sections that are non metalic
- water pipes corrode (and, can do so at any place, not just one
that might be convenient electrically!)

The grounding rods ensure a reliable connection to earth regardless
of the state of the plumbing, water main, etc.

The electrician has no way of knowing if someone expected the
plumbing to have been this source of earth, previously. So, he
intentionally connects the plumbing to this "reliable earth"
that he has created to ensure any connections to those pipes
will make it to earth.

For similar reasons, a metal frame building would *also* find
an explicit connection of the building frame to that earth.

[Ductwork is required to be grounded in some commercial
settings to control the build-up of static charge]

On Wed, 09 Dec 2015 00:43:36 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Never noticed all this until recently. Is this correct? Shouldn't there be a
jumper cable to connect across the black rubber hose (from the copper pipes
to the well casing?)

The electrician is ensuring your house's *plumbing* is grounded.

Ages ago, houses picked up their "local earth" *through* the
water main. But, there are problems with that approach:
- the water meter can be removed which "opens" the connection to earth
(so, run a jumper across the meter's location to ensure galvanic
continuity even in its absence)
- whole house filters and softeners pose similar problems
- the water main may not be metallic (or for only part of the way)
- the interior plumbing may contain sections that are non metalic
- water pipes corrode (and, can do so at any place, not just one
that might be convenient electrically!)

I agree the ground rods are plenty. The pipes are grounded so they do
not somehow become electrically live. The ground wire is usually 6
gauge copper. If you jumper across that hose, are the pipes going to the
well metal? Usually they are plastic these days. If they are metal, it
wont hurt to add a jumper. But if the pipes to the well are plastic, you
wont gain anything.

Just curious. How did they have a wire connected to the well casing?
That's usually a 4 to 6" pipe. That would need one hell of a clamp.
You could also connect that wire from the casing to the grounding system
too. It cant hurt anything, but is not necessary.

On Tue, 08 Dec 2015 23:34:32 -0600, wrote:

My 1950s era house had a 100amp panel, with a grounding wire that ran to
my well and was clamped to the well casing. I hired a licensed
electrician to upgrade to 200amp panel. He also installed 2-3 ground
rods outside the house and connected from the new panel to them, AS WELL
AS running from the panel via a heavy wire (looks like #6 aluminum
strand) clamped to the copper water pipe downstream of my pressure
tank. Notice... he didn't connect to the well casing, but to the piping
on the "house" side of the pressure tank, and the pressure tank is
separated from the well casing by my pump and black rubber hose (i.e. no
electrical continuity). And he left the original ground wire as-is on
the well casing.

What did he doe with the opposite end of the original wire attached
to the well casing?

Never noticed all this until recently.
Is this correct?
Shouldn't there be a jumper cable to connect across the black rubber
hose (from the copper pipes to the well casing?)

Just curious
Experienced advice appreciated.
Thanks
Theodore.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

All,
Many thanks for all these excellent responses.
I checked this morning, it's 3 grounding rods outside.

The older, existing, grounding wire to the well casing is definitely less than #6. It's armored cable, and WITH the armor it looks like it's as thick as a #6 conductor (without sheathing). Perhaps that's just the type of wire used to ground stuff in the 1950s? Anyhow, it's connected to the well casing with what looks like a bolt clamped onto the casing's top flange. As far as I can tell, the other end of this original grounding wire is still connected to the panel.

The underlying reason I ask all this is because I'm about to install a water softener that would electrically insulate the section of copper pipe where this grounding wire is connected to, making it irrelevant. Perhaps I should move this grounding wire downstream of the water softener? Or again, jump across it, AND across the pump to the well casing, such that all of my plumbing is grounded. Thoughts? More importantly, any reason why I shouldn't?

Hill,

Install the ground downstream from the softener.

Dave M.

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 2:00:04 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 2015 21:34:32 -0800 (PST), wrote:

My 1950s era house had a 100amp panel, with a grounding wire that ran to my well and was clamped to the well casing. I hired a licensed electrician to upgrade to 200amp panel. He also installed 2-3 ground rods outside the house and connected from the new panel to them, AS WELL AS running from the panel via a heavy wire (looks like #6 aluminum strand) clamped to the copper water pipe downstream of my pressure tank. Notice... he didn't connect to the well casing, but to the piping on the "house" side of the pressure tank, and the pressure tank is separated from the well casing by my pump and black rubber hose (i.e. no electrical continuity). And he left the original ground wire as-is on the well casing.

Never noticed all this until recently.
Is this correct?
Shouldn't there be a jumper cable to connect across the black rubber hose (from the copper pipes to the well casing?)

Just curious
Experienced advice appreciated.

Would you settle for inexperienced advice? He thought 2-3 (which is
it) ground rods were more than enough, and he only connected the wire
because he thought you'd want it.

It's a code requirement, for obvious reasons, that the house metal
plumbing system be bonded to the grounding system. That bonding wire is
mandatory.

The OP said that the electrician left in place the original ground
wire going to the well pipe. Not clear if he means that he has it
connected to the new panel, but IMO it should be. It was already
there and is an additional grounding electrode.

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 2:24:36 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Dec 2015 00:43:36 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Never noticed all this until recently. Is this correct? Shouldn't there be a
jumper cable to connect across the black rubber hose (from the copper pipes
to the well casing?)

The electrician is ensuring your house's *plumbing* is grounded.

Ages ago, houses picked up their "local earth" *through* the
water main. But, there are problems with that approach:
- the water meter can be removed which "opens" the connection to earth
(so, run a jumper across the meter's location to ensure galvanic
continuity even in its absence)
- whole house filters and softeners pose similar problems
- the water main may not be metallic (or for only part of the way)
- the interior plumbing may contain sections that are non metalic
- water pipes corrode (and, can do so at any place, not just one
that might be convenient electrically!)

I agree the ground rods are plenty. The pipes are grounded so they do
not somehow become electrically live. The ground wire is usually 6
gauge copper. If you jumper across that hose, are the pipes going to the
well metal? Usually they are plastic these days. If they are metal, it
wont hurt to add a jumper. But if the pipes to the well are plastic, you
wont gain anything.

Just curious. How did they have a wire connected to the well casing?
That's usually a 4 to 6" pipe. That would need one hell of a clamp.
You could also connect that wire from the casing to the grounding system
too. It cant hurt anything, but is not necessary.

For any service entrance (meter box) I ever installed, I used #4 bare copper wire to ground the meter box to the ground rod which was driven into the earth right below the meter. If our pal from Florida reads this, he can verify the code requirements. (€¢€¿€¢)

[8~{} Uncle Earth Monster

wrote in message
...
My 1950s era house had a 100amp panel, with a grounding wire that ran to my
well and was clamped to the well casing. I hired a licensed electrician to
upgrade to 200amp panel. He also installed 2-3 ground rods outside the
house and connected from the new panel to them, AS WELL AS running from the
panel via a heavy wire (looks like #6 aluminum strand) clamped to the copper
water pipe downstream of my pressure tank. Notice... he didn't connect to
the well casing, but to the piping on the "house" side of the pressure tank,
and the pressure tank is separated from the well casing by my pump and black
rubber hose (i.e. no electrical continuity). And he left the original
ground wire as-is on the well casing.

Never noticed all this until recently.
Is this correct?
Shouldn't there be a jumper cable to connect across the black rubber hose
(from the copper pipes to the well casing?)

Just curious
Experienced advice appreciated.
Thanks
Theodore.

I would not ground to the well casing to avoid possible electrolysis damage.

On Tue, 8 Dec 2015 21:34:32 -0800 (PST), wrote:

My 1950s era house had a 100amp panel, with a grounding wire that ran to my well and was clamped to the well casing. I hired a licensed electrician to upgrade to 200amp panel. He also installed 2-3 ground rods outside the house and connected from the new panel to them, AS WELL AS running from the panel via a heavy wire (looks like #6 aluminum strand) clamped to the copper water pipe downstream of my pressure tank. Notice... he didn't connect to the well casing, but to the piping on the "house" side of the pressure tank, and the pressure tank is separated from the well casing by my pump and black rubber hose (i.e. no electrical continuity). And he left the original ground wire as-is on the well casing.

Never noticed all this until recently.
Is this correct?
Shouldn't there be a jumper cable to connect across the black rubber hose (from the copper pipes to the well casing?)

Just curious
Experienced advice appreciated.
Thanks
Theodore.

The well casing is an available electrode and it most be used. The
Grounding Electrode Conductor to water pipes is sized by 250.66 and
should be #4 for your typical 200a service. Since made electrodes like
ground rods are not really that effective, you only need #6, no matter
what the service is. The wire to the isolated interior water pipe is
only bonding the pipe, you should be bonding to the house side of the
plastic so jumper around the water softener.

The well casing is an available electrode and it most be used. The
Grounding Electrode Conductor to water pipes is sized by 250.66 and
should be #4 for your typical 200a service. Since made electrodes like
ground rods are not really that effective, you only need #6, no matter
what the service is. The wire to the isolated interior water pipe is
only bonding the pipe, you should be bonding to the house side of the
plastic so jumper around the water softener.

Thought so. Will do. Thanks!

On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 04:44:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:

All,
Many thanks for all these excellent responses.
I checked this morning, it's 3 grounding rods outside.

The older, existing, grounding wire to the well casing is definitely less than #6. It's armored cable, and WITH the armor it looks like it's as thick as a #6 conductor (without sheathing). Perhaps that's just the type of wire used to ground stuff in the 1950s? Anyhow, it's connected to the well casing with what looks like a bolt clamped onto the casing's top flange. As far as I can tell, the other end of this original grounding wire is still connected to the panel.

The underlying reason I ask all this is because I'm about to install a water softener that would electrically insulate the section of copper pipe where this grounding wire is connected to, making it irrelevant. Perhaps I should move this grounding wire downstream of the water softener? Or again, jump across it, AND across the pump to the well casing, such that all of my plumbing is grounded. Thoughts? More importantly, any reason why I shouldn't?


Best practice is a single ground poit - with everything grounded to it
That ground needs to be a "contiguous" ground - no breaks. This means
you jumper the softener (unless it uses a brass bypass block and is
totally plumbed with soldered copper) and you jumper the pipe flex (to
ground the pump to the system) and you connect the house side of the
softener to the panel ground. You also jumper the gas pipe to ground
making sure the gasline is at ground potential as well - ground to
steel pipe, not soft copper or stainless flex. The phone and TV cable
systems should also be properly grounded.

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 5:42:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 04:44:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:

All,
Many thanks for all these excellent responses.
I checked this morning, it's 3 grounding rods outside.

The older, existing, grounding wire to the well casing is definitely less than #6. It's armored cable, and WITH the armor it looks like it's as thick as a #6 conductor (without sheathing). Perhaps that's just the type of wire used to ground stuff in the 1950s? Anyhow, it's connected to the well casing with what looks like a bolt clamped onto the casing's top flange. As far as I can tell, the other end of this original grounding wire is still connected to the panel.

The underlying reason I ask all this is because I'm about to install a water softener that would electrically insulate the section of copper pipe where this grounding wire is connected to, making it irrelevant. Perhaps I should move this grounding wire downstream of the water softener? Or again, jump across it, AND across the pump to the well casing, such that all of my plumbing is grounded. Thoughts? More importantly, any reason why I shouldn't?


Best practice is a single ground poit - with everything grounded to it

Taken literally, that would imply that the well should not be connected
to the grounding system. And also that only one ground rod should be used.
The question was if the well pipe should also be part of the grounding system
and NEC says "yes".

On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:23:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 5:42:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 04:44:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:

All,
Many thanks for all these excellent responses.
I checked this morning, it's 3 grounding rods outside.

The older, existing, grounding wire to the well casing is definitely less than #6. It's armored cable, and WITH the armor it looks like it's as thick as a #6 conductor (without sheathing). Perhaps that's just the type of wire used to ground stuff in the 1950s? Anyhow, it's connected to the well casing with what looks like a bolt clamped onto the casing's top flange. As far as I can tell, the other end of this original grounding wire is still connected to the panel.

The underlying reason I ask all this is because I'm about to install a water softener that would electrically insulate the section of copper pipe where this grounding wire is connected to, making it irrelevant. Perhaps I should move this grounding wire downstream of the water softener? Or again, jump across it, AND across the pump to the well casing, such that all of my plumbing is grounded. Thoughts? More importantly, any reason why I shouldn't?


Best practice is a single ground poit - with everything grounded to it

Taken literally, that would imply that the well should not be connected
to the grounding system. And also that only one ground rod should be used.
The question was if the well pipe should also be part of the grounding system
and NEC says "yes".

As long as your whole grounding system winds up at the main binding
jumper (the ground bus in the panel for simplicity) you do have a
single point ground and all of your other services should be bonded
there. (that is where the intersystem ground bus lands).
You may be buying some fat copper if the satellite dish is not close
by. The 10ga wire to the 3 foot copper nail the sat company uses is a
joke if you are worried about lightning.

Micky wrote in
:

On Tue, 8 Dec 2015 21:34:32 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

[...]
Experienced advice appreciated.

Would you settle for inexperienced advice?

No. Electricity is a subject on which the inexperienced and ill-informed should not attempt to
offer advice, because taking it can be dangerous.

On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:23:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


Taken literally, that would imply that the well should not be connected
to the grounding system. And also that only one ground rod should be used.
The question was if the well pipe should also be part of the grounding system
and NEC says "yes".

I have not read the NEC code in years and dont have a current book, but
even in the 90's they required at least 2 ground rods. Some areas are
different, this depends on soil conditions, and local codes too. So
requiring 3 or more rods is possible.

More ground rods, or a well casing, or any other metal contacting the
soil just adds to the "system". When it comes to grounding, MORE IS
BETTER. Just as long as they all go to the ground buss (bar) inside the
main breaker panel.

Like someone else said, yes, gas pipes, phone system, cable tv lines,
and so on, all should be grounded too. Even metal siding should be.

I have worked on a trailer house (mobile home), and that came equipped
with #6 copper wire from the main breaker box, which was clamped to the
steel beam frame under the trailer. The siding was also connected to
that steel frame, as well as the phone connection box, and gas pipes,
furnace ducts, and so on. Under the trailer there were a lot of ground
wires and all of them went to that steel frame. All of this was
original, and part of the trailer when it was built in the factory
(except for the phone line ground, which was probably added by the phone
company) (this was a USED trailer). When I got the trailer, intended to
be a guest house, I ran power to it, and put in 2 ground rods, then ran
#6 copper from those rods directly to the breaker box. There was already
the wire that went to the steel frame, from the box, but rather than
clamp these wires together, I had plenty of wire to just go direct to
the box. Trailer houses are not always built as well as regular houses,
but they surely did a good job of grounding this one. (Probably required
by code when they built it).

To the OP, your electrician should have put a jumper across that hose.
You could call him back, but for the cost of 2 clamps and a foot of
wire, why bother. If you add a softener, be sure to put a jumper wire
there too. (if there are non-metal pieces that would break the
continuous ground).

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 10:20:34 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 2015 21:34:32 -0800 (PST), wrote:

My 1950s era house had a 100amp panel, with a grounding wire that ran to my well and was clamped to the well casing. I hired a licensed electrician to upgrade to 200amp panel. He also installed 2-3 ground rods outside the house and connected from the new panel to them, AS WELL AS running from the panel via a heavy wire (looks like #6 aluminum strand) clamped to the copper water pipe downstream of my pressure tank. Notice... he didn't connect to the well casing, but to the piping on the "house" side of the pressure tank, and the pressure tank is separated from the well casing by my pump and black rubber hose (i.e. no electrical continuity). And he left the original ground wire as-is on the well casing.

Never noticed all this until recently.
Is this correct?
Shouldn't there be a jumper cable to connect across the black rubber hose (from the copper pipes to the well casing?)

Just curious
Experienced advice appreciated.
Thanks
Theodore.

The well casing is an available electrode and it most be used. The
Grounding Electrode Conductor to water pipes is sized by 250.66 and
should be #4 for your typical 200a service. Since made electrodes like
ground rods are not really that effective, you only need #6, no matter
what the service is. The wire to the isolated interior water pipe is
only bonding the pipe, you should be bonding to the house side of the
plastic so jumper around the water softener.

I'm surprised at the #6 to a ground rod since the inspectors around here always insisted on a #4 to ground rod and water line for any residential service. On the last service entrance I put in a business, the inspector also required grounding bushings on the conduit nipple between the meter box and main breaker enclosure. The city engineering department often requires things that are stricter or over and above that which is in the NEC. I have installed dielectric unions when joining galvanized to copper water pipe then ground clamps on the pipes with a #4 jumper around the dielectric union. The electrical inspection department here is fond of #4 grounding conductors on everything related to power for residential and light commercial. For telecom and cable systems #14 to #10 in homes but usually #6 to the telecom system backboard ground bars in business and industrial locations. From what I remember for backboard ground bars a #6 grounding conductor to the nearest power system ground using a separate ground clamp without any coiling of the wire and as straight as the wire can be run. I recall the wire size and direct route has to do with keeping the impedance and resistance of the grounding conductor as low as possible. It's been a while since I've installed a service entrance so I'm not up to speed on any changes the city electrical inspectors want to see but I always had to satisfy them since they had the final say.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[8~{} Uncle Power Monster

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 5:49:25 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:23:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 5:42:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 04:44:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:

All,
Many thanks for all these excellent responses.
I checked this morning, it's 3 grounding rods outside.

The older, existing, grounding wire to the well casing is definitely less than #6. It's armored cable, and WITH the armor it looks like it's as thick as a #6 conductor (without sheathing). Perhaps that's just the type of wire used to ground stuff in the 1950s? Anyhow, it's connected to the well casing with what looks like a bolt clamped onto the casing's top flange. As far as I can tell, the other end of this original grounding wire is still connected to the panel.

The underlying reason I ask all this is because I'm about to install a water softener that would electrically insulate the section of copper pipe where this grounding wire is connected to, making it irrelevant. Perhaps I should move this grounding wire downstream of the water softener? Or again, jump across it, AND across the pump to the well casing, such that all of my plumbing is grounded. Thoughts? More importantly, any reason why I shouldn't?


Best practice is a single ground poit - with everything grounded to it

Taken literally, that would imply that the well should not be connected
to the grounding system. And also that only one ground rod should be used.
The question was if the well pipe should also be part of the grounding system
and NEC says "yes".

As long as your whole grounding system winds up at the main binding
jumper (the ground bus in the panel for simplicity) you do have a
single point ground and all of your other services should be bonded
there. (that is where the intersystem ground bus lands).
You may be buying some fat copper if the satellite dish is not close
by. The 10ga wire to the 3 foot copper nail the sat company uses is a
joke if you are worried about lightning.

As I recall, you live in Florida, the lightning capital of the country. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Zap Monster

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 00:21:14 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 10:20:34 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 2015 21:34:32 -0800 (PST), wrote:

My 1950s era house had a 100amp panel, with a grounding wire that ran to my well and was clamped to the well casing. I hired a licensed electrician to upgrade to 200amp panel. He also installed 2-3 ground rods outside the house and connected from the new panel to them, AS WELL AS running from the panel via a heavy wire (looks
like #6 aluminum strand) clamped to the copper water pipe downstream of my pressure tank. Notice... he didn't connect to the well casing, but to the piping on the "house" side of the pressure tank, and the pressure tank is separated from the well casing by my pump and black rubber hose (i.e. no electrical continuity). And he left
the original ground wire as-is on the well casing.

Never noticed all this until recently.
Is this correct?
Shouldn't there be a jumper cable to connect across the black rubber hose (from the copper pipes to the well casing?)

Just curious
Experienced advice appreciated.
Thanks
Theodore.

The well casing is an available electrode and it most be used. The
Grounding Electrode Conductor to water pipes is sized by 250.66 and
should be #4 for your typical 200a service. Since made electrodes like
ground rods are not really that effective, you only need #6, no matter
what the service is. The wire to the isolated interior water pipe is
only bonding the pipe, you should be bonding to the house side of the
plastic so jumper around the water softener.

I'm surprised at the #6 to a ground rod since the inspectors around here always insisted on a #4 to ground rod and water line for any residential service. On the last service entrance I put in a business, the inspector also required grounding bushings on the conduit nipple between the meter box and main breaker enclosure. The city
engineering department often requires things that are stricter or over and above that which is in the NEC. I have installed dielectric unions when joining galvanized to copper water pipe then ground clamps on the pipes with a #4 jumper around the dielectric union. The electrical inspection department here is fond of #4 grounding
conductors on everything related to power for residential and light commercial. For telecom and cable systems #14 to #10 in homes but usually #6 to the telecom system backboard ground bars in business and industrial locations. From what I remember for backboard ground bars a #6 grounding conductor to the nearest power system ground
using a separate ground clamp without any coiling of the wire and as straight as the wire can be run. I recall the wire size and direct route has to do with keeping the impedance and resistance of the grounding conductor as low as possible. It's been a while since I've installed a service entrance so I'm not up to speed on any
changes the city electrical inspectors want to see but I always had to satisfy them since they had the final say.¯\_(?)_/¯

[8~{} Uncle Power Monster

You size Grounding Electrode Conductors with 250.66 based on the
service conductor size but for the typical 200a service (2/0 copper or
4/0 aluminum conductors) the GEC is #4.
examples with copper
#2 (100a) = #8
#1 or 1/0 (150a) = #6
2/0-3/0 (200a) = #4
Up to 350 kcmil (400a) = #2
etc
Later they refine that by electrode size and when it is a made
electrode you get here
**************
250,66(A) Connections to Rod, Pipe, or Plate Electrodes. Where the
grounding electrode conductor is connected to rod, pipe, or plate
electrodes as permitted in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(7), that portion of the
conductor that is the sole connection to the grounding electrode shall
not be required to be larger than 6 AWG copper wire or 4 AWG aluminum
wire
**************.

note that you can't use aluminum wire within 18" of the dirt so this
really means #6 copper


**************
250.64 (A) Aluminum or Copper-Clad Aluminum Conductors. Bare aluminum
or copper-clad aluminum grounding conductors shall not be used where
in direct contact with masonry or the earth or where subject to
corrosive conditions. Where used outside, aluminum or copper-clad
aluminum grounding conductors shall not be terminated within 450 mm
(18 in.) of the earth.
**************

The largest size required for a Ufer is #4 per 250.66(B) and 250(C)
says a conductor to a ground ring need not be larger than the
conductor in the ring but that is a minimum #2.


It gets even more confusing when you are connecting to interior
piping.
If you are talking about water pipe being used as an electrode you
size by 250.66 but if you are just bonding the pipe you use 250.104
that says you size the wire based on the circuit likely to energize
the wire based on 250.122 (the same size as you would use for the
equipment grounding conductor) That could be as small as #14 cu if the
only circuit that gets near it is 15a

Some still read it to say all water pipe bonding shall be sized to
250.66 but if this is not part of the GES, I am not sure how you can
justify that.
As usual the AHJ generally has the last word so you need to ask your
local guy. Fighting city shall is seldom worth the hassle.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 00:25:32 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

As I recall, you live in Florida, the lightning capital of the country. ^_^

Yup, we take surge protection seriously here.
In my previous life as a Physical Planning Rep at IBM, we did not have
the luxury of telling our customers to unplug everything every time
there was a thunderstorm (pretty much every day in the summer) so we
needed to design systems that mitigated the damage. We got pretty good
at it. It can be summed up by saying you trap the surge and shunt it
into the ground. You use MOVs and chokes along with a lot of copper.

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 6:49:25 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:23:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 5:42:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 04:44:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:

All,
Many thanks for all these excellent responses.
I checked this morning, it's 3 grounding rods outside.

The older, existing, grounding wire to the well casing is definitely less than #6. It's armored cable, and WITH the armor it looks like it's as thick as a #6 conductor (without sheathing). Perhaps that's just the type of wire used to ground stuff in the 1950s? Anyhow, it's connected to the well casing with what looks like a bolt clamped onto the casing's top flange. As far as I can tell, the other end of this original grounding wire is still connected to the panel.

The underlying reason I ask all this is because I'm about to install a water softener that would electrically insulate the section of copper pipe where this grounding wire is connected to, making it irrelevant. Perhaps I should move this grounding wire downstream of the water softener? Or again, jump across it, AND across the pump to the well casing, such that all of my plumbing is grounded. Thoughts? More importantly, any reason why I shouldn't?


Best practice is a single ground poit - with everything grounded to it

Taken literally, that would imply that the well should not be connected
to the grounding system. And also that only one ground rod should be used.
The question was if the well pipe should also be part of the grounding system
and NEC says "yes".

As long as your whole grounding system winds up at the main binding
jumper (the ground bus in the panel for simplicity) you do have a
single point ground and all of your other services should be bonded
there. (that is where the intersystem ground bus lands).
You may be buying some fat copper if the satellite dish is not close
by. The 10ga wire to the 3 foot copper nail the sat company uses is a
joke if you are worried about lightning.

From the perspective of it being at one end of the house tied to the
panel it's single point. It's single point from the perspective of not
having another ground rod on the other side of the house, not directly
connected to the one at the panel. But if you have a couple of ground
rods and and a water pipe going to a well connected together, I'd say each
of those is in fact a ground point that forms a single ground *system*.
If there is current in the ground system, some will flow at each of
those separate ground points. And the
way it was brought up here, kind of implied that connecting the well
pipe would be a violation. But CL never addressed that, which was the
actual question.

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 8:25:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:23:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


Taken literally, that would imply that the well should not be connected
to the grounding system. And also that only one ground rod should be used.
The question was if the well pipe should also be part of the grounding system
and NEC says "yes".

I have not read the NEC code in years and dont have a current book, but
even in the 90's they required at least 2 ground rods. Some areas are
different, this depends on soil conditions, and local codes too. So
requiring 3 or more rods is possible.

More ground rods, or a well casing, or any other metal contacting the
soil just adds to the "system". When it comes to grounding, MORE IS
BETTER. Just as long as they all go to the ground buss (bar) inside the
main breaker panel.

Like someone else said, yes, gas pipes, phone system, cable tv lines,
and so on, all should be grounded too. Even metal siding should be.

I have worked on a trailer house (mobile home), and that came equipped
with #6 copper wire from the main breaker box, which was clamped to the
steel beam frame under the trailer. The siding was also connected to
that steel frame, as well as the phone connection box, and gas pipes,
furnace ducts, and so on. Under the trailer there were a lot of ground
wires and all of them went to that steel frame. All of this was
original, and part of the trailer when it was built in the factory
(except for the phone line ground, which was probably added by the phone
company) (this was a USED trailer). When I got the trailer, intended to
be a guest house, I ran power to it, and put in 2 ground rods, then ran
#6 copper from those rods directly to the breaker box. There was already
the wire that went to the steel frame, from the box, but rather than
clamp these wires together, I had plenty of wire to just go direct to
the box. Trailer houses are not always built as well as regular houses,
but they surely did a good job of grounding this one. (Probably required
by code when they built it).

To the OP, your electrician should have put a jumper across that hose.
You could call him back, but for the cost of 2 clamps and a foot of
wire, why bother. If you add a softener, be sure to put a jumper wire
there too. (if there are non-metal pieces that would break the
continuous ground).

I think to meet code what actually needs to happen is he needs an
uninterrupted wire from the grounding system he already has to the
pipe going to the well. As it exists now, he has a ground system
of 2 or 3 rods and that is bonded to the house water system on the
house side of a plastic pipe that separates it from the well. If
he just jumpers across that, then he doesn't have a continuous wire
to the well pipe, it's in two segements, which I don't believe is
allowed. Gfre?

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 5:46:04 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 00:25:32 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

As I recall, you live in Florida, the lightning capital of the country. ^_^

Yup, we take surge protection seriously here.
In my previous life as a Physical Planning Rep at IBM, we did not have
the luxury of telling our customers to unplug everything every time
there was a thunderstorm (pretty much every day in the summer) so we
needed to design systems that mitigated the damage. We got pretty good
at it. It can be summed up by saying you trap the surge and shunt it
into the ground. You use MOVs and chokes along with a lot of copper.

I recall reading about DOD studies concerning the protection of a building's electrical system and equipment from an electromagnetic pulse attack. What they figured out was to cascade the protection and put surge arresters everywhere. I don't remember exactly the different types but there may have been spark gaps, gas tube and MOV surge arresters along with zener diode voltage clamping circuitry. I've installed some solid state surge arresters on phone lines that were solid state but not MOV. I'd have to look it up but I seem to recall PPTC in the description. Crap, I'll have to look it up. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Surge Monster

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 04:37:17 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 8:25:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:23:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


Taken literally, that would imply that the well should not be connected
to the grounding system. And also that only one ground rod should be used.
The question was if the well pipe should also be part of the grounding system
and NEC says "yes".

I have not read the NEC code in years and dont have a current book, but
even in the 90's they required at least 2 ground rods. Some areas are
different, this depends on soil conditions, and local codes too. So
requiring 3 or more rods is possible.

More ground rods, or a well casing, or any other metal contacting the
soil just adds to the "system". When it comes to grounding, MORE IS
BETTER. Just as long as they all go to the ground buss (bar) inside the
main breaker panel.

Like someone else said, yes, gas pipes, phone system, cable tv lines,
and so on, all should be grounded too. Even metal siding should be.

I have worked on a trailer house (mobile home), and that came equipped
with #6 copper wire from the main breaker box, which was clamped to the
steel beam frame under the trailer. The siding was also connected to
that steel frame, as well as the phone connection box, and gas pipes,
furnace ducts, and so on. Under the trailer there were a lot of ground
wires and all of them went to that steel frame. All of this was
original, and part of the trailer when it was built in the factory
(except for the phone line ground, which was probably added by the phone
company) (this was a USED trailer). When I got the trailer, intended to
be a guest house, I ran power to it, and put in 2 ground rods, then ran
#6 copper from those rods directly to the breaker box. There was already
the wire that went to the steel frame, from the box, but rather than
clamp these wires together, I had plenty of wire to just go direct to
the box. Trailer houses are not always built as well as regular houses,
but they surely did a good job of grounding this one. (Probably required
by code when they built it).

To the OP, your electrician should have put a jumper across that hose.
You could call him back, but for the cost of 2 clamps and a foot of
wire, why bother. If you add a softener, be sure to put a jumper wire
there too. (if there are non-metal pieces that would break the
continuous ground).

I think to meet code what actually needs to happen is he needs an
uninterrupted wire from the grounding system he already has to the
pipe going to the well. As it exists now, he has a ground system
of 2 or 3 rods and that is bonded to the house water system on the
house side of a plastic pipe that separates it from the well. If
he just jumpers across that, then he doesn't have a continuous wire
to the well pipe, it's in two segements, which I don't believe is
allowed. Gfre?

You only need a continuous conductor to the primary grounding
electrode. You can connect "bonding jumpers" with any listed method as
long as each path is using the required size wire.

This is from the NEC handbook

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/250%20exibit%2031.jpg

(extra credit if you catch the absurd thing in the code) ;-)

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:05:51 -0500, wrote:

You only need a continuous conductor to the primary grounding
electrode. You can connect "bonding jumpers" with any listed method as
long as each path is using the required size wire.

This is from the NEC handbook

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/250%20exibit%2031.jpg

(extra credit if you catch the absurd thing in the code) ;-)

ummm, the pic shows an Ufer ground in addition to ground rods?

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 04:32:24 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

From the perspective of it being at one end of the house tied to the
panel it's single point. It's single point from the perspective of not
having another ground rod on the other side of the house, not directly
connected to the one at the panel. But if you have a couple of ground
rods and and a water pipe going to a well connected together, I'd say each
of those is in fact a ground point that forms a single ground *system*.
If there is current in the ground system, some will flow at each of
those separate ground points. And the
way it was brought up here, kind of implied that connecting the well
pipe would be a violation. But CL never addressed that, which was the
actual question.

I dont think I have ever seen a well casing used as a ground, but it's
probably one of the best grounds someone could have. But it needs some
sort of attachment welded to the pipe to connect the wire, since most
casings are just plain pipe.

My well is a steel casing, but its not used as a ground. It's about 200
feet from my house, but near my garage, but the garage has no water
pipes. But all my pipes are underground poly-plastic, right up to the
house. Inside the house, the original pipes were copper and they were
grounded, but they are no longer used since I've changed to CPVC pipes.
And the drain pipes were always PVC. The remaining copper pipes which
froze one too many times before I lived here, still exist underneath the
house, so they are still grounded.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:54:08 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:05:51 -0500, wrote:

You only need a continuous conductor to the primary grounding
electrode. You can connect "bonding jumpers" with any listed method as
long as each path is using the required size wire.

This is from the NEC handbook

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/250%20exibit%2031.jpg

(extra credit if you catch the absurd thing in the code) ;-)

ummm, the pic shows an Ufer ground in addition to ground rods?

You can have all the electrodes you want

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:18:12 -0600, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 04:32:24 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

From the perspective of it being at one end of the house tied to the
panel it's single point. It's single point from the perspective of not
having another ground rod on the other side of the house, not directly
connected to the one at the panel. But if you have a couple of ground
rods and and a water pipe going to a well connected together, I'd say each
of those is in fact a ground point that forms a single ground *system*.
If there is current in the ground system, some will flow at each of
those separate ground points. And the
way it was brought up here, kind of implied that connecting the well
pipe would be a violation. But CL never addressed that, which was the
actual question.

I dont think I have ever seen a well casing used as a ground, but it's
probably one of the best grounds someone could have. But it needs some
sort of attachment welded to the pipe to connect the wire, since most
casings are just plain pipe.

My well is a steel casing, but its not used as a ground. It's about 200
feet from my house, but near my garage, but the garage has no water
pipes. But all my pipes are underground poly-plastic, right up to the
house. Inside the house, the original pipes were copper and they were
grounded, but they are no longer used since I've changed to CPVC pipes.
And the drain pipes were always PVC. The remaining copper pipes which
froze one too many times before I lived here, still exist underneath the
house, so they are still grounded.


The idea started when simply connecting to the metal water pipe picked
up the well casing. Plastic made that moot and I doubt anyone has used
a metal well casing in years. they all seem to be PVC.
They do make pipe clamps that will work though if you have metal and
want to use it.
That far away I would not call it "available".

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 6:49:25 PM UTC-5, wrote:
by. The 10ga wire to the 3 foot copper nail the sat company uses is a
joke if you are worried about lightning.

10 ga is plenty for lightning, the wave form is a damped sinusoid.

Now, a bolted fault from the power line would be a different story!

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 11:05:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 04:37:17 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 8:25:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:23:15 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


Taken literally, that would imply that the well should not be connected
to the grounding system. And also that only one ground rod should be used.
The question was if the well pipe should also be part of the grounding system
and NEC says "yes".

I have not read the NEC code in years and dont have a current book, but
even in the 90's they required at least 2 ground rods. Some areas are
different, this depends on soil conditions, and local codes too. So
requiring 3 or more rods is possible.

More ground rods, or a well casing, or any other metal contacting the
soil just adds to the "system". When it comes to grounding, MORE IS
BETTER. Just as long as they all go to the ground buss (bar) inside the
main breaker panel.

Like someone else said, yes, gas pipes, phone system, cable tv lines,
and so on, all should be grounded too. Even metal siding should be.

I have worked on a trailer house (mobile home), and that came equipped
with #6 copper wire from the main breaker box, which was clamped to the
steel beam frame under the trailer. The siding was also connected to
that steel frame, as well as the phone connection box, and gas pipes,
furnace ducts, and so on. Under the trailer there were a lot of ground
wires and all of them went to that steel frame. All of this was
original, and part of the trailer when it was built in the factory
(except for the phone line ground, which was probably added by the phone
company) (this was a USED trailer). When I got the trailer, intended to
be a guest house, I ran power to it, and put in 2 ground rods, then ran
#6 copper from those rods directly to the breaker box. There was already
the wire that went to the steel frame, from the box, but rather than
clamp these wires together, I had plenty of wire to just go direct to
the box. Trailer houses are not always built as well as regular houses,
but they surely did a good job of grounding this one. (Probably required
by code when they built it).

To the OP, your electrician should have put a jumper across that hose.
You could call him back, but for the cost of 2 clamps and a foot of
wire, why bother. If you add a softener, be sure to put a jumper wire
there too. (if there are non-metal pieces that would break the
continuous ground).

I think to meet code what actually needs to happen is he needs an
uninterrupted wire from the grounding system he already has to the
pipe going to the well. As it exists now, he has a ground system
of 2 or 3 rods and that is bonded to the house water system on the
house side of a plastic pipe that separates it from the well. If
he just jumpers across that, then he doesn't have a continuous wire
to the well pipe, it's in two segements, which I don't believe is
allowed. Gfre?

You only need a continuous conductor to the primary grounding
electrode. You can connect "bonding jumpers" with any listed method as
long as each path is using the required size wire.

This is from the NEC handbook

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/250%20exibit%2031.jpg

(extra credit if you catch the absurd thing in the code) ;-)

The #2 or better for the ground ring, while everything else is #4?
Other than that, I give up.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:20:36 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:54:08 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:05:51 -0500, wrote:

You only need a continuous conductor to the primary grounding
electrode. You can connect "bonding jumpers" with any listed method as
long as each path is using the required size wire.

This is from the NEC handbook

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/250%20exibit%2031.jpg

(extra credit if you catch the absurd thing in the code) ;-)

ummm, the pic shows an Ufer ground in addition to ground rods?

You can have all the electrodes you want

Shucks. Now I have to wait and see who gets the extra credit. Best I
can tell, my house uses the Ufer ground. Haven't seen or found ground
rods.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:54:03 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 11:05:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:

(extra credit if you catch the absurd thing in the code) ;-)

The #2 or better for the ground ring, while everything else is #4?
Other than that, I give up.


We have a winner. (email me an address for your prize)

posted for all of us...



On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:54:08 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:05:51 -0500, wrote:

You only need a continuous conductor to the primary grounding
electrode. You can connect "bonding jumpers" with any listed method as
long as each path is using the required size wire.

This is from the NEC handbook

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/250%20exibit%2031.jpg

(extra credit if you catch the absurd thing in the code) ;-)

ummm, the pic shows an Ufer ground in addition to ground rods?

You can have all the electrodes you want

I need about 8 on my head and one on my willy. Would that suffice?

--
Tekkie